"Historicon Review" Topic

Are you seriously suggesting I am somehow foolish or naive for not thinking that HMGS needs to consider natural disasters as a reason to use two locations? Seriously?

You really feel this is a likely scenario? Honestly, I really don't even know how to respond to that.

Civil – have you considered the Mayan predictions for the end of the world? First Dick Clark is gone, Historicon goes to FCC and now doubt about Cold Wars and Fall In. Well played Mayans, well played…

I think it is clear that Hcon was moved out of Lancaster for fear of an Amish uprising. It was then moved out of Valley Forge for fear of a Quaker uprising. It has been moved to the wilds of VA where it will be safe until Burnside tries to get over the river. Then, all bets are off. :-)

To be honest if Burnside is the only threat . . .

Good point :-) Don't they loot the town though?

"FYI, for FCC shills blaming video games, google video game sales. Down in 2010, down in 2011, down so far every month in 2012. Nice try, though."

I'm assuming you're referring to the drop in console game sales. PC game sales are on the rise. Console game accessory sales, the individual games, continue to rise. Console system sales, the actual gaming systems, are on the decline. This is likely due to the fact that the current seventh-generation console systems are at the end of their life-spans. The eighth-generation systems will begin to be released in 2013. No one is going to buy a brand-new $200 USD or $300 USD console when it is going to be obsolete next year. And don't forget that when game systems are first released they are more expensive. After a year or two the systems are discounted by a significant amount, so lower sales numbers doesn't necessarily mean fewer console systems are being sold.

My guess is that when the new generation of consoles are released sales will skyrocket for a couple years and begin to decline after everyone has bought the new system. Accessory sales will continue to rise even as console sales decline. I think PC games now have a larger market share than console games and most video game analysts believe PC game sales will continue to rise as they offer a cheaper alternative to console games.

Jeremy,

You figured it out. LIG, HG, 366, Gil, and the other 850 of us have all been locked in a room playing Call of Duty, but I snuck out to go to the convention.

And here I thought demographics and economics had something to do with it. I give up. FCC is wonderful. Do you think they'd let me live there? I don't need much space.

I was going to go to Fall In, but I don't want to go to any convention that is not held at FCC. Anyone who doesn't go to FCC every chance they get is a fool. Do you hear that? You are all fools! See, I just dissed almost all my friends. But they haven't seen the light. And I will suffer no one who slanders the mighty FCC.

"And here I thought demographics and economics had something to do with it. I give up. FCC is wonderful. Do you think they'd let me live there? I don't need much space."

Your problem with alternative causes seems to be that as soon as someone proposes an alternative cause you argue against that specific point as if the one who proposed it believes it is the only reason for the drop in attendance. You suggested that people should "google" video game sales and see that sales have been down in recent years. My last post was not to argue that video games are the only reason keeping all 850 people away but to show that your assertion that all video game sales are down is taking into account only game console sales. PC game sales are up. Game console accessories sales are up. Sales of the game consoles themselves are down likely due to the current game systems being five years old and a new generation of consoles about to be released. It is another example of you taking a specific data point that suits your views and using it to prove your point without context.

Jeremy,

When I talk about demographics, I am talking about population densities in general, and the distribution of HMGS members in particular (as evidenced by a map posted on this site).

When I discuss the difference in attendance, I am talking about direct comparisons of two locations just a couple years apart, and the numbers are HMGS's own.

When I talk about people I know, or anyone else on here does, we are talking about actual past attendees (who have gone to most of the Hcons) who did not/will not go to FCC.

If you cannot see the difference between this type of rationale and throwing up video games (or natural disasters, etc.), then I simply don't know how to explain it any better. I'm really not trying to be disrespectful or insulting, but it is just hard when people are so resolved to insist that it really, really, really isn't the location that drew fewer people. It's just an amazing coincidence.

I don't even dislike FCC, and while I don't love the drive it's not a huge deal for me. But lots of people won't go. Some of us said this before the convention, and now it has been shown to be true. I know that people will continue to come up with reasons…any reasons…other than the fact that a lot of people don't like the location.

I find it hard to believe that you seriously think that the impact of video games on gaming convention attendance has been so profound as to account for a meaningful number of the missing attendees.

