"Historicon Review" Topic

Double G, even though you and I have very different opinions about FCC, let me congratulate you on a successful show. I wish you all the best!

History & LIG, let it go, pleeeeeease. For all of our sakes. "We paid twice as much" Why, I didn't. So why did you? Did someone put a gun to your head & force you to pay twice for everything? Oh Lord, never mind. Just stop ya'lls incessant bitchin & go to cons that are 1 hour or less from your house. Or quit HMGS & start your own Con's (maybe in your basement?). Everyone will be happier, I promise. And leave holien alone. The man travels from England (home of war gaming, or at least as we know it) has a blast, played in my game and was a hell of a nice guy & great player. I believe I could call him a new gamin' friend. With folks like ya'll & threads like this I may never see him again.
Just Stop Please…

Ceterman – is anyone forcing you to read our posts? Isn't there a stifle button? If Holien wanted not to be bothered, why jump on the thread? Once we move Historicon we'll be happy.

Wait – I have an idea!! Why not have Holien fly over and play in YOUR basement!!! Sometimes, I'm just amazing!!

Thanks LIG, I appreciate your comments; I was very concerned after my straw poll at Cold Wars determined that most of my customers were not going to Historicon.

If they weren't going, who would pick up the slack; well as it turned out, most of them in fact did go, plus I met a lot of new customers from the area and the net result is I had a killer show.

Not sure what the future holds for Historicon and where it will land for good, but the fact is my sales have gone up since the show left the Host both years in Valley Forge and this year in Fredericksburg.

As a dealer, I can't ask for more than that…………

I hope the trend continues where ever you go :)

From your lips to Gods ears.

I think the location needs some work as has been pointed out as it's not perfect (but in reality what location is), but I'd like to see it stay there and keep Cold Wars and Fall In at the Host……….

This thread is still making me smile….

Thxs Ceterman I enjoyed your game and yes a new friend. No need to defend me, I am big enough to take any comment as I am getting involved and offering a different POV…

;)

There seems to just two people with a bee in their bonnet (which is an amusing image in my mind).

I paid broadly the same as I did for the last two HCons and for me the new venue and hotel and location knock the socks off the last venue.

If it does not do it for you the best place to achieve change is by being inside the tent not on the outside peeing in…..

:)

But keep making me smile

BTW If it did not make a Profit to allow it to continue at the same location then that is a concern but no one here can say that as I guess it is those inside the tent that know.

I hope it did make a profit (small one) and it can continue and I will support the event as long as my wife and finances allow…

:)

Hope to see all the great gamers and new friends there next year….. (And if I do I will try and make the time to run a game to help keep it going.)

When someone says it cost 'twice as much', I don't think they're talking about their, or others, personal costs [although in some cases maybe]. I think they mean the cost to the organization to rent the venue, and pay for all the incidental costs associated with running the event itself. So HMGS spent more money at FCC in order to host the event for the masses.

npm

Well, they are talking about a 'twice as much as a theoretical con in July at the host based on numbers from 4 years ago'. We don't know what the current price on the host would be in July, it hasn't been held there in 4 years. We do know that this same group were cheerleaders to move it to VFCC – because it was in PA and more convenient to them.

And of course multiple people in a position to know have stated that they can't have it at the Host due to booking issues. Not that the Host isn't available at all – just that the entire facility isn't available on any weekend, which is what Historicon would need.

So it may be true that there is space available at the Host. That's not what's important. What is important is that there is enough space for Historicon. The answer to that we have been told multiple time is no.

From the financials, the cost at Valley Forge was twice as much as the cost at Federicksburg, for what that's worth.

Looks like the only year that Historicon wasn't profitable was 2009, because of legal issues with the contract at the Baltimore Convention Center. Legal fees hit the club hard that year and 2010.

I'd be surprised with infrastructure overhead half of what it was in Valley Forge if FCC isn't a profitable con.

And of course that's just one of many costs (although the single largest most years). The overall budget for Historicon is in the 100-150K range per year.

Finally, this isn't a for profit corporation, and we aren't share holders. Its a non-profit, that is devoted towards running games for gamers. It does some educational work to qualify for some benefits there.

If it is bringing in enough to support the con with a bit of a buffer for bad times, its doing its job.

Posted by Bowman
For your edification, Demiurgex:

I happen to have severe allergies to mites, dust, mold and grass pollen. I've had the pleasure of going into anaphylactic shock a few times in my life, too. I have stayed at the Host for Historicon for the decade before the "Move Historicon Now!" insanity hit. I have never experienced anything of the sort that you have described. Seriously, in the litigious atmosphere that businesses find themselves in, how could the Host afford to tolerate such a liability?

