"Historicon Review" Topic

"The internets – they are forever. I've read through the old posts. I didn't see shouting down. The same crew here bitching about this con was the same one bitching about that one. For the same reasons."

I don't say this to argue, but if you didn't see the shouting down, you didn't find all the old threads. I was there.

"Reading the reviews, it doesn't sound like "whining". People wrote what they thought of the place. That's what a review is…"

Yes, but there are gross exaggerations in play with respect to the host. It would be like describing FCC by saying, I put rags in my ears to stop the bleeding from the deafening noise as I fought my way through the rivers of effluent to reach the disease-infested latrines.

Small seeds of truth exaggerated to the point of uselessness.

Demi,

No disrespect to anyone with sever allergies, though there was less concerned for our weight-challenged and heart-afflicted fellow gamers when someone complained about walking to Wegmans.

The vast majority of gamers can make it to Wegmans and the vast majority are not troubled by the Host, other than to perhaps want nicer rooms.

Thanks, Murphy. I knew someone would post Gencon prices.

You do realize that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Historicon, don't you?

When tracking changes in Historicon attendance you need to pair it off with Historicon costs.

Oh, and if we're using Gencon as a comparison, it gained 2,000 in attendance when it moved from Milwaukee to Indy. That is what a successful move looks like. Another pesky pin in the bubble of, "you always lose attendance the first year."

Did the change for GM's have any impact on the number of games this year?

"Did the change for GM's have any impact on the number of games this year?"

Hard to know Charles, I cancelled the two games I was going to run for several reasons, the main one being a logistical issue which has nothing to do with H-Con, or their requiring that GMs purchase a membership. I think the purchase of a membership is fair and I would have renewed mine anyway.

I am already planning for next year and how I can effectively transport the games I want to run, as well as run a fair number of games. For the record the convention staff have no control over games being cancelled. Things happen and people's plans change just as mine did.

While I did not run any games this year I did attend the convention and the facility does encourage me to gamemaster next year. The table space was excellent in the main gaming area. Some of the side rooms were a bit cramped for my tastes but that is something an experienced gamemaster learns to deal with. As to noise, that has always been a factor anywhere I have gamemastered or played. You get lots of people in a room, no matter how large and the noise level will rise. Perhaps I will bring a bullhorn.

CD – here's an idea. If you are 400 pounds and have arthritic knees, don't walk to Wegmans. I enjoyed the con and never once went to Wegmans – there's literally a hundred restaurants in the area, there's sufficient parking, and yes, you can leave in your car and come back and find parking in close proximity. I did it on Fri and Sat.

I find that considerably different than being exposed to mold if you want to sleep on site – or play in the con rooms.

Perhaps the fact is that in Virginia, it is against the law to have visible mold in such areas:
link

Needless to say, it isn't against the law to walk across the street. :)

As far as the drop in attendance at a new site – we don't know the numbers yet. But a drop is based on last year's attendance at the 'convenient' VFCC. From the preliminaries, the numbers were in that ball park, but we'll have to see the official numbers.

@Whitemanticore: Agreed. A big plus for me was the fact that tables were of uniform height, and I had backup table space that I didn't request nearby to do my force breakouts and have setup options.

> CD – here's an idea. If you are 400 pounds and have arthritic knees, don't walk to Wegmans

NO, DO walk to Wegmans, and anywhere else possible, even if it takes an hour or two. (granted I was only 350 pounds at my highest and no arthritis…)

Civil said:

No disrespect to anyone with sever allergies, though there was less concerned for our weight-challenged and heart-afflicted fellow gamers when someone complained about walking to Wegmans.

Well…hmmm…they complain about walking to a Wegmans which is what, 50 yards away at the most?
But they have no trouble at all with navigating the host?…With their weight, and hearts, and bad knees?

