"Historicon Review" Topic

I'll leave it to the individual reader to see whether there's any aggression there.

Define aggression. There are all different types. By calling for a boycott of Historicon and hoping it falls flat on it's face, my aim is to change the behavior and culture of the BoD to make them more financially responsible.

Darn Murph – all this time I though that was the exact description of the Murphy household. I was getting ready to make a trip to see you and deem it as the Mecca of Wargaming ;)

Who loves ya ??

Hey LIG! Hope all is right in your world…If you want to come to Indy, come on…I'm doing yardwork this weekend and could use an extra set of hands… ;-)

Do you think that is "extremely aggressive?"

No doubt, LIG is upset about the move and the whole way it was done. Yes, he did suggest that people who were upset about the move not go, but I would hardly characterize this as aggressive.

FYI, I think LIG is actively trying to undo the change as I believe he thinks it is bad for the convention and the society. However, I would say that "sabotage" is a highly prejudicial term that is inaccurate.

I have to agree with civil here…

LIG was vocal and strong in his points of view..but so are other people. I didn't see anything that said that he was "aggresive to the point of sabotaging" the con…I didn't see any reports or hear of any rumors of him trying to do anything to physically undermine the convention. Expressing dissatisfaction with the decision of the BOD is his right, and he exercised it.

I may not agree with all of his points of view, but I respect them and will stand with him in his right to express them, as I would with anyone else here…

I keep hearing about the economy. The crisis hit in 2008. 2009 was a disastrous economic year, NOT some hand-picked record year chosen to skew numbers.

That may be correct, but it's also a ripple effect…
I was laid off in 2008…outsourced in 2009…lost another job in 2010, and have been working long term contract jobs since then due to the fact that the economy still hasn't recovered and companies are gun shy of bringing on new employees, (election year, financial issues, market stability, etc…)

When Enron bombed in 2003 it sent shock waves through the infrastructure of Houston in terms of technology and employment. Took a few years for it to die down and stabilize…BEFORE slowly starting to rise again…

I'm thinking this national economy issue is going to be the same way…

Actively calling for a boycott of the membership so the convention fails and is relocated closer to you isn't an attempt at sabotage? It isn't an aggressive action?

This despite there being 2 conventions by this group in the location you want, the reason the convention was moved was because that facility wasn't available in this time slot for at least 2 years, and there's literally hundreds of people travelling at least as far or father than you to attend the two conventions in the location you desire?

To be accurate, the Host was offered up to the BOD for consideration, as was the Ike, and they declined both – which are cheaper facilities – one with the proven all time high attedance as well. The Host was booked out in past years, but was available at a close, if not exact date, this year. Or so I was told by those in the know. :-)

I've attended more than enough HMGS cons to be very confident that F'burg WAS a success and WILL continue to be successful in the future. Perfect? No. Successful? Yes, definitely.

I won't miss the HOST or VFCC, even though F'burg is (for me) much farther away and a bit more expensive.

My room at the Homewood is already booked for next year.

I'd hope for an accurate accounting for all the conventions, not just Hcon, to include mailers and Painting U (which I think is a great program, but the costs should be accounted for in the convention they are held at). That was not what was being done in the past, not sure now.

Bob Coggins makes some good points, but his suggestion that moved conventions lose 10% does not take into account that is not always the case, and membership feelings play a big part in that. For instance, the move from Penn Harris to the Host was reasonable, given we had clearly outgrown the Penn Harris, and I do not think any attendanc was lost. The move from the Host to VFCC was filled with lots of bad feelings because of all that went on leading up to it.

Attendance dropped, and has never recovered. Because of that, and perhaps with another attendance drop at the FCC – we seem to be moving backwards, not forwards. That would be three conventions in a row where attendance was down. So now we are hoping to get back to VFCC attendance numbers instead of Host numbers? Honestly, I am not promoting the Host so much as the attendance numbers. FCC is closer to me, but given it is further away from a lot of the previous attendees, and clearly people have not been attending Hcon as much as when it was at the Host, and FCC costs more, I am not sure I understand where we are going.

I agree with Bob the BOD always needs to look for new venues, but this one, along with others, was examined and dismissed. Barring carpet rentals and additional cleaning staff and chair rentals, the FCC is what it is. All those "fixes" will add additional costs too.

I also agree with LIG's summation of how the BOD seems to make decisions to move willy-nilly, say from the Ike to Timmonium, or the Host to BCC, or VFCC (another previously dismissed facility), etc. There does not seem to be a lot of logic in the decision process. It seems more founded on gut feelings that if they move it "somewhere" more people will attend. So far, that has not been the case.

Murphy,

My point was that there is no way to make a substantiated claim that the economy is a factor in explaining attendance loss from 2009 to 2011. From 2006 to 2009, for example, absolutely. But statistically speaking, things simply are not worse now than they were in 2009, though they are still bad. This is relevant because there is always an excuse offered for the precipitous decline in attendance, and mystically it never seems to have anything to do with the moves.

