"My suggestions to the BOD for next year" Topic

I did not attend the convention so I can not make a judgement based on personal experience. However, I have to say that all of the scuttlebut about the noise gives me pause as to whether I would want to drive 1,100 miles to put on several games at next year's Historicon.

As much as I don't like the current location and the BoD – I wouldn't let the noise stop you. You have some beautiful figures that should really be showcased in a in really nice game. Having painted the lot I got from you (they made a VERY nice gift to a friend of mine) I can say with confidence the pictures do not do them justice.

Actually comparing Origins, Gencon, Historicon(in its current venue) AS FAR AS THE LARGER MINIATURE GAMING AREA is apples to apples.

I have attended all three every year for about the past ten years and I can tell you from actual experience that they are virtualy identical in every PHYSICAL aspect.

I can also tell you that a bunch of people had a really great time this year. What they need to do is work on some issues and lock it in for about 6 years. People do not like change and the simple fact of the show being moved several times has done far more to hurt attendance than the actual locations themselves.

And as far as some people metioning how expensive this new venue was- is that factual or speculation? The rumor amongst several vendors was that this venue cost 1/2 what Valley Forge charged and they were aggrivated that we still paid the higher prices as vendors.

fox x 3

Origins is a general gaming convention, whereas HMGS supposedly caters to historical gaming. They are not the same, though some would like to make HMGS into Origins. I prefer the historical bent myself, and have been told by those that attended Origins it was not as good as Hcon if you prefer historical games and dealers. I'll take their word for it.

My mouth is agape at you questioning the costs. The numbers taken straight from HMGS approved budgets. If you are a member then look for yourself. Comparing VFCC (which was bigger and in the middle of a huge metro area) to FCC is indeed apples to watermellon. You are consistent, I'll give you that. :-)

The costs are higher at FCC because it costs twice as much as the Host, but about the same as the discounted VFCC last year. Again, money doesn't grow on trees and someone has to pay for these places. The fact more burden has been placed on the dealers is in part why fewer are attending – it isn't worth the cost at some point. I suspect that trend will continue as internet sales grow even more.

historygamer- I am going to need you to focus very carefully and actually pay attention to what I wrote- below is exactly what I wrote- NEVER ONCE saying that the three shows are the same- JUST THE MINIATURE GAMING AREAS!!!

1st post-
"Strange- somehow Origins draws over 10,000 and Gencon almost 40,000 in what is exactly the same situation for the miniature gaming. Not all of the gaming but definitely the miniature gaming. Giant room- no carpet, no banners hanging from ceiling."

2nd post-
"Actually comparing Origins, Gencon, Historicon(in its current venue) AS FAR AS THE LARGER MINIATURE GAMING AREA is apples to apples."

At no point do I need to be told the differences in the shows or the attendees. I promise you I go to more shows every year than you ever have.

Also-despite the higher cost-There was a great selection of dealers to shop from at this years shows. More than you will ever see at your beloved Host Fall In Show. As a matter of fact I am skipping Fall In this year as a vendor.
Sales vs cost just not worth the effort.

As far as your knowledge of internet sales vs show sales and the future trends hurting our shows sales- I would not count on it. There will always be a percentage of people who like to go to the big shows and physically shop a vendor hall. I am speaking to you from a company with over 40 years experience in the industry, but I am sure you will tell me how I am wrong.

fox:

Your coming off there a little hostile there buddy. I don't doubt your attendance at other cons, but those facilities really aren't relevant in this discussion as my points were more on the costs vs attendance which you skipped altogether. The complaints on this facility weren't mine, and I am only pointing out they will likely cost use more to fix.

My surprise was at your questioning the numbers, which I said early on were from HMGS, which you did not address in your reply. Two of my three paragraphs addressed that, but you chose to ignore that in your response, instead focusing on venue facilities, not costs or attendance – my two points.

Now you are putting words in my mouth about my "beloved Host fall in show." In fact, I don't really even recall mentioning FI regarding Hcon, so I am not sure why you brought it up, or how it is relevant in a discussion about Hcon.

I will be at FI this year, as I am sure many others will since it is finally off Halloween weekend. I'm sure it will do better than in recent years, and given the lower cost at the Host, it should do okay. Perhaps you think it should be elsewhere? I would have been at Hcon this year if my vacation plans hadn't conflicted. I will attend next year.

I support all HMGS shows when I can. Questioning the costs of this facility is hardly disloyal, and I can assure you I have given a lot more volunteer hours to HMGS than you, but no doubt you'll tell me I don't understand what I am talking about regarding HMGS finances, though I served as the second longest member of the FOC.

As far as internet sales, I'm only going by what other dealers have said. I'll let you debate with them their wisdom, but don't kill the messenger just because you don't like the message. I would point out you yourself have told us you won't be attending FI, so I assume there is a financial decision there somewhere. Or, you just hate my "beloved Host" – which I said was a dump sometime ago. But by gosh, it is our dump, well priced, and apparently well located to turn out a good number of attendees. :-)

Whatever happens I wish our dealers and organization success. :-)

The cost of space at VFCC, $42,400. USD
The cost of space at FEC, $23,000. USD
The Host is significantly less (IIRC ~10K last time it was the venue for Historicon 4 years ago).

The first two numbers are directly from the financial documents.

And, of course, VFCC is a casino now. And all the space necessary wasn't available the last few years at the Host during the month of July.

