"My suggestions to the BOD for next year" Topic

Disclaimer:
I am not a member of HMGS so my opinion is worth about the same as the effluvia on the floors of the FCC. However I am given to the opinion, as expressed by some on here, that member's opinions may be valued by the BoD as highly.

From what I can gather Historicon 2012 was a fun gathering and successful from the gaming enjoyment side. Whether it is successful form the financial aspect remains to be seen. However some issues should be taken up with the convention center staff NOW in preparation for next year's con.

Housecleaning needs to be addressed and that aspect should cost HMGS nada. If the FCC can't adjust their schedules of their housecleaning staff to cover the additional usage then move on for 2014.

Noise abatement is an issue that may cost HMGS. Every convention center is going to have a set charge for every little thing. Find out what those charges are NOW and decide quickly if the benefit is worth it.

Treat this like a baseball player entering his so called contract year. The player (the FCC)needs to perform well if they expect to get the big bucks. Likewise the FCC needs to step up their game if they want to see HMGS in the future. Here is an interesting little link PDF link to an economic impact assessment done for the city of Fredericksburg. They were antiicipating the city would see $26,000 USD in direct taxes and an impact of over $1,000,000 USD each year. This is good info to have on hand as you negotiate with both the FCC and other venues.

Don't be afraid to ask for the moon. All they can do is say now. Talk to the Host about future dates. Have backup plans. As the old saying goes, "Trust in Allah, but always tie your camel"

But the key part is start NOW! Do not rest on any laurels yet. And it really would be nice to have just a drop more transparancy to the members in the proces.

I am getting my room for next year and starting to salt away the cash. Hope to see you there.

Good advice, and appreciate the research on the impact assessment. Noise abatement is the big issue. If that can be addressed satisfactorily while still running a profitable con, I'd be happy to have it at the FEC. If not, time to move on.

However, I think one of the things hurting attendance is the travelling road show. They need to get a stable venue, somewhere in the midatlantic region, and keep it there for several years.

Well said.
VR
James Mattes

However, I think one of the things hurting attendance is the travelling road show. They need to get a stable venue, somewhere in the midatlantic region, and keep it there for several years.

I agree whole heartedly. I frequent two types of conferences regularly for my professional duties. The first meets in the same city every year. The other type rotate but the rotation is set a decade out so everyone can plan. I would think that a convention this size could find a home long term.

Transparency.

Waco Joe,

All good suggestions! The HMGS Member forum is pretty active with questions/concerns/comments like yours with responding answers. It's not like the "Panzeri Days" on that forum anymore. So if others reading this are members and not on that forum it might be a good idea to join up to check it out at least.

Good comment on solving noise (din) problem. I recall that HMGS put up multi thousands of dollars to get air conditioning in some parts of the Host. Perhaps similar action here. Or divide the big pit into several sections, there must be room dividers. Put more non-gaming things into the pit, and use the smaller rooms for gaming.

Given that noise level, I could not put on a game there again. But what is the loss of one GM, I only did 3 games, anyway.

The loss of a single GM is important, at least it seemed to be the case when I talked to Bill Rutherford last Sunday about the noise and table layout options for next year from my GM perspective. From that I know he cares about GMs and seemed excited to be working on the solutions for next year as it relates to event management.

Hey Bob – sorry, I forgot it was specifically you as the source, but I forwarded your suggestion of moving the painting university to the main gaming area to reduce noise and use the other area for gaming on the HMGS yahoo group. No comment on the suggestion yet. If you are a member I'd recommend posting your concerns as well.

I agree, the noise is a major factor and needs to be addressed to continue the con at that location.

but I forwarded your suggestion of moving the painting university to the main gaming area to reduce noise and use the other area for gaming on the HMGS yahoo group.

The Hobby U was in a corridor beside the ballroom. In that space you might fit 6 gaming tables. There were 90 game tables, plus tournaments, in the Sonic Assault Chamber. Moving 6 tables won't help much.

Duncan

Duncan – agreed. However, that wasn't intended as a comprehensive solution, only one possible consideration in a broader package. If 5 changes are made that each drop noise by 4%, that will be a significant overall gain (at least IMO).

As to what if anything they do, guess we'll see.

I think one of the side areas was for open gaming, move that to the main hall.

And advertise any noise abatement changes made here on TMP and elsewhere.

