"Historicon Review" Topic

I'm confused. It appears that basically you are upset with the way the BOD is running things and picking the locations of the cons. And I can certainly see your point. However, why just boycott HCon? If you really want to hit the BOD in the pocketbook, then shouldn't you boycott all of their cons? Doesn't seem very effective to only go after one of their 3 cons.

Very simple – HCon is the one they've fooled around with the most. From the BCC, to the VCC and now FCC. All this done in reactionary mode.

Actively calling for a boycott of the membership so the convention fails and is relocated closer to you isn't an attempt at sabotage? It isn't an aggressive action?

That's sabotage?? Hardly. Agressive?? C'mon now – you're joking. I'm starting to wonder if you've been watching too much Little House on the Prairie. I view it as an action that says I've had enough of this nonsense. You're not listening at the membership meetings so guess what – there are other ways to get your attention. I don't believe in rewarding stupidity – .

I strongly believe that the current BoD is broken – in a big way. John and Heather should have been voted out because of their involvement with the BCC fiasco. Yet when I say hey, this is baloney, move it back – you want to jump on me in a big way – why? Because it's in Virginia – closer to you. If the current list of issues the FCC experiences happened at the Host, there would be a riot. I see two different sets of standards and I think it's funny.

I do agree with Nazrat – let's wait for the final numbers to come out.

Throwing stones at the BoD is not helpful, especially if you espouse to "love" and support Historicon and the other cons. The BoD is made up of 7 elected folks that we as members chose (if you bothered to vote). These folks give of their time to run things as best they can. Have mistakes been made in the past? Of course. However, it's done and over with AND the best thing you can do is to attend or not at your choice, and offer constructive criticism to the Board. I have found members of the BoD to be responsive to my questions and open to my suggestions if I am willing to not have those discussions at conventions where the BoD is insanely busy and I am willing to be civil in my tone during those discussions.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to throw stones. Heck, what's an 80,000 fiasco between friends? Here, take more of my money to fix your screw-up. This isn't elementry school – you don't get the A for effort. I'd love to see what would happen if someone at the Warstore messed up and it lost 80k.

If you disagree with the relocation of HCON to the FCC, then I would strongly urge you to get the criteria that is used to select the sites from the BOD, put your personal feelings aside and embark upon your own search. Many members of the BoD have wonderful memories of HCON's past held at the Host. I think they look forward to at least one round of Hall pig during the convention. It's not about "we hate the Host and are never going back there". It's about what works best for the organization. AND since the Host is not available until 2015 for the date range set for HCON, it's just not in the cards at this time, no matter how much you love (or hate) the moldy, old, multilevel rabbit warren.

Wow, calling the Host a moldy old multi leveled rabbit warren? Yet earlier you said it was fine for the other two conventions? Tell you what – how about the BoD make available the list they used, the sites they visted and how each loaction scored. Not to be mean, but this was the same line you used when the BCC was announced.

LIG ,Civil, etc.. I'm just curious ! Lets say the numbers come back and there better then last year and the dealers are happy as well. Then next year 2013 there are more people and the dealers are still happy . I know I'm geting a bit crazy here but what if ? Then what ?

LIG ,Civil, etc.. I'm just curious ! Lets say the numbers come back and there better then last year and the dealers are happy as well. Then next year 2013 there are more people and the dealers are still happy . I know I'm geting a bit crazy here but what if ? Then what ?

You've answered your own question. I'm wrong. That being said… what scares me more is that the BoD didn't have the numbers or the data to prove themselves right about the move. So if you're right… we have one move that lost 80k. We have another move that was successful (that's yet to be seen). What's going to happen the third time?

Now let me ask.. what if we're right?

LIG

"If the current list of issues the FCC experiences happened at the Host, there would be a riot."

I don't know that I agree with you on that. Like I said we all went along fat and happy till they moved the con on us. The host is older but it caters to us.
None of this -"Did not read PEL about beer and was told about it as I was finishing off my beer I had got from Wegmans. "- at the Host.

All of the Host's problems existed or were addressed over the years. And there were no riots just a minority that wanted to move it. Most were happy as clams. The Host older but so are we.

Bottom line is that it is political as is the support of HCON being in Fredericksburg. That will always be the case. There was no real practical reason to move in the first place. If the host is not available it is the BOD's fault as they gave up our preferred spot.

Do you suppose that those claiming it would not be available until 2015 were to authorize a recon to see if the Host could Accomodate us any time from June 15 until August 15 in each of the years claimed to be unavailable? Of course not.

NJ Con was great, the Weekend in Lancaster was great even got two games in last Saturday.

In the end the review that Civildisobedience gave in the beginning seems the most balanced not all positive or negative and none of this "give it 5 years and see if it works" drivel. When it comes to a convention site. It either works or it does not. From all the reviews pro and con my take is They seem to need more bathrooms and better chairs but most of all the claim that the game masters could not hear or be heard without extreme effort is concerning. Also the fact that the solutions to all these problems will with be more expense. Will FCC or HMGS bear that expense? Also the beer thing is a bigger negative than one may think at first. It either means that they can't accomodate us or don't want to. They need to get a byob license.