There is no particular evidence to suggest that computer games draw people from minis. The mini market has grown as the computer game market has over the years. I'm not saying it is impossible that it has an effect, but what evidence is there to support it? If you can't show a negative impact ever before, how can you assign such a massive impact to it now? I know you are not saying all 850 were due to video games, but surely you were implying that a meaningful percentage were…otherwise, why bring it up at all in the debate?

If I wanted to argue the point further I would also suggest that rising PC sales simply offset plunging console game sales…in other words, not more gaming, just a shifting of platforms. But it is a silly argument.

"When I talk about people I know, or anyone else on here does, we are talking about actual past attendees (who have gone to most of the Hcons) who did not/will not go to FCC."

The problem I have with this is that you point to anecdotal evidence of people saying that the location is their reason for not going and say this is the sole reason. Obviously some people have chosen not to go because of the location. Maybe this is majority of the 850 non-attendees but it is impossible to know for sure.

People have also stated on this site that they did not attend because of the bad economy. You seem to ignore this anecdotal evidence and say that the continued bad economy cannot possibly be affecting the convention any worse than 2009 because the economy was poorer in that specific year. My argument is that at least a portion of the 850 non-attendees did not attend because of the continued bad economy.

As far as the video game comparison goes it is certainly a hypothetical but I do not believe it is unreasonable to think that it could affect attendance in some way, even if it only accounts for 1% of the non-attendees. Video games affecting the convention would be a longer-term trend that may not show results over a one- or two-year period, but over a five-, ten- or twenty-year period it may show some results and goes hand-in-hand with the idea of an aging gaming community. This is likely an unknowable factor as I would venture a guess that no one is going to fund a study to show if younger people are turning to video games in lieu of historical wargames.

If the Historicon community is indeed an aging community then it likely loses some members each year because they are no longer able to travel or due to death. Some of these members are likely replaced by younger folks joining the ranks, but if some people are not replaced because of younger folks turning to video games instead, or any other reason for that matter, then the community declines even if it is just a small amount per year. If the community loses twenty members every year but only ten are replaced for whatever reasons then the community loses ten members. Ten members may not account for many from year to year but after five years that may account for 50 members.

So my new hypothetical is this. What if the 850 non-attendees broke down something like this: 400 because of the location; 200 because of the continuing bad economy; 200 because of less advertisement; 50 because of aging members not replaced by younger members. This would seem to be a relatively reasonable way of explaining the lost attendance, albeit hypothetical. If this hypothetical were true you could say that the location has indeed hurt attendance levels and it may be a serious problem that needs to be dealt with, but this hypothetical takes into account that various other reasons may also be to blame.

Just because the move away from the Host is, in your opinion, "the only identifiable variable between 2009 and the present" doesn't mean there aren't any other variables. Some folks who seem to be in the know have talked about a 30% drop in attendance between Historicons 98 and 99 and how the convention continued to decline through 2001 while the convention was at the Host. The convention then grew from there back to previous levels but it took years to do so. What were the variables that caused this massive drop and slow growth back to earlier levels? Obviously it was not a move away from the Host and the demographic base.

Jeremy,

Statistical analysis relies on analyzing the differences between the two subjects under comparison. Certainly there are myriad reasons why people attended or did not attend Historicon 2012, but we are concerned with why so many fewer attended this year than in 2009. That the location changed is self-evident.

I am sure that people did not attend in 2012 because of the economy. It is likely that some of these did not attend 2009 either, for the same reason. It is also likely that some people who attended in 2009 were unable to do so in 2012 for economic reasons, however, conversely, it is extremely likely that many were so impacted in 2009 but able to attend in 2012. Clearly, job loss and economic difficulties affect different people at different times. Not too many people stay out of work for 3-4 years (some, yes, but not most).

The point I am trying to make to you is that there is a statistical equivalency here. Unless evidence suggests that MORE people were impacted in 2012 than in 2009, then the economy is not to blame for the decline in attendance. Individual people were almost certainly adversely affected in 2012, but virtually all of the economic news and statistics support 2009 as a more difficult year, and certainly as just as bad as 2012. So the issue is the lack of deterioration between the two periods, not that there are not people unable to attend for economic reasons.