And the BoD is ecstatic at how much the FEC wanted to work with Historicon. The shuttle bus was included gratis, for example. We'll see if they can address the problems we experienced this year.

I hope we can. :-)

Has anyone seen the new casino there? I did when I went to the MFCA show there this spring. If you weren't staying at the hotels you had to buy a pass to get in.

You know, we probably shouldn't be bandying about the actual dollar amounts of the conventions on TMP – I'd suggest if we want to continue the discussion it be taken to HMGS. This is confidential info. My apologies for contributing to that.

But one thing to note – that isn't the only numbers that matter.

From what I can tell, there's 2 major numbers that impact the dollar values for the convention space. The table rentals appear to be about the same no matter the venue.

One, the cost for the rental.
Two, commissions the cons receive for renting the hotel rooms in the area. To find the real cost of rental, this should be subtracted from the cost, as its revenue for the con.

Taking that into account, the Host does far less well – it looks like the really low number of the rental is because they don't offer ANY commission.

The budget for 2012 has the cost of rental – revenue brought in with the FEC being very competitive if not better than the Host.

So if you include that aspect, the cost to run the con, the costs go:

BCC
VFCC
Host/FEC

Fredericksburg is at least as inexpensive, not more expensive. Go check the financials if you don't believe me.

So in the first few years of the con, the Host made a lot of sense, as there was no initial overhead. I'd assume commissions function as a rebate of sorts, so you need the $$$ up front to get those. But at this stage, FEC is the least expensive overall.

They still need to solve the noise levels. That was a big problem for many, including myself, and I'd say everyone recognizes it as the #1 problem for the site, whether a) it impacts them directly or b) its at a level they would not attend because of.

The con staff certainly seems aware of it.

I'm sure they are also aware of the basic accounting I just laid out, so perhaps they are a bit more on the ball than some people here are giving them credit for. :)

Thank you Demiurgex :)

If you could get all the people who attend in Lancaster to go to FCC, I wouldn't have any major issues (it's be nice if they'd clean the bathrooms at least once during the weekend). The drive's longer, but it's not that big a deal.

You can argue they should have come, that they're all babies and whiners and saboteurs and whatever other nasty names you want, but the fact is they didn't come. I did come, and while I had fun, I enjoyed it less because of the absence of so many friends I only see at these conventions.

We're still waiting for official attendance numbers, but there were significantly fewer games offered. I can't back this up with statistical proof, but it seemed like there were an awful lot of cancellations too. I had three games cancelled. That may be bad luck, but I have heard others talking about it too.

Demi,

I think it's a little early to assume that FCC's costs are as low as the Host's. You are counting on some serious numbers from commissions we don't even know HMGS is getting.

The three on site hotels were filled to capacity – that's 75% of the commissions rate there, per the corporate treasurer. Check the HGMS forum if you don't believe me.

There's anecdotal evidence both ways concerning hotel bookings elsewhere.

Preregistration $$$ were up 11-12% from last year at VFHH, again per the treasurer.

I think that's pretty good reason to think revenues are going to be strong.

We'll see about expenses – could be mistakes were made and the costs were up.

Let's face it – your 900 people not here may be fact – but it was fact when the con was last run in Pennsylvania too. Most of your 'attendance was low' is completely anecdotal.

The numbers should be out in a week or so. We'll see what we'll see.

But I'd be very surprised if the con didn't make a decent profit.

"You know, we probably shouldn't be bandying about the actual dollar amounts of the conventions on TMP – I'd suggest if we want to continue the discussion it be taken to HMGS. This is confidential info. My apologies for contributing to that."
Actually, as a section 501c3 our financal statements must be made available to the public. The IRS requires us to file a yearly form IRS 990, copies of which are posted in our files section on the forum. You can see its pretty much a rehash of our Dec $ statements. So no harm done.

Kevin

PS it's gonna take more then a week for HCON finals, the hotels are given 30 days to do their room reconciliation.

Could pre reg $$$$'s be up because GM's had to pay if they were not HMGS members?

Honestly, there is some good discussion here. Whatever everyone's intent, the numbers are now more the focus and I think that is a good thing. I peaked at some of Kevin's analysis and he is very much on top of this stuff. I feel a lot better now that I know he is doing such analysis. :-)

"Let's face it – your 900 people not here may be fact – but it was fact when the con was last run in Pennsylvania too. Most of your 'attendance was low' is completely anecdotal."

Not sure what you are saying there. My point is simply that a lot of people were lost by the move, and I think the numbers are pretty irrefutable.

FYI, I never argued the convention will be a financial disaster. If I had to guess, I'd say it will be profitable. I even think last year was, with the higher cost structure of VFCC. But they've raised the costs for the dealers a lot over the last three years. It would be interesting to see a comparison based on 2009-type charges to participants. There has been very little inflation in the last three years. I wonder what the results would be with dealers paying what they paid in 2009.

I can tell you that several people(at the show) said the number going around for pre-reg was up about 18% from last year.

I also talked to an instructor in the painting university who felt like they had great numbers.

What did feel strange was there was never the feel of the one day Saturday rush in the dealer hall(my opinion). My sales also reflected it- I sold virtually the same amount Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Never had that happen at any show.

Sure looked like the flea market killed on Saturday(my opinion).

I also think we gained in new people close to what we lost in regulars. One of the groups we as a company heavily support is the battletech group and they saw a very good increase in new attendees which = a 25% increase in our sales of Battletech product vs. last year.