"Historicon Review" Topic

Historygamer wrote: "To be factual, HMGS can only grow a limited amount at the FEC given its square footage as compared to the Host, and its other limitations (parking, bathrooms, noise). I just want to be sure we are framing this discussion by the fact that FEC is only good enough now because of the attendance lost the past three years (including the last one at FEC)."

This comment led me to do a comparison between the FEC and the Host that details convention space, parking, bathroom facilities and hotel rooms. All of the information for the FEC is available on their website. Some of the information for the Host is available on their website but I had to call the facility to determine the rest of the info. After asking a few questions about how many rooms, parking spaces and bathrooms the facility has the woman I talked to asked me what group I was with. I responded that I wasn't with a group and was doing a comparison of various facilities. After telling her this she would give me no more information so the bathroom comparison for the Host is incomplete.

FEC convention space: Exhibit Hall A = 45,000 sq ft; Exhibit Hall B = 35,000 sq ft; Ballrooms A, B, C, D, E, and F = 1,665 sq ft each; Meeting Room 1 = 450 sq ft; Meeting Room 2 = 435 sq ft; Meeting Room 3 = 360 sq ft; Meeting Room 4 = 320 sq ft; Meeting Room 5 = 380 sq ft. The FEC has a total convention space of 91,935 sq ft.

The Host convention space: Marietta = 2,448 sq ft; Strasburg = 480 sq ft; Limerock = 648 sq ft; New Holland = 728 sq ft; Kinderhook = 690 sq ft; Cornwall = 680 sq ft; Paradise = 2,295 sq ft; Hopewell = 1,376 sq ft; Ballroom A = 3,888 sq ft; Ballroom B = 4,914 sq ft;
Grand Ballroom = 9,288 sq ft; Heritage A = 1,122 sq ft; Heritage B = 1,122 sq ft;
Heritage Room = 2,244 sq ft; Heritage Board Room = 255 sq ft; Showroom = 13,000 sq ft; Conestoga 1 = 1,505 sq ft; Conestoga 2 = 980 sq ft; Conestoga 3 = 980 sq ft; Lampeter Exhibit Hall = 17,500 sq ft; Expo Center = 23,540 sq ft; Wheatland State Room = 3,984 sq ft; Laurel Grove Boardroom = 352 sq ft; Vistas C = 745 sq ft; Vistas D = 1,152 sq ft; Vistas Windows = 3,009 sq ft; Host A = 801 sq ft; Host B = 801 sq ft. The Host has a total convention space of 100,527 sq ft.

This comparison shows that the Host has 9% more convention space than the FEC. The Host's space is divided into 28 rooms spread across multiple buildings while the FEC's space is in one building and divided into 8-13 rooms depending on how the ballroom is set up.

FEC parking spaces: 1,200 on-site parking spaces (all paved).

The Host parking spaces: 1,000 on-site parking spaces (paved and grass).

The FEC has 20% more parking than the Host and all of it is paved while some of the Host's parking is grass areas.

FEC bathroom facilities: Lobby Men's Room = 2 stalls, 2 urinals; Lobby Women's Room = 4 stalls; Exhibit Hall A Men's Room = 3 stalls, 4 urinals; Exhibit Hall A Women's Room = 11 stalls; Exhibit Hall B Men's Room = 3 stalls, 4 urinals; Exhibit Hall B Women's Room = 11 stalls. The FEC has a total of 8 stalls and 10 urinals in the men's rooms, and 26 stalls in the women's rooms.

The Host bathroom facilities: I was told that the Host has one set of restrooms in the Expo Center and several sets of restrooms in the main hotel area. Unfortunately the woman I talked to did not give me an actual total. The online map for the Meeting Facilities, which includes the Marietta, Strasburg, Limerock, New Holland, Kinderhook, Cornwall, Paradise, Hopewell, Ballroom A, and Ballroom B rooms, shows a men's room with four stalls and six urinals and a women's room with eight stalls. Perhaps someone can give better information on the Host's restrooms.

The bathroom comparison is incomplete. From reading earlier posts I understand that the Host has used a women's restroom as a men's room in the past. Considering that two of the women's rooms in the FEC have eleven stalls each, using one of these as a men's room and keeping the restrooms in Exhibit Hall B open to the public at all times would probably alleviate the bathroom problems at the FEC.

FEC hotel rooms: Hilton Garden Inn = 148 rooms; Homewood Suites = 122 rooms; Hampton Inn = 151 rooms. There are a total of 421 rooms in the FEC adjacent hotels. The website states that when the fourth hotel is completed there will be over 600 rooms but that hotel, a Hyatt Place, was supposed to open in 2009. The map shows the Hyatt Place's location to be about where the Wegmans is so my guess is that this hotel has since been scrapped.

The Host hotel rooms: The website states the hotel has 319 rooms but I was told over the phone that the number is 309. There are also several other hotels close by the Host.

The three hotels surrounding the FEC have more rooms than the Host but counting the other hotels near the Host may bring the total to more than the FEC hotels. At either location the majority of attendees will have to stay several miles from the convention centers.

You should run for the board. :-)

Thanks for the facts, but you'll find they have no place here. :-)

The truth is that between what we can afford, and the space we require, HMGS' options are somewhere between slim and none.

I did find your details on the FEC bathrooms interesting, especially since someone told me I didn't know what I was talking about:

"The FEC has a total of 8 stalls and 10 urinals in the men's rooms, and 26 stalls in the women's rooms."

Aside from the fact that our conventions are much more heavily attended by men, that means each toilet/urinal has about 150 men using them. Allowing that most people will use them more than once…. well, that is a lot of… use.