You provide a breakdown and call it your hypothetical, but you just made up a bunch of numbers. There is no evidence to support any of it. You assign an arbitrary 200 to the economy, again insisting in spite of almost every published economic statistic that the economy impacted 2012 more severely than in 2009. I know you want desperately to believe this, but the evidence simply does not support it. Just go back and read some articles on retail spending and the like in 2009. Do you remember the astonishing sales stores were offering? Anything to get people in the door. Things are still difficult, but for most businesses they are not as bad as they were. Unemployment is bad, but it is not as bad as it was in 2009. Statistically speaking, as horrendous as it is now, more people are at work today than in 2009. Unless you have some evidence to suggest our hobby deviates from the societal norm, there is no reason to conclude that the same does not apply to potential Hcon attendees.

You have assigned 200, again arbitrarily to less advertising. We don't even know if there was less spent as of yet. One would think the new location bringing in all these new gamers from the south (this was given as an advantage of the move) would offset some decline in spending, but let's wait until we actually have some final numbers. HMGS's accounting is often squishy, as Pat said. Perhaps if there truly was a significant decline this had an affect. I personally am doubtful that most advertising does much. The specified aggressive Origins campaign that Pat talked about sounds like a well-conceived plan that worked, but I suspect that most Hcon attendees know very well the convention is taking place. Also, between 1998 and 2012, the Internet has become a much more effective means of cheaper promotion.

Your 50 attributed to the aging of the hobby is also without any evidence. People have been talking about this for 20+ years, and yet the hobby has grown. I see no lack of younger gamers. Certainly, there are far more children in attendance than in the earlier years.

As for the blip then decline in the late 90s, I don't pretend to offer any explanations. We can pretty well say the location didn't have anything to do with it since it did not change.

Anyone can offer hypothetical explanations, but we need evidence to support them if we are to seriously consider them. Otherwise I could just say they were abducted by aliens or they went to Vegas with the Easter Bunny and got trashed.

One of the problems of asking for data and proof rather than "anecdotal evidence" is that nobody believes ANYTHING the HMGS puts out any more, and such information as is received is done so only after long hues and cries for it, and when at last it comes out (months later) it's equivocal at best. It may, at this point in time be completely factual, but the burden of the past lays heavily upon it and it is taken with a huge degree of skepticism and cynicism. This is especially true the longer one has to wait for it, which makes the figures seem faked.

Let me give you an example. We have a computerized registration system so it would seem quite possible that at the end of the Day on Sunday we could print out simple raw data on 1.How many days of badge were sold. That means how many days were purchased, a weekend being three days, a day pass one etc. Timely RAW data which would at least have the benefit of the doubt that it could not have been too heavily fudged and at least would be a base-line to start from Yet, apparently we never get attendence figures, or sales, till months later, if at all.

Most of us cannot understand why? We are not dealing with the US Bureacracy? The Board of Directors is a closed society, more or less self-selecting of seven people who should be able to get it out in a day or so after a brief conference call.

So most people unfortunately ARE reduced to the Anecdotal because that's the only information they can get, which comes from a caucus of their friends and people they interact with frequently, and that's all they have. But One cannot dismiss it just because it's anecdotal. It may be gleaned from "their friends" or "people they game with" but that just makes it doubly important to the individual because in the lack of any meaningful (trustworthy) statistics, the word of their friends, that is, NOT perfect strangers) is doubly reliable. At least "their friend" is telling them something and they know their friend and will credit him with more than someone who does not give them information at all.

What do you expect people to do?

I should know better but "computerized registration system" was brought into this…

Someone sold HMGS a crappy partial "open source" convention registration system because it was "cheap" and that's what Origins uses/used.

It's probably the worst system that could have been purchased and used aside from trying to build one using MS Excel. The fact Paul Traini can even get it to work as a basic registration system speaks volumes for his outstanding abilities as an IT Professional. Reporting is a beast to make work on that system. Clearly someone without convention experience selected the product currently in use but we're stuck with it for now.

If anyone thinks they can do better or help Paul get the raw data, contact him or the volunteer coordinator and HELP, if you know Pearl.

You people think the board is closed but how about working to help instead of asking like your "entitled" to get answers to your satisfaction beyond reasonable expectations of volunteers like you own the organization? <-Because none of us own it even if some of us are a part of it.

Why not purchase something better?

Otto:

Well said.

Admiral:

A reasonable explanation about a crappy system. I can't help Paul as I am not an IT guy. So why not buy a better system? If not for a registration system, what is the money for?