One of the reviews:
"Let me start off by saying that if you have a bad back or other health issues or just hate dragging your luggage up flights of stairs (we were on the 5th floor), this is not the place for you, there are NO ELEVATORS! how they got away with that through the county is a huge surprise"

I find it odd that they are "okay" with lots of stairs but NOT with walking….
Stairs are usually worse on knees than walking…

As an Asthmatic with numerous allergies and high sensitivities to mold who has actually awakened on an ER ICU bed after suffering Resiratory Arrest… I love the Host. I have never had an allergy problem with the Host and haven't had any evicence of it.

In fact the vaired areas of the host allow for anyone who suffers from similar allergies etc. to find a non problem spot.

The Carbon Monoxide described at FCC in some post would be a more serious problem. Also the lack of Bathrooms at FCC (Six Stalls) for any of our attendees who may suffer from incontinence, prostate or irritable bowel problems seems almost inhumane. The Host has plenty of bathroom space and has even used some Ladies rooms and those with Rooms (that are not submerged in mold and swamp) can use their rooms as well.

"Eh? Alcohol was sold on the premises. If you are talking about bringing your own alcohol, yes, it is illegal because of the liquor license issues. It was the same way at VFCC as well, and no doubt the Host, as they have the same basic legal requirement. Perhaps they were better at looking the other way."

Wrong again!

Special Event License in Va for the three days for BYOB

Banquet-Special Event Issued to a duly organized nonprofit corporation or association. A public or private event, conducted for an athletic, charitable, civic, educational, political or religious purpose. Event NOT for personal monetary gain. Beer and/or wine sales; BYOB $40 USD – State license fee
+ $15 USD – Nonrefundable fee
$55 USD – Single-day rate
+ $40 USD – Each additional day

link

God Being right all the time gets sooooo Boring.

the convention also saw attendance numbers close to previous years

Flames of War
link

"CD – here's an idea. If you are 400 pounds and have arthritic knees, don't walk to Wegmans. I enjoyed the con and never once went to Wegmans – there's literally a hundred restaurants in the area, there's sufficient parking, and yes, you can leave in your car and come back and find parking in close proximity. I did it on Fri and Sat. "

Hey, I'm perfectly capable of walking to Wegmans or anywhere else you want. My point is that the "mold" and similar issues at the Host have been ludicrously exaggerated, and people assign great importance to this in order to discredit the Host as an option. Meanwhile, some guys wanders in here and mentions walking to Wegmans, and the subject is disregarded. I think both points are pretty silly, but they are equally silly.

FYI, I'm allergic to mold too, and I've never had a problem at the Host.

Special Event License in Va for the three days for BYOB

Banquet-Special Event Issued to a duly organized nonprofit corporation or association. A public or private event, conducted for an athletic, charitable, civic, educational, political or religious purpose. Event NOT for personal monetary gain. Beer and/or wine sales; BYOB $40 USD USD – State license fee
+ $15 USD USD – Nonrefundable fee
$55 USD USD – Single-day rate
+ $40 USD USD – Each additional day

Hmm.

You think if it stays there a while he'll read it and understand this time that we aren't a non-profit or charitable organization, therefore there are no BYOB options available for HMGS?

link

Nah, its no doubt drowned out by his own perception of the sound of how awesome he is. :D

A public or private event, conducted for an athletic, charitable, civic, educational, political or religious purpose. Event NOT for personal monetary gain.

Ummm…HMGS is not any of th….

Oh snap…demiurgex beat me to it….

@Civil – sorry, didn't mean you specifically, that was a generic 'you.' :) Didn't mean to imply you weren't healthy, just that people who were complaining about a walk normally didn't even need to walk. Granted some people don't have a car, but I'd imagine that's a small number. Heck, there was a shuttle service to the hotel from the con!

As far as the mold goes, clearly its not an isolated issue. There are multiple reports of it, you go to trip advisor and check reviews and mold is mentioned in the 2nd most recent review of the site! And why exactly would a vendor lie about their personal experience? Especially one that is closer to Lancaster than Fredericksburg? The Host has seen better days. For those of us that travel with our spouses, yes, that can definitely be a concern. I have a young son that has had asthma problems, I will not expose him to a place that I know I might cause adverse problems with his health.