No wonder they were messy. One of the differences is that with connected hotel rooms such as at the Host or VFCC, many people probably go back to their rooms to go. Can't do that at FEC. You have to use what is on site. Having run many public events myself, the rule of thumb for port-o-potties is one john for every 50 people. Obviously flush toilets change that equation, but I am not sure three times as much.

One "fix" for this might be to convert/re-label some of the women's rooms to "MEN" for the weekend. Some of the ladies may need to walk a bit further, but given their small numbers, and the fact any other fix would cost more money – well, this is a cheap and easy fix.

Okay, that's my contribution for the FEC for tonight. You can thank me later. :-)

"Oh my god, will you guys give it a rest trying to say the numbers aren't the numbers and 2+2 doesn't equal 4?"

You say nobody reads what you say-- I will throw that back to you. Where in hell did I say anything about doubting the numbers? I actually said we probably WON'T reach those much lauded numbers, and I put quotations around "High Point at the Host" because that phrase has been trotted out so damn much. READ what I wrote. It's a pretty fair reply to Historygamer (Jim McG).

But if you want to rail on about people disagreeing with you (when they aren't), the facts, and the "facts" as you see them, then go right ahead. Until that diatribe I thought you were one of the most reasonable ones here…

JeremyR:

Thank you for a very thoughtfull and well-researched survey of the Host and FEC venues. Based on your survey, the FEC can match or exceed the Host in every category listed. However, we should also consider the following:

1) The FEC is a new facility.

2) The FEC has better maintenance.

3) The FEC will not be sold to developers.

4) It will never be turned into a casino.

I think the BOD did a great job of putting Historicon 2012 together and am confident 2013 will be even better. Based on all that I have read in the local newspapers, the City of Fredericksburg is really glad to have us and the staff of the FEC will address our concerns for improvement.

As Ratisbon has reported, the deterioration of the Host has continued unabated. I can't understand why anyone would want to go back there when the FEC offers more long-term potential.

The Host will suffice for Cold Wars and Fall-In, but I wouldn't want to spend another weekend in the tennis barn in the Summer.

If Civil, LIG and the others who are concerned about windshield time can offer a venue that meets the Society's needs, please share it with us. But in the absence of a viable alternative, I think the FEC is a winner and look forward to many more Historicons there. I'm going to start booking my 2013 reservations this weekend.

Look, size-wise the two venues are very comparable. Calculating exact square footage and counting urinals is not, in my opinion, necessary or productive.

" At either location the majority of attendees will have to stay several miles from the convention centers."

This, however, is incorrect. The Host is literally surrounded with motels, while at FCC they are some distance away. I will grant that the average hotel at FCC is nicer, however, but they are definitely farther from the venue than in Lancaster.

"As Ratisbon has reported, the deterioration of the Host has continued unabated. I can't understand why anyone would want to go back there when the FEC offers more long-term potential."

Because it's in a better location.

Well, seeing as there's a lot of focus on numbers, let's begin there. I understand that the working total attendance at the FEC for 2012 was 2,700, and that this figure is not disputed to any significant extent.

2012 – 2,700 – FEC, VA
2011 – 2,958 – VFCC, PA
2010 – 2,980 – VFCC, PA
2009 – 3,565 – Host, PA
2008 – 3,667 – Host, PA
2007 – 3,272 – Host, PA

A number of things are pretty obvious from looking at those numbers.

Certain people won't like this, so let's get it out of the way. First and foremost, Historicon suffered the biggest drop in numbers while still located in PA – a loss of 585 attendees. That coincided with the first move Historicon had made away from Lancaster in several years, and we all know that was largely down to the whole Baltimore Incident and the change in date. That's not a dig at anybody's take on numbers so far, but it's not really something that should be ignored either.

King of Prussia is about 55 miles east of Lancaster, and I've been here long enough to know that 55 miles is not a significant distance to most Americans. Now, I'm not saying that it's a jaunty little spin down to the local 7-11 either. But I think most Noth Americans would agree that it's not exactly a massive distance to travel to get to somewhere you really, really want to be. King of Prussia is about as far north (if you're coming from the south) as Lancaster, and the same principle applies if you're coming from the north.

So, seeing as the convention was staying in PA, and there's little or no bloody difference in terms of driving distance in the grand scheme of things, why did Historicon lose the guts of 600 attendees between 2008 and 2009? The VFCC location was not announced until relatively late in the game, and I'm sure that had a significant impact on people making travel plans and trying to get time off work. The proximity to a holiday weekend certainly didn't help either. It's one thing to try to ensure that you''l be free on any given date. It's another thing entirely to know that you'll effectively be turning around and trying to sort out more time away from work within days of already being out for a long weekend.

I was living in the US in 2010, and employed. Just like everybody else that summer, if you had a job, you were being bloody careful to keep it. Chances are you were being asked to do the work of somebody besides yourself, because that's just how things were at the time. You were watching your money, paying down debt (if you had debt) and doing your level best to ensure that your nearest and dearest were looked after.

Anyway, I'd venture to say that's where a good many of your 585 no-shows that year came from, and I don't think i's really much of a stretch to say that that's how things were the year after, bringing us up to about 600 missing when the VFCC shut it's doors on Historicon.

For the record, it was the change in date that made me miss both Historicons at the VFCC. You could have put the thing on in my back yard in 2010 and 2011, but if it was on the same date, I couldn't have attended. As to Lancaster, I arrived in the US about a fortnight before Historicon 2008, and went to my first American convention. I liked it so much that I went back the next year, and worked at the Flea Market.

Now, by the time Historicon 2012 came around, with all the regionalism, factionalism, bad blood, good vibes, renditions of "Dixie" and retaliatory renditions of "Battle Hymn of the Republic" and all the rest of it, you had 600 people who had basically had two years in which to get used to the idea of Not Going To Historicon.