Like so many others, I missed the convention (the first Historicon I missed since I moved from Ohio to York PA in 2001. However, my absence had nothing to do with the venue or change in location. The weekend conflicted with the annual induction ceremonies of the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown NY.

If there is one thing I like better than playing games with toy soldiers, it's watching a Cincinnati Red (Barry Larkin) get inducted into the Hall of Fame.

I will try to make it to Historicon next year -- no Reds going into the Hall for sure in 2013!

"If the current list of issues the FCC experiences happened at the Host, there would be a riot."

I don't know that I agree with you on that.

Let me clarify Gil – if the current FCC laundry list happened at the Host, Mattes and crew would have been out with their "Move Historicon NOW" buttons and signs in a heartbeat. They would have been screaming "it's too small". But since it's the FCC, the attitude is "It's OK. FCC's OK. I'm OK. We'll work on it".

Now Now LIG,

Mattes? Mattsy? Nah he'd never do that! He'd be fair and unbiased the image of impartial, Like Solomon on his Throne (Not that kind of throne from what I hear of the FCC bathrooms. The Host however did open the ladies rooms to us a few times and they were kind of nice.)

The only button involved would be his cute little button nose twitching with delight as he said. "Great venue for gaming although not perfect lets just try to make improvements, give it a chance." You think different?

The only button involved would be his cute little button nose twitching with delight as he said. "Great venue for gaming although not perfect lets just try to make improvements, give it a chance." You think different?

Oh, not at all…

Murphy:

I am enjoying our exchange, one Irishman to another. :-)

You said (regarding floor space at the Host vs FCC):
"I'm not sure on this one and I think it's arguable…I do think the FCC is bigger."

I am going by what senior con managers told me. I'll trust their opinions on this one.

"Easiest way to figure it out is to simple contact both sites and request floor space (total), and floor space (convention)…and see what it comes out to."

I would not do that, as to me, that is overstepping a boundry. I am not HMGS, and they don't need a hundred members mucking up their relationships with con sites.

Regarding numbers: "How do you know?…Once again..the numbers have NOT been released…this statement of yours is pure speculation and opinion."

Because having worked for many years for HMGS, I know that the Sunday numbers are in the ballpark. If they had topped last year's attendance, or even thought they did, they would be crowing (rightly so) from the rooftops. And again, overall numbers are meaningless. Look at paid attendance as they are the people who pay for the thing, not the looky-lous.

Regardind drapes blocking the view of games: "Would it?…once again..speculation and opinion…."

Yes, it would. :-) In fact, it would undermine the entire idea of putting this on in a big room.

Regarding carpeting: "No…I'm thinking less worn…less stained..and some of it not moldy, or covering mold…."

So now you show your true colors, you are one of the handful of Host/Ike haters. Okay, that is certainly your right, just as it is mine to point out that FCC is short in a number of areas we are used to. I prefer not to stand on concrete all day, and even rolled carpet without padding underneath really doesn't help, maybe with noise. Maybe. I thought the same of BCC when I viewed it in a walk thru with senior staff members way back when.

"As I said…and as others have said…IF you can find a better place then let the BOD know…."

Better than FCC? I would have prefered the Ike or the Host, given their track records, cost and space. I grant you they both have problems – every site will. But you cannot argue with the success we had at the Host, that hasn't been achieved now in over three years. You, and others, are speculating that the physical problems with the FCC can be overcome, and that it will grow. Both are big "ifs." I don't have to speculate on the success of Hcon at the Host.

We heard for years that if Hcon were just held at a nicer facility than the Host that the hordes (got it right this time) will come forth and wargaming will flower across the land. Or something like that. Well, those people got their wish – for three years now. The net result has been more expensive venues with less attendance. So, how is that working out so far? I know some people will deny the sun will come up in the East. I have the facts of past cons, you have a gut feeling this will grow. Other people were equally convinced that BCC would too, and just as sure of their convictions.

Bob Coggins was sure that hordes (there!) of military people would show up from the Hampton, Norfolk area. Soooo, how'd that work out? He, and others, were sure that hordes would show up at Timonium, another concrete floored tin shed with inadequate bathrooms that also lost attendance, and money.

I'll look at the budgets to see how they are accounting for their costs too. Painting U, mailers, and other things.

Oh one more thing about the Host. It has been suggested that it has lost parking, and indeed it has some. But, is the logic we would draw more people there than the recent con at FCC, so we can't return because too many people will attend and there won't be parking? Interesting conundrum there. :-)

Rather interesting to read all of these partisan comments, then to read a posting from a relative outsider, Holien, who in spite of it all came over and had a whale of a time.

