"Cavalry in the Hungarian Uprising 1848-49" Topic

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone had any insight into the employment of the mounted arm in the 1848-49 Hungarian Uprising. Was it more "Napoleonic" or "mid century" in flavor?

MWAN 120 has a good series of articles on the war, which I've been thumbing through, and the orders of battle include plenty of cavalry units, to include cuirassiers (on the Austrian side). There is a reference to the fact that the Hungarian hussars bested their opponents, which implies at least cavalry vs cavalry action (no indication of any successful, or otherwise, cavalry vs infantry action).

I'm imagining that in the absence of specfic information, the Crimean War would provide a close model given the chronology (and the fact that the Russians were the same army in both--providing a bridge).

Best,
Ed M

I wish I could recall where I read it but I do remember once reading something where it stated the Hungarian cavalry were far more aggressive in charging and manuvering on the flanks than their Austrian opponents.

Loved those MWAN articles too, almost enough to make me start a new collection but not quite.

Thanks, Mike,

I'm tinkering with the idea of setting a Von Reisswitz type kriegspiel in this war. Hopefully, that will not lead me down the path to a new collection of figures, too! (the temptation is there).

Ed M

Hi!

Sorry stupid question but what is MWAN?
I am Hungarian, and I have a 28mm collection of figures for this war.
The Hungarian Hussars had successes and failures both against the Austrian and Russian cavalry, they did the job. They was the only cavalry available, so they fought as a heavy cavalry as well.

Janos,

MWAN: Midwestern Wargamers Association Newsletter. A very popular amateur wargame magazine here in the US that is no longer published. However, a good number of them are available for download at Wargame Vault (if you're curious):

link

Thanks for the insight on the Hungarian Hussars. I had read that they were superior to the Austrian cavalry (of all types) in this conflict. However, there aren't many details on the actual engagements.

Given the transitional nature of the era, what I'm trying to get a sense of is the battlefield employment of cavalry in the conflict. Were there successful charges against infantry, for instance (and was that a rare thing?) or did they mainly fight other cavalry on the battlefield?

Was cavalry action more "Napoleonic" or more "Crimean" I guess I would ask?

Best,
Ed M

Thanks for the answer.

Well, HWI was a 100% Napoleonic conflict. The Hungarian army, has not got any other type of cavalry. The Napoleonic warfare is pretty much a stone-paper-scissor game, so the Hussars, did all kind of task, what is needed. Against all kind of enemy troops. They was not superior, but equal. They never could achieve that big impact, like the heavy cavalry, but did the job very well. They was motivated, so they did the "heavy jobs" as well, but they had disadvantage against the real heavy cavalry.
The Austrian army had 12 Hussar regiment, 2 was in Italy the rest moved back to Hungary (some just escaped), 6 new regiment had been organized by the new Hungarian government. Was a great effort, but the regiments never was on 100%, neither on equipment nor on uniform point of view. And of course the number of the troops was less than the paper form.

The Hussars are a national symbols in Hungary, since this war they are the symbol of the Heroic Hungarian Soldier and the National freedom as well.

Best,
Janos

Photos about my figures: link

Hi again! :)

I just read the MWAN.pdf magazin, very nice and quiet accurate. Now I understand your questions, its based on that article. Some point I think is misleading like page 31 picture 3a, I have never seen pickelhaube style helmet in any Hungarian uniform book, and also all the borders was closed, so US and French donations was impossible. The USA supported the Hungarian refuges after the war, that's true. Also we had several hundred ex honved who fought on the Union side later. Like Zagony ex Hussar captain, who did the famous death charge (Springfield), or Julius Stahel major general of the Union Army, later US consul in China and Japan, and owner of the Medal of Honour.

Janos,

I just had a look at your figures: well done! I suggest that anyone who hasn't seen these give yourself a treat and check them out:

Best,
Ed M

What figures did you use..?

Well.

My focus is on the early southern front against the Serbs.
Napoleonic Austrian Grenz infantry is good for the Serbians, and also for the Hungarians. 2 Grenz regiment Szekely regiment was Hungarian( pink signs ) , and 2-3 was Serbian( Yellow signs ) , so perty much these figuras are good for each side, with different Flags. Serbians had irregulars, from the other side of the border ( Serbians who lived under Turkish rule ) , Perry miniatures, Sudan range Bashi-Bazouk figures are perfect, but no cavalry. They used fast waggons, like later motorized infantry, Serbs never had own cavalry. You can use ACW zuave figures as well, but no bacpack, and no bayonet, nomarly they had yatagan, 2 pistol, and an old musket.
Napoleonic Late Austrian army Hungarian infantry figures are good for both side as well. Some regiment was on Hungarian side, some not. The Austrian-German infantry figures are not good! The Napoleonic Austrian Hussar figures are good for the Hungarian cavalry. The others are good for Austrian cavalry.
For the Home Guard infantry, I used ACW frock coat figures, from the Redoubt Miniatures, but with different shako heads. The Polish legion is the same, just with Czapka heads. The heads are handmade. Artilery crew is the same, ACW frock coat figures with shako head.
If somebody want to play the Transylvanian front, the Crimean Russian army is perfect, except heavy cavalry, they just not sent heavy cavalry against Hungary.

