"Historicon Review" Topic

I am led to believe the powers that be have no interest in returning to the Host for Hcon, no matter what. My view is that when the final numbers come in (and I suspect they will be down), it would be prudent to put a hold for future years at the Host so as not to tie the hands of future BODS, but like all BODs, they probably figure what happens in out years is not their problem. I am not saying they are bad people, just that they are focused on the here and now and don't like the Host, for whatever reasons.

Herr Raisin, I agree the Host has its own issues, but based on attendance, you can't argue with its results. I would favor a return of FI to the Ike so as not to put all our eggs in one basket. I honestly don't see any issues the Ike had that FEC also doesn't have, except the noise one.

HG,

One can extrapolate the attendance figures for 2005/2006 based upon the 2007 AAR. They would be in the range of:
2005: 2,865 – 2,890 or an avg of 2,877
2006: 3,165 – 3,190 or an avg of 3,177

The 3% drop in attendnance in 2009 is most likely due to the economy as nothing else had changed. The big drop came with the Baltimore fiasco which resulted in the con moving at the last minute to VFCC. Although it's clear that attendance remained essentially the same at that location (2 data points) even with the change in timing. Who knows what would've happened if the con location could have stablized there.

Increases in attendance is probably based more on stability of location/timing of a convention than anything else as folks get used to the location.

"Increases in attendance is probably based more on stability of location/timing of a convention than anything else as folks get used to the location."

I would generally agree, but we must also takes into account that we lost a significant portion of attendance to begin with, even before going to another facility. HMGS already lost 17%, so to say attendance increases from that point on is kind of misleading, unless the "increase" overtakes one of the previous high numbers either at the Host or the VFCC. If any increase doesn't do that, you are just in the process of recovering losses, not increasing your previous attendance.

Just a little math problem here regarding attendance, ruling out economic factors, and focusing mainly on the move.

2012 – ????? – FEC; unknown #, assumed to be less than 2011
2011 – 2,958 – VFCC; down 0.7% from 2010
2010 – 2,980 – VFCC*; down 16.4% from 2009 [*Change from BCC at the last minute]
2009 – 3,565 – Host; down 2.8% from 2008
2008 – 3,667 – Host; up 12.3% from 2007
2007 – 3,272 – Host

Average last 3 years at the Host = 3501
Average for the 2 years at the VFCC = 2969

Drop in Average attendance from the Host to the VFCC = 15.1%

Assuming a similar loss we could expect the number of attendees for the FEC to be around 2523, which, strangely enough, is very close to my personal SWAG. Hope that I'm wrong and it's more.

I think there were two actions that were the most detrimental to attendance. The first, and most damaging, was the whole move from the Host to the BCC. Straw polls responded to, and Hotel reservations NOT made by members and attendees for that location were scary. Disregarding the cost issue, the show itself would have been a disaster from all evidence. The second was, unfortunately, the move from the VFCC to the FEC. In that case, HMGS didn't have a heck of a lot of choices, but the change still bothered a fair number of people. The anger is nowhere near as bad as that produced as a result of the BCC move that didn't happen.

I would take into account that both VCCs were held on the July 4th week.

I imagine that there were some people who take a annual vacation at that time, so we probably did lose some people because of that. On the other hand, there could have been others for whom it was easier to take off that week because it was the week/weekend after the 4th rather than the 3rd week/weekend in July. We'll never know the answer to that.

There's probably too many "moving parts" to this problem to do a true apples-to-apples comparison.

"I honestly don't see any issues the Ike had that the FEC also doesn't have"….

Not sure about that one. The dealer hall at the Ike was a rat trap, white particles of paint constantly fluttered down from the ceiling, not to mention the food both in the hall and at the hotel was worse than ice hockey rink food with no alternatives within walking distance, driving off of the site and into town is the only option and most places are crowded with tourists.

Not to mention the dealer hall and the gaming areas were in two seperate locations.

The FEC is newer, cleaner (lakes of urine aside, but don't we get that everywhere a con is held), much more modern in all aspects.