So again, wouldn't be opposed to the Host, but wouldn't stay there myself.

I am not however planning on trying to get people to not show up to the con if it does return. :)

Murphy:

Okay, hate may be a strong word. How about dislike? No one is forced to stay at rooms at the Host, that is self selecting, so if anyone has such health concerns, then don't stay there. The Host is an aging hotel, and I suspect Bob Coggins is right that some day it will be torn down. In the mean time we get the most bang for our buck there. And… we get more people. What part of lower costs and more people doesn't make sense?

Senior con officials stated that the square footage is near the same at the FCC and the Host. But hey, what do they know? :-)

In talking with management in HMGS, the Host was indeed offered this summer as was the Ike. So again, we could have gone to either for a fraction of the costs, and most likely – based on past attendance – attracted more people.

To the noise problems. Guys, the FCC is a civic center. You ain't gonna fix that. You might mitigate it to some degree, but it is what it is. If the con did grow, there would be even more noise, right? And again, attempted fixes cost money, and may not work. Makes no sense to pay for something that has never been a problem before.

Coolyork – I have accepted that most of my friends aren't going to Hcon when it moved to VFCC. Yes I would prefer them to go, but my issue is indeed cost, and more importantly, results. As LIG pointed out, we have had a significant decline since we moved. The mission of the Hcon staff back at the Host was to pump up attendance (regardless of costs) to get ready to move to BCC. They did a great job attracting new levels of attendees. The move to VFCC saw a reported 15% decline in attendance. It has never recovered in the subsequent two years. I attended both VFCC cons, and would have gone to this one if my personal vacation plans had worked out a little different. I'd go to FCC next year it were held there. But some who attended have said they would not return. Probably some new people will. That sort of thing is impossible to predict. I can tell you I wouldn't run a game in the main area given the universal noise complaints, even from those that favor this facility.

Having worked on the FOC so many years, I know when you get less income from the conventions, that creates shortfalls in other areas. We have spent enormous amounts of money recently, so yes, ever dollar counts. Part of the problem with past BOD members was they didn't care about the spending, as it wasn't their money. I have been a member of HMGS since the late 80s, have a membership number in the 200s, and yes, I do care about the organization. I have given many hours over the years in its service. So to me, yes it is all about costs and results. If the con had done really well, and there weren't problems with the facility, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I just had lunch with a friend who attended Friday. His take (and he is non-political) is that it is a big tin box, very noisy, not very warm feeling, that a lot of dealers did not attend, and that attendance was down. He came to shop, then left. He said it was not as nice a facility as the Host and VFCC for gaming. Perhaps Bob can add that to his tally. :-)

The FCC is what it is. It costs a lot more than other options, and drew less dealers and attendees. Not sure what else to say. :-(

Oh snap…demiurgex beat me to it….

No worries Murph. I'm sure Gil will thank us for the unusual and stimulating experience of him being wrong.

Wait, HMGS is not a non-profit? Why not? What kind of corporation is it?

@BlackKnight – no, you are correct, its non-profit. I was wro… I was wroooo…. I am incorrect. :)

There still is a possible issue with the convention's liquor license and/or policies.

However, if that wasn't a problem, that would be a better way of addressing the byob complaint.

Hey, thanks Gil, that's an even better way of keeping the con down South. You are Swell. LOL.

Edit: Looked into it. Still no joy – a Banquet license is only applicable if you are serving at a location where there is no current license. So you could not get one for an event at the FEC (or any other convention center that sells alcohol).

