"Historicon Review" Topic

There's a significant number of other people that claim scheduling or finances as the cause.

Looks split pretty even to me.

Then there's the gaggle of less-than-intelligent that boycotted because the venue was in Virginia.

Meh.

Does it produce a unified list, a mailing list, or more pertinently does it produce ANY reports, abstracts, downloads, or statements? If not, what exactly DOES it do?

I found it is very good at holding up registration at the Cons. It's very good at that!

Hmmm……that's a strange bug. My post fryes this morning ust got reposted.

Hmmm……that's a strange bug. My post from yesterday just got reposted.

That's another problem.

I will not quibble the amount that some have posted on the cost of the registration system. If it was a one-time purchase that is one thing, but if it is $XXXX.XX a year that we pay for use licensencs (and while not an IT guy, this IS within my balliwick when it comes to contracts and licensing feeds) then there HAS to be a tech support service that goes with such on-going payments. So if there is a tech support service, why can't we get any.

Or did we not buy that either?

So if we cannot know what the real data is?

If we cannot know what the registration system actually does?

Can we at least know if it was a one-time purchase, or if it is an ongoing license use purchase?

Of course we won't ever get that answer.

Therefore, once again we must rely on anecdotal information and what furtive bits are passed along from insiders, and of course that which our eyes tell us, and our ears hear.

Otto:

If you are an HMGS member look up the budgets. It is all there, this is not a secret. It is not unreasonable that any convention operations will need software support, and that those costs might be on-going to some degree. What you get for your money is another matter.

Dear History gamer

Agreed.

But that loops back to "what does it do?"

Which again loops back to information.

This is just another example of apparently poor judgement being made worse by secrecy and arrogance. HMGS's needs for a registration system are minimal.

Looks split pretty even to me.

JT8, many of those who prefer the FEC happily come to the Host for Cold Wars and Fall-In. Many want it to stay in F'burg simply to prevent another move and thereby staunch the decline in attendance.

Then there's the gaggle of less-than-intelligent that boycotted because the venue was in Virginia.

What's a "gaggle" where you come from? I count one.

I did't boycott Historicon and I have nothing against Virginia besides geography. I didn't go because the move added 6 hours driving to an already exhausting haul. If that makes me "less than intelligent" then you may have to work on your "Southern Hospitality".

I think he's confusing the fact it happens to be in VA with the fact that for many, the move added more hours of driving than they were willing to do. The fact it is in VA, south of the Mason-Dixon line, etc., is immaterial.

Just another way to obfuscate and attempt to ridicule anyone who doesn't love the new location. Why argue facts when you can just dismiss the other side as ignorant bigots prejudiced against an area of the country?

link

This was on another discussion. Didn't see it here.

Dear Civil

I made some calls. I have it on excellent and unimpeachable authority (a former convention director) that "The System" DOES give out daily totals of badges sold and a total of monies received and these are reviewed by the Convention Registrar. These are therefore available.

Why it takes two months to get a definitive total (as opposed to a preliminary estimate) therefore remains an even bigger mistery.

He also told me that he HAS spoken to people at Origins who complain about the system as much as we do, and that they hate it as well. This goes to the question of due dilligence, as to why, if Origins hates it so much, why we decided to adopt it as well.

John Drye has released preliminary figures of 2700. Want to be this will slowly, over time wind up around 2980? They always seem to grow over time.

Disclaimer. While I am an HMGS officer (Webmaster), I am NOT speaking for the organization, only for me.

I swore I wouldn't but . . . I think I have a solid, alternative reason as to the declining attendance issue, something I've heard anecdotally from my own (rather large) circle of friends, and now have noticed likewise on another thread. Yes, some didn't go to the FEC due to money, dates and location, but a LOT of folks I know begged off simply because they were tired of the egos and politics that got us to this point, and they are looking for the proverbial dust to settle and a sense of normalcy to return. They want stability in the form of a convention home that doesn't move. If the FEC halfway works, keep it there, AND DON'T MOVE AGAIN! Then they'll return.

Me, I like Lancaster because of population demographics, but FEC for everything else. My only issue was the toilets and here I'll give the FEC a bye. It was the largest crowd they ever supported, and they likely did not anticipate the camping out mentality of our attendees, nor its unique demographic (90% male, 5% female, 5% pig). I'll give a final judgement on this one next year.