Demiurgex,

The word sabotage implies subterfuge or some type of illicit activity. It is used deliberately to demonize the individual making the statements. Exercising his right to express his opinion and urging others to put economic pressure on HMGS to reverse what he considers a disatrous decision is not sabotage. You may not agree, but a lot of people don't agree with what has happened either. about 80% of the people I know who usually go to the convention didn't, and most of them don't post here or know LIG.

Civil -

Obviously I disagree. An active attempt to organize a boycott of the membership (which you have to call starting a thread with the express intention of telling other members not to go) combined with a call that if it fails financially it should be moved is fairly disingenuous to me. That is the very definition of sabotage.

No need to trash it. Those who want to go will, those who don't will not. Of course I still tell everyone I can that they should stay away :)

At the end of the day, the numbers will tell the story. Let's see how it holds up.

It doesn't take any great level of insight to see through that facade. LIG wants it to fail – so it will be moved to a location he personally desires.

link
a : an act or process tending to hamper or hurt
b : deliberate subversion

Alpah Geek:

So you know for a fact that Hcon achieved its budgeted attendance and dealer numbers to make it a financial success? Can you share your information?

What is knowable is both gamer and dealer attendance was good with the liklihood of increasing in 2013

Gamers, those who play, and dealers, those who stand to make [and in the worst cases, lose] money by attending, will always show up. But the convention needs GM's too, and the noise within the main hall is likely to affect their commitment. It's no fun trying to host an event, and communicate with others when you can't hear yourself think. An exhibition space is not designed acoustically to deal with the levels of noise generated by hundreds of gamers. Carpets, padded chairs and acoustic ceilings do help. Hard walls, floor and ceiling are a disaster – you can't fix the problem, without spending many, many thousands of dollars.

npm

"If staying put generates greater attendance, then why did we move in the first place?"

Okay already! Most reasonable HMGS members agree that the abortive move to Baltimore was a mistake and was a really Bad Thing. But those dopes on the Board allowed Pete it to attempt to make it happen and we can't magically go back and change that. Can we let it go now and talk about the here and now? The VFCC was a good location, but the owners decided to make it into a casino. We had no control over that and another location was necessary. So now we have the con at Fredericksburg because the other locations they considered weren't viable options (regardless of whatever "inside info" from supposed anonymous sources LIG claims to have).

**Staying in the same place for a few years will undoubtedly see the numbers grow.**

"And what are you basing that ascertion on? One of the pros of moving to FCC was supposedly because so many more southerners would attend. If more did, then it apparently was not enough to offset the numbers of people from other places that did not. That's is a loss. I do not believe that past moves incurred a loss till FI moved from the Ike and Hcon moved to VFCC."

I am basing it on all the past numbers, and on things Bob Coggins and others who actually ran those cons have said numerous times through the years (and in fact yet again a little ways above this post). There's no doubt that many people like consistency, and will pitch royal fits when things they like change (I know I do sometimes). This translates into no-shows such as LIG and his alleged hundreds of friends that skipped the con. Considering that the numbers thrown out on Sunday that you claim are "in the ballpark" are very, very close to last year's con and the great number of positive reviews from attendees it's a pretty good indication that the FCC can certainly work. Adjustments need to be made, but again that is no surprise considering it was a new con convention staff in a new location.

Regardless of all this hoo-ha, Historicon WILL be at Fredericksburg next year so we will see then if attendance increases, stays the same, or decreases. My bet is we'll see more people.

"What is knowable is both gamer and dealer attendance was good with the liklihood of increasing in 2013"

Bob, not having been able to attend the con but I was under the impression that the dealer hall was sold out. Now if that was the case then how would it be possible to increase with more dealers unless there is room to put them? Could someone explain that to me.

"I also agree with LIG's summation of how the BOD seems to make decisions to move willy-nilly, say from the Ike to Timmonium, or the Host to BCC, or VFCC (another previously dismissed facility), etc. There does not seem to be a lot of logic in the decision process. It seems more founded on gut feelings that if they move it "somewhere" more people will attend. So far, that has not been the case."

Well, to be fair the move to the VFCC was necessary at the time. It WASN'T going to happen in Baltimore and it had to go SOMEWHERE. I think the willy-nilliness of that one is understandable. Likewise the move to Fredericksburg. Nothing I saw or researched about the other two options made me think that they would be better in any way, and worse in many others. That the Host was available in any way is debatable, not to mention the Board (and many members from what I have read) does not want it to EVER go back there. I'm certainly happy with that decision even if some others are not.

And I don't remember anybody on the Board ever saying that if the con moves ""somewhere" more people will attend." More like move it somewhere and we will still have the convention. Attendance numbers will sort themselves out for good or for ill (and in this case they don't look bad to me).

@Lignere – I agree with that summation completely. The one real negative I saw (as distance wasn't a factor for me either before or now) was the noise level proved disruptive to the games. One game I ran was intended largely as a diplomatic game, where the players reasonably should have been having quite a bit of communication. I'm not sure if it was this particular group or the venue, but very little of that happened. I think the venue was at least partially responsible for that, and if something can't be done about the noise level, I would support a move.

One thing I was very surprised at was the lack of web presence. The main web sites were fine, but there was no outside presence.

