"Historicon Review" Topic

Gil I have no axe to grind over where it is hosted just a point of order when in debate people try to use facts that do not necessarily support their view but they choose to say it does. (The reason for 950 less is in dispute, but yes there is less but why, who knows for sure…)

BTW I have never been to the Host (not for Wargames, might have been there when younger as I did go to a Rotary do in some big hotel in PA when I was in NY). It does not sound great and perhaps has had it's day? Perhaps if it was still there instead of debating FCC people would be going why are we still in the host??

The points you make are fair about silent membership. It cuts both ways…

I have made my views about FCC and VFCC and over the two I preffered the FCC. By the sounds of the Host I would not like it as much as FCC but if the games were as good then I would still enjoy it and the company of some excellent gamers. I will have to trust the BOD to make a choice.

For those that post that they wish the show to fail are akin to a dog in the manger scenario

link

BTW CD is not one of those and as you say you offer a view that the Host is better suited to the group all for valid reasons….

I would guess this is the year to get some representation on the BOD and perhaps use some democracy to have a vote on the issue?

If there are just short of a 1000 people who are dead set against moving from the Host, and the elections to the BOD saw only a couple of hundred at most vote, then surely the answer is obvious?

Those who want the con to move back to the Hole should stand for election with that as their platform, and those 1000 people will all vote for them, surely?

Civil, I do see your points concering how the moves where made and that the local( ie NE )etc.. membership could feel disnfranchised by it . I am sure it sucks for a lot of reasons. That being said a lot of us furthure south like the move for obvious reasons ( distance, nicer digs etc). Those of us who have traveled for years to Pa. have done so willingly and would again if it was to move . All most of us are saying is give it a chance ( I know Im asking a lot ). Most members and gamers North,South ,East and West will go regardless of the location , whether there is 2700 or 3300 folks there , 65 or 85 Dealers, 500 or 600 games .. Most dont care if HMGS makes a lot of money or just enough to get by. The voting numbers sort of prove how little the majority care other then to have fun . As much as I enjoy bantering back and forth with and you are challenging . Im sure if we all had been just sitting around having a beer or a sweat tea in person instead of this impersonal form of communication , we would most likely agree on more things then not. Have a good day

The issue of voting is certainly indicative of a far bigger problem than the BCC-VFCC-FCC-Timbuktu Historicon location. The organization is aging, shrinking and due to an accumulation of a toxic stew of petty historical injuries, grudges and slights, has an organizational culture that may be fatal in that any and all leadership is considered per se 'evil' resulting in the voluntary job of serving on the BOD is the equivalent of deep masochism. NOTE – I am referring to HMGS-E, not other chapters, not the hobby.

This past election HMGS-E has three openings, only three people volunteered/stepped up to run and only 153 members voted.

In the past three elections the voting certainly never reached 400 members.

Unless otherwise proven, I'd say the voting clearly indicates that overall, the Silent Majority exists but a) 10% will vocally hate anywhere Historicon moves and another 20-30% silently dislike, all for a variety of reasons including too far East/West/South/North, bad hotel, too costly, etc. etc. b) 60+% does not give a rats backside who is on the BOD, what they stand for, what they did in the past or where the future is headed provided they get a couple of good Cons a year to attend and c) 99.9% having witnessed that being on the BOD is the ultimate thankless job with all downside and no upside beyond maybe keeping the group going a bit longer, will not consider anything like serving since to do so immediately gets you branded as one of 'them', guilty of all sins and slights of the past twenty years and we are rapidly approaching the point where BOD openings will exceed volunteers. (How many posts refer to the BOD as 'THEM'? They are not a them, they are individuals who have changed substantially post-BCC and they are trying very hard.)