Otherwise, 713+ posts? Geeeeeeeze! With all the angst and animosity on this thread over a hobby, have you considered just staying home and going to work? You might find it more relaxing.

JMTSW YMMV

Warmest regards,

/// BILL ///

Wilbur E Gray
Colonel, US Army (Ret)
AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+

ageofeagles.com

"The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides

Dear Bill

Agree completely as to the main reason. That's mine. The distance, money and tight vacation tim were only the straws that broke the camels back. I drive 2 hours one way each day to work so the drive doesn't really frighten me.

However the main reason you noted is spot on. Two years ago at Cold Wars I was driving the four hours and I was becoming more and more steamed at the "egos and politics that brought us to this point" and the point itself, so that when I finally got to the Host, I was so steamed I wanted to turn around and go home. I can't take an 8 hour drive to FCC and borrowing a lawnmower all the way. Lucily when I got to Cold Wars the first person I met was Rich Low and then Andy Turlington and his eternal cooler, and I was able to simmer down with my friends.

But you have hit the nail right on the head. I make no bones about it, I'm a "Host till crack of Doom" man myself, but right now Ifeel that it doesn't matter where it is, the HMGS has to keep it there for a decade for all the dust to settle and the bad blood get watered down. Also, the HMGS has to stop treating its membership like serfs with contempt.

That's far too reasonable a post to put on here, please remove it! :P

Bill,

I also agree pretty much with everything you said. I have one comment, and I'd be very interested to hear your take on it.

I know many people who are turned off by the egos, etc. I have many friends in this camp as well. From the people you know, do you think they would be more easily rallied (to borrow a term from our subject matter) by a long term commitment to stay in Fredericksburg or by somewhat of an admission the move was a mistake and a return to the Host?

Honestly, I don't dislike FCC. It's nice. But my gut tells me these people aren't coming back while it is there. Of course, I just don't know. I'd love to know what you think.

Otto,

This is just part of the problem. Why are they buying an expensive registration system in the first place and doing so without vetting it properly?

IMHO, stay at the FEC.

Warmest regards,

/// BILL ///

Wilbur E Gray
Colonel, US Army (Ret)
AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+

ageofeagles.com

"The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides

Otherwise, 713+ posts?

Well, we had to wait that long to get some good, funny lines. I like this one of yours, when describing our demographic:

"….. unique demographic (90% male, 5% female, 5% pig)…."

Lol. Except I suspect the estimate for females is too high, and the estimate for pigs too low.

I also chuckled over Firstvarty1979 comment:

"That's far too reasonable a post to put on here, please remove it!"

Both worth the wait.

Here I go out of Lurker mode again…

>they likely did not anticipate the camping out mentality of our attendees

They certainly didn't, one set of thrones was closed (in front of dealer hall, at least on Thursday and Friday)

As for egos ruining things, I don't even think about it on the way there, I'm baffled to think how anyone can take their mind of a solid couple days of gaming and shopping…

Since a BOD member is reading this, the only real problem is the lines for registration – not that they are long, just unorganized. At rush hours you should consider having someone at the back of each line letting people know which line it is – nothing worse then getting in a line thinking it is for X when it turns out being for Y.

Bill:

While I don't question for a minute what guys in your group are saying, I know the guys in my group are not involved or aware of any HMGS politics. They attend, or don't attend simply based on location, date, and availability. That is it. While I suspect some might go or not go based on HMGS politics (not a good reason not to go, in my opinion), I would be surprised if that impacted any significant numbers one way or the other. That's just my opinion.

I am sure Hcon will be at FEC for at least another year so I guess we'll see how it does during its time there.

I don't think its politics and egos, per se, but how those two items have manifested themselves into yet another move, another new location with new lodging and dining issues, etc, etc, etc. Move again and you have to deal with these concerns all over again, not to mention yet another round of bitching from those who wanted to stay, those who wanted to move somewhere else and so on.

FEC seemed to work OK, so stick with it for a while and see what happens, that's what I'm hearing.

Warmest regards,

/// BILL ///

Wilbur E Gray
Colonel, US Army (Ret)
AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+

ageofeagles.com

"The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides

What I wonder is why so many are so concerned about a hobby convention. 2700, 2980, or 3245 attendance numbers--does it really matter?