I've worked with a lot of BOD members over the years, and con staff. The BOD is somewhat closed to outside help for what they do (not for con staff work). The fact they have become managers of different programs, along in some cases, with conventions, only adds to their work level. I want them to do due oversight and diligence, and communicate what they do to the membership to keep them informed. That is all I require. I can't speak for others.

hg,

I'd set the bar even lower for the BoD. Here's what I ask of them:

1) Don't waste money.

2) Don't make rash and hasty decisions.

3) Listen to the membership.

4) Stop raising prices just to get more money with no purpose in mind.

(Edit) Hey, cool, I got the "Mark of the Beast" for my posting…

I agree, but modify #3 to "inform the membership and listen." If they don't tell us what they are doing and why, how am I to guess? Remember what von Steuben said about needing to tell American troops why you are doing something? Nothing has changed. While some might dicker over their decisions, many may not if you give logical reasons supporting your decisions. Honestly, they have no one to blame but themselves unless they just want my dues and note have to answer for anything.

Otto: completely correct

Admiral:

I don't doubt for a millisecond that what you say is accurate, however, I do not believe that even an utterly byzantine and inferior system does not provide an easily accessible running total on badges sold. They already know the number of pre-reg's before they even get there. If they wanted to be forthcoming, if they even thought that way, they could do it.

Here are some thoughts for the BOD:

1. Stop acting like the politburo. Be open and free with information. You're running a gaming club, not the CIA. Recognize that a lot has happened over the last few years that has destroyed a lot of trust, or at least act like you even understand this.

2. Poll the members when there is a stark choice. Stay at FCC or stay at FCC until the Host is available are two options we have now. Put them to a membership vote and execute the will of the members.

3. Stop raising prices and remember that every price increase chases someone away – attendees and dealers alike. You aren't like a for-profit business. You couldn't run this thing without tons of GMs and other providing you with your product for free. So remember that your purpose is to expand access and promote the hobby, not restrict it to those who can pay more.

You raise an interesting point about the GMs providing the basis of the gaming convention. I wonder what the correllation is between attendance and games run?

I imagine it's pretty high, since the GMs of one game are the players in another game.

Dear Admiral

Regardless of how crappy it is or how great Paul Trani's abilities are, the simple fact is that…

1."The infamous System" was purchased by the Board.

2. One must ask if the Board had any input on the purchase of "The Infamous system," that is, seen it in action, been able to see the reports that it gave. Did they get a demonstration? That is, did they SEE the system or at least SEE data from the system, or at least SEE a bullet list of what it would do? If they did see it then the culpability is all theirs. If they did not see it then why did they make the purchase? So either they did see it and bought it anyway, or did not exercise due-dilligence when the purchase was made, and left it, as they left so many things at that time in the hands of -- someone--

3. If the sole and only criteria was "this was how Origins did it" and that was the whole selling point, then of course it is something else we can charge to "He who must not be blamed." But yet, why do we still have it? Rumor and innuendo said it cost us $10,000. USD Again, I apologize for putting out that figure, I fully admit it is anecdotal, which was told to me by reasonably trustworthy friends who were acquainted with it. Sorry, I have no other information BUT anecdotal.

4. Please excuse and this is in no sense to belittle Paul's efforts but if he can make it work as well as it does, and I have been able to pay my money for admission, get my badge, and get on to the convention despite its horrible nature, then why can't HE produce a routine that will tell us how many days of tickets we have, which would be SOME guage of attendence? It would not seem that difficult, a simple query perhaps, a routine run on the data base? I'm not an IT guy but I work hand in glove with them as a Director of Planning and I'm working on programs all the time with the programmers to get out of the machine the data we want.

5. Finally, if it is so bad, then perhaps it's time to get a new system, or perhaps go back to a strongbox and a printer and a list till we do. We've dumped over $50,000 USD in judgements- what the heck, in for a penny, in for a pound- buy a new system!

6. This returns us to the Bod. So what exactly DOES the system do? Am I to understand that if it does not produce a list of tickets sales in numbers what does it also not do?

Does it produce a total receipts? Tell us how much it takes in each day? Each Historicon? This would seem important as we should have to reconcile cash and checks in the till with the money we should have.

Does it record member attendence? Does it produce a list of who DID show up (after all it takes our names, it takes our address, it takes our money? What does it do with that information?

Does it produce a unified list, a mailing list, or more pertinently does it produce ANY reports, abstracts, downloads, or statements? If not, what exactly DOES it do?

