"Historicon Review" Topic

Despite the failure of the organizers to arrange for Historicon to occur within fifty yards of my house (yet again), I was very happy with the convention as a whole.

Hmmm. Isn't there a church hall within 50 yards of your front door, Howard? It may have possibilities. Invoking the favor of God in games might have meaning.

As long as LIG (and the other whiners) stay away, Hcon will be fine. Wah…wah…it had to suck cause it was so far from my house…wah.

What a grossly false representation of what Long Island Gamer actually said. It's painfully obvious that the sensible financial points he brings up are anathema to some of the "fan boys".

And since you are obviously ignorant of what LIG contributed to the preceding Historicons, then you are in no position to tell me how "fine" things are now.

vagamer63, I never said the Host was not disaster proof. But the way you talk all sorts of disasters can happern to it and looks like it has. That is if you are predicting the future and have a crystal ball which sounds like you do. And yet yous stated a tornado had hit Fredericksburg the week before. So all sorts or disasters will not happen to it.
Maybe you should get a job in weather forcasting.

Until we can find a disused hotel in which every game can have its own room there will be noise. I still remember one GM at the Host complaining about the noise from the other 2 games and trying to close the walls to shut them out in a breakout room there.

And as to the cleanliness of the bathrooms, perhaps the gamers need to take some responsibility for their own, um, functions, and practice the aim they hope on their toy soldiers within the porcelin palaces. I shudder to think of what their bathrooms at home look like.

I liked the venue a lot, warts and all. It was nice to have everything under one roof, particularly when it was raining. Don't like the onsite food (I thought it was fine for the price) then there are literally over 100 restaurants less than 5 minutes away (some of us walked to a few).

Stability at the new site will lead to some growth. The area is great and thrilled to see people from out of town. I was blown away at the welcoming attitude of the folks from Fredericksburg wherever I went. I find myself actually looking forward to next year, and I haven't had that feeling in a number of years.

Oh, and to the dude who I saw eating 4 egg patties: that's why you're "gamer sized"

Somebody has to buy all the 4XL tshirts the con staff orders, or as some call them, "Gamer's Medium."

Looks like everyone else had a good/great time. Barring continued family/financial issues, I'll be down next summer.

But first, it's four days until GM Event Registration opens up for Fall-in! Wooooooo!

Honestly, is there really such a thing as a bad wargaming convention? I don't think anyone is debating that issue – or whether the attedees enjoyed themselves. The issue is attendance and cost.

I think it is great that we are using different facilities, but it all comes down to cost versus attendance, and if the increased costs can be managed against income, and if it makes sense to go with a much more expensive facility given a possible drop in attendance, and the increased cost of that facility. Or, if those attending like the facility so much, if they are willing to pay more to stay there.

With regards to the "hard" floor issue. Something to be noted is the availability of those "miracles of engineering" chairs On Saturday afternoon when it seemed most crowded I found two racks of chairs, enought for the 10 or so players in the game and did not notice the hard floor. This is a better solution then the Host were on several occasions people have had to stand for most of the game.

I also must "apologize" as I was part of the Japanese fleet which caused some American ships to go ka-boom contributing to the noise in the room.

H-Con was not perfect but it was enjoyable. people who choose not go missed out on fun convention and seeing their friends.

Well one bonus to the new site is driving recruitment. Virginia is rich with history, and Northern Virginia in particular has a lot of former military with interest in this type of thing as well as enough wealth in it to support the hobby. This stuff isn't cheap. While the traffic is awful, there's a dense population base with the 4 of the 5 highest per capita incomes right up the road as well as several large game groups. I think as time goes by and word of mouth spreads the Con will see increased attendance due to those factors.

Its only the first year at the new site.