But this topic will go on and on no doubt to eventually die out when shear exhaustion simply takes hold.

Bill, while it seems like a LOT of posts, in reality a significant, LARGE number of posts come from about 4 people.

Send me an email and I'll tell you which posters to "stifle" even temporarily; its easy to see the impact when their posts are grayed out…I don't leave them stifled because I am interested in what they have to say. BUT there are pages of this thread that are pretty much grayed out with a post here and there.

At some point what more can one say about your position? It is what it is.

Ok, you don't, or do like the Host/FEC. Fine.

Now lets see what you are going to do about it. What action are you willing to take?

As the saying goes, "When all is said and done, more will be said than done." In our case a LOT, LOT LOT more.

"I made some calls. I have it on excellent and unimpeachable authority (a former convention director) that "The System" DOES give out daily totals of badges sold and a total of monies received and these are reviewed by the Convention Registrar."

It does not give out monies received in any way shape or form. It cant even tell if a transaction was cash, check or credit card.

Kevin Kelley

Eureka! I got it! Let's hold the next Historicon under a circus tent in a state park exactly equidistant between Boston and Charleston. Seems somehow appropriate.

Dear Kevin

Very interesting. I shall tell the person concerned he is mistaken.

But then the fact remains, what exactly DOES it do for us?

If not, then why did they buy it. If it is so bad, why do we still have it.

Otto

Dear Kevin

I just got off the phone with the individual and he has SEEN reports being run from the system, and the Registrar checking cash against the reports to make sure money wasn't missing. Therefore at Fall-In! or Cold Wars, I will introduce you two (a mere formality, you already know each other) and you may resolve this discrepency with him, and we will be able to establish exactly what is happening.

Is there perhaps a misunderstanding on the system used? If the registration system does not provide these things, then are you using some other system to arrive at the data? If so then the dilemma remains. You either HAVE the data or you DON'T.

Otto

Eureka! I got it! Let's hold the next Historicon under a circus tent in a state park exactly equidistant between Boston and Charleston. Seems somehow appropriate.

Per google map that would put it in Prince William Forest State Park, just outside Quantico, Va. Or about 8 miles North of Fredericksburg.

Assuming you meant Charleston, SC.

Or about 8 miles North of Fredericksburg.

Now THAT is funny!

Cool.

But shouldn't it be a bit further west, but still within the eastern portion of the country? Perhaps equidistant between Fredericksburg and Louisville? So, a location 280 or do miles, as the crow flies, due west of Fredericksburg.

The question would then become, could we find a large enough piece of flat ground upon which to pitch the circus tent. I mean West Virginia has all those mountains. Might be the next major challenge for the BOD.

So, Charleston,WV.

I'd go, never been there.

Not to be confused with CharlesTOWN, WV, home of the Racetrack/Casino. link We could put the tent up right in the middle of the racetrack infield. There's lots of parking and attached hotels. It's perfect! But haven't we already done the Horse and/or Casino thing?

Well the good thing about that place is they already have dice. :-)

So, Charleston,WV.

Great idea. We could hold historical games in CharlesTOWN and VSF and other non-historical games in Charleston … in order to avoid confusion. We'd need another circus tent though. No shortage of clowns, however.

I used to live in Charlestown, so I know the difference. Though maybe we could rent the old armory in Harpers Ferry.

Is there perhaps a misunderstanding on the system used? If the registration system does not provide these things, then are you using some other system to arrive at the data? If so then the dilemma remains. You either HAVE the data or you DON'T.

Otto,
No misunderstanding on the CRS system. I use the actual money that goes in the bank as data, not 'head count', not the CRS. The CRS produces badge counts by type, you can multiply badge type by badge cost but thats not a "direct" $ report. It fails to account for badge dupes. I can also demonstrate CC charges that never appear in the CRS output, and other odd things. I was at the count out for FI 11, CW12 and HCON12 and no cash reconciliation with a CRS report took place. My job is the bottom line, and its not my place to report or comment on con attendance.

You can read in the 2011 HCON AAR about the left over $. USD You can also read in my 2011 end of year report about the membership renewal revenue discrepancy. It took several months for CW12 dir to come up with his final numbers, this was addressed on the HMGS forum.