Hardly a stretch to say that if you've banked what you've not spent on what is really a luxury, or put it towards the mortgage, or the kids' college fund, that you might begin to think that going to Historicon 2012 might not make a huge amount of financial sense. Or perhaps Household Six made that particular decision for you.

Historicon 2011 saw a negligible drop in bodies through the doors from 2010. Why? Because the thing stayed put. Dates and so on mightn't have suited folks, but at least they knew where and when they were going the next year. No matter where Historicon is held, people are going to attend it. The trouble is, if you bang the thing around from place to place every two years, you're always going to have those who'll hesitate and think 'Well, I'll wait and see how they get on in the new place, and make a decision based on that'. Historicon 2012 was in a new location, and in a new state, so that obviously had the knock on impact that we have already seen following the move from Lancaster.

The key issue here since 2009 is that we now have significant number of people who have become accustomed to not going to Historicon. What the convention needs now is stability, and certainty about the location over the next couple of years. Any move – no matter where – is going to have a damaging effect, because it'll be Yet Another Move, and that's something that's not going to help the situation.

There is certainly a case to be made for the Host as a geographical location. The unhelpful rhetoric of some (on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line, I might add) aside, I can see where many people from up north are coming from. There is certainly a strong case to be made for holding the thing a bit further north, and I would be the first to say that moving it any further south would be a bad thing, for obvious reasons.

As I understand it, it's back at the FCC in 2013. How about we focus in stabilizing the patient before we launch into another drastic surgical procedure in 2014? At the end of the day, this is something we all love, so how about pulling together to heal it as opposed to tearing it asunder to the point where it simply disappears?

There are other points I want to raise, but I think this is enough for the time being.

How about we focus in stabilizing the patient before we launch into another drastic surgical procedure in 2014? At the end of the day, this is something we all love, so how about pulling together to heal it as opposed to tearing it asunder to the point where it simply disappears?

12 pages. 500 posts. Best comment.

Actually, Mericanach brings up a very good point:

"Historicon suffered the biggest drop in numbers while still located in PA – a loss of 585 attendees"

I might add that the move from King of Prussia to Fredericksburg only resulted in a loss of 258, or less than 10% from last year. That loss was anticipated, because the common wisdom assumes that you always lose people the first year you move a convention. We'll get those people back next year and add even more when the word gets out that the FEC is a great place to hold a convention.

Historicon 2012 was a big fat SUCCESS. I can't wait for Historicon 2013.

"I might add that the move from King of Prussia to Fredericksburg only resulted in a loss of 258, or less than 10% from last year. That loss was anticipated, because the common wisdom assumes that you always lose people the first year you move a convention. We'll get those people back next year and add even more when the word gets out that the FEC is a great place to hold a convention."

Three problems with that logic.

1. The date change was significant. Mericanach noted that it was the date that kept him from VFCC. Considering the howling that has accompanied Fall-In abutting Halloween for a couple years, I would say that this was a considerable factor, though I admit I can think of no way to adequately measure it.

2. This notion that you are expected to lose attendance with a move, as if it were some wisdom handed down from on high, is not backed up by any evidence. My understanding is the move from the Penn Harris to the Host did not lose anyone, for example. Did moving Fall In from Gettysburg? I don't have attendance figures for that.

3. FCC was working off of an already seriously depressed figure. Getting the normal weekend slot back and still losing 10% off of already very low numbers is troubling.

I suspect next year will be similar to this year, possibly with some growth if the economy is any better.

Curious – when is a 10% drop in attendance a big, fat success?

3. FCC was working off of an already seriously depressed figure. Getting the normal weekend slot back and still losing 10% off of already very low numbers is troubling.

Historicon's had two moves in three years. The total loss in attendance at the convention after those moves is 865, or 24.26%. 585 of those people were lost ever before the convention moved out of PA. If one really wanted to drive home a point, one could bring the 2008 high into it and highlight the fact that the convention had lost 709 attendees while still in PA.

Now, having regard to the overall effect of two moves in such a short space of time, ask yourself – is a third move in the space of five years really in Historicon's best interest? I'm not talking about the BOD here – I'm talking about the gathering we all go to, or want to go to, once every year.

You want to get Historicon back on track? Stop the bleeding. Stabilize it in place, and buy yourself some time.

Historicon no more belongs to VA than it does to PA. But for right now, and for next year at least, it's in Fredericksburg. That's the reality of the situation.

So quit the bickering and all the rest of it, lads. I'd much rather talk about how we fix the thing than be mourning the fact that there's no Historicon to go to in 2015.

"I suspect next year will be similar to this year, possibly with some growth if the economy is any better."

Civildisobedience, this statement confuses me. It would seem to contradict a large part of your argument. You have continuously stated that the move away from the Host is the only reason for the drop in attendance or at least that a bad economy cannot explain any of the drop in attendance for 2012 because 2009 was a worse economic year with a higher attendance. Yet a statement such as this implies that a bad economy has indeed affected attendance and if the economy improves between now and July 2013 then attendance levels will rise despite the convention staying in Virginia. Are we now to believe that an improving economy can grow the convention but a bad economy doesn't hurt attendance. I suspect the next argument to disprove this point will be that the thousand lost attendees will never go to Historicon in Virginia and any growth will be new people who have never attended the convention at the Host.

I am curious. Does anyone know where I can find the attendace numbers for Fall In and Cold Wars for the past few years? Was Historicon the only convention to have a drop? I will miss Historicon at the Host because I love Lancaster. However I enjoyed Fredericksburg, not because of its proximity (30 miles away), but rather that it was a pretty good show overall.

You might find the attendance numbers in the minutes. You can also see the actuals in the yahoo financial files section.