I love going to Gettysburg as much as the next guy, but I am not in favor of us returning to the Ike anytime soon.

"(lakes of urine aside, but don't we get that everywhere a con is held),"

Nope. I've only seen this type of behavior at Historicon. The first time I encounted it was at the Host, which was not a good first impression of that place.

Oh and in Frat Houses in my old college days.

Never seen it at wargaming conventions anywhere else in the US.

LIG is most likely correct for the VFCC cons. I remember a lot of folks complaining about the dates. It was the reason I missed the first one, especially due to the short notice of the change.

Was able to make the second one though with adequate planning and combining it with a vacation with the wife.

"The dealer hall at the Ike was a rat trap, white particles of paint constantly fluttered down from the ceiling,"

Hadn't heard that about paint. The All Star is bigger than the Host tennis barn, and can put on both games and dealers. That was a con decision, not one of space.

"…not to mention the food both in the hall and at the hotel was worse…"

Agreed. Solved by telling them we'll come, but are bringing in outside food vendors (with a payback from them), as they cannot handle the food alone. Otherwise, good bye.

".. but than ice hockey rink food with no alternatives within walking distance."

Correct me if I am wrong, but the only food withint walking distance of FEC is the Wegmann's? So other than that, what is the difference?

"…driving off of the site and into town is
the only option and most places are crowded with tourists."

Like the Lancaster area we have been at forever? If you have to drive (like at FEC), you have to drive. I see no difference.

"Not to mention the dealer hall and the gaming areas were in two seperate locations."

Self selecting by the con directors, as that was not always the case. Then swap and the dealers go the hotel, whatever. They offered it to us for a fraction of the FEC, and it is closer to more attendees than FEC.

"The FEC is newer, cleaner (lakes of urine aside, but don't we get that everywhere a con is held), much more modern in all aspects."

Conceded. No site is perfect. So what do you want, a newer site or more attendance, as I suspect the choice is going to be that simple.

"I love going to Gettysburg as much as the next guy, but I am not in favor of us returning to the Ike anytime soon."

I respect your opinion, but from a financial or base attendance stand point, the Ike and the Host make the most sense – and I am well aware of the shortcoming of both. I am also willing to concede that the dealers did better as more new people attended there, but perhaps at the expense of a lot of the old attendees.

"Average last 3 years at the Host = 3501
Average for the 2 years at the VFCC = 2969

Drop in Average attendance from the Host to the VFCC = 15.1%"

So what if we lose another 15% with this latest move? Then what?

The discussion of the Eisenhower/AllStar complex near Gettysburg actually doesn't belong in this discussion since the only convention ever held there by HMGS is Fall In, with substantially fewer numbers of vendors, games, and attendees than Historicon at the Host. From my experiences there, the food and bathroom situations would become very problemactic, as they way they were set up they barely were able to handle Fall In numbers.

The hotel itself has 300 rooms, with no nearby alternatives. From their own website, they claim 77,000 square feet of floor space, less than the Host or the FEC.

There are no nearby dining options, and Gettysburg itself has few compared to Lancaster or especially Fredericksburg.

The ONLY reason we would want to move Historicon to Gettysburg is cost. But it would also then become the smallest and worst of HMGS' conventions.

So what if we lose another 15% with this latest move? Then what?

Good point, however, I don't think we're asking the correct questions. What is the definition of success here? Did they plan to lose 25%? If so, then they're going to claim this is a smashing success.

What is their roll back plan – if there is one? The whole time we were in the VCC I really though the Board was making plans to get back into the Host. I really didn't think they would try to move this again – until I spoke with a friend of mine.

Personally, I'm not saying much until the numbers come out – there is too much variance. Someone told me that they had 3,000 tickets pre sold. Now from the people that attended, it looks like 2500 to 2600. If they did pre-sell 3,000 and broke that number, then fine – keep it there (I'll still never go ;) ). If they come back with numbers around 2500, they should be very nervous.

There's probably too many "moving parts" to this problem to do a true apples-to-apples comparison.