For the uniforms: link

Best,

Janos

Hi Janos

This has been one of my longer term projects, since i visited Budapest military museum and saw some of the paintings and models from that period.

I have got the Caliver book which looks good. Would be interested in a Hungarian view on its accuracy?

cheers

Hi John the Red!

I saw that book, but just on Salute, for 5 minute. Would be nice to read, maybe from my next month budget I will buy. The focus was a bit missed, based on the colored pictures. I mean with a limited space for uniform pictures, one uniform was, the planed Romanian legion (nothing wrong with that, just was never fought on the field), and one was the Italian legion, also not very important unit. Colorful, interesting, and internationals, but for a wargamer just a top of the cake. The pictures looked accurate so far. As I said I had 5 minutes to check.
To be honest, we have only one book in my language with two edition about, the Hungarian army 1848-49, this book is based on 10 years active search and research. After this war, Hungary was under Austrian terror for 18 years, the royalist secret service and police destroyed every sign of the revolution, uniforms, papers etc. So the studies about the uniforms are based on limited real uniforms, and mainly info bits and pieces from letters and diary texts.
The English Caliver book must be based on this Hungarian book, because nothing else available, quiet small chance to be wrong, if the translation is accurate, and the draws are the copy of the Hungarians. :)

edmuel2000,

Don't know if you can get it in the States but there's a book by Hermann Robert entitled '1848-1849: A szbadsagharc tortenete' and there is also another book by him that covers the specific battles of the 1848 conflict – 'Az 1848-1849-es szabadsagharc nagy csatai' that covers the use of cavalry [some awesome pics in this book as well].

These books should give you a wonderful overview of not only the war itself but the use of hussars and other cavalry raised by the Hungarians [Polish lancers and a unit of chevaulegers or some such – not in Poland, so don't have my books at hand].

Janos – admire your work! Would love to get around to doing something similar in 15mm – if I can ever get the time! I've actually developed a figure listing for using 15mm figures but your explanations of the figures you're using mean that I need to go back and redo that list. Thanks for the info.

You Welcome!

In 15mm I think the ACW frock coat infantry in kepi is good as a Hungarian infantry. Because of the size, the details much smaller. The elite Honved Battalions, had very similar hat, the red kepi style hat was the sign of the bravery, if the unit is retreated without order, they lost the privilege to having red hat. The shako was the basic hat, the elit had red kepi. So blue or grey trousers with brown frock coat and red kepi, is OK in 15mm. Also because of the shortages, one Home Guard battalion is dressed also like pretty much an ACW frock coat infantrymen in kepi, just the hole uniform was dark blue, trousers, frock coat and kepi all blue.

I just start working on the new Perry figures, six hussars is just arrived, next month I will order Grenz blisters from the Napoleonic Austrian range. Half of my Grenz infantry will be with pink signs, the other half is with yellow, and every unit will have 2 standard bearer, one with Austrian, one with Hungarian flag. If I need I can use them in both side, but normally the pink is the Hungarian, the yellow is the Austrian/Serbian/Croatian.

Does the article on uniforms in MWAN 120 have info on Austrian, Russian, Serb, Croat uniforms as well as those of independent Hungary?

Hi. Coming late to this Hungarian fest. As the author of those articles--yes, there was another spat of information in MWAN #123. That is the 17th Bocskai Hussars on the cover.

FYI: Chris Pringle has collected great information in several battle scenarios which are free on the Big Bloody Battles List:

link

Bill Gray has collected a wide variety of sources for the Hungarian War which he has archived at:
link

He will be making it available free once his scenario book on the war is published. Most everything is available on line, many primary sources from google for free.

As for uniforms, I highly recommend Gyozo Somogyi's book in English The Honved Army 1848-1849. It has the Austrian infantry Uniforms and the Croat/Border Infantry uniforms too.

link

Any other uniform information on the Austrians during this period is available from Osprey, an infantry and cavalry book. In reality, the uniforms changed very little between 1815 and 1848.

John the Red:

The Cavilier book is fine with the uniforms, but incomplete, unlike the Somogyi book, which the uniform pictures were taken from. Some of the statements about organization and such are suspect, but as I don't know the source, I can't say for sure.

The Southern fighting against the Serbs was far more a guerrilla war with small formal battles. The Serbs were mostly in native garb…no uniforms. The Serbian Army did join in, if in a small way. Lots of variety in clothing, which makes for interesting figures. Hungarians in the South were more militia-like uniforms, and a wide variety of them.

Hope that helps.

The question about the Hungarian Militia with the pickelhaube style helmet is from Knotel's Uniforms of the World book. I finally discovered that the helmet was worn by some policemen when they joined the Militia, but they were rare and certainly not militia-wide as I wrote, quoting Knotel. Mea Culpa.

Was cavalry action more "Napoleonic" or more "Crimean" I guess I would ask?

I have no idea what you mean by this. The tactics and formations the Heavy Brigade used at Balaclava, as well as the Russians were the same as the Napoleonic wars.