My two sons and I went. We live in the Philly area and really liked having the Con close to home for two years, but I have to say that I liked the Host more than VFCC because we had hotel rooms and I didn't have to drive a half hour to 40 minutes each way. I had hoped for a bonus in fig spending money since I didn't need a hotel room, but the boss said that is not how it works :). I was pleased when she said to go to Fredericksbug. It helps to have two gaming enthusiasts for sons :).
Here is my take on Historicon Fredericksburg:
The Drive:
We planned our drive to avoid the long rush hours, yes hours, in Philly, Baltimore and DC. We drove down Wednesday at 5:00. Since I live NE of Philly, I was going against most of the afternoon rush, which is not as bad in July due to vacations, and had little trouble. I expected more traffic south of the city, and there was more, but again it was not as bad as expected (July again maybe?). By the time we hit Baltimore the rush was not bad, but on the northern part of the DC beltway there was an accident that set us back a little while. We stayed over Wednesday night near Potomac Mills (My wife added the extra night after we booked the room months ago, and after later finding out that we had 10:00 games and that I planned on leaving between 3 and 4 am and that our hotel in Fredericksburg was booked she scheduled a stop before Fredericksburg). It takes about 4 to 4 and a half hours to travel there from my house (depending on the Maryland highway patrol and state police – man that state has a lot of them).
The cost:
My wife travels and has lots of hotel points so the hotels were free! Without this, we probably would not go unless I found a campground nearby. Gas is cheaper in VA than PA and I spent about $80 USD in gas and some more in tolls (Maryland and Delaware) I use Easy Pass and paid no attention to the toll cost (it is what it is). Food was bought at McDonalds and at the Expo Center. We brought snacks and drinks (cooler) and used Wawa Hoagie coupons for dinner as we left PA and ate on the road. I am a pretty good driver while eating a hoagie ;-).
The hotel(s):
Great suites at both free hotels, breakfast included and full kitchens. We were a couple of miles from the Expo Center for the days at the Con.
The Expo Center:
Nice roomy facility. Waaaaay too noisy as stated elsewhere. My sixteen yearold was complaining about the concrete floors and his feet and knees. He has battled Osgood Schlatter Disease, so it is more of an issue for him. My plantar fasciatus did not flare up as bad as it sometimes does, so I did not have too much of a problem with it, but I imagine our more rotund gamers did (I am not small at 6'1, 240, but feel so sometimes at the cons).
Food: Free breakfast was good, McDonalds for dinner was, well McDonalds. I didn't notice the Taco Bell until Saturday Night at 11:00PM. We gamed and shopped the whole time (as I usually do at the Cons – no site seeing for me), so the rest of the time we ate Expo Center food. Ok, but limited as stated elsewhere. Prices not too bad, the BBQ Pork sandwich with two sides was $7.00 USD and probably the best buy there. I did not notice the Beach Fries truck until Saturday after lunch when I had to walk to the Homewood Suites to play Close Action with Mark Campbell. Had a great time BTW, as I always do when I play CA. What is Beach Fries?
Gaming:
There were a ton of unused tables in the main hall, and with the noise level, maybe this was a blessing as if they were full, the noise would have been unbearable. My younger son had two games pre-registered for where one was cancelled (Phil Viverito, I hope everything is OK with Phil, one of the truly good guys in gaming), and one was a no-show which was disappointing (and since I know him I will keep his name out of it, and maybe he did not know that he needed to). As I understand it there were quite a few of these situations. As a consequence, one third of his games were cancelled. My older son and I missed one as well. When a guy is trying to sell his game as was the case here, not showing up may actually hurt sales. Otherwise the games we played were great.
We played two Napoleonic Field of Battle 2 games (French – Russian) with the HK Rats, Peter (Gonzalvo) Anderson, Joe Fish and Barry Frandsen. These guys really put together great convention games and are a lot of fun to play with. Borodino was an amazing undertaking (much like their Wagram game was several year ago). My boys and I enjoyed it immensely. We alos played in the aforementioned Close Action Frigate action fleet battle in a scenario from Mark Campbell's upcoming supplement to CA. Mark is a master at running these games. I don't know if other games were off site (out of the Expo center) as this was, but clearly not all of the games were played in the Expo Center. We played two games with my club mates, (the only members of our good sized club to make it were the 5 of us) Fireball Forward with Joe Seliga, a fun and simple WW2 game and Doug Lipton's Battle of San Juan Capistrano using Posse and Desperados rules. Doug does an amazing job of thoroughly researching any game project he does, building custom terrain and providing a historical narrative to the game that participants are sure to learn some small piece of unknown history. He even travelled to San Juan Capistrano and interviewed the local historians while researching the sites. Unfortunately, Doug had too few people show up for his games to bring everything out on the table as he planned. I highly recommend playing Doug's games in the future. We also wanted to thank the guys who threw together an Aerodrome game at 8:00 Saturday night and saved us from having nothing to do other than play A&A War at Sea with our own stuff (we could have stayed home and done that). I believe one of the gentlemen's name was John Allen. We enjoyed it so much that I bought Aerodrome 1.1 and some stands from RLBPS and some Wings of War planes from Cotton Jim (another fine gentleman of the miniatures world) Sunday morning. My younger son also had fun playing the Force on Force Fight at the Candy Store, and the Corwallis Gambit, my older son enjoyed the excellent looking Hornets Nest using F&F reg. I enjoyed my first game of Sharp Practice in Egypt 1799, Land of Mysteries and the terrific terrain and figs. Much fun was had by all.
Shopping:
I was disappointed that some dealers such as were unable to attend, but was really pleased with the ones who did show up. I spent money at Old Glory of course, Architects of War, Battlefront, Cotton Jims, Age of Glory, Eureka, RLBPS and bought paint from somewhere I can't remember. I was disappointed to hear that some dealers probably will not be back (Chesapeake Miniatures for one, who I have bought from, but didn't this year).
The flea market was disappointing for me, as I did not find anything that I really wanted, and the few tables that had stuff that caught my eye were swamped. Thursday's flea market was set up wrong for traffic. They used all of the front tables and left the tables to the back empty, consequently, it was very congested at the door and in the beginning of the flea market, and pretty wide open everywhere else. They should have spaced it out a little when they realized they had only a few sellers. There may have been reasons for the set up, so maybe I am being overly critical (and I really do not want to criticize any of our volunteers) of this. As I understand it, I am in the minority on this and that others really liked the flea market.
Overall:
We had a good time and if the boss allows will do it again (maybe try some other food venues). It is unfortunate that my club had such a poor showing, but with the economy, and other financial considerations I understand it. I do not think this Historicon was as well attended as others have been, and I have been going for about 20 years, but maybe it will catch on here as it did in Lancaster.

"

Disco Joe,

Wild speculation on YOUR part that it couldn't happen!!!

A tornado hit the F-burg area just a week before H-Con, and knocked down a warehouse, a dance school, and over-turned about 30 semi trailers less then two miles from the convention site.

If you're so sure the Host is disaster proof maybe you need to speak to the several thousand folks up and down the east coast that have been hit with a number of natural disaters this year. That, or maybe get a job in weather forecasting."

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I really think it is silly to move or not move a convention of this sort based on the overblown fear that a natural disaster will take out the venue. You are worrying about a very small chance of something happening. FYI, it would likelier be a fire than a tornado, but still a minute chance.

