"Historicon Review" Topic

A certain negative criteria might be approximated by comparing attendence at all three shows and seeing if Historicon is an anomaly (in whish case change of venue might truly be more causal, especially with Cold Wars which hasn't.) On the other hand, if it is not an anomaly then it is probably some other factor that is at work.

I suspect that there are other factors at work.

"Apparently the only two statistical points that can be gleaned from the 2008-2012 attendance levels are that the total drop of attendance due to the recession and bad economy is 102 people based on the 2008-2009 numbers and the move from the Host to the VFCC to the FEC has caused 865 people not to attend based on the 2009-2012 numbers. Simple cut and dry facts taking nothing else into account other than the locations. It is truly flawless logic."

Perhaps rather than ridiculing that concept you might suggest a reasonable alternative cause. Please try to do better than Nascar.

"If, as you continue to claim, you have 950 rejectionists start your own convention.

I won't hold my breath."

Crotchety , Crotchety. Crotchety and not very Big Tent of you Bob. Next you will be telling us to "Get off my Lawn" and That we will be poking our eyes out if we run with dice. You really don't seem to hold your breath often.

Otto:

The comparison of Hcon to the other cons is meaningless. They have not moved to two different locations in three years. FI has suffered from holiday weekend syndrome since moving. It is…. the perfect storm. :-)

Much as the economy has been a problem, HMGS conventions have had ups and downs over the years, and there are usually convention related problems which have more influence than the current depression.

The previous record (before 2008) was around 3,600 in 1998. That followed Lord Voldemort circulating tousands of HISTORICON PELs at ORIGINS shortly before HISTORICON. The previous largest increase (absolutely though not relatively) followed saturating ORIGINS 95 with similar propaganda the week before HISTORICON when ORIGINS 95 was held in Philadelphia.

HISTORICON 99 showed about a 30% drop. This may have been due to the bursting of the dot com bubble but I think not. I have no clear idea why the drop occurred. The only half way convincing reason given was by He Whose Name Cannot Be Said. He long maintained that the hordes of ORIGINS gamers who descended on the HOST in 1998 were horrified by the crappy venue, the lack of hot and cold running chamber maids and marble tiles in the HOST, and the lack of opportunitiy to pay to play and thus (in theory) exercise more control over what games they got into. In short, they didn't come back because it didn't look and feel like ORIGINS.

The numbers drifted downward through 2001 when the brochure blizzard championed by Del Stover brought about a steady recovery, which acclearted under Bob Giglio's directorship as he put more and more effort into promotions.

The lack of high priced amenities coupled with the fact that we had a backlog of dealers we could not accommodate led to the "NEXT LEVEL" campaign. To build up a war chest to squander on the NEXT LEVEL the BOD raised dues and admissions a lot, vendor rates a little. Again, since there were more people who wanted vendor space than there was space, but the gaming areas seemed to have lots of space. This showed that the BOD didn't have a clue. However, the economy did take a toll on dealers. We haven't sold out since 2005 at the latest.

As for the other conventions, we moved COLDWARS in 1992 even though there was still room at the Penn Harris. The BOD at the time was not in the habit of providing information to the membership. In fact, little was shared with the BOD between 1991 and 1994 as far as I know. COLDWARS has not moved since, and it has had its ups and downs.

FALL IN! moved to the HOST in 2002 because the Ike/All Star complex was outrageously expensive. Attendance increased and FALL IN! very briefly had significant positive cash flow, in spite of the Cat Show.

FALL IN! 03? That was the "Next Level" from Hell. Attendance went up, but $23,000 USD was lost. And to minimize the FY loss, since we were on a bizarre FY at the time, practically nothing was spent on promotions for FI 94, leading to a sharp attendance drop and a slight positive cash flow.

Based on the 20 June 2012 Financials (hope I'm not giving away top secret information to non members) promotions for HISTORICON 2012 were less than 40% of promotions for HISTORICON 2011.

So the general economy, the celebrated Yankee Temper Tantrum, and the phases of the moon may not be the only reason for a loss of attendance.

Pat Condray

"Yankee Temper Tantrum" OK that needs to go into the general lexicon.