I'd call "hyperbole", but I see that LIG already called you out on it. Maybe you can play the "Host is going bankrupt/being condemned/being torn down" card next.

For your edification, Bowman There's a person in this thread that stated they had severe reaction to the Host that included the needed 'for a round of heavy antibiotics.' Am I making that up? Is the dealer who posted that making it up?

Check tripadvisor. There are several reviews that indicate the problems. Here's a nice one from the 23rd, the time frame that we'd have the con:

"RUN… Do not stay here"
2 of 5 stars Reviewed July 23, 2012 NEW

The only reason I'm giving this "Resort" two stars vice one is because of the kids zone. I think more hotel/resorts should have something like this so that consumers have other options than staying at this dump.
Where to begin… we stayed this past weekend and it was unseasonable cold. The day we arrived, it was 68 degrees and we attempted to turn the AC down but it wouldn't budge. We had to call maintenance out to have them fix the air conditioner because it would only blow out cold air.
The rooms aren't like you see in the pictures; they have horrible lighting and the furniture is rather dated. The television is also dated and the linens could use an upgrade.
The shower was HORRIBLE. The water wouldn't drain properly so water would pool around your feet if you stayed in the shower too long. The shower curtains were NASTY. It was to the point where I didn't want to shower because I was AFRAID of the stains on the shower curtains. I think the entire cleaning staff needs to be fired because the toilet had a ring of black mold around the inside of the bowl.
I actually went to Kohls (located next to the Resort) and purchased bedding for the night.
I have an infant and DID NOT let him crawl on the floor as it seemed to be rather damp… there was even some sticky stuff (I'm hoping it was jelly) on one portion of the carpet.

I just went through Trip Advisor,for the month of July, 5 people gave the Host 1 star, 6 people gave it 2 stars, 4 people gave it 3 stars, and 4 people gave it 4 stars. 11 of the 18 reviews were below average. However, it does seem they put on a very nice wedding. :)

I've already stated that I would attend Historicon at the Host.

I just wouldn't book a room there.

The hotels around FEC are clearly superior, and in walking distance. The food around FEC is clearly superior. The Convention Center itself has one big advantage over the Host – ease of access and a centralized location for the games.

You wouldn't know any of this, because you didn't attend, correct?

However, reasonably, the Host does have some advantages, including lower noise and a more secluded atmosphere for games. That is an clear advantage, and I rate it highly, because the games are the most important thing.

The cost is misleading. Its basically $10 USDK more for FEC than the Host, and the cost of the facility is from 1/5th to 1/6th the total price of the con. The Con can easily be profitable at that level. It was profitable at 4 times the prices at Valley Forge.

Originally posted by Gil
So you have a copy of the contract? Please post it in its entirety so that we may review it.

No, just the policies of the convention center. Its a pdf download on their website if you want to grab it:
PDF link

Section I – Exclusive Services – is the section they discuss their Food and Beverage policy, and that is what I quoted. It also includes the passage that only their exclusive vendor will provide food and alcohol. That's why I think even if you could get around the 'only non-licensed' locations getting a Special Banquet permit that is VA state law, you aren't going to get the Expo to violate their contract with Ballantine Food Management.

Could be wrong though, and its worth a conversation with FEC to find out.

If However you two were correct in that it was not inthe FCC's power to allow us to BYOB then my earlier point that they cannot accommodate this was correct all along.

So you were right before you were wrong before you were right?

No wonder you have so many problems with being right all the time. You choose all sides, so you always come out the winner! LOL.

Q: Where did the numbers come from?
A: HMGS 2012 approved budgets.

Q: You love the VFCC?
A: Actually no, I didn't like it at all, thought it was way too expensive, and the endless hidden games were counter productive.

Q: You love the Host?
A: Hard to say. It is an aging facility with issues, but then again, we have always done well there for attendance, and it is within our budgets to allow the kind of profits needed to sustain the organization. And, since it is HMGS's mission to promote historical wargaming, and the Host seems to do the best for drawing in more people, that seems to be the best place so far. Of course, people can stay where they like too.

Q: As long as we break even, isn't that good enough?
A: No it is not. HMGS is a coproration with all kinds of expenses beyond just any one convention's costs. The bookkeeper and software/hardware alone run over $30 USDk, and profits beyond expense are needed to pay for such things.

Q: The Host was not available?
A: Well, that depends on who you talk to. The same for the Ike. Both cost less than half of the FCC and both offer the same or more amount of space for less money.

By the way, I love English humor. I am glad he had a good time and came over. I am glad Double G's sales have gone up. I cannot see how either has a correlation to where we hold our con though, or what we pay for it. I could be wrong, but those facts are not as self evident as cost and attendance. I have no idea if that was true for all dealers or just some.