Whether I like FCC, yearn for the Host or having lost all sense of reason, demand a move to Kabul, Aleppo or Newark, I don't think anyone in this discussion wants to hurt the organization yet the behavior sucks. Both sides made their initial points in a civil fashion and we simply will not all agree on any place, the FCC will always be too far South for some, the Host will always be too much a dump for others and some will never understand that overall, we are never going to get a perfect place but if you really want change VOTE, run for the BOD and in the process, be civil enough to the people that do put themselves out there that others will regard the BOD as a place to serve, not a sentence to abuse.

coolyork,

I agree. I don't really care if HMGS makes a lot of money as long as it makes enough to be secure. And even with lower attendance I suspect they are fine at FCC.

I don't begrudge those who live in that direction either. It's just tough to move something when it has been in one location for 20 years. I've actually tried hard to steer clear of this whole north vs. south thing.

Either way, I go to all the cons unless life rears its ugly head and interferes. Hcon at FCC was diminished for me because so many familiar faces were not there (and these are guys who runs some really good games) but it was still a good time. How could it not be?

In any event, there's certainly no animosity from me. I don't think anyone one here is truly malevolent (well, maybe one, but the less said, the better…). Tea is good, but after 500 posts I think we need a beer.

I ain't a politician, Herr, and I doubt anyone will make the effort. But if someone did, and they were able to reach the people who are upset, they'd probably win.

Mckinstry,

I think there is a lot of truth in what you say, but I do think the board brings a lot of this on themselves.

The Baltimore thing was a fiasco, and it wasn't anything unpredictable or secret that made that a mess. There was a lot of arrogance in that whole thing as well as disregard for both the member/attendees and the dealers.

Ok, there are new board members now. But when you inherit control of an organization you take over the good and the bad. Why aren't they more communicative, especially when it is obvious that the whole Baltimore escapade caused a lot of bad feelings? Why don't they make sure to post the minutes on time?

More importantly, why don't they let membership know what is going on and allow them to participate meaningfully? They have everyone's email address. Or they should – they've asked for mine about 65 times.

How about an email to the membership, apologizing (as an organization) for the mismanagement that took place and explaining why FCC is the best option? Maybe that email could have asked for the the support of members and made them feel at least in the loop. How about a poll of members as to whether they want to stay in FCC or return to the Host when it is possible? How about even clearly announcing what was and was not available at the Host (in terms of specific weeks and years)? TMP does polls constantly…why can't HMGS throw one up somewhere and send out a couple email blasts telling people about it?

It's hard to get past the conclusion that they don't do it because they don't want to be bothered with any of it. Why let something as petty as the wishes of members interfere with things.

When people are already upset about something, I can't imagine how you could handle them worse than what has been done.

A few emails? A poll? Is that really unreasonable?

The problem is that they forget what we are. I get yelled at every time I say this, but fundamentally, HMGS is a club. We play games. The organization does nothing that anyone but us gives a crap about. We're not a charity. We don't feed starving kids; we don't even preserve battlefields. We run events so we can play games.

Such an organization needs the good will and support of its members,and I don't think the board understand this. They need to guys who run games or the attendees to be tolerant when the registration desk is backed up in a way that would infuriate you if it was a regular commercial business.

If HMGS wanted to think of itself as a business, then be a business. Pay everyone from the reg desk to the GMs minimum wage at least, get some workers comp, and walk the walk. Otherwise, run the think like a wargaming club and at least try to pretend you care what the members think

Personally I agree that communication, open, in depth and if need be repetitive to the point of overkill would be ideal. I honestly do not know or understand the reason for the excessive caution ( and I genuinely think it is caution resulting from the BCC and accompanying litigation fiasco) in not laying out all the details but the Fall In members meeting should be a good place to ask, as is the Yahoo Group (which I have not seen censor anyone for political questions in the past year).

Running for the BOD as a slate promising significantly more open communication might work. 160-180 votes would win most elections over the past 4-6 years although, and this is just my opinion, I think regardless of your position on HCon, the finances or any other issue, the amount of abuse you can anticipate will be large to the point where finding 4 (a voting majority I believe) gamers willing to sacrifice that much stomach lining may be difficult.

It is indeed a club, in theory a voluntary association of like minded individuals getting together for the express purpose of pursuing our common hobby although the 501(c) status technically makes us an educational organization and forces at least some compromises as to how things are run and what official things can be said in public lest the IRS arise and smite. Again, a clear communication of those restrictions or limits would probably make everyones life easier.