Pat:

Isn't it possible that the actuals for advertising aren't all in yet? Just a thought. Interesting if you think there is such a strong connection between advertising and attendance. Add to that the demise of the printed newsletter and your old AARs, both of which could be handed around. Yeah, I know the electronic one can be forwarded, but I wonder if they are as much as a hard copy?

In regards to that tantrum, isn't it possible some people have a limit on just how far they will drive to any event? I sure hope people never stay home because they are mad at the BOD. BODs come and go like the weather.

Pat:

Isn't it possible that the actuals for advertising aren't all in yet? Just a thought. Interesting if you think there is such a strong connection between advertising and attendance. Add to that the demise of the printed newsletter and your old AARs, both of which could be handed around. Yeah, I know the electronic one can be forwarded, but I wonder if they are as much as a hard copy?

In regards to that tantrum, isn't it possible some people have a limit on just how far they will drive to any event? I sure hope people never stay home because they are mad at the BOD. BODs come and go like the weather.

"Perhaps rather than ridiculing that concept you might suggest a reasonable alternative cause. Please try to do better than Nascar."

Civildisobedience, I agree that the Nascar comparison was bunk but so was the Origins comparison you put forth in response to it. The problem is that any reasonable alternative causes proposed by anyone have been dismissed out of hand by you.

Here's a hypothetical for Historicon 2013. What if the 2013 economy improves and attendance levels rise to 3,000 attendees? Would this prove that the down economy of the last four years has been affecting attendance levels more than you want to believe? Or would the 100 people who have been affected by the economy have returned but the 200 new attendees would only be people from the South as the 865 lost attendees are all from the Northeast and will never go to Historicon as long as it's in Virginia?

I noted this review of the Host posted this week. Seems like the AC issues continue. I sure hope they do not make any efforts to move us back there in the summer until they make sure these issues are resolved. We would never here the end of it about the AC.

"Went to a week long convention here in August 2012. We had reserved a fridge a year ago when making the reservation but the hotel desk told us 'oh well, sorry. We only have 60 fridges to go around for 300 rooms" That could have ruined the week but it was only a bump in the road compared to the lack of AC in 1/2 of the hotel. Some of the meeting rooms were up into the high 80's and completely unbearable. Also the beds are hard as bricks. Save the pain and stay someplace else. "

>will never go to Historicon as long as it's in Virginia?

That's the part that doesn't make any sense. You'd think Longstreet was still guarding the place and the war never ended.

"Civildisobedience, I agree that the Nascar comparison was bunk but so was the Origins comparison you put forth in response to it. The problem is that any reasonable alternative causes proposed by anyone have been dismissed out of hand by you.

Here's a hypothetical for Historicon 2013. What if the 2013 economy improves and attendance levels rise to 3,000 attendees? Would this prove that the down economy of the last four years has been affecting attendance levels more than you want to believe? Or would the 100 people who have been affected by the economy have returned but the 200 new attendees would only be people from the South as the 865 lost attendees are all from the Northeast and will never go to Historicon as long as it's in Virginia?"

I have to disagree on two things.

First, I haven't rejected any reasonable explanation for the drop in attendance. None have been offered beyond repeated insistence that the economy was worse in 2012 than 2009.

Second, I think the Origins comp is a pretty reasonable. Not spot on, of course. Nothing is. But reasonable. And not in the same category as Nascar.

With regard to your scenario, which I do not consider all that unlikely, I see no logical reason to think the Host would not have grown similarly from a higher starting point.

Remember that attendance was growing when the economy turned. In fact, it was the "desperate" need for more space that drove the move to begin with.

"With regard to your scenario, which I do not consider all that unlikely, I see no logical reason to think the Host would not have grown similarly from a higher starting point."

"Would have grown similarly from a higher starting point" in a hypothetical situation? Are you certain that if the convention stayed at the Host attendance would have continued to grow or at least stayed the same between 2009 and 2012? Since you only base your arguments upon facts where are you getting these facts? Are you an inter-dimensional being that has traveled between two alternative realities and is here to tell us that in the other reality Historicon has only grown while staying at the Host?

I think that you'll see the numbers for Historicon decline when the leadership of HMGS decide they "need" to take Historicon to "The next level" – 2008.