My friends quit attending because they didn't like the drive to VFCC as well as Lancaster, and felt the same way about Fredericksburg. It doesn't matter whether their perceptions are right or not, it is how they felt. That is not going to change. For the record, I went to both Hcons at VFCC and would have gone to FEC if the traffic hadn't come to a dead stop on I95.

"Curious – when is a 10% drop in attendance a big, fat success?"

Curious-- could you show me ANYWHERE where somebody has said that? It has been stated that the con expects to be in the black, and it seems a lot of folks enjoyed it, which certainly falls under the blanket as a successful event. But I haven't seen anybody touting it as a huge success.

Or is this just argument for argument's sake?

@nazrat;

7 posts above yours and 2 posts above the question you seem to have an issue with:

Tumbleweed 08 Aug 2012 8:13 p.m. PST

Historicon 2012 was a big fat SUCCESS. I can't wait for Historicon 2013.

There are other roads to Fredricksburg, insisting on riding I-95, a known traffic nightmare, seems kinda silly.

Okee doke. Yeah, that was some hyperbole about the success of the con. I stand corrected.

Jeremy,

If you read the entirety of my posts you would see that I said the move was the only factor different between the 2012 and 2009 conventions. Both of these took place during troubled economic times, and while a case can be made that 2009 was worse, I am looking at this as a wash.

Thus, if 2013 does prove to be a stronger year economically, it would not surprise me if FCC gained a couple hundred attendees, but I would expect that the Host would have as well, benefiting from an improving economy as well, though doing so from a higher base level. So 3,500 goes to 3,700 vs, 2,700 goes to 2,900. Or something like that. Of course, there is no way to prove that. It is all conjecture.

John Thomas8

I had WTOP on listening to the traffic report and it said nothing about any backups on I95. That is the quickest way for me to reach the con. Route 1 is not better, as it seems it has a traffic light every 100 feet. I've taken both at times, and see little advantage of one over the other.

Some of my friends would be coming from the West, so they have better options, but as I said, it is hard to change people's perceptions, and they decided the drive was not for them when it moved to VFCC.

Nazrat (Jerry) – given you are coming from NC, it is hard not to figure your bias is for a shorter drive. I understand that. FEC is actually closer to me than the Host, and VFCC was further still. Obviously FEC will be given another year or so to prove itself. Who knows who will be on the board by then, and what their priorities will be. I wish our conventions well, but know most of my friends will never make the trip there – and that is my bias.

Thursdays morning there was a major accident that closed two lanes of I-95S south (exit 112) of Fredericksburg. Traffic was back up to Stafford (exit 140). I popped over to US1. It probably add 10 minutes over a normal I-95 route.
There is another bridge that goes through town, but is hard to find and get to.

"Just so we are using correct data, the last show at the Host was neither a record, nor very different from a multi-year average extending back from that year.

And your point?

A lot of the negative about FEC is couched in terms of attendance. At the attendance level it is at, IF the show is profitable and the dealers are game to return, then it is viable and worthy of hosting future shows.

I have not heard much from the third leg of the stool, the GMs about whether they would/not return other than the noise. And some said they had no problem, others did.

So if we can make money, have vendors & games, what's not to like?

A while back there was discussion about the hundreds of attendees that attended a show and never returned to another convention…and that was at the Host. So there are other dynamics in the attendance of any convention we are not accounting for, beyond location.

Ironic, most of the people against the "take it to the next level" are now decrying the lower attendance of the new location.

And finally, the assumption that "the Host is still the Holy Grail of locations for Historicon" …I found Bob Coggin's observations about its current condition cautionary. Like an old high school flame, we remember her as she was…but a lot can change in 5-6 years ESPECIALLY with hotels/convention centers.

Buildings do not get better with age unless they have constant maintenance and improvements. While A/C is not required in November nor March, its crucial to a positive convention in the heat & humidity of July or August.

So before we start a tidal wave of "Return to Lancaster!!", lets make sure its a place we really want to return too in the future. The place MAY not be up to it [building & staff].

For the record, I travel from Michigan and would attend at ANY location Historicon is held at.

I think the point is that Historicon is supposed to be the convention to go to if you could only attend one. Maybe it is just me, but I have noticed some drop off in quality of games in recent years (and less spectacular ones), and the attendance numbers speak for themselves. Since the price increase at VFCC I have also noticed some dealers bringing less wares, and taking up less space. Some don't come at all anymore. I think Hcon used to be the focus convention for many of the tournaments as well. So I guess this is the ocnvention everyone really cares about and has an opinion about.

"A lot of the negative about FEC is couched in terms of attendance. At the attendance level it is at, IF the show is profitable and the dealers are game to return, then it is viable and worthy of hosting future shows.

I have not heard much from the third leg of the stool, the GMs about whether they would/not return other than the noise. And some said they had no problem, others did.

So if we can make money, have vendors & games, what's not to like?"

Have you ever heard the old joke, "You know the easiest way to make a million? Start with two."

Upsetting the convention, moving it twice, alienating members and attendees, and fiddling away god knows how much money…all to lose 25% of your attendees and call it a success? Odd logic.

"Ironic, most of the people against the "take it to the next level" are now decrying the lower attendance of the new location."

What is ironic is that the megalomania of the next-levelers is precisely what has cause a cratering of attendance. The were pursuing growth that probably was never there, they did almost no homework, they poured through HMGS' coffers like an alcoholic in Vegas, shouted down or ignored anyone who brought up factual arguments against the folly, and, to my knowledge, never took responsibility for the mess they created.

"And finally, the assumption that "the Host is still the Holy Grail of locations for Historicon" …I found Bob Coggin's observations about its current condition cautionary. Like an old high school flame, we remember her as she was…but a lot can change in 5-6 years ESPECIALLY with hotels/convention centers."