Remember guys, it's all about the gaming. I went to the show and saw a huge room full of gamers having fun. What more do you want?

What more do you want?

Next weeks winning lottery numbers?

Yes, it is all about gaming. But is also about running a sustainable non-profit business and making logical decisions. That said, I don't really know the people on the BOD, but I am sure they are all good people doing the best they can.

Soooo, with that said, let's go to the budget numbers. I will compare the budgeted expenses for CW at the Host, with budgeted expenses for Hcon at the FCC for 2012. These are not actuals, but given how long HMGS has been doing this, they should be reasonably close.

Advertising. Yes, they put that back to the convention. Good move. Hcon: $15 USDk, CW $6.5 USDk. Over twice the amount (new facility, I get that) but the results were about the same amount of attendees as CW.

Facility (rental). This one is gonna hurt you FCC cheerleadeers. Hcon: $23 USDk. CW $9.8 USDk. Or, more precisely, the Host space costs only 43% of what the FCC costs (roughly).

Table rentals: Hcon: $11 USDk for 552 tables and 1,000 chairs. Someone said they were free. I dunno. CW: $8.7 USDk for 1000 tables, no chair fees. Hmmmm. Twice the amount of tables, and free chairs at the Host.

Hobby U is not on the books for either, which does not seem kosher to me. It is budgeted for $7 USDk for the entire year. There was some controversy with this program a while back as the instructors were getting free meal vouchers, rooms and admission. The controversy was whether that would be charged to the con staff costs or come out from somewhere else. The budgets have no visibility on that so I cannot say where that is today, or if all the costs associated with it are covered. Again, big fan of the program, but it should be divided among the conventions where they are run to get a more accurate of the convention costs.

So to sum up, based on the budgets (not actuals), FCC costs over twice as much as the space rented from the Host for CW (may be higher for the old Hcon in summer). We are budgeted for more money for tables at FCC (20% more), but get only about half in return, and we also pay for the folding chairs, while the nice chairs at the Host are free.

Someone else can dig up the actual attendance from CW and compare it to the "reported" numbers from Hcon. I suspect they are about the same.

So tell me again why FCC is such a good deal? Oh, the moldy carpeting. The lack of that is easily worth $13 USDk more. :-)

Also, to put the income in context of what else it is used for, in FY 11, the accountant was paid over $14 USDk, and the other big expense went to software/data base which also costs over $14 USDk.

So you tell me which facility is cheaper to run conventions at for the same amount of people?

Well LIG I would say after next year someone should fine a different site . If its the Host again so be it . However what do we do if it goes back to the Host or vicinity and it does not do any better ? Then what ? ah ha.. take that .

"LIG ,Civil, etc.. I'm just curious ! Lets say the numbers come back and there better then last year and the dealers are happy as well. Then next year 2013 there are more people and the dealers are still happy . I know I'm geting a bit crazy here but what if ? Then what ?"

If attendance rebounded to the levels seen in 2008 and 2009 at the Host I'd admit I was wrong about the ability of FCC to draw.

It is interesting, though, that no one seems prepared to acknowledge any sort of failure if the numbers were 2600 or 2700. Anyone who thinks the move is bad is expected to admit they were wrong the instant there is any increase in attendance, but the move gets constant excuses and more chances. There were fewer dealers. There were fewer attendees (pending confirmation). That is hard data, no propaganda.

"I've heard "The Pen Harris" and the move from thence to the Host bandied around a bit on this thread. I was there and remember it well."

Ahhhh….yeah. Well, you see, the move from the Penn Harris pre-dated TMP and most common usage of the Internet, so I'm pretty sure you didn't follow those debates here.

However what do we do if it goes back to the Host or vicinity and it does not do any better ? Then what ? ah ha.. take that

Well, then we're both shafted, wouldn't you agree?

So to sum up, based on the budgets (not actuals), FCC costs over twice as much as the space rented from the Host for CW (may be higher for the old Hcon in summer). We are budgeted for more money for tables at FCC (20% more), but get only about half in return, and we also pay for the folding chairs, while the nice chairs at the Host are free.

Someone else can dig up the actual attendance from CW and compare it to the "reported" numbers from Hcon. I suspect they are about the same.

So tell me again why FCC is such a good deal? Oh, the moldy carpeting. The lack of that is easily worth $13 USD USDk more. :-)

Also, to put the income in context of what else it is used for, in FY 11, the accountant was paid over $14 USD USDk, and the other big expense went to software/data base which also costs over $14 USD USDk.

Good catch – I didn't see that. I can't wait for the actuals to come in!

It is interesting, though, that no one seems prepared to acknowledge any sort of failure if the numbers were 2600 or 2700

Of course not. There is no definition for "failed" or "acceptable" on this project. It's all a sliding scale for the BoD. If people showed up, they considered it a success.