That been my major sticking point when it comes to this entire move. Attendance numbers were more than acceptable until Pete and the "next levers" stepped in. With almost no data, they take their flagship convention and start messing with it. When I spoke to Heather, Pete and the rest of the Board, it was clear they had nothing of substance.

Enter the new Board and I'm not sure they have a good handle on this. I'll know more at Fall In.

Getting mad at dirty bathrooms at a gamers convention is like getting mad at a zebra for having stripes.

I went to H-con this year as I do most years. I always find it amusing to hear Easterners bitch and moan about location. Try flying out from California and renting a car year after year, THEN you can complain!

The con lacked a bit of the luster it had during the Host years. There seemed to be fewer games, fewer gamers,and fewer things for sale both at the dealer room and the flea market. The main room was terribly noisy, and the on site food was poor. Still the best con in the USA, though, and if I can afford the air-fare I am going again next year.

My suggestion would be Cold Wars at FCC and the other two cons at the Host. If you really wanted a sop to the NE crowd, then put a con in Albany

My God would you guys please stop trying to wedge Historicon back into the dump, sorry I mean the Host.

Well said foxfoxfox!

HistoryGamer said "Conceded. No site is perfect. So what do you want, a newer site or more attendance, as I suspect the choice is going to be that simple."

And I do believe he is correct. Which is more important to folks: Lots of attendees or better facilities (and yes I believe the host is a dump and almost anything is better)?

Also, will the attendance rise if the location/timing of the convention stabilizes over some period of time?

I'd prefer better facilities. The Host doesn't provide them, because it's a dump. If we keep it at the new place, attendance might rise, but even if it doesn't, I prefer it by a large margin.

Let's go to the Four Seasons and have seven guys playing a game and call it Historicon.

The problem is that with any "better" facility the costs more that triple. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think prices were rolled back at FEC, even though its costs were substantially lower than VFCC. Wouldn't that have been part of an incentive to support a new facility, especially for the dealers?

This facility was reviewed and dismissed by many of the same people now supporting it, years ago.

Firstvarty1979, former senior Hcon staffers assured me that the Host and Ike have virtually the same square footage, and remember we utilize a lot of off book space not listed on websites, such as hallways. They also pointed out that the All Star Sports complex has been completely emptied out now (so even more space) and that if HMGS paid more it could stay open later than it did.

In regards to hotels, the area is loaded with them, most within a 15 minute drive (like at FEC). While I grant you there are not a lot of chain restaurants in Gettysburg, there are a lot of restaurants. I remember we used to go out to a micro-brewery that was in a an old barn that was used as a hospital during the battle. Seek and ye shall find. :-)

foxfoxfox, let me ask you this – if the "dump" attracts more people, which is more important then, the asthetics, or the attendance, as you seem to be arguing for the later? We are down 20% already, and there is a good chance the new facility attracted less still. I'd like a newer place too, FEC is closer to me, but I'd also like to keep all the dealers and attendees. But don't worry, I think you are safe as the BOD won't move, regardless of what the numbers show, so you'll get your newer building, overwhelmed bathrooms, noisy gaming area, lower attendance, limited parking, and same square footage at the Host for twice the price.

2200 attendees at a more than reasonable price of $25 USD for the weekend will bring-in %55,000 and this doesn't include the dealers which should bring in at least $35,000 USD for a total of $90,000. USD Of course if the convention continues to give away free entrance for games and overstaff itself then expenses will rise and receipts will diminish. I don't know about the staffing but it is my understanding that rooms for speakers were eliminated cutting expenses. Additionally, one could argue that as HMGS is a not for profit, gamers should willingly pay a meager $25 USD for a weekend ticket.

Also, there are corporations, let's say Wegman's for one of many, which live to donate to non-profits because it is good business and it looks good to the IRS.

And speaking of HMGS being a non-profit I would hope we got the facility and the hotel staff rooms tax-free, a benefit PA would not allow us. If not there is no obvious reason not to move the corporation to VA to ameliorate taxes.

