"Looking for alternative to flames of war" Topic

My friends and I have a lot of 15mm armies for fow. We are interested in a different set of rules. Perhaps a little simpler and less tournament orientated

But it needs to be able to have a game in 3 hours with several platoons of infantry per side and at least half a dozen tanks a side.

Hate blitzkrieg commander. The command roll which if failed means your command can do nothing for the turn does not work for us.

Any other suggestions?

Ta

Andy

I would suggest "I Ain't Been Shot Mum" (IABSM) from Too Fat Lardies or "Poor Bloody Infantry" (PBI) from Peter Pig. Both are company level. I have played both and enjoy both for different reasons. If you do a search on TMP I'm sure you'll find plenty of info and battle reports to see which appeals more. If forced to pick one I would go with IABSM.

Paul

Check out the Fireball Forward threads of late. They have a Yahoo Group. Admittedly, I don't know much about them.

Also, check out Mein Panzer. Great rules that allow you to drop in or not whatever level of detail you want (even the stuff you drop in is easy IMO) Not aware of any tournaments with the rules. Great set of rules!

Crossfire could be an option as well.

An alternative to Flames of War…. Let me see……… Ah yes, ….. Anything!

I'm a play tester and rulebook artist for Fireball Forward and it is just what you are looking for! Go to: fireballforward.com There is a free play test kit, labels, counters, and Quick Reference Sheet available for download. The Yahoo Group is active and any questions can be answered there (or here if you want to ask me). Good luck with your search!

You're looking for Blitzkrieg Commander II. The rules are published by Specialist Military Publishing. You can order a printed color version from their website or a black and white one from Lulu.com if you are in the States. They also sell a pdf version for 12 pounds which comes to a little less than 20 dollars.

The rules are clear. They use the command system from warmaster which allows one to actually maneuver the army somewhat instead of just lining up and marching forward. They use a system similar to warmaster for damage. I'll admit, coming to them from other more "realistic" rules such as Command Decision, this kind of damage representation seemed a little to abstract to me, at first. Thing is it actually works and works well. The eb and flow of a battle with how troops fall back, press on, etc. seems to come out and it's all subsumed in the damage system. Quite elegant.

You do have to roll a lot of d6.

Opportunity fire, air support, engineering are all in the rules. Normal size games play to conclusion in 2-3 hours.

The rules include tons of army lists so only one book is required. Twenty dollars for the pdf and not another dime for supplements ever. It's a different universe than FOW.

Definitely Google them and check out the forums on their website.

Other good candidates are Disposable Heroes and Arc of Fire. I use these for 28mm single figure based battles so I can't comment on how they work with smaller scale, multifigure bases. Disposable Heroes would likely work without any issues. Arc of Fire not so well.

BattleFront rules from Fire & Fury: link
Plays quicker, less fiddly rules.

I suspect Agis' Victory Decision can handle that, but that is just a guess based on his prior work with Battlefield Evolution: World At War and Gear Krieg.

Not out yet but…

link

Or you could give Rapid Fire a run out. That allows big and fast games.

Crossfire is a good game too, though the vehicle rules aint great… But the infantry and the concept are brill.

Crossfire is great.

PBI is one of my favourites.

Phil

I would second looking at Fireball Forward. I base this recommendation on two things: A) It's the new hotness, B) it is a direct replacement for FoW based armies from what I understand.

I would also like to point out I find this really funny:

Hate blitzkrieg commander

You're looking for Blitzkrieg Commander II.

BC II would be as "hate able" and original BC

Fireball may be interesting but rules kit is not up at the moment.

Blitzkrieg commander is not for me. I don't like the activation system

Crossfire is very clever but never dealt with tanks properly

Rapid fire did not really like the infantry rules

Iabsm and pbi are possible

To give you another example, one of our favourite rules sets is impetus a very fun set of ancients rules. Looking for ww2 I pet us. :)

Andy

Mein panzer looks interesting but does not seem very active at present. Is this still a played set of rules?

PBI is a game based on squares and your force is based about a company so normally is 2-3 plaoons of infantry, company command and support which might include vehicles. The squares sounds awkward but iis actually rally good. It is normally on a 4 x 4 foot table, but you will be pushed to make games last 3 hours, closer to 2 hours and as many under 2 as over. you would be advised to expand and enlarge the game to 600 points over a six foot tanle for games to last that long.