I'm not a fan of the CRS, but the risk to change over to 'plan b' is substantial. Better the devil you know…

See you at Fall In, not on Halloween and hopefully not a weather event.

Kevin

Kevin

But that's not the point. The issue here is NOT the vagaries of the CRS system OR who does what OR what procedures area. The issued is DATA. Specifically DO THE POWERS THAT BE (Bod, convention directors) GET ANY DATA OUT OF OUR SYSTEMS (crs or otherwise)? If we DO get it, then why does it take three months before the final figures are out, and if we DON'T get it,-- well then where DOES the data we do get come from?

Secondly one might ask-- you use the actual monies that go to the bank as data-- but wait! Even THAT is data, data, which again, we never see. All of this is in regard to those who keep slanging the people here with using "anectdotal information" rather than real data and our response that we HAVE to real information and all we can get is anectdotal from our friends and those not "sitting on the cool table."

But in the interim, I have had contact with a different former convention director and he says there is a count of money and it's done daily, agreeing completely with the first convention director I cited. So that's two.

Finally, if in FW11, CW12, and HC12 no cash reconciliation took place, then how do you know that money did not evaporate from the cash drawer before the end of the day?

Once again, all of what you say is informative but not helpful to the issue. There either IS data, or there ISN'T and if there is, why don't we get it till it's been stepped on several times, or if there isn't why not.

It goes to the issue of trust.

As for "the devil you know" all I can say that business' who use that mantra are not in business long.

Otto,

The next layer down from the financial reports I do is the bookeeping ledger/journal. The Financial oversight committee (FOC) has access to these, they are in EXCEL/pdf. Next layer down is actual expense receipts and invoices, and on the revenue side personal check, PayPal and credit card transaction records plus of course our online banking. The FOC has on occaision accessed this level but for obvious reasons I cant just give out the account number and passwords to these to all who ask. I'm not real sure how to grant access here so personal identifying info is not revealed which is big trouble to say the least.

The money is counted at shift change by two people and put in the HOST safe, or in the case of FECC the bank, the cash box is under 2 person control at registration. There really isnt an opportunity for 'evaporation'. One of the first things I made sure of when I took this job.

What is NOT done – in the last 3 CONS I cited – plus HCON 2011 if you read the Con Dir AAR is a daily cross check between $ in box and CRS $ figures because the CRS cant output if the transaction was cash/check/CC. Also its pretty clear you have not read my 2011 end of year report which touches on this issue.

I bring a complete set of 'the books' to each con and have offered to sit down with anyone and answer any question as best I can after the memberhip meeting. I will be there at Fall in.

Kevin

dear Kayjay

You're just not getting it. It's a very simple question which you are hugely overcomplicating by going into procedures and data and history and you rown responsibility and actions.

That's not the issue. The whole point of this tack on this thread was with people who were attacking respondents with quoting "anecdotal data" and not using the real date. My point is that there IS no real data and we never receive it till months after the fact and it is has been stepped on several times, which goes to the issue of trust, and which forces people to rely on anecdotal data which is all they have.

As I said, you either HAVE data or you don't and raw data is often the best simply because it's raw.

Your responsibility and action is, sad to say, irrelevant for this has been going on a LONG time before you came on the board. You are, I know trying to make things better, but again that's not the point. Once again- the questions remains. IS there date or is there not!?

I'm saying that if the HMGS wishes to have people trust it and trust it's data, it can't be released three months after the fact after a long broughaha of difficulty that makes a hamster giving birth to a cow look simple and painless. That's the problem Kevin. Otherwise you will continue to have people going to anecdotal data because they don't have anything else. Look at your second explanation. You're getting into committees,excell spread sheets, and who does what. Not an issue.

The issue again is this.

At the end of the day does ANYONE know how much money was taken in, and does ANYONE know how many badges were issued. If the answer to that is "yes" then that is data and it shoudl be released as imperfect as it is simply because "imperfection" will remain a general constant. On the other hand if the answer is NO then that means there IS no data and the anecdotale is all we have.

It's really quite simple, and all the talk about all the HMGS horses and all the HMGS men is really superfluous.

And, you will notice, no one has answered it.

Anyway, I've gotten my answer.