FEC has a license, and maintains a policy that all food and beverage sales have to go through their vendors:
FOOD AND BEVERAGE
Ballantine Management Group, LLC is the exclusive provider of food and beverage in
the Facility.
(A) Written permission must be obtained from Fredericksburg Expo & Conference Center Management for sampling of any food and
beverages to event attendees: no exhibitors are allowed to sell food and beverage under any circumstances.
(B) No food or beverage may be carried into the Facility. Outside food and beverage deliveries will be denied access to the Facility by building security personnel.
(C) Use of permanent food and beverage service areas is reserved for the Facility except upon written consent of the Licensor. These stands may not be blocked.
(D) It is a violation of the liquor license to bring alcoholic beverages into or out of the Facility; Fredericksburg Expo & Conference Center reserves the right to inspect coolers, vehicles, R.V.'s, boats, etc. at any time, including during move-in and move-out of show.

So no, no Special Banquet license, as we aren't worth it to FEQ to loose their license.

"civildisobedience 26 Jul 2012 7:42 a.m. PST

The Host is a dump, but the whining about it is so ludicrously overblown it's hard to do anything but laugh.

I've staying in a lot of hotels, and a lot of really, really nice ones. The Host ain't one of them. But trying to act like you get somehow infected just walking into the place is so foolish there is just nowhere to go with that discussion."

8 times out of 10 when I stay at the Host, I end up with a sinus infection or cold. . . and I spray down the room with Lysol and open the door to the courtyard, if I am in one of those rooms, to get some fresh air in there.

I did not get sick at VFCC nor at FCC, and I was just as sleep deprived and immuno-compromised because of it ;-)

It won't stop me from staying at the Host, but I get sick all the time. . . most of my friends do too. There is a ton of mold and mildew in that place.

"The point is the FCC cannot truly accomodate those who would like to have a drink or two with their friends especially when it comes to the wee hours gaming crew"

Legally The Host isn't allowed to accommodate our drinking behavior, but The Host lets us slide.

Be subtle and smart at the FCC and you shouldn't have a problem. Most people I saw gaming there had beers and coolers, into the wee hours.

"Gil Bates

Special Event License in Va for the three days for BYOB

Banquet-Special Event Issued to a duly organized nonprofit corporation or association. A public or private event, conducted for an athletic, charitable, civic, educational, political or religious purpose. Event NOT for personal monetary gain. Beer and/or wine sales; BYOB $40 USD USD – State license fee
+ $15 USD USD – Nonrefundable fee
$55 USD USD – Single-day rate
+ $40 USD USD – Each additional day

link

God Being right all the time gets sooooo Boring."

Then to ease your boredom, you may consider letting the Con staff know about this info for next year. . . very useful info.

Thanks for finding it!

Even if the FCC allowed a special banquet license and BYOB you've now made HMGS liable for breaking VA ABC laws not the FCC. So the genius move here is to dump more liability on HMGS?

Note that applying for the license will guarantee a visit by an agent from the VA ABC. I have to submit for one day and special event licenses with the VA ABC a few times a year. Every time my group is granted a license someone from the VA ABC will show up during the event to investigate how the booze is being stored and served.

If the VA ABC showed up at the last convention and noticed unlicensed alcohol consumption it would be up to the FCC to fix and deal with the consequences. The VA ABC will be MUCH more forgiving of the FCC than a small event organizer like HMGS.

I think the pertinent passage is still 'a currently unlicensed location.' That's where you can apply for a Banquet license -one that is not already licensed.

So 1) the banquet license would have to be viable, so no license currently applicable to the convention center as a whole.

Sounds like the verbiage in the contract already covers that:
(D) It is a violation of the liquor license to bring alcoholic beverages into or out of the Facility; Fredericksburg Expo & Conference Center reserves the right to inspect coolers, vehicles, R.V.'s, boats, etc. at any time, including during move-in and move-out of show.

And 2) even if that isn't the case, there is certainly a vendor under contract to serve liquor in the hall, and the convention center would have to be willing to bypass that contract.

In other words, we know liquor was served, so someone has the right to do so at the center. If its the owning corp, we can't get a banquet license. If its a vendor, they'd raise bloody hell for byob – that's how they get their money.