Regardless of anyone's opinion, the facts remain. Historicon lost almost 950 people. Saying FCC was a smashing success boggles my mind. It was the least attended Historicon in years.

Wouldn't it be beneficial to focus on how to fix this mess rather than continually going after Civil – who did attend and support Historicon?

"Are you certain that if the convention stayed at the Host attendance would have continued to grow or at least stayed the same between 2009 and 2012? Since you only base your arguments upon facts where are you getting these facts? Are you an inter-dimensional being that has traveled between two alternative realities and is here to tell us that in the other reality Historicon has only grown while staying at the Host?"

Ok, I'm going to say this one more time, and I am really going to try to keep it simple so you can understand.

I'm not certain of anything, and neither is anyone else. Historicon 2012 did not take place in Lancaster. There is no way to know for sure what would have happened. What is known is simple. The last time the event was at the Host, there were more than 850 additional attendees. From 2009 to 2012, the economy has not deteriorated. The weekend (unlike at VFCC) is the same one, making holiday effects and similar factors irrelevant.

No other reasonable hypothesis has been raised to explain the massive decline in attendance, though the FCC shills have raised a number of amusing ideas. At moments I have felt like I'm in a Saturday Night Live skit.

When you move something farther away from most of the people who have attended, and when you do so in an environment of animosity, it should be self-evident that this is the likeliest cause of lower attendance, especially when there is no other explanation.

One doesn't have to be an inter-dimensional being to understand this. One simply has to have a very basic grasp of logic and common sense. Oh yeah, and one has to not be a shill determined to defend a position across the board regardless of facts. Honestly, you can save yourself on some words and just do what my nephew does. Just ask, "why?" to everything I say. Should be a time saver.

And, before you say it, no, I'm not a shill for Lancaster. I have made many comments on FCC, and as many have been positive as negative. In fact, more have been good comments. I have not been unilaterally positive about the Host either. In fact, I am probably on this site at least fifty time using the word "dump" to describe it, though I do find the allegations of body snatchers and deadly mold and plagues to be absurd.

My final conclusions are based on a simple premise. I'd rather go to an event in a venue that is less plush if:

1. It is cheaper, allowing admission costs and vendor costs to be reduced (thus encouraging more attendance and participation).

2. More of my wargaming buddies will go because it is close enough to them or for whatever other reason.

3. It respects the fact that people who have loyally supported something for 20 years and built it into what it is should be shown some respect in choosing venues. No disrespect to VA, but I would feel the same about an event that had been there for 20 years.

This is a hobby where people play in basements as much as anywhere else, yet we have this outraged cry for nicer hotels.

366,

A lot of damage has been done, but I think the way to start fixing things would be:

1. The BOD MUST stop acting like the politburo and start being more transparent. Much trust was lost, and they have done nothing to regain it.

2. Do the poll I suggested. Do you want to stay at FCC indefinitely or book the Host for the first year possible, staying at FCC in the interim? Simple and easy. What possible excuse is there not to do this in an age when the Internet makes it almost free? After the poll, execute the will of the members.

Civil, I completely agree. The million dollar question is how to make it happen. Do you wanna run for the Board?

I thought CD's last longer post was simply brilliant. Well said, sir.

I don't hate the FEC, but I do hate the fact most of my friends won't attend – just as they didn't attend VFCC. Neither of those were political statements by them, they merely reflected the fact the con moved somewhere they didn't want to go – be it date, location, distance, or the color of the paint.

I plan on going to FEC next year – would have this year if traffic had been better. The burden now will be on that facility to make improvements and for more people to attend. If those two things don't happen, then we have a real mess on our hands as it will most likely be too late to return to the Host for the following year, and apparently we can't afford anywhere else.

Here is my list of "reasonable alternative causes" for the drop in Historicon attendance between 2008 and 2012.

1. The move from the Host to the VFCC to the FEC: No one seems to deny that the move away from the Host, or at least how it was handled, is partly to blame for the drop in attendance during the last several years but some would say this is the only possible explanation.

2. Multiple bad economic years: This seems to be affecting numbers but some would argue that a continuing bad economy can't possibly explain any of the drop in attendance between 2009 and 2012 because 2009 was a worse economic year than 2012. However, the 2009 economic circumstances were just the beginning of a bad economy that we Americans have been experiencing since the start of the 2008-2012 Global Recession and I would contend that this continued bad economy is partially responsible for the drop in attendance.