As my part, I've posted a request to the UpcomingCons.com site to add the HMGS cons to their register. Requests should be made to major vendors and gaming companies to promote the cons. Several of them have convention registries.

The wikipedia page was also out of date, so I've updated that with the new location of the con (while keeping the fact it was traditionally a Lancaster con). I formatted it much the same way as the previous entry.

But there should be a better web presence. When I googled 'gaming convention' wiki and UpcomingCons were the first 3 hits.

LIG wants it to fail – so it will be moved to a location he personally desires

Interesting, we can say the same of the people who are trying to shout me down right now. Everyone, me included, has a personal agenda. If you deny that, then you're lying.

Attendance numbers will sort themselves out for good or for ill (and in this case they don't look bad to me)

It's hard to say right now. I've heard two different sets of numbers – from a low of 2600 to a high of over 3000. We agree – let's wait for the published numbers to come out.

And I don't remember anybody on the Board ever saying that if the con moves ""somewhere" more people will attend

Although I don't have it in writing that was said to me by Pete Panzari regarding the BCC move right after the membership meeting.

But even when we know the supposed final numbers (again, look more towards paid attendance and compare as the numbers are squishy at best), what will that mean?

If they are lower, those favor staying at the FCC (and hate the Host) will proclaim that they are sure more people will come if it stays there. If the numbers are roughly the same, then they will declare the move a success. All this ignores the fact that FCC is roughly the same size as the Host (with no growth potential beyond what we had at the Host), is more expensive, has physical plant problems which will take additional resources/money to fix – and again, drew less than the last Hcon at the Host. But, FCC is a success, right?

Look, I think the Host is a dump too, but if it drew more people, and it cost less, I haven't heard a reasonable explanation of why we aren't running back to the dump to be charged less and attract more people back.

I'll likely attend Hcon either way next year (vacation conflicted this year), but I know most of my friends won't(nor did most of them at VFCC – which was reflected in the drop in attendance). And, based on the consensus review about the noise problems, I'll skip running a game in the main hall if we are at FCC (which I bet we are).

No doubt many would be happy if we held a wargame convention at the local fire hall, but having a good time and looking dispassionately at the facts are two different things. I see more emmotion and less analysis happening here.

Interesting, we can say the same of the people who are trying to shout me down right now. Everyone, me included, has a personal agenda. If you deny that, then you're lying.

Again, you chose to be disingenuous.

Yes, people have personal motivations. What's in question is what that motivation is.

No, the people who are 'shouting you down' did not attempt to organize a boycott of previous Historicons held in PA.

You, however, did when it was moved to a location you didn't like.

If Historicon moved to New York, I'd weigh the pros and cons and make a decision. I might be disappointed if I couldn't attend, but I wouldn't be actively hoping it failed.

But you went beyond actively hoping it failed. You actually tried to help make it fail. You attempted to damage the convention and therefore the enjoyment of your fellow enthusiasts who chose to attend. You even launched personal attacks on those in your region saying they were going.

You have a right to comment.

And we have a right to point out just who it is that is commenting.

The Warstore had a good con. We will be back. I will say that my guys reported the bathroom issue to me and opted to head for their hotel which was closer than some of the hotel rooms at the Host to the tennis barn. The food was good -- it was convention center food -- but I managed to find fresh salads each day to go with a variety of sandwiches, pulled chicken BBQ, a freshly made sub, a decent hamburger. We chose to eat out at night and found several different local eateries that were very good and not horribly expensive.

The con had some first year growing pains. I think that next year we will see an improvement in the noise levels in the open gaming hall and in the dealer hall, and cleaner bathrooms for the fellas. I'm sure that the restrooms in the dealer hall will be available for public use.

Our hotels were clean and close. The hotel the crew stayed in was closer to the convention center than some of the far reaching rooms of the Host are to the tennis barn. I DID NOT come home with convention crud like I do after staying at the Host or working at the Host for 8 or more hours in Hobby University. It was nice to not have to see my brother in law (the doctor) for a round of heavy antibiotics and it was even better that I was able to pull a dusk dive yesterday at one of my favorite shore dives on Long Island, which I can't do after Fall-In or Cold Wars (air and water temps not withstanding as I do dive a dry suit)because of congestion.

Traffic is what it is. We did not have trouble with it all. I know I have to go through NYC to get off Long Island and plan accordingly. It doesn't matter what con we attend -- unless it's on Long Island, we have to go through NYC. Our truck has commercial plates and a DOT number. The Long Island parkway system is prohibited to us in this case. We planned our trip so that we pulled into Fredericksburg in the wee hours of Wednesday morning and promptly fell asleep in our nice clean hotel beds.

I believe that trying to return HCON to the Host would not be in the best interests of the convention or HMGS. I believe that HMGS has outgrown the Host for HCON. I think it is still a suitable location for the other 2 conventions. I understand that some people were disappointed that the convention was moved to Virginia. I think other folks were delighted in was in Virginia. I do know the BoD has done a lot of work trying to find facilities that would allow HCON to land in a place that will give it some stability and a chance to grow within its budget. Some folks feel that the Host was available -- it wasn't. It's not available until 2015 for the general date range of Historicon. Some folks feel that the Ike was an acceptable alternative. It's not. The walk from my hotel to the FCC was closer than my walk from the Ike to the All Star (which BTW was not a part of the Ike at all and HMGS had to enter a separate contract for). The food at the FCC was far better and more plentiful than the Ike AND there were more choices in a shorter driving distance for off site food. AND Wegman's was right there, giving you access to food and alcohol 24/7.