Which is no doubt:

no exhibitors are allowed to sell food and beverage under any circumstances.

Negotiable? Maybe – but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I was person who first brought up the Penn-Harris. It was not in context of the move to the Host as it being commented on. At that time the move to the host was considered a good thing pretty universally.

I WAS COMMENTING ON THE MOVE FROM LANHAM MD AND ALEXANDRIA VA TO HARRISBURG PA.

Almost everyone who attended at that time were from VA and MD with the 3rd largest group being from NC. The Carolinians were up in arms and made LIG look like a bunny rabbit. For all the squabbling going on, it was much more vicious back then. That move seemed to many a bad idea, but it worked. I've been going to HMGS events since the very first one run by Condray. While not being present at Wally's basement for the famous meeting, I was in the Wally's basement clean up crew that had to get there to clean the basement up enough so they could have their meeting. So I've been there since the beginnig.

On the current topics, the noise at the FCC is being exaggerated. I noticed it and it was ceratinly present as a constant dull roar. It didn't effect me in playing in games or running games. In only 1 game did my opponent comment about having trouble hearing me. The time I had trouble was when my wife was trying to call me on my cell to get directions to the place, so I could give her a hotel key, or trying to make dinner plans the next evening. Cell phone reception in the hall was not very good, so the noise pretty much did in cell phone calls. All in all I graded the convention as a B. Some issues, but let's see next year how they are resolved. I went, played games and had fun.

As for current options, I never minded the host, but I admit that I don't stay in a room at that hotel, I stay down the road. The place I don't like is the IKE and that is actually the closest to me. Traffic is easier to the IKE than anywhere else, but I don't like that location. I will go to Historicon pretty much for the forseeable future, unless I move to Brasil.

Have to disagree here. Yes, there was a lot of debate. The only issue LIG cared about was distance. It made it less convenient for him, so he threw a tantrum.

Show me any kind of research the BoD did in relation to moving the con. They made the convention less accessible for people that supported it for years. They asked for very little input – and all the input they asked for was for show. If the BoD are going to play games, so be it. I can do it too. Don't like it? Too bad.

If it bothers you that much, you're more than welcome to come and speak with me. I'll tell you my side, you'll tell me yours. We'll either leave friends or enemies – the choice is yours.

Demiurgex – I'll make you an offer. You seem to think I'm a nasty and horrible man. Ok – rather than spewing venom all over TMP, why not tell me personally? If you can't make it to Fall In, I'll send you my cell number with a good time to call. This will give you the chance to tell me off and get it off your chest.

This way you can discuss my motives with me directly.

Actually, there is one other thing that afflicted attendance at VFCC relative to the Host. The two VFCC conventions were shoved up against the July 4 weekend rather than in the usual timeslot. I wonder if the numbers at VFCC would have been comparable to the Host if the dates had been the same.

Actually, there is one other thing that afflicted attendance at VFCC relative to the Host. The two VFCC conventions were shoved up against the July 4 weekend rather than in the usual timeslot. I wonder if the numbers at VFCC would have been comparable to the Host if the dates had been the same.

I was waiting for someone to notice that. They put the FCC into a prime slot compared to the VFCC.

LIG, I don't think you are a nasty and horrible man. I don't know you at all. As far as I know, you may be Mother Theresa on the weekends and have 30 adopted children. I even think you are entitled to want 'your' con.

But you know what? I'm entitled to want mine, too.

So when you attempt to harm it by actively organizing a campaign to get people not to go, yes, I'm going to call you on it.

You can say whatever you want about the BOD. I don't really care, I've got nothing in that fight.

Its irrelevant to you actively attempting to hurt something that I enjoy and would like to see continue.

Now one of the mitigating factors is this was an issue that happened some time ago, and I need to take that into consideration even when I'm experiencing discussion that occurred months ago.

However, it is also clear you still feel the same way, and have said you are still supportive of a boycott of a Fredericksburg Historicon, so whathyagonnado? *shrug*

I don't particularly feel the need to get anything of my chest. If you do, you can send me your contact info at demiurgenext@aol.com if you so desire.