3. Lower advertising numbers: It has been pointed out that there may be a correlation between how Historicon has been advertised over the years and certain rises and drops in attendance. If the number of 40% less advertisement for 2012 is true then this could indeed correspond with lower attendance levels.

4. Video gamers: Some have pointed out that gamers who may have entered into this hobby in the past are instead using video games as their chosen medium in increasing numbers. Some have made the counter-argument that since just as many of these gamers were using this medium in 2009 then this point has no validity. My guess is that video games will continue to take away potential miniature wargamers in the foreseeable future.

5. Aging gaming community: Historical wargaming seems to attract a predominantly older crowd. While there certainly were some younger folks that attended Historicon 2012 the majority of attendees seem to fall into the category of retirement age and older or at least near-retirement age. 2009 was Historicon's 25th anniversary which leads me to believe that 2014 will be the 30th anniversary. I'll bet some of the folks who attended Historicon 2012 have been going since 1984. My guess is that over the years the BOD has allowed science-fiction/fantasy games to be played at the convention to attract younger crowds and thus continue the survival of the convention. There seems to be a general consensus in the gaming community that younger players tend to get into the hobby by playing science-fiction/fantasy games and when they get older some make the conversion to historical wargaming. But if there is no new blood entering the hobby and the gaming crowd continues to grow older then there is no room for growth, only decline.

I would contend that factors such as these and others have combined to drive the attendance down over the last several years. Please feel free to invalidate all of these points in lieu of the one true argument.

"1. The move from the Host to the VFCC to the FEC: No one seems to deny that the move away from the Host, or at least how it was handled, is partly to blame for the drop in attendance during the last several years but some would say this is the only possible explanation."

True, there is bad feeling, but this is only exacerbated by the seeming lack of effort to consider putting things back the way they were. But why such a huge loss after moving from VFCC? It is hard to argue that VFCC wasn't hurt by the move to a weekend abutting July 4. One only has to look at the howls that attended Fall In being held close to Halloween to see that these kinds of things have an impact. FCC got the "normal" weekend back. If not for the location and distance, the why didn't it bounce back, reclaiming those lost to July 4 vacations the previous two years?

"2. Multiple bad economic years: This seems to be affecting numbers but some would argue that a continuing bad economy can't possibly explain any of the drop in attendance between 2009 and 2012 because 2009 was a worse economic year than 2012. However, the 2009 economic circumstances were just the beginning of a bad economy that we Americans have been experiencing since the start of the 2008-2012 Global Recession and I would contend that this continued bad economy is partially responsible for the drop in attendance."

This still boils down to insisting the economy is somehow worse now than then. I understand that you really, really, really want this to be the case, but the facts just don't support this. Let's throw in some anecdotal items too. Do you remember late 2008 and 2009? There was talk of financial system collapse. Major investment banks were failing. Go to your local restaurant and ask them if business is better now than it was in 2009. This dog just won't hunt no matter how many times it is raised.

It is likely that, in a vulnerable economy, some people who would have made short trips or day trips to Lancaster did not do so because of the greater distance. But this is about the location, not differences in economic conditions.

"3. Lower advertising numbers: It has been pointed out that there may be a correlation between how Historicon has been advertised over the years and certain rises and drops in attendance. If the number of 40% less advertisement for 2012 is true then this could indeed correspond with lower attendance levels."

Let's wait and see on this one. I'd wager when we have all the numbers we'll see there was more spent on promotion. However, the meaningful comparison is not this year to last, it is this year to 2009. And when you review 2009 promotional expenses you need to make sure it is money spent promoting Hcon 2009, because HMGS was squandering huge sums pimping Baltimore at that time too.

"4. Video gamers: Some have pointed out that gamers who may have entered into this hobby in the past are instead using video games as their chosen medium in increasing numbers. Some have made the counter-argument that since just as many of these gamers were using this medium in 2009 then this point has no validity. My guess is that video games will continue to take away potential miniature wargamers in the foreseeable future."