But even at that the issue is not with the system, or with Paul. The remaining and over-riding issue of my post was that it does no good to complain that people work on anecdotal information- that's all we have! If you want us to stop making our judgements on that, then you have to give us something else. Otherwise you're simply saying "Just believe whatever I tell you! regardless of what your eyes and ears tell you and your friends tell you"

That's asking a lot.

One more point.

If the TIS ("The Infamous System")is so bad, does not anyone else see the jarring disconnect between that and the justification that "Origins uses it!"

How can a massive game convention like Origins use it and prosper when we have so much trouble with it? Certainly they would not put up with it if it were "so bad." They do not seem to have problems with it?

Are we to believe that like us, Origins does not know how many people attend their conventions or how many tickets/days they sell?

I criticized the CRS system on the official group and I was asked to be quiet. :-(

Since going to this system there have been more public complaints about player no-shows than under the old system. I think HMGS pays $13 USDk a year to maintain thi system, but that might include other IT software/hardware. It is, in part, why they need to turn large profits at their cons. That and the bookkeeper.

"HMGS pays $13 USD USDk"

They must be smoking up the other $13 USDk.

"I criticized the CRS system on the official group and I was asked to be quiet."

Well, if this doesn't sum up the problems with the way HMGS is run I don't know what does.

Oh, there's always a reason why you're not allowed to publically disagree, and the BOD isn't permitted to publically provide actual data. Notice that?

The only person on the BOD who was for full disclosure was, understandably, asked to leave. How's that for irony!?!?

I had such a miserable time trying to register for Cold Wars that I criticized the system. Other did not, some did. Overall, I think I would rate it very user unfriendly. The fact anyone can make it work – well, they should be given a medal. :-)

I guess they're going back to the days of Panzari – when you couldn't disagree with the board without being tossed off the group. Oh well.

It's really a pathetic commentary on people who behave like that regarding something like HMGS.

Does it produce a unified list, a mailing list, or more pertinently does it produce ANY reports, abstracts, downloads, or statements? If not, what exactly DOES it do?

I found it is very good at holding up registration at the Cons. It's very good at that!

And that is NOT a slight against the hard working volunteers.

"You provide a breakdown and call it your hypothetical, but you just made up a bunch of numbers. There is no evidence to support any of it. You assign an arbitrary 200 to the economy. You have assigned 200, again arbitrarily to less advertising. Your 50 attributed to the aging of the hobby is also without any evidence."

You forgot to mention that I arbitrarily assigned 400 to the move. I realize these are merely made up numbers. That is why I am calling it a hypothetical. You provided a breakdown and more or less called it fact, but you just made up one number.

"If the event hadn't moved I suspect it would be at similar levels to 2009. Origins lost more from the recession, probably because it is not possible to go there as cheaply as Historicon (i.e. it is pretty easy for someone to do a day trip to Hcon if money is tight rather than stay all weekend). Because Hcon lost less, I would expect any rebound to have been smaller as well, so that is why I guess it would be around the same as 2009. This is just my guess, but based on the people I know who didn't go and would have gone to Lancaster, it seems reasonable. But who knows. I try to stick to facts. I blame the move for the drop because it is the only identifiable variable between 2009 and the present."

The facts are that the convention moved from the Host to the VFCC to the FEC. The facts are that within that timeframe the convention lost about 850 attendees. But the cause of this drop in attendance is unknown. Saying that the move is the only cause for the drop in attendance is also rather arbitrary.

You can speculate that the move accounts for the entire drop in attendance or you can speculate that other factors have also contributed. At the end of the day it is all speculation. The difference seems to be that I know I am speculating. I can only imagine you know that you are also speculating but you seem to want others to believe that your speculation is the only possible explanation.

"I criticized the CRS system on the official group and I was asked to be quiet. :-("

That is patently untrue! Jim, I just went through that entire thread on the HMGS group, and I found not one person (ESPECIALLY anybody from the BOD) telling you to be quiet in any way. Every single response to you was helpful and polite and at no time were you asked to not address the situation. Please don't try and get all the BOD haters all up in arms about something that never happened-- this is NOT the BOD and HMGS Forum of the Panzeri days regardless of what you guys seem to think.

I agree the registration system they are using is clunky and needs to be replaced.