Finally, I support the spread of this gaming hobby, and am feeling enthusiastic again about the convention scene for the first time in a decade or more. So among the other things I've done, I've actually helped promote one of 'your' cons at the Host across various websites.

You know, because this is supposed to be a positive experience. That we have fun at. Remember?

I have been to most of the Cons (Cold Wars, Fall In) for the last 5 years (12 of 15 if I were to guess). None of them have been perfect yet I enjoyed them all. I felt this was a very good con and location. Having said this it always amazes me that people in our hobby like to complain so much to no purpose. I would like to point out

1. If the bathrooms were horrible then perhaps instead of painting we should have peeing classes. We are not children so if u make a mess clean it up.
There were 2 sets of bathrooms open when the facility was open….the main ones and the one near the food. Additionally, the ones near the front of the dealer room were closed. One complaint I did have is the bathrooms near the flea market were closed during flea market setup. Come on guys station your attack dogs near the flea tables if you like but keeping those closed so people wouldn't sneak.
2. Fredricksburg had a lot more to do for those of us who enjoy eating(don't all gamers) and going out if you choose to. Heck you could even goto a movie without hitching up the horses.
3. Finally, all of this argueing would have been laughing out of court. First no one knows the numbers(btw when has our hobby only about $$??) R we GW now? (cheap shot jk) But people are acting like they know.
More importantly if you receive information 2nd hand it is heresay and inadmissable. Most of the main arguers for both sides admit they were not there. Yet they make statements from what they heard. Come ON!!! Tell me you don't have an Ax to grind if you are saying it was a failure or success if you were not even there!!

Hear hear!

vonshoot:

I am smart enough to know that the powers that be will do what they will do, regardless of what we think, and often times, regardless of facts. That is the way of life, and especially the history of this organization.

Please note I have not put the facility down other than to quote what those there have said – noise, bathrooms, chairs. I am going by their eyewitness accounts. All my points have been financial, and based on the approved budgets. Those indeed would be evidence in a court. The actuals, no doubt would be more telling – though CW is such a mature con at the Host the budgets should be very close to actuals.

I do think your comment about money is a little cavalier. HMGS is a business. It has to make money to sustain. While they could certainly run their conventions at a slim margin, they had better cut back elsewhere(or charge more) as the bills for accountants and software alone exceed the projected profits of any one of their conventions, and they have a lot more expenses beyond those two. You cannot just look at one convention without looking at the total operation. Each convention is budgeted to make a certain profit, that supports the whole. This is not the federal government where they can just print money. :-)

I am curious though about one thing. CW rooms are budgeted for $7.8 USDk for 47 staff while Hcon (at the FCC) is budgeted for $8 USDk with 74 staff. My point being, our room charges should be lower at the Host since they have rooms that are comped as part of the entire package, whereas the FCC has no rooms to comp, and there is almost double the staff to room. I'll leave that to someone smarter than me to figure out, but then again, the actuals may differ greatly from the budget at FCC since it is a first time con there.

But you know what? I'm entitled to want mine, too.

You bring up an interesting point. I never considered that. In my disgust with the BoD, I didn't consider that particular point. When I read that line, I realized you and I are not that far apart.

I sent you my cell if you want to speak further.

"Every time my group is granted a license someone from the VA ABC will show up during the event to investigate how the booze is being stored and served." That's why you get a BYOB license.

"Sounds like the verbiage in the contract already covers that:
(D) It is a violation of the liquor license to bring alcoholic beverages into or out of the Facility; Fredericksburg Expo & Conference Center reserves the right to inspect coolers, vehicles, R.V.'s, boats, etc. at any time, including during move-in and move-out of show."

So you have a copy of the contract? Please post it in its entirety so that we may review it.

Tell them 1. That we will get our own license 2. Tell them we will use their insurance since that is already in place and calculated into the price of the contract (since they are serving alcohol it has to be.