Here's a thought maybe the days of 3000 plus is over with . I personaly know a lot of just folks that have learned a big lesson about spending these past couple years and most agree that there will be fewer trips etc..in there budget for the future . Civil if it ends up back at the Host and things dont get better then what ? Just saying !

If it were to return to the Host, and not do any better, you pocket the difference and stay there. You'd have achieved the same results for less than half the amount of money. Does anyone here run their own business as there really seems to be a lack of dollars and sense (not a typo).

Coolyork,

If it ends up back at the Host and things don't get better I would say the damage done by the BOD these last few years was permanent. But as HG says, it would still be a cheaper venue. Don't forget that funding these moves and the attendant profligate expenses has resulted in increasing the registration costs. Yes, it's still a good deal for the whole weekend, but more is more, and economics says that price increases cost you customers. Hotel costs are also marginally higher (and were also so at VFCC). $15 USD or $20 USD in registration and even $10 USD a day for hotel is an extra $60 USD, not a lot of money, but statistically meaningful.

I don't know how reparable all of this is, but I can say that a number of people I know who did not go this year would have gone to Lancaster.

But again, we're pursuing this into a spiral of hypothetical after hypothetical. All the data points to Lancaster as a better location. It is cheaper. It has generated attendance levels in excess of any of the other venues, and it did this in an economic environment at least as bad as today's.

That cannot be refuted with logic.

There is no logical basis to assume that the days of 3,000+ are over. The only variables have been the locations and the accompanying cost increases. This is 100% self-inflicted damage.

Look, to be perfectly honest, I don't mind FCC all that much. It's a crappy drive, but I could live with it. I'll makes sure to reserve early and consign someone slower to the hinterlands. But the problem is that lots of my friends won't be there. They didn't go this year and I doubt they will go next year.

I honestly feel that this has been terrible for the convention.

"Look, to be perfectly honest, I don't mind FCC all that much. … But the problem is that lots of my friends won't be there. They didn't go this year and I doubt they will go next year."

My sentiments exactly. Aside from my friends not going, honestly, I am only looking at this from a business perspective.

Here is the easiest option to add more restrooms to the site – portable restroom trailers. I have seen these used at fairs and large events. Take a look: royalrestrooms.com (this is just one example).

So the restroom issue can be easily overcome!

You are obviosusly a good business man, as you have been around a long time in a hobby that has seen many come and go. Most problems can be overcome – with more money. But we are already paying over twice as much on this place, achieving less attendance, yet now we need more money for fixes we didn't need at the other cheaper places we left. Does that make any sense to you? I bet that's not how you run your business.

So let me ask you this. How about we increase the dealer fees by 25% to pay for all the fixes at the FCC? I am being serious, as someone has to pay for such things, as money doesn't grow on trees. HMGS depends on making a profit from all its cons to pay for other organizational expenses. I'm not interested in paying an extra dime to make up the short-comings of this facility.

Remember, your pottie trailers will need servicing, which cost even more beyond the rental fee. Just wanted to make sure you were accounting for all the costs.

Don't forget to add in the costs of carpet and drapes to fix the noise problem that so many complained about (100k sq feet of floor to cover), and extra cleaning crews for the existing bathrooms too.

Yes, fixes can perhaps be found, but we are already paying a premium for this facility, and fixes will cost even more.

Okay historygamer, I understand the point of increased costs, but it is not like the show will move back to the Host anytime soon (even if it could find a weekend without conflicts). So if not there or the FCC, where? Out foot print is too large to fit into moct conference facilties and other places out there. Our demands for all related aspects we have grown used to at our shows is also hard to meet at most locations. So what to do?

One is to look at options to stay where we are, or the other one is to cut back the size of our shows so we can fit into the type of facility we want/enjoy? Historicon has become a "big tent" and has changed a lot from 10 years ago. Now we have more games, larger tournament and FOW areas, the painting university, and tons of non historical games. What do we cut to get back into the smaller space? We will either have to deal with the changes a new facility brings, or we will have to make some hard decisions of what "belongs" at our future shows. Which way should the discussion go?

Many have stated that the Host is booked. My understanding is that is no longer the case. We also ran many successful cons at the Ike, which is now being offered at a 30% discount, or less than a third of what the FCC is charging. I think we could come up with many fixes there with the difference in money.

The FCC's strength was in the surrounding hotels you can walk to, which is good (especially if can get a room at one of them), but it's apparent shortfalls are in the facility itself.

If I were King of HMGS for a day, I'd say run back to the Host, keep the costs low for everyone, keep your eyse open for other facilities.

At last and current count the idea of returning to the Host or Ike is being promoted by fewer than 10 gamers. So too was the still-born idea of a competing convention in Lancaster as well as the disappointing NJ convention.

A N.Y. Times writer once said I don't know how Reagan got eleceted, I don't know anyone who voted for him. Now you guys are wrtiing I don't know how Fredericksburg was successful, none of my friends attended. I'm sorry we cannot regain the past but as time passes my guess than some, perhaps the majority of your gaming friends will find their way to Fredericksburg.