Gil Bates,

Yesterday I wrote:

I WAS AT THE HOST TODAY (August 5), to visit the WBC convention. Don Greenwood who manages the convention told me the hotel had no A/C in the gaming areas for 4/5 days, punctuated by occasional unpredictable ceiling warterfalls as the system slowly collapsed.

While the Host eventually was able to patch-up the antiquated A/C system, it does not intend to replace it because it is too expensive, given the age of the hotel.

Though friends who stayed at the hotel did not complain of mold, they did complain of less than adequate housekeeping in the guest rooms, the deteriorating quality of the food and the increasing costs of alcohol and room rentals.

The board wargamers are now looking for another facility.

Yet you wrote:

"The bottom line is that the Host is Cheaper and fully adequate for our needs."

Your definition of fully adequate and mine seem to differ.

Nevertheless, gamers who are dissatisfied should run for the board and establish a consensus to return Historicon to PA. Alternatively you should start your own convention. If you do, please hold it at the Host.

Let's say the attendance comes in at a low 2500. I count 10 or so posters who are vehemently opposed to Fredericksburg. So be my guest and put up your money and start a convention in competition with Historicon.

Bob Coggins

I see a lot of numbers around for Historicon attendance, how has the economic downturn affected the other two HMGS cons?

"Your definition of fully adequate and mine seem to differ."

I'd say 20 years of great and profitable conventions over which time the program grew and prospered at the Host meets most generally accepted definitions of "fully adequate."

Unless, of course, you are just irrationally out to trash the Host to the extent of selective memory and banishment of reality.

Bob, a study done shows that for every 1 person that complains there are 26 that say nothing and walk away. A person who has a bad experience will tell 10 others, while 13% will tell more than 20 others.

You counted at least 10 – and that's only on TMP. Does HMGS have a method of tracking the satisfaction of their members?

Don't discount the damage the leadership of HMGS has done.

> a study done shows that for every 1 person that complains

That does not mean "complains on the internet", it means they complain to the staff/manager. It is well known that the internet is an echo chamber for the disenchanted. (and now I duck out again)

"Let's say the attendance comes in at a low 2500. I count 10 or so posters who are vehemently opposed to Fredericksburg."

Bob, I agree, so forget how many people are posting here for/against. But you seem to be ignoring the 1,000+ people who did not attend. What about them?

FEC has roughly the same amount of space as the Host, perhaps the same parking issues, and what appear to be inadequate bathrooms. This is not the future for Hcon, perhaps at best an interim location.

I agree with your assessment the clock is ticking on the Host. I agree that HMGS needs to find alternate facilities. I'll take the dealers word that they did realy well at FEC (perhaps with lots of new people – just not enough to replace many of the old ones).

The point being, if Hcon at FEC grows back to Host-like numbers (big "if"), we will have outgrown it. So then what? You've just kicked the can down the road a year or two at best, lost future dates for a return to the Host, and still have no near term solution, unless the plan is to go to a location that attracts less attendees and that is the solution.

It is irrelevant how many people on here complained or liked it. The people on this board on TMP are a miniscule minority of involved people on all sides of the issue.

Being worried about outgrowing the FEC is not a concern we should be having yet. If it DOES eventually grow to the 3600+ level we can deal with it then. Trying to prematurely "fix" something that isn't an issue yet is what got us into the BCC fiasco.

firstvarty1979:

You missed my point. My point is, by the accounts of parking and bathrooms we may have already outgrown it, and if we get past numbers, we will be beyond it.

FEC may have gained us some new attendees – based on dealer sales – and that is great, but we are down about 1,000 past attendees and the place is no bigger than the Host, cost more, and can't grow much at all. It is a short term fix at best.

In short, this is not a light year leap beyond the Host, only incremental for the less than last year attendance.

I think those who are critical of the parking are way off. The more remote parking lot was barely used. The bathrooms are a more problematic issue, but there are possible fixes to that. Space, according to the two sites publicized numbers (yeah I know, "we use every square foot of space at the Host", including bathrooms, I'm sure, for gaming!) favors the FEC by a little bit.