Red Herrings both.

If However you two were correct in that it was not inthe FCC's power to allow us to BYOB then my earlier point that they cannot accommodate this was correct all along.

Well, I guess I am the oddball of the bunch. This was my 7th Historicon and I thought it was the best of them all. True, the noise level was a bit much and the bathrooms are made for midgets, but otherwise I thought it was great.

Well, I guess I am the oddball of the bunch. This was my 7th Historicon and I thought it was the best of them all. True, the noise level was a bit much and the bathrooms are made for midgets, but otherwise I thought it was great.

Good for you! Different strokes for different folks. I was going to go but Murphy wouldn't buy me lunch.

It seems to me that almost all of the complaints about the Host which became rationales for looking for some place else ended up being true about the FCC. People complained about parking at the host but honestly nobody has ever stated that they could not find a place to park and drove off. The actual complaint was more like "I don't like having to walk all that way from the back lots" Yet seemingly these folks had no issue with the hotels that were 500 feet away. Same with the alleged mold problem I can only say "alleged" problem because I have always stay at one of the motels that is less than five hundred feet away when (which also give complimentary breakfast.) Lastly I heard that this is the only suitable place available, honestly I have no idea if this is true or not, because six or seven years ago VFCC was crossed of the list as a location and yet we magically had two cons there.

You know those Irish. :-)

Anyone that suffers a serious allergy know how bad that can be. To be in that environment for several days can be hellish.

Add to that, mold is exceptionally problematic. It not only can cause allergies, but if you are allergic and in that environment, it can cause infection and disease.

Fungal infections SUCK – they can literally feel like you are dying

For your edification, Demiurgex:

I happen to have severe allergies to mites, dust, mold and grass pollen. I've had the pleasure of going into anaphylactic shock a few times in my life, too. I have stayed at the Host for Historicon for the decade before the "Move Historicon Now!" insanity hit. I have never experienced anything of the sort that you have described. Seriously, in the litigious atmosphere that businesses find themselves in, how could the Host afford to tolerate such a liability?

I'd call "hyperbole", but I see that LIG already called you out on it. Maybe you can play the "Host is going bankrupt/being condemned/being torn down" card next.

dapeters,

Well said. There was a lot of "next level" nonsense flying around earlier, but of course that gets harder to defend with a facility no larger and 25% fewer attendees. It's a "next level," of course, but not so much what they were think of, I suspect.

If people would take a step back, they will remember that the VAST majority of people on here were AGAINST the move to Baltimore, regardless of where they lived. The BOD ignored the people's wishes/protests/complaints, and never really answered a number of KEY questions regarding the vastly increased costs of the site, most importantly its complete incompatibility with how HMGS had traditionally run HISTORICON.

The VFCC was chosen as a last-minute alternative, which was more expensive than the Host, but it had sufficient space and wasn't outside the geographical area favored by many. We got by for a year until the Casino announcement hit, and year two was threatened. Luckily there was a delay to the construction and disaster was avoided. That did leave HMGS with the small problem of no site to host the convention!

While all this was going on, the fine lawyers of Charm City were after HMGS's Treasury, and eventually they, and lawyers of its HMGS' own got a good chunk of it.

You've seen the list of potential new locations, and it wasn't until then that it was appreciated by many people of how likely it then became that HISTORICON would be in Virginia in 2012.

So we find ourselves where we are: a moderately-priced (compared to the BCC at least) site that is well south of previous HMGS summer conventions. It has problems, most of which were only discovered during event (noise, bathrooms). The success of next year's event probably hinges on what the FCC and HMGS BOD and Convention Committee can do to reduce or eliminate those problems.

Will Historicon stay in Fredericksburg? Maybe. But that probably has more to do with its compatibility with wargaming and the events' financial viability there than its physical location.

Well said. There was a lot of "next level" nonsense flying around earlier, but of course that gets harder to defend with a facility no larger and 25% fewer attendees. It's a "next level," of course, but not so much what they were think of, I suspect.