Throwing stones at the BoD is not helpful, especially if you espouse to "love" and support Historicon and the other cons. The BoD is made up of 7 elected folks that we as members chose (if you bothered to vote). These folks give of their time to run things as best they can. Have mistakes been made in the past? Of course. However, it's done and over with AND the best thing you can do is to attend or not at your choice, and offer constructive criticism to the Board. I have found members of the BoD to be responsive to my questions and open to my suggestions if I am willing to not have those discussions at conventions where the BoD is insanely busy and I am willing to be civil in my tone during those discussions.

If you disagree with the relocation of HCON to the FCC, then I would strongly urge you to get the criteria that is used to select the sites from the BOD, put your personal feelings aside and embark upon your own search. Many members of the BoD have wonderful memories of HCON's past held at the Host. I think they look forward to at least one round of Hall pig during the convention. It's not about "we hate the Host and are never going back there". It's about what works best for the organization. AND since the Host is not available until 2015 for the date range set for HCON, it's just not in the cards at this time, no matter how much you love (or hate) the moldy, old, multilevel rabbit warren.

You're right, I would promote a boycott of HCon. Yet, when we look at the numbers, inadequate bathrooms, etc. this doesn't appear to be the wargamming nirvana we hoped it would be. So now, we may look at possibly moving it. Does this make me a bad person? No – I refuse to drink the purple Kooladie that is handed to us. I make no apologies – I call it as I see it.

Hey LIG, I remember us being called "saboteurs" because we disagreed with the move to Baltimore. Some things never change.

I did not go to Historicon -- No money (one of my rental properties needed some repairs). No time (wife had back surgery and I had to use up a fair amount of vacation for that -- so I cannot comment on the facility.

Otto, I sincerely hope you and your wife are doing well. Hope she has a speedy recovery. See you at Weekend 2013, my new summer Con.

"You're right, I would promote a boycott of HCon."

More's the pity. You'd rather everybody suffer with NO con that have it happen in a place of which you don't approve. Happily so far it appears your efforts have come to naught.

"Yet, when we look at the numbers, inadequate bathrooms, etc. this doesn't appear to be the wargamming nirvana we hoped it would be."

Firstly, we CAN'T look at the numbers because we don't bloody have them!

The bathrooms are a fixable problem. Let's focus on solutions rather than bitching about the problems constantly.

Next, who EVER said anything remotely like this would be a "gaming nirvana"? It was simply where the con was going to take place and NOBODY claimed it was going to be perfect. Only having the event there would answer that, and it went well regardless of first year (and first con staff) hiccups and your fervent desire for it's failure. As always, you're just relying on utter hyperbole to make your point. "Slap in the face" anyone? Pff.

"So now, we may look at possibly moving it. Does this make me a bad person? No – I refuse to drink the purple Kooladie that is handed to us. I make no apologies – I call it as I see it. Does the term "fanboy" mean anything to you?"

We MAY look at that eventually , but next year we're at FCC again so prepare yourself for another year of making threats and shaking your fist about how you've been personally done wrong. I don't think you're a bad person at all, just a bit tightly wound about this subject. And how can you "call it like you see it" when you didn't even go to the con and SEE for yourself? I didn't like Timonium but at least I gave it a try when Fall In moved there. If it had continued there I would have skipped that event entirely. Of course, I have no doubt if you had gone to Historicon your review would have been even more negative than it is now, simply because you were predisposed to hate it. Is there a term for the polar opposite of fanboy? Cause you, sir, are IT.

"

"What is knowable is both gamer and dealer attendance was good with the liklihood of increasing in 2013"

Bob, not having been able to attend the con but I was under the impression that the dealer hall was sold out. Now if that was the case then how would it be possible to increase with more dealers unless there is room to put them? Could someone explain that to me."

Ok, I know I answering two different posts here.

1. Exactly how is it "known" that attendance was good? Do you have final numbers?

2. Exactly what basis is there to suggest it is likely that 2013 will be better? Crystal ball?

Also, the dealer area may have been sold out, but it was smaller too. That's just a game. We'll make it smaller so we can say it is sold out. We can start listing the dealers who were not there if you want.

"Hey LIG, I remember us being called "saboteurs" because we disagreed with the move to Baltimore. Some things never change."

Oh yes. Me too. We were reactionaries trying to hold bakc human progress. I remember. I almost didn't post a review because I wasn't sure I even wanted to deal with it again.

Demi,

Regarding LIG and "sabotage," here is my point. We may differ on our rating of the activities that can reasonably be called sabotage, and that is fine.