Waco Joe, Damn good advice, all.

why not try the hanging banners like the ones seen in sports arenas and B-ball games. Much of their purpose is to provide noise abatement and a bit of advertising space to boot.

The HMGS Member forum is pretty active with questions/concerns/comments like yours with responding answers. It's not like the "Panzeri Days" on that forum anymore. So if others reading this are members and not on that forum it might be a good idea to join up to check it out at least.

Maybe someone from the HMGS board should answer questions and address comments here on TMP, where there are more eyeballs. They really need to nip in the bud this perception that the FCC hall is too noisy before it becomes a reality in the minds of the gaming public.

I did not attend the convention so I can not make a judgement based on personal experience. However, I have to say that all of the scuttlebut about the noise gives me pause as to whether I would want to drive 1,100 miles to put on several games at next year's Historicon.

I would like to see someone on the BoD post a thread that says, "we hear you, we understand the problem, and here is what we intend to do about it."

Is that too difficult a thing to ask?

Considering the small number of frequently posting and whiney types that would crap all over such a statement burying it in a 100+ such posts I think it is a difficult thing to ask.

While the hallway used for the Hobby University classes and Paint and Take program was quieter and had excellent light, moving those two programs to the gaming hall or smaller ballrooms would not be feasible. While I hate gaming in a noisy environment, there is no way I could give two or three hour and a half long lectures a day in a noisy hall. The lighting issue would also be addressed with HMGS spending bajillions to have lighting installed into the venue.

While six game tables could be put into the space(as suggested) we managed to include seven classrooms and a huge paint and take that filled to capacity several times each day.

I do understand that Historicon is a "gaming" convention and that learning has nothing to do with "gaming" and could be removed from the program, but why not remove the vendors first? They used up a huge amount of space and they weren't even running demo games. If we spread all the gaming tables between the two major halls, the noise should be reduced considerably. Also, remove the bathrooms. Nobody goes to a gaming convention to urinate, they can do that at home whenever they want.

No point in moving Hobby University for the reasons listed above. I can tell you no volunteers will teach a class in the main hall without expensive lighting and wall divider, which includes me. I think some type of wall divide will dampen the noise to a tolerable level for gaming. I admit that I ran a game Friday night and I really could not hear people from across the table.

Joey

They really need to nip in the bud this perception that the FCC hall is too noisy before it becomes a reality in the minds of the gaming public.

It's not perception. It's noisy as hell in there. Hard Floor, hard walls and hard ceilings bounce noise. That is not perception, it's fact.

Cheers, Xin

"They really need to nip in the bud this perception that the FCC hall is too noisy before it becomes a reality in the minds of the gaming public. "

That is right in the BOD's core competency. 1984-like newspeak. It wasn't really noisy…just a nasty rumor started by reactionaries who want to drive the convention back to the Host and set up back 50 years.

Noise is my #1 Complaint. Fix that and my B rating goes to an A.

It wasn't really noisy…just a nasty rumor started by reactionaries who want to drive the convention back to the Host and set up back 50 years.

Um, that wasn't the way I meant it to sound, I was actually supporting your position that it was noisy and therefore the BoD must make visible, tangible efforts to show that they hear the complaints and are going to fix the problem.

Better?

Fritz,

I couldn't agree with you more. Sadly, I've seen nothing to convince me the BOD cares what anyone thinks.

My biggest gripe was the heat. I was pretty much gaming in the tournament area the whole weekend. When we would start a new set of games the heat seemed to spike in the area. For the ACW gamers, recreating the Dismal Swamp might have been a bonus but for me it sucked. I should have complained. Was the AC on the fritz? Cost savings by not turning down thermostat?

> My biggest gripe was the heat. I was pretty much gaming in the tournament area the whole weekend

That is close to where the flea market is, perhaps some doors were open for them to load and unload? I did notice it was often hotter down that way.

Stephens123, did you mention the AC issue it to a "red badge" while at the convention? I sniffed out higher convention staff (the names in the program) and some BoD to tell them of my concerns. All of them acknowledged them or in the case of Bill Rutherford outright fixed it on the spot. I did notice the back end was warm on Thursday Thursday but I wasn't back there after after that. The front of the hall was fine regarding the temperature both Friday and Saturday when I was gaming up that way. Contact the convention director and let him know your concerns if you haven't already since posting.