PBI, IABSM & crossfire are the most highly regarded of the established games and all have been around 10+ years. All deserve consideration and have good support and development.

Fireball forward had a playtest kit available which may give you a flavour and CAC also has a playtest version.

I would suggest all your guys get one or other set so you can try out each one. You should all try each of them a couple of times to see what clicks. There are a lot of very good rulsets around for ww2.

"Hate blitzkrieg commander. The command roll which if failed means your command can do nothing for the turn does not work for us."

I appreciate you dont like this ruleset, but ive got to point out that this is statement implies that you get a one shot dice roll for command, when in reality you have the option of using other command units to activate units should the orignal command unit fail its activation roll, giving you easily 3+ chances to make the roll .

As for other rules, im a big fan of Rules of Engagement, but that is generally played at platoon level with maybe 1-2 tanks max, though there is no reason why you cant up the level to meet your requirements, ive had a couple of company level games using this set and had no problems, other than it can be quite a lengthy game

Second recommendtion here for 'Battlefront: WWII' (Fire & Fury Games).

I am a fan of IABSM. But, reluctantly, this may not be the set for you. It has a card driven initiative system, with a end of turn card in the deck. What that means is that you may only get to move a few units before the turn ends. Or you may move most of them. Very much recreates the chaos and friction on a battlefield, but not what everyone wants to play.

If you are interested in battlefield command, then IABSM is a truly great set. Cheap also as a PDF download. even the print version is not that high. So you can try the PDF to see if it meets your requirements.

Much as I love to see people try the rules it is never good to pimp a set of rules that someone then does not like.

And no, I am niether an Author employee, relative or sockpuppet of the company. Just a somewhat rabid fan.

Owen

Mein panzer looks interesting but does not seem very active at present. Is this still a played set of rules?

If you're not looking for tournaments, what does it matter?

As Capt. Crunch said. Either choice, you will never go back!

blitzkrieg commander
fireball forward
PBI

Dang! I really wanted to look at Fireball Forward but they pulled the playtest kit and it won't be back up until August. Guess I'll look at something else.

I had never heard of Fireball Forward. Checked out their site, joined the Yahoo group and will be ordering a copy soon. After all one can never have too many rules.

Paul

Fireball or I Ain't Been Shot! Both can be played with FOW basing.

No one has mentioned TAC. Same scale as BKC, but compatable with FoW based infantry. Playable with 6, 15 or 20mm figures (we use all three).

Fireball guys put on great games at Hcon when I was there in 2011

@Tom Reed
Send me your email address Tom. I've got the Fireball Forward playtest set which I could send to you if you like?

Steve

Personally I think Battlefront WWII is one of the best WWII rules out there, closely followed by IABSM. Although I also have a soft spot for Rapid Fire.

I haven't played Kampfgruppe Normandy but it may be one to look at (if you can get a copy) or wait a bit and get the Battlegroup Kursk rules when they are released

Another vote for Battlefront WWII, and for smaller games IABSM3.

Bob.

I like battlefront ww2.

Battlefront WW2!

Another vote for battlefrontWW2 from fire&fury.

Stanley Steve,

I would appreciate it if you would send me a copy of the fireball forward startup kit.

email address is andy@watkins-family (dot) co (dot) uk

Sorry can't find a button to pm you?

Andy

BattleGroup Panzer Grenadier is also worth a look.

We adopted it initially for 12mm but now use it for 6mm to 20mm with no problems and it has become my clubs standard WW2 set

Here is the URL: fireballforward.com/downloads

This will give you the feel of the system, this is the demo game that was run at Historicon.

Honestly?

Write your own. Steal shamelessly from whatever rules you like, chop out what you don't and add what you want. It's the only way you'll be happy. I'm not being dismissive or panning any rule set, but we all have an idea of what our games should be like and no one else can know your own "vision."

I know for myself I played a lot of rules for Early WWII and the between the Wars era and none of them were what I wanted, so eventually I wrote my own. It works. I got the game down to a 3 to four hour time slot with a definite decision and the rules were no more than 12 pages single spaced with all charts, illustrations, and diagrams in that 12 pages. Now I'm quite happy with them and so are the guys I game with.

It's work but it's worth it.