BUT, it is clear that LIG is not trying to damage Historicon. He is doing what he thinks is in the best interest of the convention long term by exerting economic pressure to compel a move back to where he believes it will be healthier in the long run. If enough people stay away, and HMGS is compelled to move the convention back to its long time area, and attendance increases, his acts would have been in the best interests of the convention long term even though they might have damaged one year's event in one location. Indeed, if you believe the current location is harmful long term, in a manner of speaking you would be sabotaging the program by supporting it where it is. LIG does not want there to be no more Historicons; he wants to force it back to where he believes it is healthier.

Now you may not agree with his assessments…in fact, it is clear you do not. And you are entitled to your opinion and your own assessment as to what is best for Historicon, which for all of us is a different question from what is our personal preference (to which you are also entitled as all of us are).

I don't know what will happen in the future. I think the moves were a bad mistake, exacerbated by the way it was all handled. We have bled attendance since we started moving. Year two at VFCC did not show an increase in attendance, despite the repeated assertions that first years decline and then increase in year two. Didn't happen at VFCC. Now lots of people are taking it as a certainty that it will happen at FCC. Unless they killed a sheep and read its bladder, I'm not sure what this is based upon.

Funny, I don't recall saying anyone but the man who posted a thread for the intent of suppressing attendee turnout as a 'saboteur.'

Feel free to not like the new location of the con all you want. That's certainly your prerogative.

Organizing attempt to suppress attendance, including using personal attacks against other members, goes beyond the pale.

Civil,

Its an inherently destructive act. It is not justifiable, and it certainly would not be if Southerner tried to suppress turnout to a con in PA because they wanted it here. Indeed, that is a particularly vicious cycle.

The problem for LIG is the internet is eternal. His first comments on this when it was initially discussed weren't 'oh no, my hobby might suffer because only 2500 people might attend instead of 3000.'

It was 'how dare they backstab us! This con is too far!'

So excuse me if I don't buy the prevarication that he has the best interest of the hobby. He stated plainly and clearly that his primary concern was his personal convenience, and did so numerous times.

It is only after the numerous and justifiable rebukes on that matter has he changed his tune to something that he is attempting to make more palatable.

As I recall, your primary complaint wasn't the venue or the drive, but the fact that personally you didn't have as good of time because many of your friends weren't there.

While you have my sympathies, I hardly think that's a valid justification for anyone else's motivations.

As far as the numbers go, we don't know yet. But we do know the convention is going to be at the FEC next year. Numerous individuals have already indicated that has been set.

Therefore, being proactive in discussing ways to make the con better is far more constructive at this point, wouldn't you say?

There was no choice but to move this year. The Host is not available in July through 2015. Saying that we can't keep moving it is also not constructive when there is no choice but to have it somewhere else.

Actively attempting to damage the product is not something that most people of conscience find acceptable. If there IS a North/South split, its actions such as these that will cause it.

The internet is so much fun as every one can keep ignoring the facts while making their arguments. I guess I could too. :-)

So, FCC is able to grow, while the Host cannot. Really? I was under the impression that FCC is roughly the same size as the Host. So how can we grow at FCC and not at the Host? The only reason FCC had more room was apparently because… (wait for it) …there were less people and dealers there. So yeah, we have room, just no more than the Host. If we go to a really crappy place we'll have even more room. :-)

You can clean the bathrooms, but you won't create any more of them. They are what they are. We play late into the evening and cleaning staff are long gone. To be fair, this has been an issue everywhere we have gone.

So the noise problem will be fixed next time. Really? How exactly? Drapes and pipes? I was not aware that they had any dampening ability. Also, that would take away the charm of seeing so many of the games. Carpeting? You mean like at the Host or the Ike? So how much to pay the carpet man to unroll and dampen 100k sq ft space? Again, we have carpeting at other places, and I don't recall anyone complaining about the noise in the All Star complex (had astro turf), which was larger than the tennis barn at the Host and did have room for more dealers. And chairs too, not folding ones. You mean like at the Ike and Host?

Sigh. I know I am starting to sound like a Host lover, but perhaps I just appreciate what we had compared to what we don't have and will have to pay for – expect you can't pay more people to attend. We'll you could, but you know what I mean. :-)

"The internet is so much fun as every one can keep ignoring the facts while making their arguments. I guess I could too."

Too late! 8)=

Historygamer,

Port-a-potties historygamer and the cleaning staff can be held-over. You've gotta stop with them negative vibes. There are always problems and always complaints. I moved the convention to Lancaster and the first year attendace was down from Harrisburg. If you don't believe me ask our unofficial historian, Pat Condray.

There are always going to be problems, solve one and another occurs. The first year, the Host forgot to tell me it didn't have AC in the dealer's room and for the next 2 years HMGS went for the price. A few years later the hotel had a flood due to an AC system on life support and in places the water was streaming from the ceiling like Niagra Falls. They patched it up and we all crossed our fingers. I attribute that many rooms retained a musty smell due the deluge.

LIG,

Think Fredericksburg cause the convention aint going back to the Host and there aint another decent/affordable facility north of MD. I'll take that back, there is Atlantic City.

Bob Coggins

Hi History,

Actually drapes and any sort of fabric will help dampen noise reflected off of all the hard surfaces in that room.

It will not acoustically deaden the noise 100% nor will the hall suddenly sound like a symphony hall, but every bit of fabric that can absorb sound will help.