Honestly Jerry, it's like you've become my own personal stalker. I am flatter. I think. :-0

Jerry, you have no idea what personal emails I receive, nor what realationship I might have with various board members, so let's just leave it at that. I would never divulge who said what, other than to generalize as I did. So unless you have hacked into my personal email (and then you'd know you were wrong), you may not know what you are talking about – which is the case here.

I don't hate the BOD, and I am not encouraging anyone else to hate them – that is ridiculous. They are doing a thankless job, but sometimes that job gets done better than others.

And yes, the CRS system has needed replacement since the day the bought it.

Just to add to that, but I wish I could find a post on TMP a while ago when someone accused me of being a sock puppet for the board. Kind of torpedo's your post even more. :-)

@ JeremyR

"You can speculate that the move accounts for the entire drop in attendance or you can speculate that other factors have also contributed. At the end of the day it is all speculation. The difference seems to be that I know I am speculating. I can only imagine you know that you are also speculating but you seem to want others to believe that your speculation is the only possible explanation."

Good point well made….

Thank you for your balanced posts…

"Just to add to that, but I wish I could find a post on TMP a while ago when someone accused me of being a sock puppet for the board. Kind of torpedo's your post even more. :-)"

Yeah, one random post on TMP torpedoes an argument. Heh. That's funny. Hilarious, even.

I would imagine the alleged email to you was more of an "Enough, already!" than be quiet. You do have an annoying habit of picking something to bitch about and then squawking on and on and on and… well, you get the picture.

I certainly don't stalk you in any way. Don't flatter yourself. You frequent threads I read both here and on the HMGS Yahoo Group and since you are so often completely off-base (like criticizing the facilities at a con you did not even attend, and yes, I KNOW you "tried") I feel SOMEBODY needs to point it out. The internet has proven over time that if you tell a lie often enough and loud enough there are those who will take it up as truth. See above at the guys that started going on about how horrible the BOD is just because you claimed you were told to be quiet. And since you can't in any way prove it then it just becomes more BS thrown out to stir up trouble for HMGS in general. Keep up the good work.

Wow, I think someone forgot to take their meds today. :-(

Maybe an anger management class would help?

Who's angry? If you can't handle anybody saying you are wrong then you are in the wrong place!

So what a I wrong about?

What about a big hug?

Forgive my jerry-mandering your post – but I am going to use some select quotes from your earlier post:

Nazrat said:

"I certainly don't stalk you in any way."

"…I read both (your posts) here and on the HMGS Yahoo Group and since you are so often completely off-base…"

"I feel SOMEBODY needs to point it out."

"Keep up the good work."

"I certainly don't stalk you in any way."

Riiiight (feeling a bit creeped out). :-0

Nazrat:

I'm still waiting for you to tell us what I am wrong about? You've made an accusation and I'd like to hear what facts you have to back it up?

Please do not contact me via TMP email to taunt me, that is rather childish. Or maybe I just imagined that email too. Thank you.

Nazrat/Jerry:

I asked you once already not to email me via TMP. That is stalking indeed. If you have some facts to bring to the table then do so, otherwise stalk someone else. And yes, I find your obession with me creepy, here and off line. If you don't like what I have to say, hey, here is an idea, don't read it. If you have some facts to bring to the discussion – bring them.

But again, no TMP emails dude, you are creeping me out.

Jerry:

Since you challenged me on getting emails, I thought I'd share yours with everyone:

So you want to fight it out in front of everybody, huh? You're a strange bird, and a immature one at that.

I PMed you, as I said before, to keep this bleep OFF the thread about Historicon. If you can't discuss it like a man and would rather do it out where everybody can see you act like an ass, then so be it.

I will PM you whenever I like, too. Stifle me if you don't want to read what -I- have to say. If it "creeps you out", then that's YOUR problem. I think it's funny that you think this is stalking. 8)=

Yeah, I do think that is stalking.

I welcome an open dialogue and discourse on topics. This is going beyond that.

I have told you I have no wish to converse with you behind the scenes. You seem like an angry person that has become obsessed with me. If I am wrong, then please move on and focus on the topic and not a particular person.

Thank you.

Step away from the keyboard!

Jeremy,

I don't know why I am wasting my time saying this for the thousandth time, but ere goes. I never said the location was the only possible reason. I said it is the only reason for which any supporting evidence of substance has yet been offered. It is also the most plausible reason.

Jeremy,

You have a lot of people saying Lancaster and that they skipped hcon due to distance.