Wow…reading this…is interesting…

Allow me to make a few observations please….and FWIW, take it any way you want to…

Traffic:
Folks…for those of you living on the East Coast…YOU LIVE ON THE EAST COAST!…Traffic, (especially anything around NYC, Philadelphia, B'more, DC, NOVAG, etc…is going to be heavy…and gawd only knows when (not "if") some idiot is going to decide that "Texting is better than driving" and traffic gets worse due to an accident…
Simply put, there is no REALY easy way around DC, (from North To South or vice versa). Toll booths, cops wanting to increase their ticket quota, slow drivers in the fast lane, tailgaters, accidents, and the ever frequent all too common form of American Culture known as "Road Construction". It's bound to happen, and it's going to happen. Learn to deal with it.
And yes..it's just as bad from Dallas to Houston taking I45 south…250 odd miles of "mess"….
Indy is no better…we currently have approximately 250 road contstruction projects going on within the city limits SIMULTANEOUSLY…It's simply a price you pay for where you live.

Economics:
Okay…yes..times are tough…gas prices suck…etc…Please take that into consideration when thinking about "final count numbers" and whether it was a boom or a bust. Some folks won't want to make the drive, and some folks will…for me, I have to figure out if I can afford th 3.50+ gas to get there, lodging, food, fees, etc.. I'd have to travel through the "fun filled state of West Virginia", and pay tolls about every ten miles…plus any money for toys, etc…
Some folks probably planned on it, but found out at the last moment that they couldn't afford it…
I'm working now, and can just barely afford GenCon, and I live 10 minutes from it.

People:
People are people…this means that some of them will "love the site" and some of them will "hate it". Some of them will have valid reasons, some will have emotional ones, and some will have reasons that are on the borderline absurd. Politics and rumors will abound..People have their preferences. Some won't go because they've been "betrayed", and that the con has "moved south"…or some regional prejudical rot. Some won't go because it's now "out of their driving range", or because simply "it's not The Host", or because it's too hot, etc…etc…
It happens…
Personally I've never truly understood why some people continue to push for The Host…from the reviews of past Historicons, the lighting was bad, the food was bad, the parking was bad, the highway was always under construction, the bathrooms had issues also, the ac broke down, it was a minotaurs maze of corridors, and steps, and not very well set up for those with physical disabilities, there were massive mold issues in the rooms, many times the management was indifferent to suggestions, complaints, requests, it was loud also, and people risked their safety crossing the road to get to something to eat…
Many of the people who ardently defended it, simply did so, because they didn't stay there, (it was their day trip…drive down..do their stuff…drive home for dinner), without thinking about what the others had to deal with…"It's no problem long as I got mine"…seemed to be the attitude.

Now perhaps I am wrong, but a lot of the past writing seemed to be of that mentality.

Now lets look at another convention…Gencon…takes up the entire Indy convention center, (plus additional buildings and locations)…30,000+ people there last year…more expected this year…

Problems?: You betcha….
1: Noise: Gencon has carpetted areas and items to help absorb sound and it keeps the noise down to a low roar…
2: Bathrooms: Keep the convention center bathrooms clean is a full time job…if you think 3000 gamers are bad…try 30000+….
3: Parking: Parking garages and lots…price varies…how many people were paying for parking at Historicon and what were the prices?
4 People: You name it. It comes with the territory. Good folks, bad folks, self-centered wipes, those who sling backpacks and don't care who or what they hit..Deal with it, (or them) or don't…adapt or don't…evolve or die…

The FCC:
After reading the reviews and checking with a friend of mine in F'burg he said that "it looked like this was the largest show that the FCC has put on"…

So in essence this seemed like a growing and learning experience for the FCC too…

They will probably develop a "lessons learned" report and will work with future setups. Me thinks that we probably aren't the only ones that hav said something about the chairs, or the floor, or the noise.

Food at the convention center…Come on folks..most of us have been around the block to know that like airports, convention center food is usually bland to bleah, and is usually overpriced. There's better options out there, as shown in the reports. If you didn't take the time to check out the other venues and relied on "what the convention center offered", then whose fault is that?

Booze: Obviously you can get booze at the Wegmans, or around there, so those of you needing your alcohol fix, you are okay…if you are judging the convention by "whether or not you can carry alcohol, into it, or buy booze while there", then IMHO, I think you have more important problems to face rather than which game events are already full.

Hotels: The FCC has at least THREE very close hotels. From what I have read about them they are very nice with nice "extras", and no mold, (unlike the host).
There are also other nice hotels within a few minutes walk, or drive nearby. If you are one of the "angry ones" that griped because your hotel was a whole whopping 10 minute drive from the FCC, due to the other hotels nearby being full…then whose fault is that?…not the hotels…not other peoples…perhaps you should say "This teaches me a lesson to book hotels EARLIER"….

Overall:
I think a lot of people sat it out with a "wait and see" attitude. Being a first time con at this location, I can see the issues involved and how they need to be solved…(example: You don't like the chair? bring a seating pad, or your own padded folding chair..), but I also see room for potential growth. Like I said before HMGS still has two of it's three conventions in it's standard locations and the fact that some folks feel "betrayed" by the move to another location, (away from where they live and they might actually have to drive), is kind of silly.
True some people don't like to drive long distances…For me: G'burg is approx 12 hours, F'burg is approx 10 1/2, Origins is 3, Nashcon is 6, Little Wars is about 4, Advance The Colors is about 2 1/2, etc… It all depends upon your want to travel.
I think that in the long run when the actual numbers are run, people are going to be pleasantly surprised and this can be a good foundation to build on. At the very least you know that it can be here for a good amount of time and not get kicked out because of the site wanting to put in a casino, or is trying to force you to share your con space with a cat show….
For some of the folks, you could get a free king size suite right next door, give them free unlimited access to the con, 5 star meals, and and a end of the day hot oil rubdown by Salma Hayek and they still wouldn't be satisfied for some reason or other, ("It's not "The Host!", etc…)…

Actually the hot oil rubdown by Salma Hayek doesn't sound that bad…hmmm….*thinking*

For those of you that whined about "Not knowing what's there", may I suggest that you check out some of the sites concerning Fredricksburg when it comes to food, hotels, etc…There's plenty of information out there on the net to help you make your choices…

Let's see what comes out officially before wanting to drop the headsmans axe on it's neck yet…(although that won't stop some people)….