My rules are not ones you'd like though, the emphasis is completely different, and it's way on the other end of scale. It's pitched to the player being an Army Commander where the battlefield in a book would b marked off with the Army boundaries on each edge of the table top. It's also a hex game (though the hexes are 8" across between paralell sides.

I tell people in the introduction that you can't envision the table top in my games as a bit of battlefield where the game is like a stop-action movie of something like Private Ryan or even Battle of the Bulge, but, in fact, as a REAL table-top in a Chateaux somewhere 30 miles behind the muddy bloody gassed over front you've sent your troops into, and that everyone in the room is a general or field marshall and the only colonel around takes the coffee order with the figures and tanks being moved by nattily dressed WACS with long croupier sticks, and that the only bit of the battlefield that intrudes is the slight tinkling of the chandeleir as the barrage reaches its crescendo. As I said it's also between the wars and into early WWII.

But regardless of that I've come to the point where I realize no canned rules are going to satisfy me so I wrote my own.

Fireball pulled the playtest kit because they released it several months in advance of the main rules and they want to revise it so that it's got all the updated and correct rules in it. That said, you can get enough of a feel for the game with the original kit if you get in touch with StanleySteve here and have him send you one.

Honestly, it fits the description you're looking for to a T. A couple platoons of Infantry and six or so tanks a side is easily done in less than 3 hours, and it produces fantastic games – and the scenarios that come in the main rulebook are awesome.

I played in 2 Fireball Forward games at Historicon and really enjoyed both of them.

I have crossfire, bought it years ago and was very impressed with it. Yes the vehicle rules are a bit poor and some of the ideas can fall apart, but it has some brilliant ideas in it. Arty is a very talented man, he just seems to have no interest in supporting rules after he writes them.

Used to like Armati but he abandoned it. Impetus which i love is very similar to Armati.

Thanks for the fireball link but the playtest kit has been pulled.

If anyone knows how to contact stanley steve I woudl be interested in seeing the playtest kit.

OSchmidt, I have written many rules for myself, sometimes my friends like them as well sometimes not. I can write rules I will like but don't wish to play solo so i have to persuade my friends as well.

I am actually now working on my own rules which I may try out, but if I can find a commercial set available it will be easier to sell it to my friends.

Andy

Yet another vote for Battlefront WW2, and for an even more uncomplicated set, Rapid Fire! 2.

I use my FOW minis to play "Memoir '44" games on a Hotz hex mat. I use one vehicle per hex and apply casualty rings to note hits. Works great & I rarely have to look up any rules or make any interpretations. After a couple of turns the players have a good handle on the system.

Always meant to play Command and colors ancients with minis :)

Another vote for Fireball Forward and yes I was a playtester but the game rocks and will allow you to use your Flames of War minis.

Another vote for Battlefront:WW2. Basing is compatible with FOW.
Best set I know for larger battles (up to a battalion or more a side).

IABSM3: play the era, not the rules. Proper tactics are rewarded, bad tactics get hammered. And with a GM running the cards, the game clips along at a good pace.

You might try Frank Chadwick's Command Decision or his new lower level game: Men Aganist Fire.

Would recommend my own game: Combat Command but that would be shameless.

I've played all of the above and can recommend. Not a big fan of Shot Mom though – if you don't like erratic command rules it may not be your cup of tea. Even with very experienced game masters and high ratio of game masters to players it has never clippled along in my experience.

TomT

@Capt.Kremmen

Email sent. Sorry for the delay!

I recommend BLITZKRIEG COMMANDER. Version 1 or 2. Both excellent. My group had an excellent game with them last week.

There are people who hate the idea of troops failing command rolls and not doing anything but the reality of war is that things dont always work out the way the planners wanted.

The die rolling system does look strange to some but in play its easy to pick up and averages out well on hits and failures. The 'math' behind the design is really quite good, which is why they work so well on the tabletop.

Check out my rules at combatactioncommand.com – there is a FREE download of the Infantry Rules available on the Downloads Page so you can try before you buy. Lee the author

Mein Panzer is a good rule set. I ran an infantry only game and it was pretty good. The scale is what I prefer which is one tank equals one tank and one stand equals a squad of infantry. The armor only games also flow well.

It's really in depth and covers everything you can imagin without a great deal of complexity.