To be fair, I would certainly try to attend Hcon if it is back at the FCC next year. I would also again encourage my friends to do the same. I support the organization and have been a member since the late 80s. I understand options are limited on where to go, at least within our budgets. I will point out again that perhaps other than being newer, FCC only has the same amount of space as the Host, so we cannot grow there, only fill the empty space for many of the usuals not attending.

Whatever happens, I wish our organization success.

That is an clear advantage, and I rate it highly, because the games are the most important thing.

They certainly are….. We're known as 'wargamers' for a reason. However, I suspect we could create several splinter groups, such as 'war-shoppers', 'war-watchers' and 'war-debaters'…..

npm

For your edification, Bowman There's a person in this thread that stated they had severe reaction to the Host that included the needed 'for a round of heavy antibiotics.' Am I making that up? Is the dealer who posted that making it up?

As someone employed in the medical field, I have been trained to be suspicious of anecdotal evidence. Your claim for a "reaction" needing "heavy antibiotics" just reinforces it. Antibiotics will not help an allergic/anaphylactic reaction to mold. Since molds and fungi are not prokaryotic lifeforms, rather eukaryotic like ourselves, antibiotics will also not help in the advent of an infection.

Was the dealer making it up? Absolutely not! But I would say he was mistaken on the cause of his infection ( and it would be an infection we are speaking about, not an allergy or asthma). I would guess your friend was suffering from a bacterial respiratory infection, the usual suspects being strep throat to pneumonia, etc. It can't be viral either, since he was given antibiotics. I'll stick with the pneumonia as it produces symptoms very similar to asthma and other respiratory allergic conditions (difficulty breathing, chest rattle, excessive mucus production, constriction of bronchioles, etc.) By "heavy antibiotics" I assume you mean the newer powerful breed? Again, that points to a pneumonia or pneumonia-like infection. I myself was just getting over a small bout of bronchial pneumonia before coming to Otto's Weekend Con and had to take a 5 day course of Moxifloxacin. I'd call that "heavy". Pneumonia is very common, especially as a consequence of regular upper respiratory infections in asthmatics such as myself or your son. Catching an infectious respiratory disease after 4 days exposure to the public at a Convention is by far the most logical cause of his dilemma. And because he didn't catch any thing at the FCC is proof of nothing. It is difficult to not conflate correlation with causality.

I'd be cautious gleaning accurate medical info from testimonials in tripadvisor or bedbugregistry.com, etc. Just by looking at an AC unit you can't tell if it is properly draining or is spewing Legionairres Disease. Remember the disease got it's name from a convention held at the upscale Bellvue Stratford Hotel in Philly. The disease may have started in some of the AC units, but it spread the old fashioned way……by shaking hands and meeting old friends and new acquaintances at a convention.

Sorry to derail the bickering.

My sales were off the charts and I am very happy over that, IMO it was due mostly to the influx of a lot of new customers who came to Historicon for the first time, that is what most of them told me when I asked.

The dealers who attended all took a leap of faith that the show would be good in a new location a distance away from where it had been held for the better part of 15 years.

If the majority of other dealers had the same experience, I am happy to hear that as we all work our rear ends off at these shows; if they did not, I am not the least bit happy as shows that do not generate a profit will not be gone back to by most dealers.

For example, Architects of War were a couple of booths up from me and their set up was a project and a half, they killed themselves for hours to set up their booths and they looked great afterward, excellent presentation, which is why no doubt they did well at the show.

Other dealers have complicated display racks they have to set up and put pegs onto then load all the stock onto those; again, most dealers were there for hours setting up.

If the majority of the gamers who attended had a good time, I am also happy to hear that; if they did not, then again they will stop coming and the show will suffer.

The FCC IMO blows away the Host and the VFCC for ease of getting in and out of there, getting to and from a decent place to eat, the food choices were off the charts numbers wise, the hotels in the area are far superior to those near the Host or the VFCC and the venue is better than the other two, urine and hornet noise issues aside, which again, I hope can be corrected for 2013.

You bring up an interesting point, in that maybe the convention at FCC attracted lots of new attendees, versus larger numbers of the old ones. I know as a frequent attendee I often feel I am seeing the same old things in the dealer area, so perhaps new people bought more of what they had never seen before. That makes sense, though only an analysis of the actual attendees could confirm that idea.

Doulbe G, I am glad you and the others did well. Here is to your continued success. :-)

Dear Double G, I firmly believe that the success of these Cons depend, in no small part, to the hard work and continued financial success of the dealers. Glad you had a good show and I hope everyone else did too.

While I agree with LIG's concept of "let's vote with our feet", I don't wish to see anyone fail, whether it is the HMGS, the individual GM's or Tournament organizers, or the vendors. Especially, in this economy and so close to the financial drain that was the Baltimore move.