Bob's comments were interesting and not unlike most of what he has to say, but I, for one, was there in March for Cold Wars, and the place looked the same as always. No Four Seasons to be sure, but no worse than ever either. And I got out with no deadly mold, no hideous alien fungal infections, and no infectious diseases. I must have the constitution of a rhinoceros!

For the record, I still like the Host and next year I plan to attend Cold Wars and Fall-In there. I just don't like going there in the Summer when the AC fails and the tourists pour in.

What did I mean by a big fat SUCCESS?

– A small minority of members spoke poorly of Historicon 2012 and even went so far as to urge others not to go, but still they came.

– Every manufacturer I spoke to at the convention told me
they liked it and would return.

– In spite of the move to the new location, the economy and all of the other extraneous factors, 2700 people still showed up. Given the circumstances and the challenge the BOD faced, I think they pulled off a major success.

– The flea market was incredible. I've never seen so many people in Wally's Basement, buying, selling and swapping. As a dealer, I think I was a little jealous at first, but then I started to find a few bargains for myself!

– Much has been said about the main gaming hall. Yes, there were quite a few empty tables at times, but whenever I walked in from 9AM – 6PM it was always at last 3/4 full.

One final note. The idea of Achilles sulking in his tent wears thin after a while. If anyone can offer a viable alternative to the Fredericksburg location, we would all like to hear about it. But in the absence of anything constructive, a strategy of sour grapes will never help you win people over.

One of the biggest problems with the Host was always parking but the accommodations in gaming rooms and housing was always adequate and more than adequate. Onsite food has improved to the point where it is no great let down to grab the beef or pork or chicken in the hall buffet for dinner if we don't want to take the time to run offsite to the many restaurants available. The attached hotel offers those who wish to stay there convenience and the privacy of their own bathroom facilities if they wish.

As far as the gaming capacity goes it is more than adequate and encourages late night pick up games that are the true measure of the health of a convention. Also no such noise problem as noted in the FEC site. The ability to byob and share a beer or two (drink responsibly) is also a favorable check mark for the host.

The most favorable things for the Host however continue to be both its central location (out of the way and yet not to far for any of us) (its a 1.6 to 2 hour drive for me and I do drive down to Williamsburg muster so its not the distance that will keep me away from Fredericksburg)and the second the atmosphere of camaraderie that exists there. I felt it ebbing at VFCC and From the reports on the FEC see it ebbing more. Even the dealers are talking about new faces and the loss of many old ones. The regulars who do show up still miss out on those who won't. (I've already been told by one poster on here whom I'm not sure I've ever met in person that neither I or the 10 or so of my normal attending group were not missed. I note that that person is in favor of FEC and so the comment speaks a bit about the level of Camaraderie that can be expected from at least that one supporter.)

The Con should never have moved from the host it lost a lo of its familial in doing so. We are a small group and a fringe hobby. When I first took my daughter back when she was around 10 or 11 to Historicon as we pulled up I told her and the other kids in the car with us "Welcome to Geek Heaven" they loved the con the feel the atmosphere games that they could get into. They loved Pick up games and truly meeting new friends (something that PEL games really don't do with their greater structure). When the Baltimore move resulted in the built in excuse that we can't book the Host we lost that special nature to HCon and it became just another Convention we were Kicked out of Geek Heaven (one of the Hosts rooms is even called the "Paradise" room if I recall right) and have been wandering in the wilderness ever since.

The Con is not about growing it, its not about turning a profit or getting hot rock massages and cucumber facials. Its about gaming with our friends and meeting new ones. Its not a traveling road show where we grab up new attendees and move on. It belongs in an economical location that is central to the membership as a whole. Attached hotels are important as is the support of game masters both on and off the PEL. Its not about tourist sites as our hobby is so time intensive that after gaming and shopping at con most of us have little time left to eat and sleep let alone take a tour of a battle field, local museum or Outlet mall.

We grow the Hobby locally and then drag new converts (conscripts, dice zombies?) to the con with us to seal the deal. That's the way it was always done.

We need to remember who we are and why we are going to a Miniatures Gaming Convention. The BOD in moving lost sight of this.

In the age of the internet, maybe finding a new way to attract new players is necessary.

Maybe not, maybe festering in a moldly building is the way to go.

I go to conventions to play games with metal/plastic miniatures and interact with others who have the same interest.

Maybe I'm not as much of a snob as some, but honestly, I never heard any of my crew complain about the Host like some. I'm all for going to a really nice place. If we want a really nice place, then let's ante up and go to a really nice conference center instead of a Civic Center and then act all surprised when such a facility has inadequate bathrooms, concrete floors and noise problems.

John, you are another NC guy, so again, I understand your bias to have this closer to you – but I feel the same way about having it closer to my crew – most of whom have attended for years. I'm just saying, the bias cuts both ways, no offense meant.

I'm an Ohio guy living were the job is.

Meh.

And let's be clear here, I couldn't attend ANYTHING at the HOST, doesn't matter if they moved the thing to my front yard and somebody paid me $1.4 USD million dollars a day to attend. The last mold infestation I was around wrecked my immune system beyond repair and there's nothing at the HOST risking death over.

Maybe I'm not as much of a snob as some, but honestly,

lol, I missed that lesson in how to win friends and influence people, HG.

And my group [I used to reserve 3-4 rooms for many friends] told me to STOP using the Host. Between the poor service, mishandling of reservations and dicey bathrooms and musty bedrooms, they had enough, though I was not as sensitive. Then we went next door to the Country Inn & Suites…and holy cow! There were clean rooms with modern appointments like microwaves, refrigerators; free continental breakfasts and without the funk for same or less price. And there was no way I could get the gang back into the Host.