Are you seriously suggesting that video games were less of an impact in 2009? Seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. Why don't you just say aliens blasted people with a mind ray in 2012 and call it a day.

"5. Aging gaming community: Historical wargaming seems to attract a predominantly older crowd. While there certainly were some younger folks that attended Historicon 2012 the majority of attendees seem to fall into the category of retirement age and older or at least near-retirement age. 2009 was Historicon's 25th anniversary which leads me to believe that 2014 will be the 30th anniversary. I'll bet some of the folks who attended Historicon 2012 have been going since 1984. My guess is that over the years the BOD has allowed science-fiction/fantasy games to be played at the convention to attract younger crowds and thus continue the survival of the convention. There seems to be a general consensus in the gaming community that younger players tend to get into the hobby by playing science-fiction/fantasy games and when they get older some make the conversion to historical wargaming. But if there is no new blood entering the hobby and the gaming crowd continues to grow older then there is no room for growth, only decline."

This is the whole "graying of the hobby" argument, which has been going strong since I arrived on the scene in 1989. No numbers are ever given or evidence ever provided. Just the worry that the "kids" all want to play videogames and that minis will wither and die. For more than 20 years I have heard this while our conventions got bigger and the availability of wargaming stuff has exploded.

FYI, there were tons of SF&F games at Hcon 2009, so the younger gamers you are looking for should have been their in at least the numbers they were in 2009.

Or have we reach a demographic tipping point, and those missing 850 are all in nursing homes or pushing up daisies?

1. why didn't it bounce back, reclaiming those lost to July 4 vacations the previous two years?
there's going to a group that didn't go for two years and realized they didn't miss it. They had more fun with their family at the beach than being at the convention.
2. two items here. Being out of work 6 months you might go to a convention, but 18 or 30 months? Two, older workers out the door (our hobby is old) are not the first back in the door.

I was fascinated with the comparison of available space posted a while back. So much so that I have copied it as a word document. However, I remain skeptical of the HOST parking, though I'm not sure that at the FEC is sufficient for much growth-I had more trouble finding parking than some have reported. And I did land in the little spill over lot at what I think was the NNE corner of the main parking lot a couple of times.

As for advertising, I reported the ratio that I remembered, which was not based on looking at the financial reports. But I will correct that here.

In 2009, the last HISTORICON held on the Sacred Soil of The Host, the year end report showed that $18,707 USD had been spend on advertising compared to $18,500 USD budgeted.

As of June 30 of this year, $6,601 USD had been spent on advertising against $15,000 USD budgeted.

That may change when the 31 July 2012 report is posted. But on the face of it, any money spent on advertising between the end of June and the 19th of July was almost certainly wasted. It is possible that some espenditure had not been reported by the end of June, but that seems unlikely.

In short, to promote a new site we spent not 40% but slightly less than 36%.

I know it is a strange idea, but I actually believe that attendance is stimulated by promotions. They can be done better or worse for the money, but they can't be done without money.

Part of the problem might be that HMGS Inc (EAST) has not targeted the south as much as the mid-Atlantic in the past, and more effort is needed. But in any case, I am convinced that under advertising did not have a positive effect on attendance. It rarely does.

Pat Condray

"Or have we reach a demographic tipping point, and those missing 850 are all in nursing homes or pushing up daisies?"

Now Now you are giving Mr. Coggins a mental image that has the same effect on him that the image of Phoebe Cates climbing out of the pool in Fast Times at Ridgemont High had on Judge Reinhold.

"This still boils down to insisting the economy is somehow worse now than then. I understand that you really, really, really want this to be the case, but the facts just don't support this."

I feel as if you are still completely missing my point. I agree that thus far 2012 has been a marginally better economic year compared to 2009. My point isn't that one specific bad economic year has hurt attendance levels. My point is that four consecutive bad economic years have combined to hurt attendance levels.

"Let's wait and see on this one. I'd wager when we have all the numbers we'll see there was more spent on promotion. However, the meaningful comparison is not this year to last, it is this year to 2009. And when you review 2009 promotional expenses you need to make sure it is money spent promoting Hcon 2009, because HMGS was squandering huge sums pimping Baltimore at that time too."

I'll refer you to Pat Condray's statement in regards to this point.