YMMV

Murphy

"As long as LIG (and the other whiners) stay away, Hcon will be fine. Wah…wah…it had to suck cause it was so far from my house…wah."

I agree with a previous poster who noted that LIG has been very involved with past Historicons. Agree with him or disagree, but this is someone with more of a stake in the convention program than most of the posters on here. He truly feels these moves have damaged the conventions, and, at least as far as numbers go, the move from the Host has been fairly disastrous, both financially and in terms of attendance.

"There are also other nice hotels within a few minutes walk, or drive nearby. If you are one of the "angry ones" that griped because your hotel was a whole whopping 10 minute drive from the FCC, due to the other hotels nearby being full…then whose fault is that?…not the hotels…not other peoples…perhaps you should say "This teaches me a lesson to book hotels EARLIER"…."

There is truth to what you say, but it is also a zero sum game. If one person reserves earlier, another gets bumped. It is still the same problem. You may not think it is a big deal, but simply shifting who gets an onsite room and who gets shut out doesn't change the macro dynamic.

But the zero sum game had the same issue when Historicon was at the Host. Convention centers don't get built with wargamers convention needs in mind. In particular the "need" for a minority that seems entitled to sleeping on site and when they can't they bitch like they were slapped with a wet fish and don't find a solution to deal with it but keep bitchin.

I agree with Murphy here on a number of points…especially the traffic one. There is always the traffic from people going on vacation, especially on Fridays and Saturdays, as this is when most condo/house leases are up. Everyone knows there is traffic around DC as well. Drove down from PA, and didn't hit one bit of traffic(took 81 to 66 and then to 17), bypassed all major traffic areas. Stayed off 95 the whole time as well. There are alternate routes around that hideous traffic, so why not take the extra 5 minutes and do a google map search and find alternate routes? Same with driving from the hotel to the con…never took 95, found another route that took the same amount of time without the traffic. Not very hard things to do…and a 10 minute drive from the hotel every morning was fine. Had to drive about 5 to 10 minutes anyways when I used to go in Lancaster.

Lots of great places to eat as well, went to an Italian place in downtown Fredericksburg and it was great, and the people were really friendly everywhere as well.

Parking wasn't really an issue either…got filled fast but could always find parking around the side. Maybe if they opened a side entrance or something for those who parked back there as it did rain one or two of the days there.

"But the zero sum game had the same issue when Historicon was at the Host. Convention centers don't get built with wargamers convention needs in mind. In particular the "need" for a minority that seems entitled to sleeping on site and when they can't they bitch like they were slapped with a wet fish and don't find a solution to deal with it but keep bitchin."

This is precisely the reason why these threads always devolve into insanity. Every time someone posts a completely legitimate issue, someone comes out of the woodwork with the "whiny, self-entitled" crap.

First of all, attending Historicon is not a civic duty, it is a choice for people to commit limited leisure resources. Make it difficult and they will pass. It looks like nearly a thousand of our fellow gamers have done just that since we left the Host.

Second, the Host had far more hotels very close, so this situation has gotten worse than it was before.

As to whether wanting to stay onsite at a convention is some sort of bizarre entitlement, I'd suggest you try to run a convention in the real world, where you will likely be laughed at if you suggest a venue with a grossly inadequate number of rooms.

I went to the convention. I stayed offsite. I thought it was a pain that detracted from the event. Next year I will reserve earlier if I go, and someone else will get bumped. Great solution.

Maybe that makes me a self-entitled baby. I don't know. But at least I don't feel the uncontrollable need to call everyone who disagrees with my assessments a whiner. Or maybe in the case of many of the reviewers, a homer.

FYI, regarding wet fish, there is no solution to inadequate nearby hotel rooms unless someone on here is going to build a new hotel down there.

I think it is fair an objective to say that FCC is a decent venue for Historicon, at least physically. I think it is equally fair to say it is not the little slice of perfection some have rated it.

People often confuse the good time they had with overall attendance and cost, as they only see their little view of the world. I understand that. And all facilities will have issues, but it does not appear the predicted "southern numbers" came out in any significant way, or if they did, the drop off from other areas attending was more severe than usual.

I'd also agree with others that since Hcon moved, many have not attended that did in the past, and the new venues did not generate enough new people to make up for their loss. Of course, that begs the question, if it moved back to the Host, would those numbers return?

I think it is fair an objective to say that FCC is a decent venue for Historicon, at least physically. I think it is equally fair to say it is not the little slice of perfection some have rated it.

And here I agree…but then we have to understand that there is no such thing as "the perfect spot" for our conventions…Whether it be bathrooms, parking, food, game master no shows (which you can't blame on the convention, BOD, OR the FCC), traffic, or lack of Salma Hayek hot oil rubdowns after a grueling day of playing an SPI board war game….
(Hint: If you make it past turn three on ANY SPI game you are doing good….and have ignored the contradictory rules)…

Until someone can suggest a site that is able to give us what we "want/need" and is able to accomodate the convention in better ways, AND HMGS makes a profit, then it seems that FCC is the better choice…
(And no..you can't bring up "THE HOST"…simply "because"…). Try to come up with a better alternative than something that wanted you to share your con space with a cat show….

YMMV

I agree with civil's review.

Two items I notes that I have not seen elsewhere. There should be easy fixes:

1) Game sign up – in past years there where flip charts with a listing of open games. You could look up the game in your booklet, then ask for a ticket. Filled games got crossed off. Those flip charts were not there Thursday through Saturday a.m. (not sure if they showed up after). You had to ask someone to check a number, they would look at the tickets on the board, tell you yes or no, rinse and repeat. Folks that did not re-reg found this tedious. Bring back the flip charts! It was a system that worked.