The owners and staff at the Host responded over the years to maximize our enjoyment of their facility, despite its several problems. The Onus is upon us to notify the FEC ownership of their facilities problems, and to see how they respond. If we get a Host-like response, we consider the options for out-years. If it's a response like that received from the Ike, we need to start looking yesterday for a new spot.

NOTE: I think the FEC is the superior facility from an access standpoint, and it has more and better outside dining choices. The Host is closer to traditional attendees' homes, and has a "history" as the location of the convention. There are fair complaints about both sites, as there are advantages to both.

Did people really not go because the con was in Virginia? Really?

Well, I'm not sure it was the state per se, so much as the region, but I did run across two people who usually attend Hcon and both said they would never attend while it was in Fredericksburg. I did not press them for a reason. One man, I believe, lives in the NYC area, but I didn't know the other man. I said nothing negative about the con, only asked the first guy if he went and the second guy overheard the conversation and jumped in with his comments.

Some have said they didn't attend because the convention was in Virginia. Others said they didn't attend because of economic reasons. Obviously those who said they didn't attend because of economic reasons cannot be believed.

Egads. How 1863 of them.

Wonder if they know it's 2012 and the war's been over for 148 years. That it's all one country and has been for a while?

Of course, there's a bunch of 'em down here that haven't figured it out yet, either.

I think it was more they felt the con had moved too far away from "them" – which was also the sentiment of my friends in Pittsburgh as well – or they didn't want to fight the DC traffic to get there. I did not get into any great discussion with them on it, that was only my impression based upon the short exchange.

We also discussed the smaller MFCA show now, and how it didn't seem worthy of any great drive either.

I think some tend to foget that many of the attendees are less dedicated to gaming than they are, and if a con moves further away, they are less inclined to go. My one friend who often attended said he didn't wish to fight the traffic around Valley Forge to attend. Once people have an idea in their mind I find it near impossible to change that.

I wasn't speaking about the folks you spoke to, more towards a few of the posts up-thread who clearly carry on about "Southern Rabble Rousers", etc.

It's hard to make my head fit around the lack of thought it took to write that.

If the con got new people I think that is great. Perhaps then it is time to de-emphasize Hcon as the premier convention and just go with it as one of three they offer. If it works out it grows, then great. If CW grows, then great. But Hcon is not what is used to be in dealers or attendees.

By the way, VA is a great state. If you love history, there is no way you can't love VA.

Of course, every new person actually means one more than 950 of the old attendees who stayed home.

I don't think it is a north south thing, despite a few people taking potshots. It's just simple economics/demographics. The further away it is the more people it will lose. You could probably draw a graph.

I think a lot of people forget that it's not just people getting into a snit or refusing to drive…the longer it is, the more subject to problems. One of my friends was going to go with us, for example, but he ended up having a meeting he couldn't skip Friday. There is no doubt he would have come to Lancaster friday night. arriving in time to grab a bite and maybe play a beer and pretzels game before bed. But it wasn't worth six hours each way for him to be there for just one day so he bailed.

I remember another year when a friend had to leave to attend one of his kids' playoff games. He drove home on the one day and back that night. He would hat sat out if the drive had been six hours each way.

FCC is a nice facility, but I think demographics run against it. I guess we'll see. As a personal note, I like the dynamic of the meeting space and hotel in one complex like the Host. I always thought it tied together nicely, with the bar area as a sort of focal point.

This sounds an awful lot like another thread or two on the subject. But for all that I'll take another shot at it.

Many have been comparing HOST peak attendance to first time attendance at Fredericksburg. When the convention moved to the Host from the Penn Harris (a much friendlier venue) because the latter had been outgrown, we had reached near 2,000, having moved to the Penn Harris when numbers were reaching 1,000.

Bob Coggins last HISTORICON reported 2,250 or so. We got a big jump to nearly 3,000 the following year (J.T.'s first) because we had saturated ORIGINS 95 with propaganda and put on a number of spectacular games there in nearby Philadelphia the weekend before.