I'm concerned that civil disobedience only waited until post 20 to start The haters that follow those posts haven't latched on and followed through with their part yet. Slackers…

Could someone perhaps check the square footage of the FCC and compare it to the Host? Reason being, if we are going to any new facility (forget FCC for a minute), but it isn't any bigger, that makes no sense – especially if we have to pay a lot more (unless the facility is that much nicer).

I suspect the only fix for noise at any civic center type facility is carpeting to stop the bounce from the hard floor to the high ceilings. My friend who did attend the FCC con laughed when I mentioned banners as he thought it was completely unrealistic. I'll take his word for that since he was there.

I think Waco Joe's comments are spot on.

Well done, sir. :-)

historygamer,
I took this information from the venue websites:
Host:
Carpeted areas [excluding the ballroom hallway, corridor outside Paradise room and Fireplace area] 25,382 SF.
Non carpeted areas [including Expo and Lampeter] 41,040 SF.
These areas do not include the Lancaster showroom, which is probably an additional 20,000 SF of carpeted area.
There are 319 guestrooms.
Parking: Anywhere between 600 and 1000.

FCC:
Carpeted areas 11,945 SF.
Non carpeted areas 80,000 SF.
There are 421 hotel rooms in close proximity.
Parking: 1200 spaces, not including those associated with hotels.

npm

The Wegmans near where I live has (believe it or not) spray-on foam of some kind on the ceiling which I believe is both an insulation and a noise abatement measure. (Fredericksburg location may have that too, I didn't notice.) Carpeting the entire hall might be cost-prohibitive for the FCC at the current time, but it is something they should look into as it would greatly increase the number and types of shows/events that they could host. Same with the chairs. I consider the folding chairs an inexpensive "fix" that they were able to implement quickly, but the heavier padded chairs in the smaller rooms are what they should be aiming for for the entire facility.

Here is my comparison

Host:
Nice dark rooms with mildew smell: 25,382 SF.
Duct Tape: yes
Breakfast with room: No
Dozens of historical sites nearby: Only old Amish men

FCC:

Nice dark rooms with mildew smell: No
Duct Tape: No
Breakfast with room: Yes
Dozens of historical sites nearby: Yes

Ligniere:

By my quick calculations, the Host has 86,422sq feet(I believe it is more than that having worked with con staff over the years, closer to 100L sq ft), and the FCC has 91,946 sq feet.

Even taking this at face value, that means FCC only has 6k sq feet more for twice the price. That means there is very little room to grow.

firstvarty1979:

Each fix has more costs. So what is the tipping point where the fixing costs outweigh the benefits, given the costs of the place already, and its relative size to the Host? Just asking. :-)

Having been a big fan of the conventions at Gettysburg, let me just say that not everyone views surrounding attractions as a plus to a convention. If you are out touring, you aren't at the convention, you aren't playing games, and you aren't spending money. Some felt the upside to the Host was that families could go do family stuff (Dutch Wonderland, Amish tours, outlet shopping, hotel pool, etc) while dad played his odd little hobby stuff – and everyone was happy. I'm just saying, the surrounding historic attractions cut both ways, as the intent of any HMGS con is to have you there as much as possible. Cause, they love you. :-)

"I'm concerned that civil disobedience only waited until post 20 to start troll The haters that follow those posts haven't latched on and followed through with their part yet. Slackers…"

It's nice that you can rely on a snotty remark being made whenever you criticize the BOD or anything to do with the move. Much appreciated – it's nice to have some things you can count on. I think some of the people so quick to throw the word "hater" around could use a mirror. Just saying…

For the record, my comment referred to BOD conduct over the last four years, and I think it is extremely fair. They certainly didn't listen to anyone when they were trying to muscle the convention to Baltimore, did they?

> They certainly didn't listen to anyone when they were trying to muscle the convention to Baltimore, did they?

I'm just wondering – how many years (and moves) will it be before the statute of limitations applies to that fiasco?

IAdmiral is way out of line…no one is bitching for bitching sake but pointing out facts that should be addressed. The convention should be looked at as if it was a business. If the costs aren't right,problems that cannot be overcome and the convention is losing money than another venue should be looked at.
No one is a "Hater" Just folks who have supported this convention for many years(myself for close to 30) who were disappointed the convention was held at such a great distance from the Host.

Strange- somehow Origins draws over 10,000 and Gencon almost 40,000 in what is exactly the same situation for the miniature gaming. Not all of the gaming but definitely the miniature gaming. Giant room- no carpet, no banners hanging from ceiling.