2) I found the area in front of game ticketing became a choke point. The ticket line went through the hall door way, coupled with folks chatting between the main hall doors and the ticket line resulted in traffic grinding to a halt. This happened on Thursday and Friday. A family emergency resulted in my leaving early Saturday morning but I can only imagine it got worse.

I agree with Murphy here on a number of points…especially the traffic one. There is always the traffic from people going on vacation, especially on Fridays and Saturdays, as this is when most condo/house leases are up. Everyone knows there is traffic around DC as well. Drove down from PA, and didn't hit one bit of traffic(took 81 to 66 and then to 17), bypassed all major traffic areas. Stayed off 95 the whole time as well. There are alternate routes around that hideous traffic, so why not take the extra 5 minutes and do a google map search and find alternate routes? Same with driving from the hotel to the con…never took 95, found another route that took the same amount of time without the traffic. Not very hard things to do…and a 10 minute drive from the hotel every morning was fine. Had to drive about 5 to 10 minutes anyways when I used to go in Lancaster.

Agree with the above. Although time conflicts kept me from Hcon this year, I drove to VA on the last weekend in June, ie; 4th of July weekend – leaving on Friday afternoon! Took Rte 301 down the Eastern shore and cut in through FBurg, about 4 hours from DE. Not bad for a 4 day weekend of gaming. The BOD is aware of the teething problems with the venue and hopefully get it sorted for next year (noise mainly). I'll certainly drive down. Another plus is the array of ACW sites close by of course.

"Until someone can suggest a site that is able to give us what we "want/need" and is able to accomodate the convention in better ways, AND HMGS makes a profit, then it seems that FCC is the better choice…"

So you know that the con at FCC made a profit, even including all the off-book expenses that should be charged to the convention?

Game sign up – Remember the KISS rule? Dump the tickets, let the people get to the game 10 minutes before to sign up. The tickets are more trouble and work than they are worth.

civildisobedience, apparently you have not read correctly what I was trying to say. All I was trying to do is respond to this post which was put on by vagamer63.
"Some folks are still under the delusion that Historicon will return to the Host in Lancaster. It's not going to happen, so get used to it. HMGS has already made the firm business decision that all three shows will not be held in the same facility ever again.

The reasons should be obvious, but as a quick review I'll offer a couple here. What if the Host goes bankrupt next week, next month, or 6 months from now? What if the Host suffers from some natural disaster? As happened to the Osprey "Military History Weekend" last year, when the original scheduled facility was severely damaged by a tornado a couple of months before the show date. What if the local government seizes the property for "another" use?"

So I was not the one who said things could not happen but if you read all the things he said could happen at the Host those same things could happen at the FCC. And yet he feels they will happen to the Host.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood anyone's post.

My point is simply that fear of natural disaster is a pretty poor reason to move. Same with bankruptcy and seizure.

All are unlikely. Bankruptcy, as remote a possibility as that seems for a facility so booked we are told there is no hope of going back, would likely be Chapter 11 and the hotel would continue to operate. Eminent domain would likely take years, giving us plenty of time to react in the unlikely event that the state of PA decides it must build a prison or something on the Host property.

Also, and I say this as someone who has beento every Hcon since 1990, if the stars crossed and a disaster struck, cancelling one Hcon due to acts of god would not be the end of the world.

The thing I don't understand about the event registration is why they have a system that makes it impossible for attendees to see what games still have tickets on the board. So you end up asking about ten events before you find one you wanted that was open. Would it really be that hard to make slightly larger tickets with a big label on the back?

What if the Host gets invaded by monkees? ( really really mean monkees)

See that's a reason to do Fredericksburg. (Best one I've seen yet, by the way)

What about marmots? They can be really annoying too! The Host could get infested with marmots and then we'd have to make room for Billy the Exterminator at the Con. Guess that rules the Host out.

What if one of the facilities got overrun by heavy, ponderous, anti-social, anti-bathing middle aged men, who were still living in their parent's basement…. oh… never mind. :-(

So you know that the con at FCC made a profit, even including all the off-book expenses that should be charged to the convention?

Nope…sorry historygamer…I never said I did know if the con made a profit….I'm saying give it a chance…some of you are so damn ready to write off the FCC and "want something else", but can't find just as good (or a better), venue than the FCC, so you push for the one location that is booked for the next couple of years as your answer and the only answer you can seemingly come up with…

Okay here's the task before you.

Find a convention center that has the following:

1: Has enough floor space that can hold LOTS of games…including multi-table tournaments, scheduled games, unscheduled games, and open games, without it being crammed like a cattle car…

2: Has floor space that is easily navigable…

3: Has enough floor space that is easily accessible to those with physical disabilities to be able to get around easily…

4: Has enough bathrooms for everyone…and that they all work.

5: Has the bathrooms cleaned as often enough to make everyone happy.

6: Has comfortable chairs for everyone.

7: Has proper and necessary lighting.

8: Is not "noisy".

9: Has a large enough dealers area.

10: Has a large enough flea market.

11: Has a tip top, cutting edge registration desk and section area that doesn't block hallways and exits with traffic.

12: Has plenty of parking and then some.

13: Has air conditioning that works to everyones satisfaction and could keep us coold during a Type 7 Solar Flare…

14: Has enough food choices ONSITE that offers plenty of tasty food choices for an excellent price in such amounts and varieties that it will please everyones palate.

15: Have enough entrances and exits to make loading, unloading, setup, etc…so easy it will be a crying shame.

16: Have onsite security for any issues.

17: Have a bar, or alcohol sales on site, or allows you to bring alcohol into the site.