Attendance crept up in a slow fashion until "He whos name cannot be spoken" saturated ORIGINS 98 (In Columbis IIRC) with printed PELs and we hit over 3,600.

That was followed by a sharp decline which was accelerated by the abandonment of the printed PEL around 2000.

In the new milleneum an accelarated propaganda program which I think of as Del Stover's Brochure Blizzard started attendance on an upward climb. But we were far from filling the HOST when the "NEXT LEVEL" drumbeat began.

The proximate cause was that we had a backlog of vendors wanting in. We still were nowhere near the 1998 peak when it came to attendance. So the people in charge started raising prices on gamers, membership, etc. far more than they did on vendors (thus flunking capitalism 101.)

In 2003 when the HOST was charging us $4,900 USD for "meeting rooms" the BOD flirted with VFCC which was willing to charge us about 800% of that. But the membership was not having any.

Eventually after some really bad contracts with the HOST had been negotiated by persons unknown and the Brochure Blizzards were filling the HOST we had another shot at the "Next Level" making and breaking contracts with the BCC.

That of course led to the VFCC, a nice but hellaciously expensive venue. But after one gala convention (with attendance below the year before at the HOST but costs sky high-offset by overcharging vendors) they tried to become a casino but didn't quite make it last year.

I guess the moral of the story is, attendance has not been constant, usually falls slightly when moving to a new venue, and is influenced by factors which may include but are not dominated by the general economy.

But even before Bob reported the decline and fall of the HOST, I don't think it had enough parking, no matter how many yankees love it with a purple passion.

Pat Condray

Pat, that sounds like a reasonable accounting of what has happened over the years. Much too reasonable for this crowd to give it any credence I‘m afraid.

Everything Pat said makes sense. Nothing in that supports an "FCC rules at all costs" effort to deny massive the attendance dropoff has nothing to do with location and to ignore both demographics and abundant anecdotal evidence that a lot of people are unhappy with the location.

for me, if the convention was profitable with smaller numbers, I'm good to go. Lets grow it. Lets improve it. One data point against the best of nearly 2 decades is not a comparison I'd bother with. IF attendance were to decline consistently then we will know from the revenue, vendors & gamers attending the venue is not viable.

There are many criteria upon which one could measure the pros/cons of either location.

One is an apple, one an orange. I've been to both and both have their pros and cons.

The suggestion to take a poll of the membership is intriguing. But I'd say its non-binding and only given weight if a statistically significant number of members vote, it can't be 100-200 out of 2,000 unless those were chosen based upon demographics to represent the population of members.

I drove from Ft Monmouth NJ to Ft Pickett in VA consistently for 5 years, and there are a multitude of very good roads that both skip the DC traffic and don't add significantly to the trip time. And that was before GPS/Google maps were available.

And for me personally, I'll never be able to set foot in HOST because I'd like to go home after the event.

"for me, if the convention was profitable with smaller numbers, I'm good to go. Lets grow it. Lets improve it. One data point against the best of nearly 2 decades is not a comparison I'd bother with. IF attendance were to decline consistently then we will know from the revenue, vendors & gamers attending the venue is not viable."

Just so we are using correct data, the last show at the Host was neither a record, nor very different from a multi-year average extending back from that year.

When it comes to conventions, consistency breeds success. HMGS can grow at Fredricksburg and yes HMGS can be proud of both the quality of the facility and the location.

Bob Coggins

Bob:

To be factual, HMGS can only grow a limited amount at the FEC given its square footage as compared to the Host, and its other limitations (parking, bathrooms, noise).

I just want to be sure we are framing this discussion by the fact that FEC is only good enough now because of the attendance lost the past three years (including the last one at FEC).

FEC is not the convention facility of the future, unless attendance does not grow, and then Hcon becomes only one of three roughly equally sized conventions HMGS offers. If that happens, then it is fine, but if it ever grows back to Host-like number, or perhaps even VFCC, then it is too small – unless HMGS was doing a terrible job of managing its space at the Host – which I do not believe to be the case.