The bottom line is, even not being involved it is evident the Fredericksburg business community appears to be amenable to working with HMGS to establish a partnership which it beneficial to them and us.

But that's okay lets just sit around and think of failure rather than work for success.

Bob Coggins

ps: I would bet we can get 4/5 additional hotels in the area to provide siginficant room discounts. Bob Giglio did it at VF and he/we can do it in Fredericksburg.

Historicon preliminary report has been posted on Yahoo.

2700 attendees, 550 total events.
Budget numbers "matched or bettered" and HC expected to end up in the black.

So…I'm glad I already have my F'burg hotel reservation because the Host is toast.

Bob,

In what universe are corporations like Wegman's "living" to give money to groups like HMGS?

"The bottom line is, even not being involved it is evident the Fredericksburg business community appears to be amenable to working with HMGS to establish a partnership which it beneficial to them and us. "

Seriously, that is empty debate babble. What, specifically, do you think the "Fredericksburg business community" is going to do to substantively help Historicon? Can you name one specific example of what you are talking about?

So 10% down from what VFCC did on a much less desirable weekend and 25% down from the Host. If they manage to drive a few more people away we can have this thing in the back room of some restaurant soon.

Posted on the yahoo group from the convention director…

Preliminary numbers show that about 2700 folks showed up (that's total attendees-all categories, counted to date) to purchase, play and socialize. We'll publish exact numbers once we finish checking the data. There were more than 550 events (games, tournaments, speakers, classes). Attendance and events numbers are within about 10% of recent convention totals.

Vendor square footage was roughly the same it has been for the past couple of years, so there was plenty to buy. We were missing some long-time participants and added a few in their stead. Any ‘survey' of vendor sales will be unscientific, but there were some smiling faces in the vendor hall.

Lots of family members reported that there is indeed plenty of fun stuff to do in and near Fredericksburg---shopping, dining, visiting museums and other sites of historic interest.

Historicon 2012 matched or bettered budgeted numbers and we expect the convention to end up in the black.

As with any new location, there were issues.

Many of our friends from north of Washington DC chose to not make the longer drive, through difficult traffic. We missed them, and would like to figure out ways to make it easy for them to come back. Many folks did make that longer drive, as did many who now had a shorter one. There were also many new faces, lots from south of Washington DC.
We can do some things to make the long drive more tolerable, such as post alternate routes and less stressful travel times. We could extend registration hours to accommodate late arrivals (no matter what direction they come from).

There were some issues with the venue. Site layout, noise, restroom facilities, signage, internet access, to name a few. We are discussing these with the facility and expect to improve in all respects.

There were some issues with on-line registration and reserving spots in games. We believe we understand most of the glitches and will post clear directions for future conventions.

Along with the much-appreciated constructive criticism, there have been plenty of positive comments. There was lots to do, both on-site and off; plenty of games, classes and tournaments, good shopping, and lots of nearby historical attractions.

Good to have everything all in one place and on one level. Functional air conditioning. Plenty of nearby food choices. Hotel rooms across a wide variety of prices.
When HMGS negotiated the 2012 and 2013 contracts with Fredericksburg last year, we included a 90-day window where we could review 2012 performance before committing to 2013. We are reviewing the 2012 contracts and negotiating with the hotels for 2013. HMGS will make an announcement for Historicon 2013 when we finish this process.

Again, thanks to all who came to Fredericksburg in 2012!
John Drye
Historicon 2012 Director

For comparison purposes, a few attendance figures from some other VERY popular venues:

Dallas Cowboys:
2009 718k total, 89.8k average / game (1st yr in new stadium)
2010 696k total, 87.0k average / game
2011 684k total, 85.5k average / game

NASCAR race at Indianapolis speedway:(speedway-announced figures)
2007 270k
2008 240k
2009 180k
2010 140k
2011 138k
2012 125k

So if these mega sports franchises with *global* appeal are having attendance problems, maybe, just maybe, the figures for HC are not really entirely the fault of the scheming, evil, corrupt, incompetent, etc. BoD, hmmmmm?