Questioning the finances of any Convention site is NOT "sabotage" or attempting to "overthrow the majority"! It's best practice management to keep HMGS viable. For that you need a tolerance for the "loyal opposition" and a tolerance for those fellow hobbyists who wish to air an opposing viewpoint. Some people need to work on that.

I have known LIG more some years now. He has put in countless hours at all three Conventions, over the years, for the benefit and enjoyment of others. While he has always qualified for free admission (as a tournament GM) he has always paid his admission fees, because it helps the HMGS organization. He also attends the BOD meetings at Historicon. Did any of you go this year? LIG doesn't need me to defend him. But, in all honesty, the characterizations of him as a "saboteur", out to destroy Hisoricon and the HMGS, is utterly asinine. As Gil Bates says, we need a big tent. We also need the "fanboys" to be more accepting of differing viewpoints.

While he has always qualified for free admission (as a tournament GM) he has always paid his admission fees, because it helps the HMGS organization.

WAIT – I qualified for FREE admission??? ::::Looking for my past badges to try and get refunds::::: Hehehehe.

Ok, first, the Host IS a dump, but it is good value and a great location for the event…and the criticisms are laughably overblown by some. So one attendee blamed an illness on the Host with no actual evidence to suggest it was the Host that caused it. More likely it was just some disease-ridden fellow gamer. I think the Host is to blame for the crises in the mid-east too. And for every day a child doesn't smile somewhere.

Second, no argument – the hotels are FCC are much nicer than the Host. I don't think anyone argued that. But the Host is in a better location to attract attendees. If FCC attendance comes in where it has been speculated, this is 25%+ below the last show at the Host. This is real data and not anecdotes about someone contracting bubonic plague at the Host.

Worse, if Double G is right and that many new people were there, it means even more old attendees stayed away. You better hope those new people are going to be regulars like the ones who were cast away, because if they were just going to the the show on a one-time kind of thing because it was close then attendance will get even worse.

VFCC showed declines in attendance, but it was also held on a much more difficult weekend. I suspect FCC attendance would have been even less right after July 4 (and the Host too).

So the consensus among our NE 'the Host is the Most' crew is that one of our vendors doesn't even know her own health issues? Wow, that's an impressive level of commitment you guys have to your cause.

Maybe its a regional thing. It would never occur to me to challenge someone's perceptions of their own health, with nary a shred of evidence to back up my speculation.

@Civil – I'm quite surprised that you find new attendees coming is a problem. These events aren't done to be insular. New attendees is a VERY good thing. As evidently the vendors are indicating, as their reports have uniformly been positive. Vendor table $$$ are one of the biggest supporters of the con.

As far as the VFCC conventions being the weekend after the 4th of july impacting attendance, hard to know one way or the other. 2010 that was the next weekend.

My gut hunch is the biggest issue has been the constant moves, and of course the recession.

But no way to really filter out a signal with so many conflicting data points.

For those of you who went how many games were being run Late night (Until 2 or 3 am) on a pick up basis at the Con? That's the real test of how the con was (guys who can't get enough). If a large percentage of the attendees were day trippers, then late night pick up games (the sign of a healthy convention) might be down.

The report given Thursday night at our gaming group was that the number of games available were down (Hence many full or overfull games). We heard that it seemed that the number of the normal game masters were down and not enough of the Southern contingent came for more than the day to run games. If this perception is true and if others like our member who attended and ran several games are strongly considering not going next year HMGS is in for a rude awakening all of its own doing.

My understanding is that there was some confusion the other day as to whether HMGS was a Section 501(c(3) entity with for IRS purposes. It is here is the listing on the IRS list of Tax exempt organizations.

EIN: 52-1463458 Name: Historical Miniatures Gaming Society Location Belair MD United States Status:PC

Civil, I saw a lot of new faces, but I also saw a lot of the older ones too, many of the same ones who told me at Cold Wars that they were not going to Historicon; I guess when it came down to it, they decided to go, the majority of those guys also told me they'd be back in 2013.

Many of the first timers I talked to said they'd also be back; as you and others have pointed out, if attendance drops or stays flat because in fact all you are doing is replacing those who stopped coming with those who started due strictly to the move, not sure how this impacts HMGS.

I hope this location works out in the long run as I am out of ideas as to where the con would move to next; moving it every two years will do more harm than good.

And I'd also like to say I'm sorry to anyone I went round and round with on the traffic in the area and how bad I felt it was; their comments were like any other high traffic area, some times are better or worse than others and all of you were right; I hit VA around 2:45pm on Tuesday on the way down and left the hotel Monday around 9:00am and did not hit a lick of traffic in either direction, so you all were right and I was wrong, sorry about that………

" We heard that it seemed that the number of the normal game masters were down and not enough of the Southern contingent came for more than the day to run games."