About the Hungarian Hussars' quality compared to the Austrians:

The Hungarian Hussars had several things going for them which the Austrians didn't:

1. They were fighting for their homeland.
2. Hungary was the Horse-producing area of the Austrian Empire. Better horses were available in abundance and far more men were acquainted with riding, particularly the kind needed for light cavalry. There were many fine horsemen, important when moving horses in mass.
3. Hussars were a Hungarian creation. They were a tradition and as an effective fighting force, considered one of the 'elite' of the Austrian cavalry before the war. That is why every other nation copied them.
4. As the war progressed the Hussars gained a fierce-some reputation which intimidated opponents.
5. The Hussars were used by the Hungarians as a shock force. They were also excellent skirmishers and dominated the Austrian light cavalry. Some Hungarians employed a short whip to pull riders off their mounts.

At Isszag, the Hungarian Hussars took on a division of Austrian Cuirassiers and after a long fight bested them.

At Korarom/Acs July 11th, 1849 a mass charge by the Hussars drove back both Austrian infantry and cavalry, the Austrian left flank only being saved by the intervention of the Russian 9th Division.

While armed as light cavalry, I would have the arm generally regarded as elite save some individual regiments. The Croats raised a Hussar Regiment, the Ban Hussars. When they met the Hungarian hussars, there was no contest. There is a painting of the encounter--the Ban Hussars are running away to the right.

As far as I can tell, The red kepis/caps were won by only three units:

The Baja Militia
The 9th "Red Caps" Honved Battalion [It was an elite batn]
Some artillery batteries

Most all caps were either a medium blue or white.

Hello, Bill, thank you for your articles in MWAN. I've them both and now working on some briefs for Steve Barber to sculpt some Croats for Jellacic's Army.I feel the Austrians need some attention and especially Jellacic's army composition.

I hope you can answer a few questions. Please find below.

My biggest bugbear was the Ban Croat Hussar and how different he is from his opponent. You mention a 1836 Bell type type shako they wore. All other dress the same.

Can you explain further your description of the Ban Croat page 31 Para 4, sub para 4b please. I would like to get him sculpt at some point in the future.

Steve Barber Models is releasing over the next few weeks a numbers of packs for the Hungarian Up-Rising.

John, from Hungary, was kind enough to send me this book that has been released quite recently:

Cheers,

Helen
AKA Grey Heron

Can you explain further your description of the Ban Croat page 31 Para 4, sub para 4b please.

Hey Helen:

I am not sure what you are specifically looking for. The picture above shows the Uniform of the Ban Hussars clearly--and surprisingly accurate, particularly the one in the front right with the round eyes. The dolman under the Pelisse is the same color and cording.

What more do you need beyond that picture?

McLaddie

Hi Bill,

Okay, I see what you mean. It looks to me like an unusual coat, but then I have seen alot of unusual coats.The coat of the Ban Croat with the sash wrapped around. Is it a military coat or civilian? Piping etc? Everything else okay.

As for the Hussar, I'm okay with the description now since looking at the illustration above.

Thanks for your time.

GH

The 'sash' is the barrel sash that the Austrian Hussars wore. Alternating yellow and black wide vertical stripes.

The coat is simply the fur-lined pelisse worn over the dolman so the fur cuffs and collar are what you see…standard pelisse cut and style…it was cold that winter. The cording and such is standard Hussar cording for the Austrians…yellow and black.

Hi Bill,

Okay, no problems with the Banerial Croat Hussar Uniform, thank you.

As you can see below with your illustration the (4b) Croat soldiers jacket. Does he have any piping that you are aware of?

I'll get Steve to give him a leather belts over both shoulders to provide for box cartridge and bayonet scabbard.

Cheers,

GH

Here is 4a without pack and scabbard.

Cheers,

GH

What the Croat soldier is wearing is an overcoat with regimental colors on the collar tabs. The uniform coat was the brown Grenz/border coat for the Austrian Army… The coat was often used when the Croat infantry didn't have the uniform, which is what 'b' shows: A Croat infantry man [usually recruited or home battalions added to the Austrian army] with makeshift uniforms, often from old style army caste-offs.

The Croat figure is very well done. Lots of character.

Thank you Bill. I'll look forward in Steve weaving some magic for the Croat.

Best regards,

GH

Someone asked about the 'Serbian' uniforms. The figure 'c' is as close to a uniform as it got for the Serbs, though that style was wide spread and the tasseled cap was near-universally red.

link

Here are the Serbian infantry uniforms during that period:

link

Here is the Serbian national flag during that period:

link

Thanks Bill, great illustrations on the Serbs.

Best regards,

GH

GH:

I finally found a picture of my Banial Hussars.

link

Thank you Bill. They look great.

Cheers,

GH

TK writes:

Hi,

Honved Miniatures has a 15mm range for the 1848-49 war.

I painted the Honvéd Miniatures HM-1516 set. It is 15mm Hungarian Honvéd infantry in field cap.

You can buy this set in the Hagen webshop here:
link

Bye,
TK