"Are you seriously suggesting that video games were less of an impact in 2009? Seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. Why don't you just say aliens blasted people with a mind ray in 2012 and call it a day."

I was not the one who initially suggested the video game comparison but I added it to the list as it seems to be a concern in the wargaming community. My guess is that there are probably more video gamers in 2012 than 2009. This industry continues to grow year after year and the average age of the video gamer continues to grow older from year to year. The average age of video gamers is 34. It seems that most historical wargamers enter the hobby during middle age but if that age group is turning to video games more often then this could indirectly lead to a decline in historical wargamers. While this is unlikely to have a marked effect from year to year, longer-term trends of five or ten years might bear this out.

"This is the whole "graying of the hobby" argument, which has been going strong since I arrived on the scene in 1989. No numbers are ever given or evidence ever provided. Just the worry that the "kids" all want to play videogames and that minis will wither and die. For more than 20 years I have heard this while our conventions got bigger and the availability of wargaming stuff has exploded. FYI, there were tons of SF&F games at Hcon 2009, so the younger gamers you are looking for should have been their in at least the numbers they were in 2009."

I realize there were tons of SF&F games. I played in several of them as well as several historical games. I don't know the entire history of Historicon but my guess is that it started as a purely historical gaming convention and added SF&F games over time to ensure the survival of the convention. My point is that some of the growth experienced by Historicon over the years may be attributed to allowing more SF&F games to attract a younger crowd who may become the historical wargamers of the future.

Pat Condray says the previous Historicon attendance record before 2008 was 3,600 in 1998. So ten years later, after a drop in attendance while the convention was at the Host, the convention had grown once more to 3,667 people. In 1998 the U.S. population was 270 million and in 2008 the population was a little over 300 million. So while the amount of people that attended may have been the same as 1998, the percentage of the population that attended was smaller. If Historicon's growth had kept up with U.S. population growth over the ten year period between 1998 and 2008 then Historicon 2008 attendance numbers would have been 4,000. While this is only one statistical point it could lead one to believe that even though the number of wargamers remains relatively stable, and may even grow slightly at times, they represent an increasingly smaller percentage of the population from year to year.

So if wargamers truly do tend to be represented by older generations and younger generations become video gamers in increasing numbers instead of becoming wargamers then yes, the hobby is likely in a slow state of decline.

"but my guess is that it started as a purely historical gaming convention and added SF&F games over time to ensure the survival of the convention."

No that is not the case. While HMGS was founded to promote historical miniatures, there has never been any restriction or limitation on non-historical games.

"My point is that some of the growth experienced by Historicon over the years may be attributed to allowing more SF&F games to attract a younger crowd who may become the historical wargamers of the future."

If that were true then attendance would be growing proportionally to the number of non-historical games – which has not been the case. The truth is that many gamers do non-historical games. Hopefully with counseling and medication they can be cured of this habit. :-)

"The truth is that many gamers do non-historical games. Hopefully with counseling and medication they can be cured of this habit. :-)"

;) Remember when the only Sci-Fi game at H-con was Princess Ryan's Space Marines? I believe it was allways held on Sunday too.

No, they did it in the evening, as they set up beside me once or twice.

Remember the Jenkintown Hobby setups? Not quite fantasy, but they were beautiful

FYI, for FCC shills blaming video games, google video game sales. Down in 2010, down in 2011, down so far every month in 2012. Nice try, though.

Yeah, those games were huge. The hobby shop is long gone too. :-( Times they are a changing.

What year did they do the French Rev set up with the huge 28mm Palace at Versailles. The players that played the revolutionaries were given red stocking hats to wear.

Marvin,

The French Revolution game was created and run (and built/paid for) by Todd Fisher from Chicago, not Jenkintown Hobby.

Regards,
Bob Giglio

Civil said:

"And when you review 2009 promotional expenses you need to make sure it is money spent promoting Hcon 2009, because HMGS was squandering huge sums pimping Baltimore at that time too."

---

Any money that was spent on the promotions for (as I like to call it) the "Lost Weekend" of HISTORICON in Baltimore in 2010, was removed from the HISTORICON 2009 budget and placed in a separate line item in the Chapter budget for that Fiscal Year.