My point being, if Hcon ever gets back to Host-like numbers (and I hope it does), and if we don't want to return to the Host, then we need to find another place soon.

Jim, you speak so authoritatively on the size, bathrooms, and noise of the FEC. It's funny how you can know so much when you didn't even attend the convention!

Your signal to noise ratio is destroying any good points you may make.

So how full or empty were the gaming tables? Is there built in room to grow by just utilizing the available space?

There were scads of tables available at all times. Many, many more games could have been run.

There were ENOUGH bathrooms but the FEC staff didn't (or couldn't) keep up with the amount of mess that was made.

Parking was fine with plenty of room to grow there, too.

So there is room to grow. And it'll be hard to believe that the FEC staff won't get the message about restroom use, either.

First year hosting the event brings first year problems.

It still weirds me out, folks objecting to the location like they're being asked to visit a foreign, hostile environment.

"HMGS can be proud of both the quality of the facility and the location."

and

"Your definition of fully adequate and mine seem to differ."

Sometimes Bob I'm not sure if I'm debating with a gamer or Jernnifer Lopez. "That's not up to the Standards of a Diva Darling." The point I'm trying to stress is that what we need is a "Big Tent" attitude. It would be ok with me if we gamed in tents on Yasgur's farm if that location was centrally located made sense and was accomdating to us.

The Host is every bit as worthy as any new facillity and in fact is a great deal less expensive. The host is the model of "consistentcy" for us. Can HCON grow somewhere else? Perhaps. The problem I see is this agenda of Move the Con at all Costs and then the presentation of the move as a fait acompli to us "Oh the Host isn't available." And then being told to just live with it "Oh the new sites just need time."

"Time" for what? The same time that is bing wasted on these fabulous new sites rather than relying on the consistency of the HOST is time for gamers to become disenchanted with Historicon. It is time for other gaming options to become more attactive to gamers. For well over a decade it was not a question as to whether I was going to HCon. Now it is. The creep started with the Baltimore Scheemers and then became the "Oh gosh golly the Host is Booked forever and ever and ever." That is Bullpucky.

Now I know how Dorothy felt fighting off the Fezzed Monkees and just wanting to get back to a nice stable Kansas. I feel like I need to be clicking my heels together
saying "There's no place like Host there's no place like Host" In other words Bob, give me the good old solid Black and White environs of Lancaster and the Host over the Modern New Technicolor of your wonderful OZ like FEC location any day. I think that maybe some of the 100% supporters of the FEC spent too much time sleeping in the poppy field.

I'll not even get into the fact that I have no desire to deal with the hellish sojurn down the road past Baltimore and DC like some post apocalypic Mel Gibson just to do miniatures battle in what many have dubbed a "Thunderdome". But that's a different movie isn't it.

Gil Bates.

Is there room for the dealer area to grow to allow more dealers? I believe it listed 65 dealers and that it was sold out but I do remember a few years at the Host when there were anywhere from 80 to almost 100 dealers at Historicon.

I'll defer to Pat Condray on the parking and bathroom situations at the FEC.

While we can debate the facilities of the FEC or the Host, there is no debate that 1,000 less people attended the FEC than the last Host Hcon. The dealers reported they did better than the Host or the VFCC, and that makes sense.

The square footage of the Host and FEC are facts, not my opinion. The fact that 1,000 less people attended, and the FEC drew less dealers (taking up less space?) would explain all the open area, so I wouldn't brag about that either. The number of games were down from any of the recent Hcons, so again, that is why there was plenty of space for more games.

And, I would have been there if I hadn't gotten caught in a massive I95 traffic jam at Woodbridge. Perhaps you'd like to debate that too? I'll be there next year, but I know a lot of people who won't. The truth is the FEC may be a nice/newer facility, but it does not mean we'll achieve our old numbers there. Of course it is there for next year, so we'll see what happens. I will be one of them, as long as the traffic gods of I95 allow it.

