"So how was Historicon and give a grade from A to F?" Topic

There are also almost a thousand attendees who have the opposite view, and who expressed it by staying home this year.

Gotta say, CD, that I think that to be a far too inflated number. Likely the total is nearer 100 or so. For HMGS that is still significant enuff that the BoD should pay some attention to it and work to stabilize the Hcon venue and work on ensuring the infrastructure is improved.

I also think that if HCon saw 2700 attendees this year – that is an outstanding turnout. I base that opinion on a few observations:
1. the economy has not yet returned to the levels it was at in 2008 (before the financial crash) and many are clsoely watching their budgets. Long trips, multiple hotel night stays and "toy" purchases are not being considered for implementation
2.miniature gaming is a niche hobby (always has been) and historical miniature gaming is a niche of that niche. The numbers of devotees are never gonna support the nirvana of con attendance routinely breaking 3000 attendees.
3. PC, Xbox, Nintendo, etc. offer gaming experiences strait outta the box that are impressive. As chip speeds increase, graphics get even better, and game engines become even more powerful, more game players are going to go that rout – it's instant gratification of the gaming urge wihtout the need to paint, base, lay out terrain, etc. and they have multi-player opportunities thru the internet.

"Your perceived view that a thousand gamers have been lost is IMO wrong and nothing I have seen on this thread or the other has persuaded me you have it correct. Plenty of other reasons for the decline have been offered and are all plausible."

The convention director posted the attendance figures on one of these boards yesterday. They are posted on the HMGS web site. Almost 3600 people attended in 2009, the last year at the Host. 2,700 attended this year at FCC. That is 900-1,000 people gone. That is the very definition of a fact.

The only reason I've seen offered is the economy, which is an invalid comparison, because the 2009 base number is from a period as badly impacted or worse. It would be valid if 2008 or 2007 numbers were compared. No matter how many times people say it is the economy, that is not goingt o change the fact that economic impact in 2009 was at least as significant, and probably worse.

There has been a demographic map posted that supports the fact that the new location is farther away from the center of HMGS members.

You can keep insisting that the location has nothing to do with the declines, but there just isn't any evidence at all to support that.

AFway,

I understand your observations. Again, the size of the hobby,. the impact of video games, etc. were all in play in 2009 as well as was the poor economy. If you are going to explain a drop from 2009 to 2012 you have to examine factors that changed.

You state that the number of devotees are number going to support 3,000+ attendees, but the past numbers prove this wrong on its face.

Some reviews for the Lancaster Host Resort and Conference Center. Notice it is ranked 25th of 38 hotels in Lancaster on tripadvisor. Is this place really a resort?

link

link

link

Some reviews for the Fredericksburg Expo and Conference Center. Only a few reviews as it is a fairly new facility.

link

link

And lastly some reviews from the Valley Forge Convention Center for context.

link

link

Civildisobedience seems willing to speak for the thousand non-attendees even if they don't speak up themselves.

Well said JeremyR.

Perhaps all these legions of people lining up behind Civildisobedience might want to start a thread so they can register their feelings? I'm sure all 1000 will do so!

As I said before, if they feel that strongly, and they think that the Host would be more likely to win out, they should put up or shut up – put on their own con at the Host at the same time as Historicon, and we can make up our own minds which we want to go to.

Somehow I think doing more than whining about it is not something we're likely to see.

Action speaks louder than whining,

You state that the number of devotees are number going to support 3,000+ attendees, but the past numbers prove this wrong on its face.

No,CD. I said you are not ROUTINELY going to break 3000 attendees. There is always that far end of the curve, but it occurs only infrequently.

What happened to the "grading A-F " ? Lets leave the disagrement over Host etc.. vs F-Burg where it lies . No one involved here is going to change the other's opinion . If you want to keep it where it is or move it somewhere else then do it thru voting or run for a position of authority . The horse is truly dead !

Thanks, coolyork. Gradewise Fredericksburg gets a B+ from our family.