Now with that said I know the noise is higher than the Host and it would be great if it could be reduced- the question is can it be reduced affordably-

Banners could be hung- probably affordable on labor if it was a few large ones vs. a bunch of small ones- but I wonder what the cost of the material alone would be.

I wonder what would happen if they just ran a few rows of the curtian walls like they did in the vendor hall. Not every row- just a few. The way sound works it might make a big difference and not cost a crazy amount. Might not cost anything if HMGS played hardball about it.

DISCLAIMER BELOW :)

Yes- all factors cnsidered I liked the new venue vs the Host. So much better that for the first time I will be bringing my entire family next year. We will come early and make it 2-3 days into DC for all the great things a family can do in DC. I would never consider bringing them to Lancaster.

Our room for next year is already booked at the Hampton:)

I think it is 20 years. :-)

I thought it was a Life Sentence. Should be too, as so many of the problems that seem to have been ignored were predicted well ahead of time. At least with the FCC, the problems are more easily dealt with. Messy bathrooms, noice mitigation, and lighting are all child's play versus Union rules, parking, and unloading zones.

There were two hotels (expensive ones at that) attached to the BCC with roughly the same number of rooms as the 3 hotels in Fredericksburg and the attached two hotels in Valley Forge, yet only in F-burg is the lack of "enough" nearby hotel rooms an issue? We are NEVER going to have enough hotel rooms to provide for everyone, and even if there were, some people won't want to spend that much, and instead will look farther afield for cheaper accomodations. I think Lancaster offered that, Fredericksburg does also, most located one Interstate exit away.

Comparing Origins to Historicon is apples to watermellon. But, if such a building(concrete floors, tin structure)is such a conducive facility, then how come Timonium didn't do better? It is right on the edge of Baltimore (a very large city with a healthy gaming community), right on the light rail system, parking was okay.

I do agree with Bob Coggins about one thing – you can't measure much of what people like or dislike from TMP postings, as you could have a hundred people post one way or the other and it would mean little, as what could you really take away from that?

It really all comes down to the size and cost of the facility (and what it has to offer), and the attendance it draws.

I grant you some people don't like the Host. But it has still drawn more people than any other HMGS convention site, including FCC. Will FCC grow next year if left alone? I don't know, and neither does anyone else. I can say that it does not afford much more room than the Host, but at twice the cost. I honestly think the way to pay for a more expensive facility is to raise the price accordingly. If people like it that much, then they will pay for its costs, which apparently will include carpeting, banners, curtains, chairs and port o johns.

To be fair, when it was pointed out that the Ike was more expensive than the Host, I would have been willing to pay a few bucks more to stay there. Perhaps those that like the FCC feel the same. I sure hope so, as it seems if we do stay, and to make it more agreeable, it will need some fixes that will cost more than the basic facility.

I would point out that I would prefer a conference type facility over a civic center, but that is more expensive – though nicer.

> They certainly didn't listen to anyone when they were trying to muscle the convention to Baltimore, did they?

I'm just wondering – how many years (and moves) will it be before the statute of limitations applies to that fiasco?

Don't hold you breath. There are still guys complaining that they didn't get their way in Wally's basement.

"I'm just wondering – how many years (and moves) will it be before the statute of limitations applies to that fiasco?"

Not sure. But since we're still living through the fallout and bleeding attendance every year, it still seems relevant.

IF the move to Fredericksburg had been straight from Lancaster, then I think a lot of the questions being asked now would be more fair. But with all of that history of what has transpired over the past several years, at least we are in a better position than King Theoden found himself in at Helm's Deep. :P

How did it come to this?

"I'm just wondering – how many years (and moves) will it be before the statute of limitations applies to that fiasco?"

How about when the BoD pays the 80K back?

I think the moves were stupid, but I have to agree we do not face enslavement by the dark lord as a result. So there's a plus!

Is Obama the Dark Lord or is it Ozzie ?

I see, the "move" to Baltimore will NEVER be forgotten.

As a lesson of fiscal stupidity it should never be.

coolyork,

I get in enough trouble around here without getting into politics. I ain't biting!

I'm not sure that problem was ever fixed, so it is very possible future BODs could find themselves there yet again.

I see, the "move" to Baltimore will NEVER be forgotten.

If someone squandered 80K of your money, would you forget?