You might btw run for the board on the platform of returning the convention to PA. Good luck.

Bob Coggins

Civil, Hist. etc..
The underlying theme of your argument seems to be many of your "friends" either wont or cant travel if Historicon is not at the Host or near it . Now on the surface you argue the money, the money . Unless your getting a kick back from the Host :) or are secretly invited to some end of the year Beerfest for HMGS that the rest of us are not privy to, what do you care what the bottom line is as long as they dont loose money . It is not your business ,its your hobby .And to clarify its not "anyones" hobby its "everyones' hobby .For God sake take a breath ,go to Fall In and enjoy yourselves.

P.S. Your friends should still be proud you guys looking out for them and all.

Well, here is a perspective from my time there as a dealer. I loved the show and had a great time. I did not notice the bathrooms being any worse than normal and the food was fine for me in the dealer hall--not the best BBQ I have had but not too bad. I loved that Dudley and crew had demo areas available for dealers and my dad and I took advantage of that.

More importantly I gained lots of NEW customers and also had most of my usual customers come by. I did not notice many of the normal crew I see not there. The result was my best Historicon yet and certainly my best take from an HMGS con thus far.

I am planning to get a small carpet to have at my booth next year to save my feet, legs, and back but overall, I would rate H'con this year a huge success and a lot of fun. I am already looking forward to next year.

David

"At last and current count the idea of returning to the Host or Ike is being promoted by fewer than 10 gamers. So too was the still-born idea of a competing convention in Lancaster as well as the disappointing NJ convention.

A N.Y. Times writer once said I don't know how Reagan got eleceted, I don't know anyone who voted for him. Now you guys are wrtiing I don't know how Fredericksburg was successful, none of my friends attended. I'm sorry we cannot regain the past but as time passes my guess than some, perhaps the majority of your gaming friends will find their way to Fredericksburg.

You might btw run for the board on the platform of returning the convention to PA. Good luck."

That is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. You think only ten gamers would be glad to see the convention back in Lancaster? Apart from the surface absurdity of that comment, do you have the slightest basis for that determination? Or are you just counting the number of people who posted on a thread on one web site and assuming that is the entire universe of gamers who are upset about the move.

Let's start with the 900+ who have bailed since they started moving the thing around. Yeah, yeah, I know…attendance drops in the first year at a new place, and the economy, and it's an even year, and the moon is in the seventh house…

There are unending excuses, of course. But it's only ten people who are upset. The other 900 are just stuck in DC traffic.

It should be easy to verify if the Host has any appropriate time slots available, but every post from anyone with any level of knowledge on the topic to this point has indicated that the site itself is not available in 2013.

The cost of FEC is more than the Host, but personally I find it a better site, irregardless of geographic location. The cost of FEC is $20 USDK less than VFCC. The profitability of Historicon took a huge hit from the move to Baltimore – but wasn't particularly profitable in Valley Forge, either, with additional hits in attendance. And a quick browse through the forums show that the same NE faction that complained about Baltimore welcomed the move to Valley Forge. Clearly, that was about distance. Particularly amusing was one of the biggest proponents of 'it has to make money' saying explicitly it was nobody's business what the numbers were when it moved from Baltimore to Valley Forge.

Ultimately, the con needs to find a home, and there are lots of benefits to the FEC site, including the stated advantage of attempting to expand the membership base in that region. It certainly can be profitable at that site – and if people in the NE choose not to attend, it should bring up numbers at Fall-In and Cold Wars as well as more seek out those venues.

However, success at FEC is not a given, and they really need to address the noise issue compared to other sites. The most important thing is the games. If those are impacted, then growth won't occur, and indeed it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as obviously the noise level is tied to the crowds. If noise abatement is too expensive, it does make more sense to move the con back to where it was traditionally successful – IF that site is available.

That being said, much of the complaints have not been due to these issues, but instead simply because the con has become less convenient to a part of the constituency. If handled with grace I might have been sympathetic. But attacking the con in hoping it fails so that it gets moved is less than graceful, to be mild.

Coolyork,

The fact that most of my friends were not their is a subset of the fact that close to a thousand regular attendees have bailed on this convention in the last three years as it was moved. Those are numbers, and they can't really be argued with, so every one of these discussions devolves into nonsensical trivialities or personal attacks.

I don't think HMGS should move the convention back to Lancaster because a few of my friends are unhappy. I think they should do it because hundreds of gamers are voting with their feet and staying away. I know. There are 50,000 reasons why attendance is through the floor, none of which have to do with moves or location. Why would anybody think the only thing that has changed is responsible for the drop in attendance? Can't imagine.

Civil – when it was held in Valley Forge two years in a row, did attendance begin to move up again? My understanding is that it took a big hit when it went to Baltimore – then took another 15% hit when it went to Valley Forge, and the numbers didn't significantly recover the next year.