Therefore, anything you see in the Advertising section of the HISTORICON 2009 budget was spent exactly on that. I made sure this was done, so as not to "hide things" or "confuse things" or such, since the then President was putting things into every CD's budget (i.e., Prez for Cold Wars and Andy Turlington's for FI) which was not related to that show and was unbeknownest to the CD (but moved out once they found out, as all the CD's admitted happened; Andy noted it here on TMP even).

With regard to Advertising for this HISTORICON, what is probably missing at present is the cost of the brochures (printing and mailing) as they were not mailed out until June, so that bill might not have been paid until July. Just a thought. So, yes that line item should increase a bit.

Regards,
Bob Giglio

I think your all wasting your time. Some of these people will still want the host when its a whole in the ground. Which could be before 2014. It would be better to start looking at places for Fall-In and Cold Wars. I NOT saying move them, but someone better start doing some contingency planning.

The Jenkintown games were big pirate things. Amazing.

Thanks, Bob. Yes, just to clarify, notwithstanding my barb at the Baltimore thing, I don't think it is odd that full expenses wouldn't be compiled yet. It's just that we can't consider marketing costs until the numbers are final.

Also, for the record, I thought Hcon 2009 was an awesome convention. One of the best of all I went to, and they were all pretty darn good. It felt ironic because the weekend was so awesome it was hard to reconcile with why they were messing with it.

thomalley,

And other than a backhanded whine about the Host, what possible reason is there to fear its imminent demise. I know Bob Coggins has repeatedly fretted about imminent bankruptcy, which would be iroic since we can't seem to get back into the place due to multi-year bookings.

The Host is an old run-down hotel, but I'd wager it is solider than half the houses of the Host whiners.

A down and dirty count revealed the following mostly negative posts by the following:

civildisobedience 99 posts
historygamer 61 posts
Long Island Gamer 28 posts

That's 14.4 negative posts per page by 3 members and if I went back over their posts on other convention topics the results would most likely be the same.

Not that I'm without sin. I had too many posts in response when I should have ignored their mostly unsupported claims and unsatisfiable desires.

Conventions are to enjoy. Fredricksburg, regardless of it's minor problems, appears to have overall been an enjoyable event, certainly the dealers seem satisfided too.

Some enjoy making others miserable by attempting to convince them that the event wasn't successful while claiming they have the answer to a problem which doesn't exist.

Bob Coggins

"Some enjoy making others miserable by attempting to convince them that the event wasn't successful while claiming they have the answer to a problem which doesn't exist."
Based on this Bob can the same thing have been said about why the con was moved from the Host. That it was based on a problem that didn't exist?

Bob,

I realize it is easier to hit things with your broad brush and characterize posts as "mostly negative," but do you have have the desire to be accurate? Maybe just to see what it feels like?

My first post that opened the thread is a review that lists both positive and negative points. That's what a review does, Bob, unless something is utterly perfect or the reviewer is really just a shill offering nothing but baseless platitudes. You will note that my comments about the Host have been equally mixed. It's called honest debate.

As to "unsupported claims," most of my issues revolve around the sever drop in attendance. Just to explain, Bob, so you understand…that is a fact, not an unsupported claim. The numbers aren't mine; they are HMGS's. The rest of the arguments along that line have been about potential causes. Again, if you read the posts instead of just writing them off as "mostly negative," you will see that there are many statistics and facts quoted. Economic stats, attendance trends at other gaming cons, video game sales, etc. You may disagree with the conclusions, but calling any claims "unsupported" is grossly inaccurate.

As far as conventions are to enjoy, who disagreed with you on that? In fact, I posted repeatedly that I had a good time, though not as good as I did at previous events. I missed a lot of familiar faces and the constant game cancellations were a drag. But it was a good time. I've said this again and again.

Who is trying to make anyone miserable on a message board you don't need to read or post on? How is it possible that this interferes with anyone's enjoyment of the convention? Does it eat at you so intensely just knowing there are people on a message board who don't agree with your often erratic posts?

Disco Joe is right, of course. The move from the Host was attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Two thoughts, Bob, regarding your recent rambling.

1. You say that there is no problem that exists. I say that losing 850 of our friends, fellow gamers, and long time loyal attendees IS a problem, and one that should not be so lightly brushed off.