Upsides: Improved facility (relative to VFCC and Host), consolidated activities, decent number of vendors and flea marketeers, nice game selection, great (almost) on-site motels, variety of price options for off-site motels, great selection of area eateries, pleasant and helpful staff at venue and motel, multiple historical sites nearby, and the usual great H-con volunteers.

Downsides: traffic (though the southbound I95 traffic in VA was no worse than the northbound I95 traffic heading to VFCC), noise in the gaming hall, and hard floors in the halls. These latter items were not a problem for us, though I could see them wearing on dealers and GM's running multiple games. Also the flimsiest folding chairs that it's ever been my pleasure to have collapse under me. (Yeah, I sport the same lean and mean physique favored by a number of my gaming brethren….)

On balance, we like the new site, warts and all.

I have no tremendous problem with the Host, although I feel it serves spring and fall conventions better than one in the middle of the summer. I do think it'd be a good idea for the HMGS Board to look into Host availbility for 2014 or 2015 just to keep options open.

As far as attendance, there's a lot of stuff flying back and forth. My gut feel is that the decrease in NE attendees was greater than the increase in southern attendees. Although I don't think the net loss to the geographic transition is anywhere near the high-end figure mentioned (1,000?), I think a net drop in attendance was almost inevitable in a first year. I think things would balance out in another year or two, if the site remained in VA. No personal dog in this hunt since I live near Baltimore and travel distances north or south are much the same. Happy to see more folks south of DC attending. Sorry to miss the folks from PA and points north who didn't make it.

Just another $02. USD

Scott

"Civildisobedience seems willing to speak for the thousand non-attendees even if they don't speak up themselves."

I said that they did not go to FCC but went to the Host. Is that actually in doubt? I don't need to speak for them to be able to add and subtract.

Do you think the FCC-cheerleaders on here speak less for them in offering every reason under the sun for their absence EXCEPT the location?

You're right. You caught me. I have all 950 of them locked in the basement of a warehouse off exit 8A of the NJ turnpike. They really, really, really wanted to go to Fredericksburg, so I had to kidnap them and lock them up to stop them. Now I speak for them all! Bwahahahah! All part of my evil plan to discredit FCC (otherwise known as the best convention facility on Earth).

""No,CD. I said you are not ROUTINELY going to break 3000 attendees. There is always that far end of the curve, but it occurs only infrequently.""

I know this is going to be called confrontational, but this is simply incorrect. The previous convention director just posted historical attendance figures. The AVERAGE of every year he posted was 3,256.75. 3,000 is not an outlying number. It is well below the average attendance at the Host.

So yes, we did routinely break 3,000 right through the recession and right up until they moved the thing.

If Historicon isn't moved back North next year, I will never spend a dollar on any HMGS convention or product again.

Caving in to the Southern rabble-rousers instead of keeping it where it belongs is disastrous, and I hope IT FAILS. I hope that they lost money on this show, and they learn their lesson.

I guess you might as well plan your boycott, then, because it made money and is almost certainly going to be in Fredericksburg again next year.

At this point dont let either Civil or Carlos or anyone else bait any of you into fighting over this dead dog . Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee We all said are 2 cents. Leave it alone. NEXT TOPIC !

Carlos

"Southern Rabble Rousers"? At the time the decision was made VFCC four directors out of seven were from New Jersey or Pennsylvania. Three were from Virginia.

They opted for Fredericksburg because:

1. The sainted HOST had no slots available in July, and, in addition, it lacks the parking for an HISTORICON.

2. VFCC is a gambling casino.

3. The place in downtown Lancaster has neither hotels nor parking.

4. Nobody wants the BCC (besides, it is below the Mason Dixon Line anyway.)

Where do you get your cockeyed nonsens about "Southern Rabble Rousers"?

The convention program started at the Holiday Inn on Eisenhower Avenue in Alexandria VA. It moved to the Sheraton and Remada in the Maryland suburbs of DC.

We moved to Pennsylvania not because it is the sacred homeland of HMGS, but because we needed more space.