I have heard that in other, similar venues they actually hang fabric swags from the ceilings to help cope with the noise.

Those foam interlocking mats would help with both the noise and the sore feet, legs, knees, backs, etc. too. I saw many GM's surrounding their tables with those mats at Origins, and the main gaming halls there are similar to the FCC.

Just a thought.

So now we have to rent port o johns for the new facility because the on-site bathrooms aren't adequate? Really? And that is a step up how? What happens if more people do attend? Then we'll need more johns. Also, the on site staff will not clean port o johns, you'll have to contract for addtional services for cleaing from the rental company. I know, I rent such stuff all the time for events I put on. Again, how is this better than what we had, cause I seem to be missing it.

You ignore the most common complaint – noise, which given the facility, there really is no fix for.

I agree, all facilities have problems, but some more than others. This facility is no bigger than the Host (a fact people keep conveniently overlooking), costs more, and is further away from the majority of people who used to attend. If the Host is so bad, why are we staying there for our other two cons? On that same thought, isn't the Ike less expensive now than the Host? It was offered to us for a reported $7 USDk, so why not move FI back there to save more money and alleviate the horrors of the Host for a second con?

As I said, I'll attend either way, but this is making less and less sense to me.

Yes, drapes hung from the ceiling might help some, but not on pipes. So now we have to rent drapes cause of the noise, bring our own foam matts to help with the hard floor, maybe bring a jug in case the bathrooms are overflowing, chairs to sit on that are comofortable, and…. anything else? Wow, this is a great facility. Now I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale… :-)

Even the fabric on the pipe will help a bit, fabric is fabric and will absorb noise. Upholstered chairs would work, that's why they are used in theaters.

Nothing will totally fix the "roar" save acoustic cancelling tiles on the walls and ceilings. I know where we can get some. . .

We used foam mats in the Distlefink one year because our bones were aching!

It would be better if that main hall had carpeting, but since it doesn't I was throwing the BYoM idea out there as a possible solution.

How much for the bridge and can you ship to Pittsburgh? I have always wanted a Bus Only bridge there to ameliorate some traffic issues during my daily commute!

Oh, the Parkway East is much worse than the bridges, especially the Squirrel Hill Tunnel. :-)

"How much for the bridge and can you ship to Pittsburgh? I have always wanted a Bus Only bridge there to ameliorate some traffic issues during my daily commute!"

Just get a GPS. Apparently their are easy ways to sidestep traffic in major metro areas.

"Just get a GPS. Apparently their are easy ways to sidestep traffic in major metro areas."

Lol!

I am bound by the bus routes. . . but you can't really bypass bridges to get across rivers unless you have a boat ;-)

One of the many reasons we aren't on the HMGS Con Site short list.

Now I can bet there are alternate routes to avoid I-95 and the DC Metro area, they might involve a longer trip into PA to connect to alternate roads.

I've heard "The Pen Harris" and the move from thence to the Host bandied around a bit on this thread. I was there and remember it well.

I also remember it was accomplished with almost none of the acrimony, anger, angst, and vituperation that presently surround ANY foray into the conventions of HMGS or HMGS itself-- that is, what happens when we get into these threads. We all thought a move bigger and better was good and were content to let the powers that be address things. Back then we had a big advantage. We did not have the internet to poison the process.

Host, Valley Forge, Fredericksburg, love em or hate em- it's up to the individual. But talking about "boycotting" or "sabotaging" or telling people to get lost because you think they are "whiners" or because they are butt-boys to the Bod gets us nowehere. If you like Fredericksburg (or any locale, you like it, and if you don't you don't and if you want to go you'll go and if you don't you won't. But nothing is going to be served by this bickering and vituperation. Some people are demaning numbers and figures! Why? No one will believe them if it doesn't say what they want. We've been there before. Let's make one thing clear. If the Host, or Falley Forge or Fredericksburg is going to fail, it won't fail at Lancaster, or Valley Forge or Fredericksburg. It will fail right here, because the location will become politicized beyond its merits or demetis.

This is our hobby, we're supposed to be having fun. It's playing with toy soldiers, and here we are trashing the people who are in the same hobby as us.

What?! is there not misery enough in the world for you?

"You're right, I would promote a boycott of HCon."

I'm confused. It appears that basically you are upset with the way the BOD is running things and picking the locations of the cons. And I can certainly see your point. However, why just boycott HCon? If you really want to hit the BOD in the pocketbook, then shouldn't you boycott all of their cons? Doesn't seem very effective to only go after one of their 3 cons.

So if I'm reading rati and demi right HMGS would have no issue with an alternate convention in July at the Host? Since that would not be sabotage but just good old Competition.

Frankly not going to the Freddycon saved me money, time, dealing with necessities(nasty toilets, Industrial Plant Warehouse gaming, dealing with party poopers who don't want me to have good beer when I game and the DC drive (I'll be taking 13 down to Williamsburg Muster in the beginning of the year).

I ended up going to two summer conventions (One totally unconventional and a lot of fun) and a games day plus my normal Thursday. That's 6.5 days of gamming compared to the normal HCon. Did some shopping at the cons, got some mail order purchases.