What a bunch of assumptions you run on!

Our group all came up from NC and we had a number of GMs included. I know of a bunch more from our area (including a bunch of newbies) who also came and ran games. NOBODY I am aware of came for only a day-- it's too far for that!

I admit this is anecdotal (or eyewitness, take your pick) but I have noticed a shift in attendance over the years at all our cons. I remember back in the early 90s you couldn't find open area for a pick up game Saturday night, now that is no problem. My take is that attendance has shifted earlier in the con, with fewer staying and playing Saturday night. If people leave Saturday afternoon that saves a hotel room night and gets them home for part of the weekend. Just my observations, though others seeing the same thing have commented on it as well.

Unless the Host is a HAZMAT site, mold does not usually cause illness directly. It may set off allergies, that wear down the immune system, as it reacts the same way to allergies as it does an infection. This from a long time sufferer of mold allergies. :-( My advice, take allergy medicine before you stay there, or stay at another hotel. Problem solved. :-)

Agreed; I've also noticed the gaming area not as busy at recent cons Saturday night as attendees are leaving Saturday and not staying the entire weekend………..

I liked the FCC and found it really good site. I had no problem in running my game Fredericksburg river crossing game Friday and found the facilities really convenient.
Probably bought more because of the ease in getting to the dealer area and Wally's basement.
I hope to see every one next year in Fredericksburg.

Do you have pix of your game? Love to see it. :-)

This thread is like an on coming train wreck that you just can't avoid watching. Of course, the posts have mainly been a select few clearly in need of some form of validation of their questionable positions. I have read much that is not substantive, clearly biased, and mostly hyperbole. I do not want to flog this dead horse any further as the corpse had long ago become noisome.

I am ashamed of some of the behavior I have read as you do not see this kind of gain saying and rancor with conventions on the other side of the pond. Or at least I have not read it here on TMP. I am not going to repeat what has already been logically stated and obvious. Support HMGS-East, or don't. Go to Historicon, or don't. Be part of the solution, not the problem.

I have already reserved my room at the Homewood Suite for next year's Historicon. I am looking forward to running as many games as I physically feel I can, plan to spend money in the dealer's area, perhaps have a flea market table, spend the money I make there on the convention, spend time with friends, enjoy the town of Frederickburg, and help where I can if I can.

'nuff said,

Kim

So are you an HMGS member?

"So the consensus among our NE 'the Host is the Most' crew is that one of our vendors doesn't even know her own health issues? Wow, that's an impressive level of commitment you guys have to your cause.

Maybe its a regional thing. It would never occur to me to challenge someone's perceptions of their own health, with nary a shred of evidence to back up my speculation."

Demi, no one is trying to be disrespectful, but it is a pretty bizarre claim that the hotel room made her that sick. I don't question that she became ill. just that it was the Host building that necessarily caused it. If the hotel were really that type of health threat, there would be a lot of instances. You may have noticed that many in our hobby are less than impressively healthy.

"@Civil – I'm quite surprised that you find new attendees coming is a problem. These events aren't done to be insular. New attendees is a VERY good thing. As evidently the vendors are indicating, as their reports have uniformly been positive. Vendor table $$$ are one of the biggest supporters of the con."

I think I was unclear. I think new attendees is a GREAT thing. Awesome. What I meant was that if attendance was down, and there were also a lot of new attendees, it means that even more of the previous attendees stayed away, and THAT is bad.

As far as the VFCC conventions being the weekend after the 4th of july impacting attendance, hard to know one way or the other. 2010 that was the next weekend.

My gut hunch is the biggest issue has been the constant moves, and of course the recession.

But no way to really filter out a signal with so many conflicting data points."

We can filter out the economy when comparing to 2009, as it was at least as bad then. There is no way to be sure that the alternate weekend at VFCC is to blame for the lower attendance, but it is a reasonable theory. Obviously, many people plan vacations that week or have family commitments. I couldn't agree more than the moves and the way it was all handled have driven people away too. No way to determine what percentages were caused by what.

"Of course, the posts have mainly been a select few clearly in need of some form of validation of their questionable positions. I have read much that is not substantive, clearly biased, and mostly hyperbole."

There are a few hard data points here, and a number of posters here simply ignore them in favor of general condemnations of any critical of the location.

1. Fewer dealers, smaller dealer area. That is a fact.

2. Fewer games. Another fact. More cancels. Not confirmed officially, but very strongly supported by multiple accounts on here.

3. Lower attendance. Conjecture at this point, as no official numbers have been released. It seems highly likely that this will prove to be correct.