So, yeah, some people have had bad experiences and won't reward mediocrity or worse with future business. Me? I'm pretty easy. I'll even stay at the Days Inn if it is 40-45% of the Host rates. That's like value. The Host is not. The biggest joke used to be reading the rate card on the back of the door…HAHAHAHAHA $200 USD+/nite and that was 10+ years ago. That's a howler. I'm curious what do they say now?

"Have you ever heard the old joke, "You know the easiest way to make a million? Start with two."

Yeah I've usually heard it associated with starting a hobby store or a miniatures company. How many are making a living full time, with staff vice part-timers with full time jobs? Not many. But that is not germane to my opinion.

Upsetting the convention, moving it twice, alienating members and attendees, and fiddling away god knows how much money…all to lose 25% of your attendees and call it a success? Odd logic.

The convention has moved before, the losses and SOME of the alienation occurred with a previous BOD. But the convention survived and thrived over time too. Moving it twice was fallout from the previous BOD and a leader whose vision was not met by capacity to execute.

Just think if they had moved it initially to FEC, we'd be on our third learning & improvement cycle. It also has not helped that the dates also changed. remember many many years ago when it was held 3-4 week in July, before it drifted up the calendar to mid-July and then to the first weekend and back? Were there any impacts?

I stand by my criteria and assessment. Waste of time to wring the hands for those that do not show up, like the football player who doesn't report to camp, the team focuses on those who ARE there.

I accept you can not understand the logic. Life goes on.

I don't see where anyone is changing anyone else's mind in this discussion. That's politics.

But I support the BOD in their plan to keep it at the FEC for 2013. I'll enjoy Spotsylvania & Wilderness next year, like we did Antietam & Fredericksburg this year! oh yeah and Chick-fil-A & Wegman's too! That's worth 500 attendees to me!!

" – A small minority of members spoke poorly of Historicon 2012 and even went so far as to urge others not to go, but still they came."

Um…a small minority of members spoke well of it too. It's a small (miniscule) number commenting at all. Except, of course, for the 950+ who commented by staying home.

"– In spite of the move to the new location, the economy and all of the other extraneous factors, 2700 people still showed up. Given the circumstances and the challenge the BOD faced, I think they pulled off a major success."

Yeah, that sounds great from a standing start, but not from where it was. Again…easiest may to make a million bucks? Start with two.

One final note. The idea of Achilles sulking in his tent wears thin after a while. If anyone can offer a viable alternative to the Fredericksburg location, we would all like to hear about it. But in the absence of anything constructive, a strategy of sour grapes will never help you win people over."

Since I am not trying to convince anyone not to go, and I am quite sure the BOD doesn't care what anyone thinks, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'd submit that the FCC boosters need to convince the regiment of longtime attendees who stayed home why they should come next year. Give them that magic route around all the traffic. That should help.

"The convention has moved before, the losses and SOME of the alienation occurred with a previous BOD. But the convention survived and thrived over time too. Moving it twice was fallout from the previous BOD and a leader whose vision was not met by capacity to execute."

True. But when a new BOD takes over, don't you think they should turn the fans on and get rid of the stink?

Everybody keeps saying, "well, what would you do?" For starters, I'd do a poll of members. They have everyone's email address. It would cost almost nothing and be very easy. In fact, I can't think of why you wouldn't do it unless you didn't give a crap what any of the peasants thought.

If it is going to move back to the Host it is obvious that the arrangement must be made a year or two in advance. How about this:

Option 1: Move the convention back to the Host as soon as a mid-July weekend can be secured, leaving it at FCC in the interim.

Option 2: Leave the convention at FCC for the foreseeable future.

Is that so difficult? Stop acting like Agamemnon and do a clear, fair, transparent poll and then execute what the majority of the membership wants.

Civil,

If, as you continue to claim, you have 950 rejectionists start your own convention.

I won't hold my breath.

Bob Coggins

"I stand by my criteria and assessment. Waste of time to wring the hands for those that do not show up, like the football player who doesn't report to camp, the team focuses on those who ARE there.

I accept you can not understand the logic. Life goes on."

How is that logic? How can you run any enterprise and not worry who shows up? Well, we only had four customers, but I call that a rip-roaring success!

John:

I love the Buckeye state. Sorry to hear about the job situation and your illness at the Host. :-(

mcaras:

You are confusing staying at the Host with holding the convention there. Most people do not stay at the Host as tehre isn't room. You exercised good free market values and went elsewhere for your rooms. So what's the problem? Correct me if I am wrong, but the FEC doesn't even have an adjoining hotel anyway, so what is the difference?

Yes, the rate card on the door there is funny, but you often see that kind of thing at hotels. At least I have.

To be clear, the mission of HMGS is to promote the study of military history through wargaming. If any facility attracts less than another, then HMGS is not fulfilling its mission to the best of its ability. The mission – in effect – is to get the most people to their conventions.

The mission is not to please everyone with the selection, it is not to ensure high sales for dealers, it is not to ensure happiness in one's hotel rooms. These are all things largely beyond their control. If X hotel/conference center/civic center/ Wally's basement attracts the most attendees, then that is the best place to fulfill the corporate mission, as more people promotes wargaming better than less people.

FEC will get another shot, maybe two. I guess we'll go from there. As I said, I wish our conventions well, wherever they are.

For the record, sometimes I stay at the Host sometimes I don't. I find the convenience of staying on site more important than a better room – if I am running a game. That is subjective, but I could not do it at VFCC, nor will I be able to at FEC.

"I'd submit that the FCC boosters need to convince the regiment of longtime attendees who stayed home why they should come next year."

True dat.

Unless Historicon only becomes one of three conventions they offer, with a nod to our southern friends for easier access. If that is the plan, then say so. I'll go, but stating that would alleviate the ax grinding over the attendance loss and three hour drive shift of what once was the flagship, can't miss it convention.