"within 10%"

What a diplomatic (political) way to say we dropped another 10% off already depressed levels.

Also, what does "roughly" the same amount of dealer space mean? It was a rectangle…not hard to be exact here if you wanted to.

FYI, regarding the economy and other X factors from 2009 (last Host con) and now, here are the Origins numbers:

2009 – 10,030
2010 – 10,669
2011 – 11,502
2012 – 11,332

Up 13% while we are down 25%. I guess they live in the alternate universe where the economy is not worse in 2012 than it was in 2009.

"So if these mega sports franchises with *global* appeal are having attendance problems, maybe, just maybe, the figures for HC are not really entirely the fault of the scheming, evil, corrupt, incompetent, etc. BoD, hmmmmm?"

Well, actually it was mostly the mindless disregard for basic demographics and economics because a handful of people decided Historicon was too good for the Host.

It was handled badly too, which certainly didn't help, and made some folks mad.

FYI:

Gencon 2009 attendance 27,900
Gencon 2011 attendance 36,733

Quote from the Havoc 2012 web site: "Our attendance overall was about the same as last year too." I couldn't find specific numbers.

Amazing how Historicon seems to be the only one bleeding attendance.

Amusing quote from the HMGS web site: "HMGS sponsors the finest historical miniatures wargaming conventions anywhere, some drawing in excess of 3700 attendees." Lol. Not anymore.

Civil,

Lighten up. I heard the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders and Danica Patrick will be attending the next Historicon to get attendance up. They are just "living" to contribute to non-profits like HMGS. :)

I'll reserve final judgement for the actuals but this convention did not arrest the slide in attendance, only added to it, and we have now lost about 25% or our attendance the past three years – if this preliminary number holds up.

Whatever happens, I do wish the organization well.

FYI, regarding the economy and other X factors from 2009 (last Host con) and now, here are the Origins numbers:

2009 – 10,030
2010 – 10,669
2011 – 11,502
2012 – 11,332

FYI:

Gencon 2009 attendance 27,900
Gencon 2011 attendance 36,733

Amazing how Historicon seems to be the only one bleeding attendance.

To add another angle, Historicon also suffers from two problems not experienced by the other organizations; a board that is at times remarkably dysfunctional, and a significant part of its membership which takes an almost Masada like approach to change.

Did Origins and/or Gencon move their locations and/or change the normal timing of their conventions twice in the last three years?

I'm certain that cheerleaders would help attendance!

Why don't the whiners set up their own con at the same time as Historicon? You might even be able to get the Hole…er…Host. That way con-goers can vote with their feet.

Civil,

How sad. Tens of thousands of corporations give billions to non-profits every year and not all of them are The Little Sisters of the Poor.

Just because you think of HMGS as a "club" doesn't mean others do. We have an attendance of 3000-4000 that's a lot of money and Wegman's is close to the center. Sales old boy. If you've ever been to a convention other than a wargame convention, you'd find most "real" conventions have their expenses defrayed with sponsorship of various items such as programs and convention packs. I don't think I've ever been to a "real" convention where things such as convention bags (cloth and plasic) were not supported with adds. Many supermarkets are now selling inexpensive cloth bags (mine sells a very nice bag with the store's logo for 77 cents) which for a minimal cost to the retailer can have Historicon superimposed and thus be written off as a donation.

We certainly can do better regarding local retailers supporting Historicon with discounts. The local water park would certainly be interested in price reductions in return for a promotion. Local wineries could hold tastings (subject to the law) where every one can get buzzed and buy wine etc. Indeed one of our members is the wine maker for a VA vinyard.

As for the business community helping. The Chamber of Commerce can arrange meetings and grease the skids by giving us credibility. It's called business.

Bob Coggins

Retailers would do things such as sponsor convention bags and inserts or programs – just put their name on it.