Our group even had a member who went to HCon and ran some games. He is a devout gamer even he is unsure if he will go next year.

Maybe folks its just time that we agree to disagree.

HMGS is a political animal and the BOD is run by those who like to do that kind stuff (we all had class presidents in school and local groups and politicians, chruch boards etc.). In those instances especially with volunteers the board either has its own ideas or vision or gets manipulated by the squeaky wheels.

Well the squeaky wheels seem to have the fore right now. The con got moved out of the Host (a place where the majority of us had no problems) and Now in a desperate power grab to try to ensure that the con can't go back to the Host, we hear cries to the effect of "like it or lump it". "Its sabotage to try to let the board know your displeasure"

Well hell no! Those of us who don't like it will voice our displeasure. We will fight to let the BOD either hear our view or if necessary take other actions to give us more gaming choices and then choose accordingly. When you lose gaming groups you lose more than attendees you lose Game Masters both on the pel and pickup games. What I found with both the events that I attended was a smaller con with more comradery less griping and lots of fun and gaming.

The Board had something simple and sweet going in Lancaster that worked. We as members blindly went along fat and happy till it was pilfered from us by the "Move the Con" Cabal (Better word than Sabatoge) and the Cabal's adherents either those who just want it in VA, the delicate ones who need newer facilities or just the plain old Bootlickers. (If I offer you offense It is intentional.)

The scheduling argument is a red herring as the Host will always try to fill its venue and if we don't sign up someone else will. If it's available in 2015 then we should grab it. Or God forbid we could adjust our schedule for a few years and fit it in.

LIG is nowhere as aggressive or downright stubborn as I will be when I deem it necessary but he has the right Idea that the BOD's move was conflict with the best interests of the Organization. To call it Sabotage is like calling a whistle blower or a revolutionary a Saboteur. Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Patrick Henry, Nelson Mandela and Ghandi all in much more serious causes with more serious consequences all stood up to a state of affairs with their governing body that needed to be changed. Perhaps they were Saboteurs too? While we are more akin to the boy who told the emperor that his all in all was showing than to any of the great men mentioned above, we serve a purpose and have valid points.

I'm a dues paying member of HMGS, something alot of folks have dropped over the years due to displeasure with the Board and the lack of real benefit. I still attend the two Lancaster Cons and have both Game mastered on and off the PEL.

I have no intention to be stifled or to sit by and watch irresponsible people bandy about words like Sabotage.

Otto don't be dismayed. Your sentiments are valid and worthy though I disargee with where it will fail. It will fail in the hearts and minds of those Elected to The BOD. The BOD should simply be elected online now (give each member a password and his or her Member Number to log in)
The process as it is does not really encourage involvement. Perhaps that is how they like it.

Thanks again Otto for trying to get us all to be Civil but we now have accusations of "sabatoogee" (In my best Curley) and these knuckle heads must be addressed. Though they will only amuse me for so long.

Gil

@Gil – I'd have no problem with that. It seems a proactive solution, and as far as I'm concerned, the more Cons the better. Seems like NJCon is doing well. I hope it continues to expand.

Ultimately the idea is for everyone to have a good time, right? Hoping other people don't for your own benefit seems more than a bit nasty to me.

Oh, and what part of 'It can't be at the Host anytime in the next few years' are you guys not grasping?

Do you believe the BoD is lying to move the Con? Despite the fact that the Host is still the site of choice 2 out of 3 times? OK, you'll believe what you want to believe.

However, the comment 'I'll go to Williamsburg Muster (a further 90 miles) but wont' go to Fredericksburg' is nonsensical. If you are doing so, it isn't because of the location of the con, its because of club politics.

Williamsburg Muster is a great Con, enjoy it immensely. But if you can get there via an alternate route, you can get to Fredericksburg via the same route in less time.

Attacking members for supporting the Con and the club IMO is irresponsible. Yes, you have the right to dissent. Again, when you take it to the level of personal attacks and active calls for boycotts you've gone to far.

And if you think behavior like that is responsible, you have a very specific agenda.

Oh, and nice rhetoric on the freedom fighter comments. LOL.

I'm sure you have quite a bit in common with Martin Luther and Nelson Mandela. Hell, your personal level of commitment clearly exceeds that piker Ghandi. Truly, you inspire us with your very presence. :)

Per registration of Historicon 2011, #1 largest group was from Pennsylvania (naturally), the #2 was from Virginia.

Believe it or not, the New York/New Jersey contingent isn't the largest.

Just the most vocal.

The internet is so much fun as every one can keep ignoring the facts while making their arguments. I guess I could too. :-)

Wanna see some good ones?…Go to The Blue Fez…We had a member there that refused to accept microfiche records of orignal documents at the National Archives as "valid reference sources", but was okay with using art prints…

So, FCC is able to grow, while the Host cannot. Really? I was under the impression that FCC is roughly the same size as the Host.

I'm not sure on this one and I think it's arguable…I do think the FCC is bigger. Easiest way to figure it out is to simple contact both sites and request floor space (total), and floor space (convention)…and see what it comes out to.