Bowman brought up a point once before – a step down is a "next level".

John (firstvarty1979) is spot on with his post; the VFCC was chosen as a spot only AFTER the Baltimore location fell through and was last minute at best, it's not like after much thought and consideration, the decision was made to have it there, it was held there as a fall back location, nothing more, nothing less.

Historicon is 100% lock solid no chance of leaving going to be held at the FCC, I hope the bathroom and noise issues that many find as a negative are someehow addressed, but short of a renovation/better aim/24/7 staff on hand to clean and wipe and mop, the bathroom situation might be the same in 2013.

As far as the noise in the gaming area; again, not sure what can be done regarding that. Was noise an issue at the VFCC as the games were all held basically in one large room, or in the dillpickle room at the Host, that is a large rooom too is it not?

Fact is are convention centers or large rooms at hotels proper venues to game in, who knows, I attend a small show in Massachusetts called Havoc where the gaming is in one large room upstairs and a smaller room downstairs, in the upstairs room during a full gaming session, it gets loud in there too.

Maybe a sea of urine on the mens room floor and people having trouble hearing in the gaming area are symptoms not of a bad location but are the result of the hobby graying/gamers getting older, none of us are getting any younger………..

Just about everything that can be said about the new venue was said already.

I loved the hotel, parking, Wegman's, lack of steps, other food choices. Really, really loved all that.

I hated the noise in the big hall, the low urinals (which caused the splash all over the floor), and the hideous DC traffic. Really, really hated that.

I had no problems with the folding chairs. The concrete floor had low friction so my tables slid around every time someone leaned on one to reach his ships. I think I'll bring mats along next time to increase the friction (and maybe slightly reduce the noise.) if I can fit them in the car.

What the hall really needs are acoustic baffles on the ceiling. The FCC should invest in that for all their cons.

Although the number of holes in the bathrooms was too low, I never had to wait more than 30 seconds. (Of course, I'm trying to go quickly and get back to my game.)

I never even saw a single water dispenser. Where were they?

Trash cans were too few. AND… how about some recycling bins so that we don't fill up the landfills with thousands of glass and plastic bottles, eh?

Actually, I liked Valley Forge a lot, except that the hotel elevators were small and took forever, there were no nearby food options and my wife's truck got broken into at the NMP on the last day and ALL our stuff got stolen. (A big THANKS FOR NOTHING to the Park Police who took 3 weeks to file the report, never entered the perp's fingerprints into a database, who KNEW that a car got broken into at that secluded spot EVERY Sunday, but did nothing about it, who did not cross check the fingerprints they had against those of a suspect arrested for breaking into cars nearby, who failed to follow up when Barnes & Noble gave them the IP address of the user of my wife's stolen nook. I guess the Park Police have more important things to worry about than grand theft (loss was over $5,000 USD) – like a bunch of unruly squirrels…. but I digress…) At least the perp took one look at my boxes of minis and tossed them aside.

One of the best Historicons ever as far as I'm concerned and I've been driving from mid-TN for the past 10 years!!!

This thread makes me laugh….

It is so over blown. Look at the vast majority of positive reports on the other thread.

The voice of the few (who did not on the whole attend) trying to over throw the silent majority….

Human nature I guess but makes me smile in a sad way….

Just be very glad you have such great cons…..

holien:

perhaps I don't understand the humor. We paid twice as much, got less attendance. Funny? Not really. Maybe I'm missing the joke, or perhaps the joke is on us.

"We paid twice as much"……….as much as what, the cost of the Host?

The Host was not available for 2012.

I haven't seen the attendance numbers yet; less compared to what, Valley Forge in 2011?

My sales were up 60% from Historicon last year, the dealer hall seemed busy to me the entire 4 days I was there, the gaming area was crowded at night, the flea market was crowded too.

What are you basing your numbers (cost and attendance) on, just curious is all…………