2. You use the phrase, "unsatisfiable desires." Well I've posted twice now the suggestion that HMGS poll the members asking if they want to stay at FCC long term or stay until the Host is available and go back to Lancaster. Simple, easy, cheap, democratic. None of the shills have responded to that, which I find interesting. If you are not willing to see the membership decide this issue then you need to explore your motives. But I'd hardly call polling the membership to be an "unsatisfiable desire."

Bob:

You are too funny. :-)

Speaking of which, did you go to Historicon this year?

CD
I dealt with disaster recovery for the federal government and had to deal with the same arrogant attitude.
The host may never go away, but a tornado may level it tomorrow and there goes this years Fall-In. The move of Historicon has shown there are very few option.
But unless maybe your happy with the possibility of all three conventions being in Fredericksburg. You should help find the alternatives. Lancaster Convention Center could work, only problem I've heard there is parking.

thommalley: "Lancaster Convention Center could work, only problem I've heard there is parking."

I was really hoping the downtown Lancaster Convention Center would have become an option, but alas it does not really meet our "normal format". I understand the facility is struggling. Alot of this has to do with parking (as you stated), one attached hotel (I think it has 300 rooms and is a higher priced Marriott), essentially no other nearby hotels without driving quite a distance, and a lack of well staffed local restaurants (I doubt the usual staffing of the restaurants can handle the influx of folks from a show and would no doubt be a challenge).

Like I said, this is unfortunate. We will find ourselves with fewer affordable locations going forward as our organization and shows have needs that are different to most users of these types of facilities. If we continue to try and be a big tent and accomodate every type of game/gamer and associated stuff, then we will have fewer options. There is always a future option of reducing the footprint we need to operate in which I am sure will not be popular with everyone. There are pros and cons to every decision……

BTC:

Well said. Oh geez, I hope that comment doesn't go into Bob's negative column, but I do agree with you. That should be a positive. :-)

As Bob Giglio noted, many charges were moved from individual convention accounts to other chapter accounts between the July 2009 reports and the December (year end) 2009 reports. So I used the latter.

I look forward to seeing the advertising expenses as of the end of July. But while last minute promotions (e.g. HISTORICON 95 and 98) sometimes pay off, June is a little late for mailings-even first class. Though express or priority to ORIGINS might accomplish something.

"The host may never go away, but a tornado may level it tomorrow and there goes this years Fall-In."
thomalley,didn't Fredericksburg have a hurrican or tornado or some disaster like that this year so if that happens and the FCC gets destroyed there goes Historicon for next year.

DJ
Exactly, though I don't think you were trying to reinforce my point.
Looking at the search for placing Historicon this year it is obvious that our options are limited and we should be preparing.

"CD
I dealt with disaster recovery for the federal government and had to deal with the same arrogant attitude.
The host may never go away, but a tornado may level it tomorrow and there goes this years Fall-In. The move of Historicon has shown there are very few option.
But unless maybe your happy with the possibility of all three conventions being in Fredericksburg. You should help find the alternatives. Lancaster Convention Center could work, only problem I've heard there is parking."

I am not arrogant about disaster possibilities. But I do feel that this is a very small probability incident and not a good reason to argue for an alternative facility. I have several reasons for this:

1. The chance of it happening is extremely small. In 20 years we've had a big ice storm and two power failures, but nothing that wiped out the convention. The Host has to be 60+ years old, and has never been destroyed by a natural disaster. Could it happen? Of course. Is it really likely enough to plan for? I don't think so.

2. In the extremely unlikely event that a tornado (for example) leveled the Host, apart from the fact that this would be a human tragedy, we have to keep our gaming conventions in perspective. They are not hospitials, they are not Norad, they are not air traffic control facilities. In the very unlikely event that a natural disaster destroyed the facility AND HMGS was unable to arrange alternate facilities in time, then a convention (or even two) would be cancelled. That would be disappointing, but far from an epic disaster. Frankly, if HMGS took itself a little less seriously I think it would benefit them. There's been too much (to use your word) arrogance around HMGS for some years now.

Ok CD, put your head in the sand and enjoy Fall In 2015 and Cold Wars 2016 in Virginia Beach.