Having it in PA did not address your concerns. Either less people are capable of affording the hobby, or the problem is the constant moving itself. If the later, then it needs to stay put, yes?

Your argument that the economy is irrelevant between 2009 and now doesn't necessarily hold water. Wealth isn't a function of a single year, its accumulation over time. It could well be that people aren't going as much because of the cumulative impact of a weak economy, as opposed to any one single year.

The dealers certainly seem positive over the new venue.

It can work at this location – IF the noise issue is dealt with.

But I concur, that's a deal breaker, and if mitigating that is too expensive, I'd back a move to another site. The benefits of FEC are many, but the most important thing is the gaming environment.

"That being said, much of the complaints have not been due to these issues, but instead simply because the con has become less convenient to a part of the constituency. If handled with grace I might have been sympathetic. But attacking the con in hoping it fails so that it gets moved is less than graceful, to be mild."

Demi – you were not here when this debate began. There were many people posting on the problems with Baltimore and the idea of moving the convention, but they were shouted down by an almost medieval attitude that anyone opposed to the plan was some type of heretic.

The people who argued against the move were proved right in almost every particular.

I went to Fredericksburg, I rated the place honestly as I saw it, and I have discussed real issues, as have others.

People choose to fixate on LIG's calls for a boycott, but if you care to read all of the old posts about this, his attitude developed after an extensive debate that created a lot of frustration.

But the bottom line is that probably 900 gamers have bailed since they started moving. No one seems to want to consider that, preferring to take issue with the statements of a few people.

Murphy said:

Regarding carpeting: "No…I'm thinking less worn…less stained..and some of it not moldy, or covering mold…."

To which Historygamer replied:

So now you show your true colors, you are one of the handful of Host/Ike haters. Okay, that is certainly your right, just as it is mine to point out that FCC is short in a number of areas we are used to. I prefer not to stand on concrete all day, and even rolled carpet without padding underneath really doesn't help, maybe with noise. Maybe. I thought the same of BCC when I viewed it in a walk thru with senior staff members way back when.

First off, I am enjoying this debate also…as long as we are civil and stop pointing finger, accusing each other, and putting words in others mouths…

Now, you've accused me of "showing my true colors and being one of the "Host/Ike Haters"…

????

Okay…You want to make that statement? Fine…SHOW ME, CITE ME, REFERENCE ME, anything at anytime on this site where I have said "I HATE The Host"…

I've said no such thing, not at all.

Many of the "good folks" that are the most vocal about "Keeping at The Host", don't stay there. They stay in a nearby hotel, or are close enough to drive home each night, or it's just a day trip to them, (Come down, do my stuff, get home in time for dinner), or they really don't mind staying in dumpy cheap hotels… So they really could give a flying flip less over things like "mold" on the carpets, floors, bathrooms, etc…
"As long as you get yours, you're okay."

Unfortunately I am one of those folks that suffer issues from moldy/"sick buildings"…Ever had an allergic reaction when you go to a game store? I have…It sucks…

Obviously going by the post made by WarStore Sweetie, she seemed happy not to have to get a dose of injections because of the issues with The Host.

There's probably other folks that have issues with it also to varying degrees…

Want to read some of the google reviews on it? Here you go:

"The bathroom was dirty. There were extension cords in the room connecting the lights. The air vents were dirty with mold and cob webs."

"Let me start off by saying that if you have a bad back or other health issues or just hate dragging your luggage up flights of stairs (we were on the 5th floor), this is not the place for you, there are NO ELEVATORS! how they got away with that through the county is a huge surprise"

"The bathroom is a total disaster, old, worn moldy and cracked also no fan, so after a shower the very small bathroom is like a steam room. The bathroom sink was cracked and moldy, the cold water did not work"

These are just a few of the reviews that can be found about it…so I guess I'm not the only one that has issues with the mold eh?

And as we have discussed, and discussed, and discussed…
Simply put…The Host has said that they are NOT available for the time frame that HMGS wants until "at least" 2015…which means that if you DO get any type of area for a con, you end up switching dates, and possible having to "share" space, with something else (such as a cat show or something), or perhaps getting less space.

So we know the following: FCC is going to be the site for 2013 HCON…
What options does this give you?

1: As I said..you can go and try to enjoy yourself…or at least see for yourself…

2: You can not go and save yourself time and money for Fall In, or another con….

3: You can not go and just sit home and gripe about it….

4: You can get active and research alternate locations, (you might even be able to find something "BETTER THAN THE HOST" in the nearby area. That would be good, wouldn't it? Or are you so dedicated to The Host that you wouldn't even consider that?), and present the alternative for "future conventions to be held here…

5: You can get active on the BOD, or work within the organization to get it moved back.