I think the issue here is the bar is set so low that it's easy to say FCC was a smashing success. My perception is this:

1) Civil went to FCC and gave a good, level review of the convention. Kudos to him for going and reporting – a job well done.

2) Some people don't like the fact that Historicon lost attendees. For whatever reason, since 2008 the convention attracts less people.

3) Some people love it there, some people thought it was OK, some will never go.

4) The Board of Directors have a serious perception issue. If its not cleared up, there will continue to be issue – possibly to the point of a split (not probable, but possible).

I think those that love the FCC would do well to find a common ground with Civil et al, bury the hatchet and bring out the olive branch. More can be gotten with honey than vinegar.

366 pretty much nailed it.

There's one thing I'd like to add. If you're pro-FCC, I'm not your problem. You can complain about me pointing out problems, but I went this year and said I'd go next year, so I'm not doing anything to contribute to the low numbers.

What I won't do is go along with baseless platitudes, talking up FCC at all costs, shooting down anything negative no matter how clearly factual.

I went to FCC and it was good enough that I will go back, but that does not invalidate people's negative opinions.

If we want to act like a bunch of 8 year olds playing football, where everybody gets a trophy and everything is a "smashing" success, that's fine, but it's not me. I tell it like I see it.

The con was fine. The site was fine. But the bathrooms and the noise and the onsite food were all a problem. The onsite hotels looked great, but the offsite ones are much more of a hike than they were at the Host. We have lost a lot of gamers, many of which were friends and great GMs and loyal attendees who helped make this thing what it was for 20 years. So in my book, spouting about how unrelentingly awesome FCC is and what a great success it was, is not terribly useful or credible. There were clearly good points. There were just as clearly bad points.

Civildisobedience states: "If you read the entirety of my posts you would see that I said the move was the only factor different between the 2012 and 2009 conventions. Both of these took place during troubled economic times, and while a case can be made that 2009 was worse, I am looking at this as a wash. Thus, if 2013 does prove to be a stronger year economically, it would not surprise me if FCC gained a couple hundred attendees, but I would expect that the Host would have as well, benefiting from an improving economy as well, though doing so from a higher base level. So 3,500 goes to 3,700 vs. 2,700 goes to 2,900. Or something like that. Of course, there is no way to prove that. It is all conjecture."

Your point has always been that the move away from the Host is the only reason for the drop in attendance between 2009 and 2012. I have disputed this point and continue to dispute this point. It is true that some have stated their reason for not attending was the move, but others have stated they did not attend because of a continuing bad economy. It is therefore reasonable to assume that there are multiple factors, the move and the economy included, that have combined to hurt attendance unless you disregard those who have stated not attending due to economic reasons.

Stating that "if 2013 does prove to be a stronger year economically, it would not surprise me if FCC gained a couple hundred attendees," seems to imply that the economy has indeed affected attendance over the last several years. If 2013 proves to be a better economic year and attendance increases would it not be reasonable to assume that if the 2012 economy was better then attendance would have been higher this year? So "2,700 goes to 2,900. Or something like that." If this assumption is true then the number of attendees who did not come due to the move goes down and proves that the move is not the only factor.

"But I would expect that the Host would have as well, benefiting from an improving economy as well, though doing so from a higher base level. So 3,500 goes to 3,700 vs. 2,700 goes to 2,900. Or something like that. Of course, there is no way to prove that. It is all conjecture." So are you conjecturing that bad economic years in 2010 and 2011 would not have affected attendance at the Host? If Historicon were at the Host this year would attendance have been at similar levels to 2009? Was the loss of 100 people between 2008 and 2009 the extent of the bad economy losses at the Host?

You seem to know the minds of those who did not attend Historicon between 2010 and 2012 better than they themselves.

"Your point has always been that the move away from the Host is the only reason for the drop in attendance between 2009 and 2012. I have disputed this point and continue to dispute this point. It is true that some have stated their reason for not attending was the move, but others have stated they did not attend because of a continuing bad economy. It is therefore reasonable to assume that there are multiple factors, the move and the economy included, that have combined to hurt attendance unless you disregard those who have stated not attending due to economic reasons.

Stating that "if 2013 does prove to be a stronger year economically, it would not surprise me if FCC gained a couple hundred attendees," seems to imply that the economy has indeed affected attendance over the last several years. If 2013 proves to be a better economic year and attendance increases would it not be reasonable to assume that if the 2012 economy was better then attendance would have been higher this year?"

I actually at at a loss for how many ways I can say this or how clear and straightforward I can make it.

I stated, in clear and profound terms and on multiple occasions, that I believed the economy had impacted Historicon since 2009. So, yes. I suspect attendance was depressed this year from what it would have been had the economy been better. But the base year of 2009 was at least as badly affected given that by most (if not technically all) standards, 2009 economic conditions were even worse than today's.

The FCC shills continue to raise the economy as if it had not been affecting 2009, 2010, and 2011 Hcons. I suppose they were all immune and only poor FCC was impacted. So to everyone who was unemployed or whose business was bad before 2012, you were just making all that up so you could discredit FCC. Double G, I think it was, thinks he had a bad convention in 2009, but clearly that's not possible because 2009 was a boom year, when the streets were paved with gold and every other person in America went to Hcon, creating a comparable that poor FCC couldn't hope to match.

Go look at an economic chart for 2009 and tell me that Hcon 2009 had better economic conditions that 2012. If not, then the comparable is the same, and the economy is not a legitimate explanation for cratered attendance COMPARED TO 2009.

Yes, I am sure that FCC would draw more in a good economy, but so would the Host, and from a higher level. Need I remind everyone that the MOVE HISTORICON NOW! crowd based thei whole argument on the fact that we were outgrowing the Host. Now, all of a sudden, it's unreasonable to expect more than 2,700 attendees. What a bunch of propaganda BS.