When we moved to the Penn Harris in 1987 there was a loss in both attendance and vendor revenue, but we lowered our costs and the convention resumed growth.

It wasn't a conspiracy. It was a lack of options.

Pat Condray

If Historicon isn't moved back North next year, I will never spend a dollar on any HMGS convention or product again. (/q>
Well Carlos, I guess you'll be saving a lot of money cuz I don't see it moving from FEC next year.

coolyork,

First rule of debate if you have no facts to back you up…target the very act of debate.

I might respectfully suggest that if you are tired of the conversation that you might consider not reading a thread about it.

Civil , Your right I am tired of this tread and have every right to say so. Let me ask you do you realy feel you or anyone is getting anywere on this subject ? Other than slighting each other back and fourth do you realy feel the tone of this thread is healthy ? You have said your peace ,so has others . Your not changing any of there minds on this .You must have something more positive to be doing .We all can see your point on this and some just dont care . Historicon will be at F-Burg next year . After that we'll see . I thought your report on the event was quite fair and dont dissagree with some of your other points. But it is what it is right now . Think real hard about this before you answer . I have seen enough here to see lines are being drawn in the sand that will not benfit anyone here. Hopefully your having a nice day otherwise !

This thread was set up for people to rate the convention so perhaps it should be left that way? There are other threads for debate….

Civildisobedience has changed my mind about Historicon. Obviously the move away from the Host is the only possible explanation for the drop in attendance. Anyone who believes the 2008-2012 global recession is partially to blame is a fool.

I'd rather the con be canceled than have it in Fredricksburg.

And I'll discuss it here or anywhere else I damn please holien, stop trying to silence dissent.

A correction to my last post. VFCC should have FEC.

Carlos, it won't be cancelled. And you can make as big a fool of yourself as often as you want.

But one thing you haven't suggested is where in your Imperial Opinion it rightfully belongs.

Pat Condray

Coolyork,

If I should have something more positive to do than post about the location what does that say about you wasting time whining about my posts? I feel like I am at least higher on the futility food chain.

Jeremy,

You can say recession 100,000,000 times, and it is not going to change the fact that 2008 and 2009 were years at the Host, and 2009 was subject to worse numbers on every economic measure than 2012. The economy is not a factor that has gotten worse since we left the Host, therefore it is a very weak suggestion as a reason for the decline.

CC, would you like some cheese with that whine? And if you don't like the FCC, then don't go. Real simple. But can the 'wishing Hcon fails' crap; that's just spiteful BS towards those who do attend and do enjoy it.

Civildisobedience, you say that the 2009 economic numbers were worse in every way than 2012. What about 2010 and 2011? In many ways 2010 was worse than 2009. Median household income continued to decline through 2010 and 2011 and didn't begin to rebound until late 2011. Even today the median household income is lower than it was in 2009.

"The median annual household income in June 2012 can be put into broader perspective by a comparison with previous levels of household income dating back to the start of the last decade. The June 2012 median annual household income of $50,964 USD was 4.8 percent lower than the median of $53,508 USD in June 2009, the end of the recent recession and beginning of the "economic recovery." The June 2012 median was 7.2 percent lower than the median of $54,916 USD in December 2007, the beginning month of the recession that occurred more than four years ago. And the June 2012 median was 8.1 percent lower than the median of $55,470 USD in January 2000, the beginning of this statistical series. These comparisons demonstrate how significantly real median annual household income has fallen over the past decade, and how much ground needs to be recovered to return to income levels that existed more than 10 years ago."

This quote was taken from the latest Sentier Research report and the whole report can be seen here.
link

So was 2009 really " subject to worse numbers on every economic measure than 2012?"

Civil , Your right ! I am wasting my time . You know maybe you and I can meet up at next years Historicon ( in Fredericksburg ,Va. ) and talk about that whinig coment ?