Historicon was the largest event to be held at the FCC. If I don't miss my bet the business community has an interest in working with us to keep the convention. This can include reduced hotel rates, shuttle buses and restaurant discounts etc. Such efforts can be written off as advertisement and promotion. And if such promotion only defrays the covention expenses for the individual then the more money available for the gamers.

As for taxes, if VA recognizes HMGS' status we can discount staff hotel rooms as well as write off entertainment taxes. Again this is an area that the business community in Fredericksburg can help with politically.

I don't suppose we have any figures for Fall In and Cold Wars for the last few years, do we?

The Dallas Cowboys are bleeding attendance because of Jerry Jones and and Tony "I can't win an important game" Romo. What s funny is the New York Giants attendance has increased every year for a 18 year period.

Could it be that the decisions being made at the top can hurt or help an orginization? You are right it is like HMGS, only we have "Jerry Jones" making decisions instead of Jerry Reese.

HMGS should let the members vote on where they want Historicon. Let the members decide … if they choose not to vote then so be it. Offer the Host and offer Fredricksburg … see what the membership prefers. The board can proceed from there … and be done with it. Sounds like if a vote was taken before the end of this year, it would be practicle to vote on the 2014 location.

Mike B

Bob,

Again, you just throw around a lot of non-specific, baseless comments. First, you are blurring the line between charity and advertising. Corporations give to some charities, though I suspect securing donations is a bit harder than suggested by your implication that they are just throwing money at anyone who asks. HMGS does not qualify in any way for this type of donation. Supporting a few thousand guys playing games does not meet the standards of a charity. As much as I'd love to hijack money that was going to buy some homeless guy a coat so we can have Historicon bags, I don't think the donors would bite. So I would suggest that donations as such are out of the question.

With regard to sponsorships, such as the bags you mention, this is advertising. A store is going to focus its advertising efforts on locals, since they will shop there every day, and not just drive by once a year. Also, our attendance is a pittance in the overall scheme of things. Again, it is not a couple thousand new residents; it's a couple thousand people coming into town for anywhere from half a day to four days. I'm sure they did business from us, but how would bags have enhanced that? They were the only source of food besides the pig vomit the center served that was within what most of our hobby would consider walking distance (except the awesome Beach Fries truck). You could hardly miss the giant store as you drove up to the center, so other than offering an, "eat eleven burgers and get the 12th free" special, I'm not sure what they would have gained.

As to placing a Historicon logo or whatever on the store's bags, exactly what would that accomplish for us? Unleash the massive horde of would-be mini gamers lurking in the produce section? It would be over-exaggerating to suggest that 1 in 10,000 Americans is a mini gamer (and that would suggest 30k gamers, which seems high to me). So what would we gain by bewildering a few Wegman's shoppers? Why would the store want to print bags that were only useful (to the extent that they were useful at all) for four days?

Also, you need an accounting lesson. If the store spends money printing bags, that cost is a deductible expense whether they sell them or give them away. If they give them away, they are just losing the money they would have gotten by selling. For example:

Say they sell bags at 70 cents as you said. Assume they break even (the bags cost 70 cents to make). They are even.

Now assume they give the bags away. They have 70 cents in cost, which now becomes a loss. Whether the 70 cents is a donation or just a business expense, it is the same treatment. Assume their corporate taxes are 30% (and they are probably less). They save 21 cents that would have been paid as taxes, and they are still 49 cents in the hole.

You mention 3000-4000 attendance? May I ask what you are smoking, and where can I get some? 3,000 is in the rearview mirror, back in Lancaster and 4,000 is just a wild pipe dream at this point.

I have no doubt that if someone from HMGS wanted to put in the footwork they could get some local businesses to offer discounts. But this is true in any location. It has nothing whatsoever to do specifically with Fredericksburg. Plus, I seriously doubt anyone from HMGS has the time or inclination to cold call a bunch of local businesses.

"Grease the skids?" Did you really say that? Grease the skids for what? I'd be happy if they made the convention center clean the bathrooms! Exactly what do we need ths kids greased for?