"While we can debate the facilities of the FEC or the Host, there is no debate that 1,000 less people attended the FEC than the last Host Hcon. The dealers reported they did better than the Host or the VFCC, and that makes sense."

I saw some dealers say they had a good show and a couple who said they did better than last year. I also saw one say his cost were up 10% and sales down 10% but he was still happy. I didn't see anyone say they did better than 2009 at the Host. Of course that doesn't mean no one did. Any dealers out there who did better than 2009?

I'm not surprised that new attendees generated a lot of sales. The first time I saw that dealer hall I almost lost my mind. That first Hcon cost me at least $2 USDk.

"While we can debate the facilities of the FEC or the Host, there is no debate that 1,000 less people attended the FEC than the last Host Hcon."

Okay, we got it. I feel like I'm in a political campaign where one side gets a buzz word or catch phrase and just keeps repeating it until everything else that's actually happening NOW is overwhelmed and disregarded. Yes, I agree completely. There were less people than back in the glory days of The Host before the BCC fiasco, but about the same as last year. As has been mentioned any number of things could have caused the drop, and the BCC mess is at the bottom of a good part of it.

"The dealers reported they did better than the Host or the VFCC, and that makes sense."

You're arguing against yourself here. So with a thousand less people at the con the Dealers made MORE than the Host or the VFCC. How in heck does that make sense in any way as far as your argument is concerned?

"The square footage of the Host and FEC are facts, not my opinion. The fact that 1,000 less people attended, and the FEC drew less dealers (taking up less space?) would explain all the open area, so I wouldn't brag about that either."

I wasn't bragging. I thought it was sad that all those tables in the main game room (and that was ALL I was talking about in my reply to J Thomas) weren't being used. But you were saying there was NO ROOM TO GROW at FEC. I was saying that yes, indeed there is. To the size of the much lauded "High Point at the Host"? Probably not. But we have no way of knowing if numbers at The Host between '09 and now would have stayed that high. I tend to doubt it-- '09 WAS the 25th Anniversary of the con, and the last one at The Host. I know the latter reason was why -I- went that year, and a number of my buddies as well. Same reason I went to the last Fall In at The Ike. I wouldn't have gone in either case if they were "regular" years.

"The truth is the FEC may be a nice/newer facility, but it does not mean we'll achieve our old numbers there."

Maybe not. But we could probably reach our overall average, with spikes here and there (both up and down) as we had before. Regardless, the BOD could decide to try another place in '014-- maybe even The Host. Then we can see if the numbers come shooting way back up as a number of you guys seem to think they will. Time will tell.

I suspect at least some of the dealers did better because FEC attracted some new people. That makes sense, otherwise it is hard to explain why the same old people suddenly bought more of the same stuff they have been looking at for years. In that regards, if FEC did attract new people, that is a win. Whether they will come back or not, or keep buying stuff, only time will tell.

I think all the empty tables is a shame too. HMGS does little to manage the games that go on, or even figure out how many they really need – even at the Host. There were some GMs complaining about the no-show rate – which is a common complaint after all the cons.

The last year at the Host was not the high point – the previous year was, IIRC. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that 99.9% of the attendees could have cared less about the 25th anniversary of HMGS, as they were either coming or not anyway.

I've been a proponent of putting the three cons on at different locations – more spead out, to reach more people. But the downside to that is it stresses the management staff if the facility isn't near them. Running cons at the Host became cookie cutter work, and that was why some BOD members proposed moving FI from the Ike to the Host – to make it easier and cheaper.

The problem for planning for 2014, you need to do it now, or as soon as possible. I don't care what facility you are going to, they book up. I'd see how the FEC did next year, but I sure would put down a deposit on the Host if I could, to cover my bet – if number of attendees is the goal, or find a new place.

The only thing I question is the sanity of people who object to holding the thing in Virginia because of "Southern Rabble Rousers" or that it's being held below the Mason-Dixon Line.

It's 2012, there's no reason for that nonsense.

I would have been at the FEC but the boss said the 25th wedding anniversary came first. I tend to listen to things like that. I can't go to The HOST, I can't risk it.