B-

I would give Historicon a solid B due to the problems previously sighted. A couple of additional complaints. The doors to the convention center were locked when we as staff showed up for our early shifts. I don't know if others noticed the late opening. I don't know if the water was set up in the side hallway on purpose because the facility was also selling bottled water. There were probably 6 cars in the parking lot at 7 AM. I just returned from WBC at the Host in lancaster. For a report the airconditioning was barrly working in most of the areas including the Paradise room, Lampeter, terrace, Marriette. It was minimal in the Distelfink room and great in the showroom. I guess that is why the showroom was packed with open games. I think we would have gotten a lot of complaints at the host. I wonder if anybody can comment on the shuttle. I saw a review that the FOW guys liked the venue. What about the other tournament guys? I think there is room at the local hotels to expand if extra room is needed. As for trafic from north Jersey, we went down early Wednesday and only got slightly delayed due to accident on Washingtons 495 west beltway (2 lanes closed) and by Jersey shore trafic on turnpike Sunday afternoon. I was a passenger so not bad.

"Civil , Your right ! I am wasting my time . You know maybe you and I can meet up at next years Historicon ( in Fredericksburg ,Va. ) and talk about that whinig coment ?"

Anytime

Jeremy,

I amend my statement. 2009 was worse for sure in GDP, retail spending, job growth, and unemployment. With median income there are some questions.

However, the same series of research reports notes that June 2011 household income was 49,909, while in June of 2012 it was $50,964. USD Yet the Fredericksburg location lost 10% of already reduced attendance at VFCC despite the fact that the VFCC event suffered from both scheduling abutting the July 4 weekend and a considerable degree of last-minute uncertainty resulting from the near-cancellation of the event due to the pending casino.

Another issue is that your report states June 2009 median income at 53,508, however the census department reports inflation-adjusted median income at $50,599 USD in 2009. If the census figures are accurate, then the 2009 and 2012 numbers are almost the same, which means nominal growth in income roughly matching inflation. And it still means that the VFCC shows that outdrew FCC were done with lower income figures.

Here is a table of personal income broken down by state. PA, NY, and NJ, probably the three states most affected by the move, all show personal income growth. I do not believe these figures are inflation-adjusted, however, it appears the raw numbers are sufficient to overcome the rates of inflation during the subject period.
bber.unm.edu/econ/us-pci.htm

Other contradicting numbers:

"Per capita personal income. Per capita personal income (personal income divided by population) rose 4.3 percent nationally in 2011 after rising 2.8 percent in 2010."

---from US Commerce Dept
link

The preponderance of evidence for economic drag on attendance points to 2009 as the year with peak impact. Perhaps a case could be made for 2010.

Civildisobedience, could you please post a link to the Census Bureau's $50,599 USD June 2009 inflation-ajusted number? I looked on their site and could not find it. But their site is a bit of a nightmare to try and navigate.

Jeremy,

I only had a few minutes and I couldn't find the census page I had before, but I did find a site reposting it.

link

I'll see if I can find the original site later

A little perspective is needed here. I live in Northern VA and have made it to Lancaster at least one or two times a year over the 20 years or so it has held HMGS cons. I also enjoy going down to Williamsburg for their two cons. You would be surprised who has turned up in Williamsburg from the northern climes. I'm leaving Gettysburg out because it is relatively close to Leesburg VA.
I've travelled to Lake Geneva, Staten Island, Western New York, Milwaukee, and took a weekend drive to a hobby shop in Indiana. This is over 35 plus years of wargaming. I didn't atttend VFCC. I was miffed about Baltimore which due to circumstance shifted to VFCC as well. Do I regret not going? No, I probably saved some money. But am I going to give up wargaming because it is in a northern state?
That would be idiotic in my opinion. So those of you who had HCON a lot closer for a long time, I say good for you and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
I'd like to catch a New Jersey con sometime and I've always been curious about Little Wars and Great Lakes. Am I going to throw a tantrum if HCON moves to one of those? No. I'll go if I can afford it. If not, I'll go to closer more affordable cons. I think HCON will move several times. It is somewhat driven by profits and location and will continue to be so. So why the South hate? If it's the ends of the earth for you, I understand or way too expensive.
I think PA is pretty cool and I like going there. I am married to someone from NJ. I don't hate anybody in the US due to geographical location. I left that up to my ancestors and they worked it out a while back.
Maynard

vonLoudon,

Your points all make sense. Look, the issue isn't whether someone COULD travel farther, or even that some people WOULD. But in any sampling, a lot won't. Many people have posted how far they drive to either location, but this is not the median amount a gamer will drive.