18: Has a staff that is responsive, friendly, cheerful and professional and will try to do their damndest to take care of any and all issues and not meet you with indifference, or "whatever"…

19: Has a large amount of onsite or next door hotels that are clean, affordable, offer tons of perks, and are inexpensive, and free of mold, nasty carpet, or AC that doesn't work…

20: Has a wide variety of choices of eating establishments within 100 yards and you don't have to cross a highway to get to.

21: Has a wide choice of alternate hotels that fit the category of #19…

22: Has a wide choice of alternate eating establishments that fit #20…

23: Has traffic down to a bare bones minimum…

24: Is guaranteed to bring in record breaking numbers of attendees and games, on it's very first time….

25: Makes a profit for the organization….

and most of all…

26: Everyone is happy with because it's "so good and sooooooo inexpensive"….

Now…there's your mission and it's requirements…

Hop to it…Find that magical holy grail of a hotel/covention site….

And if you do, let us know what it is….

I did not go to Historicon -- No money (one of my rental properties needed some repairs). No time (wife had back surgery and I had to use up a fair amount of vacation for that -- so I cannot comment on the facility.

Considering that this is our hobby, which we do for pleasure, and that this pleasure is up to us, then people will go to wherever it is as the spirit moves them or conditions preclude them, but in the end we do what we do because it amuses us, and do not do some things because we do not find it pleasant.

Why then must some people take it as a personal affront if someone does not like something that they like, or if someone likes something that they do not? Why do we tell people to "get lost" or "shut up" or quibble about the justifications for their likes and dislikes? You will do nothing to convince them by attacking them, and you cannot expect that they will be unaffected when you tell them that their eyes did not see what they see, nor their ears hear what they heard, which is when you argue with their perceptions.

One person says the noise was terrible, another that it was not so bad. It all depends on the individuals sensitiveness to it and that will vary from person to person. It does not good to say for example "Well "I" drove from Outer Mongolia and therefore YOU should be able to drive an hour or two more!" What is too long a drive for one person might be nothing at all to a second.

You certainly will not convince anyone by arguing with them over their likes and dislikes of their hobby and what they wish to spend (in sweat treasure and time) on it.

Well Said Otto… now ""!

As someone who pretty much lives in the middle of all the locations 1:25 to Gettysburg, 1:48 to Fredericksburg, 1:50 to the Host, 2:20 to Valley Forge, 1:50 to the Penn Harris (most folks seem to forget about that one). I remember when we held Historicon in the bunker in New Carrollton, and the Best Western in Lanham, MD.

I thought the FCC was OK a bit noisy, and the concrete started to wear on me by the end of the day Saturday. (I was there since Thursday mid morning.) The dining choices there were fantastic if you went off site. My wife and little girl enjoyed the area and that certainly helps.

I think we should see the numbers and give it another year to see how it can adapt. I remember the cries that the world was coming to an end when we first moved Historicon from the DC suburbs to Harrisburg in the late 80's. Folks said that we would be lucky to get 200 gamers and we would lose money. Nobody would make the treck up to PA.

BTW Otto thanks for a great time earlier this summer everyone who attended was pleased.

Murphy:

You said, "… then it seems that FCC is the better choice…"

So you have made a decision that the FCC is better than any of the other sites we have been to. I asked you what facts you were using to come to that conclusion. You dodged the answer with a long rambling criterion list that has been reviewed by the BOD for many years.

The facts I have in favor of the Host, the Ike, or VFCC are attendance and cost. So what are your facts, other than perhaps you like the FCC (which may be a fact, but seems a poor one to make a business decision on)?

The questions for staying at the FCC are:

1. Did the con make money?
2. What is the reasonable expectation it will grow if left there (remembering that the hoped for southern hoards never showed up)?
3. Would the con do better and make more money going back to a previous facility (they are all about equa-distance from me, so I have no dog in that fight), especially now that Hcon numbers are near CW numbers?
4. If the con did not make "enough" money (taking into account Hcon's overall relationship to the HMGS budget), can other expenses be cut to compensate, or in the future, will people pay more to attend the FCC because they liked it so much?

Or let me put it another way. I could drive in a Mercedes Benz and really enjoy that car, but it doesn't mean I can afford to buy it. What you enjoy and what you can afford do not always have a relationship. Unless you are the federal government. :-)

History-- You have said the FCC is more expensive than The Host and VFCC, and that the "Southern hoards (sic) didn't show up". Do YOU have any proof of those assertions? And I think it's a little early to be saying attendance was down, too. If the numbers you guys were just making up out of the blue earlier were correct it had about the same number of people as last year's con. It's not the high numbers of The Host and its attendant boom times, but with the moves and the economy I don't think that's too bad. Staying in the same place for a few years will undoubtedly see the numbers grow.

I'd wait for the figures to be announced before I go having a huge debate about all this.

Historygamer, I've said no such thing. So stop putting words into my mouth. As I said, give them time to get the numbers out, and in the meantime why don't you look around for a better alternative to present, and preferably one that doesn't want to cram you up with a cat show?

I'm not looking to argue, but it's hard to characterize 2009 as "boom times." By any statistical economic measure, things were even worse in 2009 than they are now. I think record Hcon attendance was north of 4,000, and no one is using that.

It is true we don't have numbers yet from this year, and thus all the conversation is speculative. It certainly seemed smaller to me, and one thing is certain, that dealer area was smaller than the barn at Historicon.

I understand that people who like the new venue can get frustrated at what they see as others not giving it a chance. However, it is hard to argue that attendance has slid precipitously since the thing started moving around. It is equally frustrating to see every sort of excuse provided for that without even a passing nod that perhaps the original location was preferable to more attendees.

I keep hearing about the economy. The crisis hit in 2008. 2009 was a disastrous economic year, NOT some hand-picked record year chosen to skew numbers.

We'll know more when numbers are released, and we'll also have an insight into the financial viability of the location, though we will have to watch out for creative accounting in the numbers presented.