Also, no matter how many times you repeat that I seem to know people's minds it will not change the fact that I claim to speak for no one. I analyze data. The only variable I can identify is the location, and this is supported by anecdotal evidence. What other serious suggestions have been put forth? Nascar?

The Host did not lose an enormous number of people in 2009, but there was a measurable decline that reversed an upward trend. It's likely that if the economy had remained strong that growth would have continued (the next levelers certainly pimped growth as a reason for leaving). So instead of increasing a couple hundred, it dropped off 100.

I'd wager that attendees spent less in 2009. Double G mentioned that his sales were terrible that year. Since Lancaster was closer to most of the attendees, it made shorter stays and day trips more feasible. It offered more people the chance to make a cheaper trip and still attend.

But again, before you claim I think I know everything, that is just my own guess at what would have happened. There is no way to know. But there is not evidence to claim that FCC was burdened any more by the economy than the Host in 2009.

"I stated, in clear and profound terms and on multiple occasions, that I believed the economy had impacted Historicon since 2009. So, yes. I suspect attendance was depressed this year from what it would have been had the economy been better. But the base year of 2009 was at least as badly affected given that by most (if not technically all) standards, 2009 economic conditions were even worse than today's."

Stating that the economy has depressed the numbers for 2012 but that the move is the only factor in attendance level drops between 2009 and 2012 would seem to be two contradictory statements or it implies that attendance at the Host would have grown since 2009. Are you now revising your earlier statements to say that multiple factors, including the move and a bad economy, have combined to drive attendance down between 2009 and 2012 or are you saying that while the bad economy has affected numbers for 2012 any amount of people who would have attended this year in a better economy would have been offset by growth at the Host if the convention had stayed there? You have stated repeatedly that you base your arguments solely on facts but upon what facts would this implication be based?

There is no way to know what the numbers for the Host would have been between 2010 and 2012. Numbers could have risen, dropped or stayed the same. Do you still contend that the move is the only factor for losing 950 attendees and upon what math are you basing this assertion? Attendance has dropped 967 since 2008 and 865 since 2009. It would therefore be safe to assume that at least 100 of those 950 past attendees have stayed away because of the recession and a bad economy.

OK, here it is one more way.

1. The economy was at least as depressed in 2009 as in 2012.

2. To the extent that the economy depressed attendance in 2012, it likely it also depressed attendance by a similar amount in 2009.

3. I didn't say there was absolutely no other cause than the move. I said no reasonable evidence was presented to hypothesize any other reason.

4. To explain a differential between 2009 and 2012 you need factors that existed in 2012 but DID NOT exist in 2009. Thus, the economy is probably a zero sum game.

5. When I said if the economy was better it would likely have improved attendance in BOTH 2009 and 2012. Nothing in that statement contradicts a thing I have said.

Yes, the 100 people who stayed away from both 2009 and 2012 were probably victims of the economy. It is the other 865 that are problematic.

I think we all know the talking points by now. FEC = fewer attendees because it's too far away versus the Economy is in the crapper, and numbers would have gone down regardless.

Historicon will be in Fredericksburn in 2013. You can choose to attend or not. If you think that attending is a vote of confidence in the decision (well, not that there were any realistic choices) to move it to Fredericksburg, and you choose to not be there, the loss is yours.

Except we're in year 4 of a crappy employment environment, raises aren't even matching inflation, bonuses are getting whacked with chain saws (mine fell by two-thirds since 2008) and time off is at a premium.

Naw, there's nothing in the economy keeping people from spending. Things are perfect compared to 2009 and everybody has tons of $100 USDs falling out their pockets.

This is just a note on the economy . I own a small irrigation company in Florida ( was 42 employes, now 18 ) Myself and most of the dozens of companies I deal with were impacted by a slowing of the economy starting in 2008. Most of us and many other service and construction companies around the country actually didnt start laying off folks untill the last two years . Myself and many of the above have learned to do business with 60 % of are previous work force . Many of us have also cut back drasticaly on spending ie ..extra stock of parts ,newer work vehicles,eating out for lunch every day , even toilet paper. If you all think the economy will be changing anytime soon or getting back to pre 2009 ever your crazy . Get use to the change . This is not to say life cant be good ,just different .

John Thomas,

I didn't say things were good now. They are terrible. But they were just as bad in 2009, and probably worse. Not only were the numbers worse then, but there was much more fear. Restaurants and stores were doing very little business, as people were simply not spending. I don't understand what is unclear about this.

Coolyork,

I run a business too. I agree that businesses have learned to become more efficient, and that many of the lost jobs are probably not coming back soon.

All businesses have different cycles and are affected in different ways and at different times. If you'd been up in the northeast, your layoffs would have been in 2009, because in late 2008 your business would have fallen off a cliff.

I personally don't think the economy will get much better anytime soon. But I don't think it is worse than 2009 nor that it will get worse than 2009.

"Yes, the 100 people who stayed away from both 2009 and 2012 were probably victims of the economy. It is the other 865 that are problematic."

Okay, so the number of lost attendees we are now working with is 865 instead of 950.

Apparently the only two statistical points that can be gleaned from the 2008-2012 attendance levels are that the total drop of attendance due to the recession and bad economy is 102 people based on the 2008-2009 numbers and the move from the Host to the VFCC to the FEC has caused 865 people not to attend based on the 2009-2012 numbers. Simple cut and dry facts taking nothing else into account other than the locations. It is truly flawless logic.

A couple of other important variables are 1) the time of the month in July the event was held on, 2) how many people didn't attend just to spite HMGS due to its past foolish decisions, and 3) people who didn't attend because they wanted to hear how the event went off at the FEC before they spent money and time going there this year.

600! Are we there yet????