It has nothing to do, imo, with north or south. If they moved the thing six hours north from where it was the same would apply.

"If they moved the thing six hours north from where it was the same would apply."

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but you seem to suggest that Fredericksburg is 6 hours south of Lancaster. It is about 3 hours from Lancaster to Fredericksburg (I've been doing the route since the move from the Penn Harris). That is assuming one travels first to Lancaster, then moves on to Fredericksburg. Most of the midwesterners I talked to at H-Con noticed negligible difference in the travel time and those from the NY (and points north) area added 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours to their time. (I do recognize that some locales added more.)

If the Host is unavailable (as apparently it is for the near future), does a 3 hour travel time radius for other locations seem unreasonable? What alternative venues are located within the Lancaster to Philly corridor?

Chris

I meant if it moved north to where it was six hours from significant concentrations of attendees

Wouldn't that be somewhere north of Toronto?

No,that would put it Albany, Rochester or Hartford.

The six hours is total time ROUND TRIP for most north of the location. That would turn a 5 and some change drive to an 8 and some change drive from Albany N.Y.

That does change the dynamics of the drive. It even takes away almost a half day of gaming and shopping when you look at total convention time

When I say six hours, I mean each way. Which is how far F'burg is for many of us who were 2:45 or 3 hours from Lancaster. Obviously, different people are different distances away

I'd drive 6 hours for a great convention, and more than that for a fantastic one. I'd drive 6 hours for Historicon certainly. For a so-so convention, it would have to be local for me to attend.

Which is more important to you, the drive there, or what is there once you arrive? 150 or so extra miles costs you an additional 3 hours driving time, and certainly no more than $30 USD extra in gas, each way. Is that enough to deter your trip there?

For me no, if I had the money. But, the expense is greater and more than $30. USD When I budgeted for V.A. I couldn't make it work because I would have lost extra time at work to be there for Fri, Sat and Sun morning. I could have budgeted for P.A. and barely made it. The time, six hours on avg, is now spent driving rather than being at the convention. That is six hours ADDED not total. Many people who have loyaly supported HMGS and are older, many in thier seventies, do find the extra time driving and subtracted from convention time to cancel out the the value in going which is sad. I have decided that the loss of many I wish to see there, has cancelled the "need" for me to go. Cold Wars now seeems more appealing.

I didn't mind, almost, a six hour drive to Lancaster but eight hours is a tad much. Especialy when you host games.

Yes, I know some of you come from farther away. Good. But you have to realize you are not the majority. Texas and California and those that fly in thank you for the support. You are not ordinary, you are extrodinary. we are talking about the average attendee.

I get the feeling people aren't reading what people are posting. We are supposed to have a high comprehension rate in this hobby; so, I know it's not our ability to read. I know that many people are posting valid arguments on both sides but some people make snide or counter arguments to things that haven't been said. If this is going to get fixed anytime in the near future we need to start recognizing that the comment you "hate" or oppose may have validity to it. Thinking the future is all sunshine and roses becuase we are now in VA is just as silly as believing that the future is all doom and gloom. Although this is a small sampling on TMP, it is represenative of more than the few of us discussing this on these boards.

This argument has made me renew my membership to HMGS. Maybe walking away when things got out of hand was the wrong move. To hear how few voted in the most recent election is disturbing and I want things fixed. Wherever Historicon ends up, it should be the one convention that people say, "You have to go and see this con, its amazing". Right now there are too many people saying, "Remeber when it was great".