So how can we grow at FCC and not at the Host? The only reason FCC had more room was apparently because… (wait for it) …there were less people and dealers there. So yeah, we have room, just no more than the Host. If we go to a really crappy place we'll have even more room. :-)

How do you know?…Once again..the numbers have NOT been released…this statement of yours is pure speculation and opinion.

You can clean the bathrooms, but you won't create any more of them.

Actually depending upon facility management and construction…yes you could….

They are what they are. We play late into the evening and cleaning staff are long gone. To be fair, this has been an issue everywhere we have gone.

So is it the cleaning staff's fault EVERYWHERE you go that you have some people that cannot seem to crap IN the bowl???

So the noise problem will be fixed next time. Really? How exactly? Drapes and pipes? I was not aware that they had any dampening ability.

Why not contact the FCC and see what they can do, or better yet…*wait for it*….Bring it up to the BOD and see what they say about it?…You can also, (on your own), bring it up with the FCC….

Also, that would take away the charm of seeing so many of the games.

Would it?…once again..speculation and opinion….

Carpeting? You mean like at the Host or the Ike?

No…I'm thinking less worn…less stained..and some of it not moldy, or covering mold….

Sigh. I know I am starting to sound like a Host lover, but perhaps I just appreciate what we had compared to what we don't have and will have to pay for – expect you can't pay more people to attend. We'll you could, but you know what I mean. :-)

As I said…and as others have said…IF you can find a better place then let the BOD know….

This was my third convention and because of all this "debate" I was more alert to potential issues.

I would definitely come back again and the convention was a success. I attended from Thursday to Sunday

IMO it would only fail if it did not cover it's costs and I hope it did do that.

Yes the toilets were not ideal but I never had to wait long and being 6ft 3" had some problems as the level of the toilets were designed for children.

Yes I had a room nearby and a short walk maybe 60 seconds maybe 180 seconds at most from door to door.

Wegmans was walking distance 5 mins at most. (Being tall helps).

Did not read PEL about beer and was told about it as I was finishing off my beer I had got from Wegmans. Wegmans was GREAT what a selection and once some one told me they did self serve food I had a meal there which was very good.

I played 5 games in the main hall and yes it was a bit loud but I managed to hear all that I needed to and had a great chat to many of my opponents and GM's

The PEL did seem lighter than the last two especially with speakers but I still managed to play all the games I wanted to and even had quite a few walk up games.

Thursday
Prelude to Ligny hosted by Bruce who is a absolute gent.

The Heights of Pratzen – Austerlitz with Ken. He provided prizes and I will upload my photo's when I get chance.

ACW BIG Battle Cry – Richard is one of the reasons I come back and the only games designer to ever buy me a beer. A real gaming hero of mine and my regret was not to be able to play his new Samurai game. I was really lucky to be sat opposite a dame who really put my dice rolls to shame (sorry forgot your name) and next to Bill of Fire and Fury fame and we had a good game on the right flank.

Friday
CY6 – Battle of Britain saw me on the wrong side (German) and trying to shoot down the British players under instruction from Jonathan.

The Battle of New Market was a walk in and Rick Wynn and his figures and table were just great. I will post photo's and my dice rolls caused the Confederates to break and run for the hills!!! All good fun and Rick gave prizes!! Fantastic!!

Friday night was my gaming heaven as one system I like better than Richards is Xfire and I rarely get to play as I am usually running it for the Warwick club here in the UK. Pete had made a table to die for and did the Germans die. All my previous die rolls at New Market were replaced by 5's and 6's I hope the Germans forgive me…. A great game and some really nice play from both sides.

Saturday
Yet another high light for me was meeting up with Mike who put on the Kreigsspiel game and something I run here. I helped umpire and a bit light on action but a good introduction for the new players and lots of interest. I hope Richard at 2FL will get some sales via his web site.

Then I had the gaming cream on top of my great gaming weekend.

Fireball Forward Clash at Rossinie run by the wicked Gerry with some gaming characters I have become very fond of. A game that went right down to the wire and victory was snatched from the Germans right at the end and could have gone either way up to the last dice roll. Perfect!!!

The last walk up game was another Fireball game run in the jungle with the Japs just beating us on the last turn. Superb play by both sides and plenty of laughs and good nature banter.

So despite a few issues nothing major and more than out weighed by all the good things.

A pity that a vocal minority seem to think it is a good idea to discount all the people who said they enjoyed it and would go back. It is real simple support it and be part of the fun and as long as it makes a profit then it is a success.

If it loses money then it needs looking at but for me I would be very happy to go back and I have a bit further to travel than most and it is worth the effort especially if you do all three days.

Just my 2p and something to counter act the vocal minority….

Ohh and I have missed out a game with CB and his famous dice rolling… A good job we were in a side room as we would have been thrown out CB you make me smile to just think of you…

Mark and Jonathan I don't know how you managed to come up with Fireball Forward but it is cheap at half the price for all the laughs and smiles the last three conventions I have had with your incredible crew and gamers.

Thank you for all those hard working volunteers who make such an event possible and I hope you pick up on all the positive stuff and keep the negative comments in perspective!!!

Hcon is worth going to and please run where you think is best, I and other silent players trust you.