As long as LIG (and the other whiners) stay away, Hcon will be fine. Wah…wah…it had to suck cause it was so far from my house…wah

SMA1941, I don't normally respond to posts like this but your attacks are starting to get old. If you have something to add to a discussion, go right ahead. Even if you think that I'm completely wrong, that's perfectly fine. You can attack my point of view without making it personal.

However, you seem to want to take this to a personal level. If that's the case, why insult me over the internet? You can come to Fall In, I'm always at the WAB tournaments helping out. Just come over and ask for me. You can tell me what's bothering you. We'll discuss it and come to a resolution then and there. No need to drag anyone else into a personal disagreement.

Hop to it…Find that magical holy grail of a hotel/covention site….

And if you do, let us know what it is….

Darn Murph – all this time I though that was the exact description of the Murphy household. I was getting ready to make a trip to see you and deem it as the Mecca of Wargaming ;)

Who loves ya ??

Murphy:

If I misconstrued your post then I apologize.

You do seem traumatized by the cat show. :-) I think I missed that con. IIRC, that was the first FI at the Host when that con left the Ike, travelled around a bit, lost attendance, then returned to the Ike where attendance went back up. Hmmm. What's that saying about history repeating itself?

I would point out that both the VFCC and the FCC were considered by past BODs and dismissed. At this rate we are on track to end up at the BCC at some point to complete the circle of life. :-)

CD – the costs that haven't been added into the cons in the past were Painting U and the mailers. Not sure how they decided to charge them, but in my book, if it was at the con, or directly related to the con, then that's where it should be accounted for. Opinions may vary.

CD – the costs that haven't been added into the cons in the past were Painting U and the mailers. Not sure how they decided to charge them, but in my book, if it was at the con, or directly related to the con, then that's where it should be accounted for. Opinions may vary.

This much I heard from a very reliable source – the tables and chairs (which are normally rented at the other sites) were thrown in for free at FCC. I was told that probably saved roughly 15k

Nazrat:

You said: "History-- You have said the FCC is more expensive than The Host and VFCC, and that the "Southern hoards (sic) didn't show up". Do YOU have any proof of those assertions?"

Now you are putting words in my mouth. VFCC was a lot more expensive than the Host or the Ike. VFCC costs fluctuated in the second year as they redid the contract when they cancelled and then rebooked us. Look at the budgets for yourself though. It is all there.

"And I think it's a little early to be saying attendance was down, too."

Agreed, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet you on that, though the numbers are suspect whatever they report. I would also go with paid attendance as I really don't care how many wives, girlfriends, and kids wandered through there.

"If the numbers you guys were just making up out of the blue earlier were correct it had about the same number of people as last year's con."

The only number in question was the one David posted. I suspect David got that from a board member or con staffer, and I suspect it is in the ballpark. The BOD is briefed on preliminary numbers Sunday morning. Of course you could also compare the income from attendance and flea market tables this year to last too, and ignore questionable numbers. That would be a better metric than attendance I think.

"It's not the high numbers of The Host and its attendant boom times, but with the moves and the economy I don't think that's too bad."

If staying put generates greater attendance, then why did we move in the first place?

"Staying in the same place for a few years will undoubtedly see the numbers grow."

And what are you basing that ascertion on? One of the pros of moving to FCC was supposedly because so many more southerners would attend. If more did, then it apparently was not enough to offset the numbers of people from other places that did not. That's is a loss. I do not believe that past moves incurred a loss till FI moved from the Ike and Hcon moved to VFCC.

I'm not in love with the Host, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I felt the same way about moving FI too. Oh, when comparing those numbers, compare them against the proposed fee of $7 USDk that was offered by the Ike to come there, but turned down. Of course, that did not include table rentals, to be fair.

If they were folding chairs then I am not sure we got much value in that. You'd also have to compare the total costs of table rentals and facility rentals at the Host to overall facility costs at the FCC since table costs are folded into that. Any way you cut it, things have to be paid for one way or another. No doubt the FCC is cheaper if you don't need tables.

Murphy nailed it, should be a no brainer to find a place that meets all 26 of those requirements.

I started going to Historicon back in the late 90's; just curious what people were saying about the Host the first year after the con moved from the Penn Harris regarding the rooms, the gaming area, the food, etc, etc, etc.

Several years after the move, the Host started taking heat; lousy food, the hotel was a dump, dealer hall too small, gaming area spread out too much, etc, etc.

I was one of those who opposed the move from the Host to Baltimore, was happy to see it land at the VFCC; others were not happy with that move either, the center was a dump, the food was lousy (it amazes me people expect 5 star dining at convention centers), the gaming area was split between two hotels, etc, etc.

Now the convention lands in Fredericksburg and the complaints continue, no connecting hotel, bathrooms were dirty (maybe they should assign staff to clean them 24/7 while the con is going on or people should aim better or lay off the burritos at WaWa's), can't bring your own booze into the center, the food blows, too noisy.

As much as I did not have issues with the Host, the fact of the matter is it's an old creaky hotel with a tennis barn converted to a dealer hall and gaming that is spread out across the countryside with lousy parking, I'd hate to see Historicon end up back there, it would be a step backward.

I loved everything about Historicon; the hotel I stayed at, the incredible amount of dining options in the area, how easy it was to get around the area, the crowd that showed up, meeting SO many new customers and seeing old favorites who swore they wouldn't come (and you know who you are….;)), chatting with several gamemasters who were super friendly, on and on it goes for me.

It was the first time there and the largest convention they've ever had there; give the good folks who run the place and work there a chance to improve our experience before you rip the place to shreds, hopefully things will get better and the kinks worked out going forward, HMGS needs to get with those there in charge and try to improve the things that truly need improving.