The Host has problems…(which have never been fixed, or if they ARE fixed, it takes literally…years, for them to be responsive.), but I don't hate it. I just believe that it simply is maxed out / overwhelmed in it's support capability to handle HCON…thus, one of the reasons for the previous indifferent attitudes.
I've been to worse hotels…Ever stayed in a room that had steel plates put on the doors to keep them from being kicked in? Ever stayed in a hotel room that had bullet holes in the walls?
Ever stayed in a hotel where they were filming an "adult multi-male, single girl performer" movie in the room next door?
Ever stayed in a hotel where your girlfriend is standing on the balcony trying to get a signal on her cell phone to call her mom, only to be told by the cops to "go back into her room, because if she comes back out on the balcony again, they will consider her "advertising", as a prostitute?
Yeah…

There's worse places….but there are also better places…

So let's try to find one.

And stop telling me "what my true colors are"…You simply don't know…and are assuming…and we ALL know what happens when you assume….

Demi,

I thought VFCC was an OK facility(just like I think FCC is an OK facility). But it was more expensive. And the whole move was handled in a very bad way that created some bad feeling.

The Host is a little cheaper on rooms, and it is cheaper overall, which means admission could go back to maybe $20 USD instead of $40 USD or whatever.

Someone will now post that Origins or Gencon is more expensive, but price increases always drive away customers.

I'll be honest, I was surprised that VFCC lost so much attendance. I guess the confusion and craziness took a toll. And of course the higher costs.

None of this -"Did not read PEL about beer and was told about it as I was finishing off my beer I had got from Wegmans. "- at the Host.

IMHO, If you need to drink beer while gaming…you have bigger problems than where the convention is being held…

The Host is a dump, but the whining about it is so ludicrously overblown it's hard to do anything but laugh.

I've staying in a lot of hotels, and a lot of really, really nice ones. The Host ain't one of them. But trying to act like you get somehow infected just walking into the place is so foolish there is just nowhere to go with that discussion.

Murphy said:

Easiest way to figure it out is to simple contact both sites and request floor space (total), and floor space (convention)…and see what it comes out to."

Historygamer said:

I would not do that, as to me, that is overstepping a boundry. I am not HMGS, and they don't need a hundred members mucking up their relationships with con sites.

Actually I don't think contacting each site and asking for that information would be considered "mucking up their relationship with con sites". To me that would be someone researching it for themselves and seeing the information firsthand.

It's no biggie to me…I'll be more than happy to ask them if you want me to.

What more do you want?

Hot oil rubowns with Salma Hayek?

Is that asking for too much?

The Host is a dump, but the whining about it is so ludicrously overblown it's hard to do anything but laugh.

Reading the reviews, it doesn't sound like "whining". People wrote what they thought of the place. That's what a review is…

I've staying in a lot of hotels, and a lot of really, really nice ones. The Host ain't one of them. But trying to act like you get somehow infected just walking into the place is so foolish there is just nowhere to go with that discussion.

No one ever said that…but with people that are sensitive to mold/mildew/"sick buildings", believe it or not, that IS what can happen….
The game store that I would have allergy/mold issues with, I didn't need to do anything rather than walk inside and stand there for about 15 minutes, and the issues would start…
It DOES happen….

Iron Wind Metals- just booked the Hampton again for next year :)

"IMHO, If you need to drink beer while gaming…you have bigger problems than where the convention is being held"

No one said that they needed to drink beer while gaming. What was said is that the FCC cannot accomodate those who would like to bring their own beverages.

And such and opinion is not "humble" by any sense of the word. Some folks have alcohol problems some don't some folks like alcohol some don't. If you do and have an adversion to alcohol that is find. I have and Indian client who is vegetarian and who might think that "If you need to eat meat while gaming…you have bigger problems than where the convention is being held". But he is actually a very humble fellow in the true sense of the word who would not impose his opinion of use or non use of meat on others.

The point is the FCC cannot truly accomodate those who would like to have a drink or two with their friends especially when it comes to the wee hours gaming crew.

Demi – you were not here when this debate began. There were many people posting on the problems with Baltimore and the idea of moving the convention, but they were shouted down by an almost medieval attitude that anyone opposed to the plan was some type of heretic.

The internets – they are forever. I've read through the old posts. I didn't see shouting down. The same crew here bitching about this con was the same one bitching about that one. For the same reasons.

The people who argued against the move were proved right in almost every particular.

I'd concur with that – plus the fact there were evidently hidden escalator clauses in the contract that caused huge cost overruns, and were no doubt the primary reason for breaking the contract. I wouldn't have supported Baltimore even though its closer to me, primarily because of the parking issue.

However, the Host has a parking issue as well. Not cost, but capability.

I went to Fredericksburg, I rated the place honestly as I saw it, and I have discussed real issues, as have others.

I concur. Your basic summation was fair. However, you clearly also have an emotional context, primarily because of your disappointment that many of your friends choose not to attend. I can sympathize. I can't get any of my friends to go to Lancaster. :)

People choose to fixate on LIG's calls for a boycott, but if you care to read all of the old posts about this, his attitude developed after an extensive debate that created a lot of frustration.