If a location attracts fewer games, fewer dealers, and fewer attendees, I'm sorry, but that is a legitimate concern. Frankly, anyone who refuses to consider these issues is being a bit biased themselves.

Fewer dealers and fewer attendees (if in fact that is true, we'll see) at Historicon can be viewed two different ways.

Maybe they stayed away because of the move, OR, maybe as the economy is still struggling, perhaps gamers couldn't afford to come this year (several said so on this forum that they wanted to go but could not afford to go); as far as fewer dealers, the dealer hall was bigger at this show than Valley Forge the last two years, specifically last year.

If you are comparing dealer turnout back to the Host in 2009, that is one thing, comparing it to the last two shows is something else.

Dealers go out of business or cut back on the amount of shows they do, I'm seeing this on the toy soldier side of the business at shows; has nothing to do with shows moving, but more to do with dealers retiring/passing away/cutting back on their show schedule.

Again, my sales were up over 60% from Valley Forge last year, so that is encouraging to me.

I have not spoken to a dealer who said they had a bad show and if those who stayed away for concerns over a poor sales outlook hear the same, maybe more will attend next year, nor have I spoken to a customer who attended who said they had a bad time, so again if this word spreads, maybe more people will show up next year.

Regardless, the show will be held there in 2013.

Double G,

You're a dealer, so you have insights I don't. Generally, I am comparing to 2009 at the Host. There were more dealers there, certainly. You may know differently, but the dealer area at VFCC also looked bigger to me. I know of a number of dealers, neither dead nor retired, who were at the Host and VFCC, but not FCC. I know some sat out VFCC because of cost, etc. as well.

I'm sure that the economy suppressed attendance…but I am also sure it did so equally in 2009, which was as bad or worse a year economically.

I'm glad your sales were up despite what looks like lower attendance. If there were a lot of new attendees, I can imagine they spent a lot more than the usual people. Remembering back to my own reaction to the dealer area the first time, I seem to recall losing it and spending like crazy. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out when the new people are repeat attendees.

"That's why I think even if you could get around the 'only non-licensed' locations getting a Special Banquet permit that is VA state law, you aren't going to get the Expo to violate their contract with Ballantine Food Management."

Demi

Thanks for the link and for confirming that it is FCC's policies and profit motive for their "Vendor" and not actually Virginia Law that is the reason that they are trying to limit anyone doing BYOB.

Just goes to show that the difference between being seen as an "attendee" rather than a "guest".

One thing I have always liked about the Host is that they go out of their way to accommodate both our needs and our wants. Plenty of water coolers (Not trying to force us to buy drinks from their vendors); expanding bathroom usage where it makes sense; Allowing guests to enjoy and share with their friends beverages that they have brought (rather than pay bar prices for them); allowing us to game 24/7 if we want to.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not advocating drunkeness at the con, but I'd like to be able to welcome friends that I have not seen in months with the offer of a beer or two at a pick up game. Usually for a Con I will bring a half case (12 bottles) of Sierra Nevada )Pale Ale and share it with friend to the point where maybe I end up drinking 4 of them over the weekend.

The point is we are not a car show nor a convention where there are seminars and then out to party at night. We tend to game and shop, go get some dinner then back for a pick up game by about 8pm or so bring in the cooler and have a few beers while we game. No one is trying to force anyone else to drink. However, the requirement to allow byob is one that the BOD should place on all potential sites for conventions.

LIG, No one "forced" me to do anything. It seems to me there should be 1 "qualification"(for lack of a better term) to read/post on this thread. That would be that you actually attended the Con. I did, seems you went out of your way not to. So why don't you stifle yourself? I'm an HMGS member & a TMP member. I comment when I see very cool things on this site(all the time!) & sometimes when I read idiotic posts by others(this falls in the latter category). If you put 1/3 of your efforts to diss this years show into actually coming to it, you woulda had a blast. But some men can't be reached. So we have what we have here today. Now, I don't like it anymore than you men. But, that's the way he want's it, so, he gets it. About Holien, and others like him, they come from 3 or 4 thousand miles away, spend more cash than I make in 6 months, to be at a show that you won't go to anymore, now that it's 3 more hours away from your beloved Long Island. That's commitment, you're just a .

Civil: "We can filter out the economy when comparing to 2009, as it was at least as bad then. There is no way to be sure that the alternate weekend at VFCC is to blame for the lower attendance, but it is a reasonable theory. Obviously, many people plan vacations that week or have family commitments. I couldn't agree more than the moves and the way it was all handled have driven people away too. No way to determine what percentages were caused by what".