To each his own, I hope it stays at the FCC for a long time……………

Wargamers' Terrain here.
The convention was a big success for us, being our first. We did quite well and sold out of quite a few things and had many orders.
We had no issues with noise and found the food to be ok+. while the bathrooms were clean and in good shape.
My only complain is the WiFi..having to keep signing on was a real pain in the posterior.

BUT..bottom line, I will be back next year, but will take a different route. 95 was a nightmare…A total mess.

cheers and thanks to all our current and new customers for making this a full success.

Joe

Haaarummph! I gotta agree with Double G, not only was that authentic frontier jibberish, I'm especially happy the children were able to hear that! He NAILED it. The only difference I have with his post is I started going in the early 90's. BTW, Double G, sorry I missed ya, I came by twice, but you had stepped away both times! I really wanted to talk to ya! We'll have to do that next year, in Fredericksburg!
Peter

Oh, and as far as the assertion that Long Island Gamer is a 'whiner', I can't say I care for expressing it in that terminology. That being said, the first thing I saw when I was getting excited about Historicon this year on the topic on these boards was this:

I'm sure there area allot of disgusted people right now. They've put Historicon out of reach of the people that have supported it all these years. They've decided they want HCon to be a southern convention.

If you see a board member, tell them how disgusted you are. Most importantly, vote with your wallet. Just don't go.

From Long Island Gamer.

I see someone that is actively trying to sabotage the change. The people that are doing so seem to be a group from New York City that don't like the fact the drive is longer for them – and are being extremely aggressive about it.

Do you think that is "extremely aggressive?"

No doubt, LIG is upset about the move and the whole way it was done. Yes, he did suggest that people who were upset about the move not go, but I would hardly characterize this as aggressive.

FYI, I think LIG is actively trying to undo the change as I believe he thinks it is bad for the convention and the society. However, I would say that "sabotage" is a highly prejudicial term that is inaccurate.

Did Historicon make or lose money? I don't know. Why not let's wait for the financial report.

Attendance. Whenever you move a convention you can expect to lose about 10%. We did so when we moved to Harrisburg and again to Lancaster. I suspect it will increase next year as gamers get used to comming to Fredricksburg.

Tables and Chairs. It is my understanding that the CC mostly is used to hosting dinners and wedding receptions. In any event HMGS can expect to pay caterers from $7 USD to $10,000 USD for tables which are not as well kept as the CC's.

Overall, attendance was good, the facility is new and clean with room to grow, the food was good, the adult drinks were well poured and reasonably priced, the local hotels are mostly new and well kept, there are tons of restraurants in the area and the non-union help were friendly and helpful.

Were there problems? Yes! There are problems with all conventions especially conventions in new locations. The bathroom facilities need be improved, transportation from the CC hotels has to be on a regular basis and there is a need for the CC to set-up a tavern or bar area because of the lack of hotel bars. And that's only a start. As you leave a convention in a location you and the hotel or CC become more familiar with the needs as well as improvements.

Now I haven't a clue what the costs were but I would bet that Hiatoricon could pay $30,000 USD for the facility and still make some money. Time, however, will tell. Meanwhile HMGS is committed to 2013 and if the board is smart it will continue to search for alternative locations.

What is knowable is both gamer and dealer attendance was good with the liklihood of increasing in 2013, the threatened alternative convention in Lancaster never occurred and given the sppearent success of Fredericksburg is most likely a dead issue and the NJ convention which was fronted as a rival wasn't.

Bob Coggins

From Long Island Gamer.

I see someone that is actively trying to sabotage the change. The people that are doing so seem to be a group from New York City that don't like the fact the drive is longer for them – and are being extremely aggressive about it.

Hmm… interesting. I never looked at it from Demiurgex's point of view. I think the terms "aggressive" and "sabotage" can carry allot of connotative meanings. Let me clear the air on some things…

1) The BoD supposedly looked at allot of different sites. Baloney. It was told to me well over a year ago that they were moving to FCC – When the first issues with the VCC came up. This same person told me about Baltimore long before anyone mentioned it. And these aren't the only things he's told me that are accurate.

2) I believe in in Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience". The BoD simply don't want to listen. They put themselves into some nasty spots because they don't listen. They burn money like water because they don't listen. When this happens, I feel I have no other choice but to strike out and hit them where it hurts – in the wallet. Did you ever see how much they spend on the "painting university"?? Where's the darn ROI on that? The Gay community use this technique quite effectively. I've been a member of HMGS for roughly 16 years now. I'll be darned if I continue to see this keep happening.

3) Boycott Historicon. Yep – I believe that strongly. Why? Because everything the BoD do, they do with lack of information. They have fantasies of pulling in millions of people from the South. This theory has been going around since the Panzari days. James Mattes talks about his demographics supporting this. So far, from what has been batted around, the numbers do not support the fantasies. I'll reserve judgement until the final numbers appear.

4) Sabotage, an act of destruction or interference intended to weaken an opponent (from Wikipedia). I think that is a term that is a bit to harsh here. Yes, I would think a boycott is necessary to attract the attention of the BoD and get them off their high horse. Sabotage – no, I never went that far.

To sum it up – I'm sick of the BoD's antics. I'm sick of the lack of communication from them. If this means boycotting Historicon – I'm all for it.

Do you think that is "extremely aggressive?"

No doubt, LIG is upset about the move and the whole way it was done. Yes, he did suggest that people who were upset about the move not go, but I would hardly characterize this as aggressive.

From:

TMP link

Long Island Gamer 22 Sep 2011 4:40 a.m. PST

Let's hope the convention falls flat on it's face.

Long Island Gamer 22 Sep 2011 4:50 a.m. PST

Hopefully, you'll have plenty of rooms. Lots of them. All empty.

I'll leave it to the individual reader to see whether there's any aggression there.