What are you talking about with politics? You do know we are talking about HMGS, right? Not taking any shots at the board, but you do realize how tiny and insignificant HMGS is outside our hobby, don't you? Do you know what lawyers cost? Accountants? I'm half expecting you to suggest we need a lobbyist. Maybe an HMGS tower in a major downtown. A store on 5th Avenue next to the NBA store maybe?

Also, a few corrections, because if you are doing the taxes for any business I think you are flirting with an all-expense paid Federal vacation.

First, what is an "entertainment tax?" Are you talking about writing off entertainment expenses? This has been sharply curtailed in recent years, and much of this is not deductible anymore. Also, if it is deductible it is deductible in any circumstance, even for a for-profit business.

Second, HMGS is a non-profit, is it not? Those of us who have dared to call it a club have been repeatedly reminded of the organization structure. Why is a non-profit in need of these audit-bait deductions you seem to be flirting with? And, by the way, even if HMGS was not a non-profit, I suspect it would have enough losses right about now to shelter income for some time.

Honest to God, Bob, I can't figure out one decipherable thing you are suggesting that has any material effect on the convention.

Still, I guess greased skids" is a good thing…

mbsparta,

I couldn't agree more. But Mr. Smith doesn't go to Washington anymore, and the HMGS board couldn't care less what the members think. Sad but true.

Civil and Historicalgamer,

I think I already know the answer but I really have to be sure- Did either of you actually attend this years show?

Simple yes or no is what I am looking for-not excuses and such- just a yes or no please

Fox,

Yes, I attended. Drove down Thursday night, left Saturday night.

To follow up somewhat on what Bob said; the help at a couple of the restaurants in the area I ate at told me we were there during their slow season as a lot of folks from the area are away on vacation.

That seemed odd to me as I assumed people traveled there for vacation in the summer, but I was told that is not the case; both establishments were happy to have the gamers there, one of them gave me some 10% off coupons as a matter of fact and I felt like the restaurants and hotels in the area were happy to have us and why wouldn't they be, I assume the 2500 or so people who attended pumped a nice chunk of change into the economy in the area during their slow season.

The hotel staff where I stayed were happy to have us and went out of their way to treat us great; sorry, I never got that from any of the hotels or restaurants near the Host, they could give a crap less if we are there or not.

The location has a lot of upside IMO, this was our first convention there, so why don't we give them some time to work with us and do more for us before thinking about a new landing spot in 2014; looks like short of a real disaster, it will be there in 2013, so let's try to improve what they have to offer instead of looking to bail out after a year.

Interesting you point that out Double G. I actually stayed at the Hampton Inn next to the expo center on Wednesday night for business. As usually, the 3 hotels were full of business travelers (I know the Hilton Garden Inn was sold out as I could not get a room there when I tried even before Historicon for this date). Between business travelers and I-95 travelers, they do get some business.

A factor in the slowness of the restaurants also has to do with the local University being out for the summer. Mary Washington University has over 4,000 undergraduates and adds a lot to the community when in session. No doubt this accounts at least partly for slower business in the summer.

After reading on line reviews of the "HOST", it is physically impossible for me to attend in a facility that munged up with mold.

I'da gone to FCC but I had to attend to my 25th anniversary. I'll be attending next year, though, as there is much to see and do in F'burg and the facility is less fatal.

Egads, mold? Time somebody got ahold of the health dept. up there and got that cleared up or the joint shut down.

Civil,

Your agenda is to move Historicon back to central PA. Your problem is you base your agenda on the negative; not that PA is better but that Fredericksburg is worse. Perhaps you're smarter than me but I always thought the greater good is created by optimism not negativity.

So where's your optimism?

Bob Coggins

Bob Coggins

Bob,

Baseless, fact-ignoring optimism is for children. I could jump out of a window and be optimistic I will figure out how to fly, but I don't.

I base my "agenda" on reality.

PA is more centrally located among the membership and the attendance has plunged since we left. That is reality, not negativism.

I have said positive things about FCC as well, but none of that changes the fact that the con is bleeding attendance.