I have struggled with all of your posts trying to compare the past several H-conns with the 2009 year. I think you really need to look further back at H-cons and not use just one year (maybe it is used because it supports your position). I think 2009 had higher attendance for a few reasons. Correct me if I am wrong here, but wasn't that the 25th anniversary of HMGS? Also, most gamers realized it was the last year at the Host. I think those factors really matter. Also in my experience, many of our members fall into job categories that were not as quickly affected by the economy. I think job losses may have come later in 2009 in more skilled positions (total conjecture supported by what I saw with my clients during my day job).

I think a comparison to a period of years or average is a much better metric (we used to have larger shows back in the mid 90's before the addition of a 3rd show – from what I recall). I have attended every Historicon as a vendor since 1998 and I definitely thought the vendor hall was larger at Fredericksburg than the Host. Simply more space which allowed for better movement of customers and all (perhaps the fact that you did not have to push thought the crowded aisles is coloring your opinion of the size of the vendor area or even attendance).

I really liked the FCC and think it is a tremendous location with a great future for our shows. With that said, I do not have a problem with the Host (I just refuse to stay there and will never stay at a hotel of it's quality – I travel a lot for work and have a ton of hotels as clients so I see what is behind the public view on those types of properties).

Civil,
IMO, the dealer hall had more dealers at the FCC than the VFCC. The first year it was at the VFCC, a good chuck of the space was used by Wally's Basement, the second year, that area was empty.

Several larger dealers were not there either year, specifically The Last Square; they were at the FCC.

Also, due to the move from tables to booths, you lost a lot of dealers due to cost.

I could be wrong, but the dealer area at the FCC had more booths and dealers, plus there is room to grow the dealer hall as well.

I agree with Doug, I like the facility a great deal and I see a lot of potential for growth there for future conventions. The facility seems much bigger than the Host and again has the potential to grow.

I really hope it stays there for awhile, such a better overall location than the Host; the "dealer hall" at the Host was a metal shed used normally for tennis that was converted to a dealer hall, the AC was an issue every year I was there, plus the load in and load out was a hassle, the load in and load out at the FCC was a breeze aside from the air not being on so trucks and vans could drive into the facility, they need to can that idea next year……..

"LIG, No one "forced" me to do anything. It seems to me there should be 1 "qualification"(for lack of a better term) to read/post on this thread. That would be that you actually attended the Con."

You Sir are way off base here as to claim to an arbiter of who can and can not post on this blog. It seems that you would like to stifle the free debate and Freedom of Speech for which the Founding Fathers of this nation spent their treasure and blood. Every decent American would call you out on that one. I will defend your right to put forth your opinion and views and will vehemently defend the rights of others to post theirs. That is a much much more important matter than the location of the convention, the continuation of HMGS or even of all of our lives. Without freedom of speech there soon will be no Freedom at all.

@ History Gamer,

Yes, I am a member of HMGS, and have been for over twelve years.

Civil, I am not going to go over your talking points as I doubt I can persuade you of looking at things in anything other than the opinion you, LIG, and others want to hold.

I had a good time at Historic 2012 and enjoyed the FCC as well as the local venue and thought it an improvement over the Host and Lancaster area. Regardless, I will still make the long nine hour drive to Fall In and Cold Wars as time, money, and my duties will allow. I will not engage in derision of those conventions because they are "too far" away. The FCC location was not perfect; however, neither is the Host. Many of the pros regarding the Host posted on this thread seem to want to ignore that it took years of working with the Host to gain the amenities that were lacking at the FCC. The BOD I believe is already working on the post FCC details and we will just have to wait until next year to see how that plays out. I am sure that everything next year will not be perfect. If it does improve I will take that as a positive and continue to support the location.

IG, No one "forced" me to do anything. It seems to me there should be 1 "qualification"(for lack of a better term) to read/post on this thread. That would be that you actually attended the Con. I did, seems you went out of your way not to. So why don't you stifle yourself? I'm an HMGS member & a TMP member. I comment when I see very cool things on this site(all the time!) & sometimes when I read idiotic posts by others(this falls in the latter category). If you put 1/3 of your efforts to diss this years show into actually coming to it, you woulda had a blast. But some men can't be reached. So we have what we have here today. Now, I don't like it anymore than you men. But, that's the way he want's it, so, he gets it. About Holien, and others like him, they come from 3 or 4 thousand miles away, spend more cash than I make in 6 months, to be at a show that you won't go to anymore, now that it's 3 more hours away from your beloved Long Island. That's commitment, you're just a .

About Holien, and others like him, they come from 3 or 4 thousand miles away, spend more cash than I make in 6 months,

I'M SO SORRY!! I am a Putz. Maybe it was the way Holien held the dice. Or the good, hard shake he used to roll them bones. But it's obvious that he touched you in a way that nobody else could. He's your "special friend" and nobody should be able to talk to, or about him, but you.