Have to disagree here. Yes, there was a lot of debate. The only issue LIG cared about was distance. It made it less convenient for him, so he threw a tantrum.

Why that impacted me? The first thing I saw when I was excited about the Con was someone trying to harm it. Yes, that impacted my perception of LIG. Its one thing to state you aren't going, even another to state you hope it is not successful in its new venue. Wouldn't agree with that, would raise an eyebrow about selfishness, but OK.

Its quite another to attack individuals who are going in an attempt to boycott the Con. That's what LIG did, and because the internets are forever, its clearly visible for anyone who cares to look. Any criticism of his past that point oozes with prejudice. And yes, I clearly call that an attempt to sabotage the con, to harm its success, for his own personal reasons. He can phrase it anyway he wants.

But the bottom line is that probably 900 gamers have bailed since they started moving. No one seems to want to consider that, preferring to take issue with the statements of a few people.

People trying to actively suppress people going to the con is not unrelated to that.

Regardless, those people didn't go the Valley Forge either. It sounds like attendance at Fredericksburg is about the same as VFCC. Its going to be here one more year, we'll see if those numbers come up. I tend to think if it stayed here several years the numbers would increase as interest in it grows. But we may not get that opportunity.

I'm OK with moving it back to the Host. But I won't be staying there.

Someone will now post that Origins or Gencon is more expensive, but price increases always drive away customers.

From the following: link

Badge Prices

Badge Type

Pre-Registration * Registration * Onsite *
(Jan 29 – Jun 30) (July 1 – Aug 19) (Aug 15 – 19)

4-Day badge

$70 USD $80 USD $80 USD

1-Day badge (Thurs-Sat)

$40 USD $50 USD $50 USD

1-Day badge (Sun) $30 USD

* There is a 6% admissions tax for all badges, in compliance with Marion County laws. The same tax will be charged both online and onsite for all badge sales.

Still had THIRTY THOUSAND (plus) attendees….

The question you should also ask is "What do you think is the maximum amount the con should charge?"

Civil, I also have to respectfully disagree with this:

The Host is a dump, but the whining about it is so ludicrously overblown it's hard to do anything but laugh.

I've staying in a lot of hotels, and a lot of really, really nice ones. The Host ain't one of them. But trying to act like you get somehow infected just walking into the place is so foolish there is just nowhere to go with that discussion.

Anyone that suffers a serious allergy know how bad that can be. To be in that environment for several days can be hellish.

Add to that, mold is exceptionally problematic. It not only can cause allergies, but if you are allergic and in that environment, it can cause infection and disease.

Fungal infections SUCK – they can literally feel like you are dying.

For your edification:
link

Not saying you are being callous, just probably you aren't aware of this if you've never dealt with it yourself. It is an issue.

No one said that they needed to drink beer while gaming. What was said is that the FCC cannot accomodate those who would like to bring their own beverages.

And such and opinion is not "humble" by any sense of the word. Some folks have alcohol problems some don't some folks like alcohol some don't. If you do and have an adversion to alcohol that is find. I have and Indian client who is vegetarian and who might think that "If you need to eat meat while gaming…you have bigger problems than where the convention is being held". But he is actually a very humble fellow in the true sense of the word who would not impose his opinion of use or non use of meat on others.

The point is the FCC cannot truly accomodate those who would like to have a drink or two with their friends especially when it comes to the wee hours gaming crew

Yes…it's called "VIRGINIA STATE LAW"…along with any Federal, State, County, City, Town, Principality or Zoning Ordinances…Their hands are pretty tied on this one, so you can't blame them…

As to "having a drink a two with their friends", personally I don't mind that as long as it doesn't interfere with other people, or cause problems. It's when "one drink becomes two, which then becomes four" that it becomes an issue, and I've seen that happen…
As for your example….I've yet to see anyone charged with "Eating a hamburger and disorderly"…
And as for that, as a personal preference…I really don't like people eating AT the game table while playing also…too much chance for "spillage", litter, greasy fingers…distraction from play for other players, etc…

@Murph – I have to agree, the cost of Con attendance has never been a factor for my consideration. Its minor compared to travel, food and lodging. I imagine it would most likely impact day trippers on limited incomes.

Overall, I'd say you pretty much have to have a fair amount of disposable income to be in this hobby. If you don't, please tell me how you manage it, my wife is going to shoot me. :)

The point is the FCC cannot truly accomodate those who would like to have a drink or two with their friends especially when it comes to the wee hours gaming crew.

Eh? Alcohol was sold on the premises. If you are talking about bringing your own alcohol, yes, it is illegal because of the liquor license issues. It was the same way at VFCC as well, and no doubt the Host, as they have the same basic legal requirement. Perhaps they were better at looking the other way.

There were also a dozen restaurants with bars within a mile of the location.