"To the size of the much lauded "High Point at the Host"? Probably not"

Oh my god, will you guys give it a rest trying to say the numbers aren't the numbers and 2+2 doesn't equal 4?

The three year average for the last three years at the Host is 3,495, only marginally less than 2009 attendance, which (25th anniversary or no) was off from 2008.

No matter how many times you guys say the numbers at the Host weren't bigger or Nascar did it or the dog ate your homework it is not going to change the fact that the Host drew bigger numbers.

C'mon, say it with me. The Host drew bigger numbers. See, it doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt anymore than when I say FCC is a basically a good facility and the offsite food choices rock.

You can actually have an opinion and even argue a point of view while still acknowledging facts, even ones that run counter to your point of view. Few positions are so unilaterally correct that they have no factors that argue against them.

One more time. The Host drew bigger numbers. It wasn't Nascar, it wasn't the dog, it wasn't evil mold-creatures from the Host kidnapping 1,000 would-be attendees. Fewer people saw FCC as a good or feasible location.

Conversely, there is no reason for those who think the location is a poor one to overdo the criticisms of FCC. That will just make you as foolish as the people turning the Host into a Twilight Zone episode with gross exaggerations and total fabrications about the facility. FCC is nice. The bathrooms are a problem, as is noise, but these should not be blown out of proportion. Other than the geography, which, imo, is poor, the facility is perfectly suitable.

Does anyone have the capability anymore to have a rational debate about something without turning into blues and greens outside the hippodrome? It's like listening to political ads in here. Reality doesn't seem to trouble most people when formulating their arguments.

"Host-supporters want to poison your drinking water!"

"FCC-supporters want the homeless to freeze to death in winter!"

Would an observation or two from somebody who:

(1) Is not American, but is an American resident

(2) Has attended Historicons in both in Lancaster and Fredericksburg

(3) Has worked as a volunteer and on a trade stand at those conventions, as well as playing games

be welcome, or does the fact that I have chosen to make my home south of the Mason-Dixon Line simply invalidate any observation I might wish to make as far as some of the participants are concerned?

The reason I ask is because there are a number of things which are simply not being addressed in this 'debate' and sometimes it is interesting to hear something from somebody who has…how shall I put it…slightly less baggage where certain American matters are concerned.

I will await individual invitations to participate from the 'loudest voices' before contributing further.

"Any dealers out there who did better than 2009?"

Ok, I'll bite.

My high water mark at Historicon while it was held at the Host was 2007; in 2009, the year everyone points to as the benchmark to which all future Historicons will be held to, I tanked, barely made a profit and was considering not doing Historicon again.

When they announced the move to Baltimore, that sealed it for me.

Then when the landing spot became the VFCC instead, I took a flyer and decided to go, my sales jumped the two years it was held there.

This past year, I crushed it, blowing away my 2009 number.

By a WIDE margin.

May have been 1000 or so less than 2009, but I'll take quality over quantity anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

The question was asked can the dealer hall grow? Yes it can, the far end had numerous demo gaming tables set up that could be used for additional dealer space, as well as the picnic area for people to sit down and eat lunch, those tables could be canned and used for dealer space.

Not to mention the fleamarket was on the other side of the curtain in the dealer hall, you could reduce it's size or move it out of that room and use the space for more dealers as well.

So, there is PLENTY of room for more dealers.

Mericanach;
No worries. Most folks here offer up their opinions, informed, unformed, formed square or not.

Yours is as good as anyone else, and being Irish, it probably has as good a story as anyone else's…

Eric

Speaking of everyone getting off facts, here are the Hcon numbers (yet again) from the AARs. Please note that 2008, not 2009 was the recent (if not all time) high attendance.

2011 – 2,958
2010 – 2,980
2009 – 3,565
2008 – 3,667
2007 – 3,272

If the preliminary FEC number is correct (2700), then that is 76% of that all time 2008 Host high.

I am glad to hear some dealers did well at FEC, that is heartening news, and good for the hobby.

By all means Mericanach, jump in. :-)