"I have struggled with all of your posts trying to compare the past several H-conns with the 2009 year. I think you really need to look further back at H-cons and not use just one year (maybe it is used because it supports your position). I think 2009 had higher attendance for a few reasons. Correct me if I am wrong here, but wasn't that the 25th anniversary of HMGS? Also, most gamers realized it was the last year at the Host. I think those factors really matter. Also in my experience, many of our members fall into job categories that were not as quickly affected by the economy. I think job losses may have come later in 2009 in more skilled positions (total conjecture supported by what I saw with my clients during my day job).

I think a comparison to a period of years or average is a much better metric (we used to have larger shows back in the mid 90's before the addition of a 3rd show – from what I recall). I have attended every Historicon as a vendor since 1998 and I definitely thought the vendor hall was larger at Fredericksburg than the Host. Simply more space which allowed for better movement of customers and all (perhaps the fact that you did not have to push thought the crowded aisles is coloring your opinion of the size of the vendor area or even attendance). "

I was using 2009 expressly because it was a recession-impacted year, which makes the comparison to FCC more favorable to FCC.

Honestly, this is what is frustrating to me about this debate, much as it was during the BCC fiasco. I have no quarrel with someone's opinion. But I just don't understand why people seem to ignore hard facts.

Historicon 2009
3,565
link

Historicon 2008
3,667
link

Historicon 2007
3,254
link

I know that record attendance was considerably higher, but I cannot find the documentation online, so I have not posted it.

"Civil, I am not going to go over your talking points as I doubt I can persuade you of looking at things in anything other than the opinion you, LIG, and others want to hold. "

I don't have "talking points." I have an opinion, and also knowledge of certain facts (such as attendance declines). Why does the pro-FCC argument always seem to descend into name-calling and demonizing of anyone who does not agree it is a good location?

I have deliberately refrained from this, but it is frustrating that arguing against the site is branded as some type of character flaw or evil agenda. I have talking points. LIG is a saboteur. This is really intelligent discourse.

The vast majority of the As given to FCC seem to be given by people who live closer to that location. Yet you don't see me accusing anyone of an "agenda."

LIG,
Talk about anybody ya want. I met one gamer at H-Con who left your little group because of . His words, not mine. Your copy of my post, ending with "" just SO proves my point of how correct he must be. "Daddy used to tell me, everything comes down, to what they say about you, when you're not around. I wish that he was here now. I'm sure he would would be proud. Cause no one talks about me know. DBT's"

Gil Bates,
"You Sir are way off base here as to claim to an arbiter of who can and can not post on this blog. It seems that you would like to stifle the free debate and Freedom of Speech for which the Founding Fathers of this nation spent their treasure and blood".
Unless I was a female, a Black man or woman, an Native American or any other color of man with no property. Our Founding Fathers were not Gods, great men, yes, but perfect? FAR from it. They had COMMON sense too. Although, chose to ignore it on more than one occasion. All I was saying was is that "IF" there was just "ONE" "qualification"(for lack of a better term) it "SHOULD" be, you "WENT" to the damn convention. Do you think I'm stupid enough to think LIG would understand that? He's free to post all the tripe he wants, I'm not gonna stifle him, I don't care what the "I wasn't there, I hated it" crowd has to say. So post away. It's obvious, by the sheer vast quantity of LIG's & some others posts, they've absolutely nothing else to do! BTW – The title of this thread is "Historicon Review" right? So how can you review a movie without seeing it? A song without hearing it? A play without watching it? Or a convention without going to it? I know, I know. Don't confuse me with the facts…

whitemanticore,
Agree, 100%!

> I'm sure that the economy suppressed attendance…but I am also sure it did so equally in 2009, which was as bad or worse a year economically.

It was also the first year, rather then year 3-4, perspectives on what is affordable change a LOT after that long of an economic downturn. Only those directly affected by a layoff the first year would probably not have gone, by 3-4 years many more who might still be working would tighten up their spending.

Well, time to jump off this thread with a final note – I'm booked for next year (hope it stays at the FCC) and look forward to another great con then.

Do you think I'm stupid enough to think LIG would understand that?

Truth be told – I'm getting the impression .

I met one gamer at H-Con who left your little group because of . His words, not mine.

This is becoming so sad. Nameless people who hate me? Do I really care?

Seriously, hold a convention with you and your new buddy from the UK – you know, the guy who spends more than you make in 6 months. You two can even use the same dice…Hoooooo

Civil:

I seem to recall Pat Condray saying that all time high attendance used to be around 3,400. I would look under his old posts, as if anyone would keep track of that stuff, Pat would.

I have to agree that everyone is indeed skipping around the past facts. Oh well, you can lead a horse to water… :-)