"Historicon Review" Topic

After reading the bloviation regarding alcohol at the Host and the VFCC by non-Pennsylvania residents, and a couple from Pennsy, I thought I'd pass on 47 PA Code Section 491 (2) and 505.4 (b), regarding BYOB, which applies to hotels, bars, clubs, yadda, yadda, yadda…

The Host and VFCC can allow a person to bring in their own beer, wine, and spirits, so long as those beverages were purchased in Pennsylvania and are not consumed after 2am or 3am, depending on what is stated on the license of the establishment.

So the Host and the VFCC weren't letting anything "slide".

How many of their minions are on "booze patrol" at 0301, well, I don't know. I'm in bed by then. Or getting up for work.

Carry on.

Eric

"Egads, mold? Time somebody got ahold of the health dept. up there and got that cleared up or the joint shut down."
Spoken like a true southerner.

Civil,

I was part of an organiztion which spit in the eye of the Cyclops, Gama and Origins, without being so offensive as to burn bridges, you weren't!

To the contrary you are so confrontational as to lose before you fight. You never managed a convention, yet you argue as if you are an expert. You never moved a convention, yet you presume to tell everyone what is best for Historicon and HMGS.

How sad.

Bob Coggins

triple Fox

Simple yes or no is what I am looking for-not excuses and such- just a yes or no please

If you'd read the thread you'd have had your answer. Both stated they would be going next year. What is your point?

Civil says:

I have said positive things about FCC as well, but none of that changes the fact that the con is bleeding attendance.

Ratisbon counters with:

You never managed a convention, yet you argue as if you are an expert. You never moved a convention, yet you presume to tell everyone what is best for Historicon and HMGS.

Brilliant reasoning here, Bob. See if I have this straight: Civil has to manage or move a convention, in order to be able to state that Historicon attendance is dropping? Is that right?

To the contrary you are so confrontational as to lose before you fight.

On the contrary, Civil has been…..quite civil, NOT confrontational, and his arguments are well reasoned and easy to follow.

Yours, on the other hand………

I love how all the people who a few years ago were passionately defending the Host as being A-OK Just Fine, are now calling it a dump.

Back when many of us complained about how nasty the Host had become, we were the Precious Princesses, remember that?

Now all of a sudden, Perish the Thought of returning to that Dump!

Either way, I think I'm done with Historicon. Carry on.

>"Egads, mold? Time somebody got ahold of the health dept. up there and got that cleared up or the joint shut down."
Spoken like a true southerner.

'Cept I was born and raised in Ohio. Not too much "true southerner" about that.

Meh

"To the contrary you are so confrontational as to lose before you fight. You never managed a convention, yet you argue as if you are an expert. You never moved a convention, yet you presume to tell everyone what is best for Historicon and HMGS."

Ok, Bob. First off, I am not trying to be confrontational. Admittedly, some factual posts can be read as terse since in this medium we do not hear tone. But I do not think I am being confrontational very often. I am discussing and debating, so when I feel someone posts something inaccurate I do call them on it. To be honest, the only one I feel I have been confrontational with is you, and to the extent that I have been so it is because you are also so. I am have also occasionally made some strong comments about the BOD, but frankly I consider that their conduct has been quite bad the last four years. Obviously, others can disagree.

I am not on here trying to destroy Hcon. I went to FCC this year and, assuming no real world issues keep me away, I will go next year. What I cannot do is convince most of my friends to go.

I do find it frustrating when people seem to take up a contrary position simply because they like FCC. Again, I didn't dislike FCC. In fact, other than the geography (and the food in the center and dirty bathrooms), I liked it and gave it a pretty good review and said I would go back.

But I also pointed out that attendance has nosedived. I also noted that the recession was at its worst during 2009, the year when Hcon was last at the Host, which undermines the claims that FCC's low attendance (relative to the Host) is due to the economy. The facts simply do not support that assertion. It doesn't mean FCC is horrible; it doesn't mean there are no good factors about it. But it does mean that a lot of regular attendees would not go there.

Why is there such a need to be black and white about subjects that are, by their very nature, complex. I think FCC is a perfectly satisfactory facility for Historicon EXCEPT it is an an area that is poorly located demographically for the traditional attendee base, and said attendees have stayed away. With VFCC we at least had a variable data point – it was held on a less desirable weekend.

I haven't said FCC is a putrid dump and terrible in every way just because I think it is a bad location for Hcon. I said good things and bad. Why is it that almost everyone who likes the facility has to contort their arguments to any extent just to refute any negative? Origins, Gencon, and Havoc are not comparable, but the NFL and Nascar are? Or let's blame it on the economy in spite of the fact that every economic indicator there is was worse in 2009. Let's ignore that though, and say, "it's the economy."

The anti-Host babble is also overblown and ludicrous. The facility is an old, rundown hotel. But it served our needs for a long time, and could have continued to do so. But we keep hearing about people needing shots and killer mold and all sorts of other nonsense. If I hadn't stayed in the place maybe 40 times I might take some of it seriously, but most of it is just silly.

Lastly, Bob, though I know you would never let a lack of facts stop you from making an assertion, while I may not have run an HMGS convention, I was a partner for four years in a company that held about 100 events at convention centers and hotels across the country. We had a meetings staff, so I did not directly negotiate and work with the hotels, but I do have considerable familiarity with the goings on of how they operate. We had demographic studies and data that showed us just how many people we'd lose if we moved an event half an hour farther away or an hour, etc.

Some of my posts during the BCC debacle stated this, along with lists of operational items that were clearly not being considered. None of that mattered, of course, because everyone counseling caution on BCC was shouted down.

So:

1. I actually know more than you think about how big events are run.

and

2. You don't have to know anything at all about running and event to understand that a quarter of your attendees have bailed.

So put up or shut up, civildisobedience. Put on your own con at the Host at the same time as Historicon, and we'll see which one people go to.

^No. The Southerners should be the ones to have to put up the "competing convention".

Historicon south is a travesty, I hope that this is realized soon.

"Simple yes or no is what I am looking for-not excuses and such- just a yes or no please"

Fox Fox Fox,

"Yes or no Please" Oldest and least logical trick in the book and not acceptable on any level in an intelligent conversation.

Civil attended and I assume you did too. He posted a balanced and not totally negative review on FEC. What you have however done is 1. Make the Assumption that the relative "poshness" of a site makes it more attractive rather than an unnecessary an off target added expense for the Convention site. For instance the relatively new site in Oakes,Pa was rejected for the same reasons (No attached hotel etc.) that are being cited as making FEC a problem.

You have referred to the Host as a Dump.

The host is older but not a dump by any means. The host also treats us like Guests 24/7 gaming is available. I understand that by 10 or 11 pm Sat. only Three games (Including pick up games) were being run in the main room. This count includes the Venerable Midnight Massacre that had to be started at 10pm due to a stated closing of the hall at 1:00am.

The after dinner gatherings of friends and colleagues to get in another game before leaving on Sunday is a tangible but non accounted for aspect of our cons. Ideas are shared and even last minute purchased for Sunday morning are decided on at this time. Old Friends are able to catch up and new friends made.

One of our regulars who attended and ran several games told me that many games were cancelled and not many pick up games ensued to take their place

A con that has fallen to the point where almost everyone has ended their real participation by 10 or 11 pm on Saturday night has failed in its true purpose.

So to be frank I will rather game in a manly site that is not as upscale as some might like than have a "dealer trade show" in a Newer Facility that does not cater to our needs.

Those of the membership who want facials and pedicures can get them off site.

Gil

"I was part of an organiztion which spit in the eye of the Cyclops, Gama and Origins, without being so offensive as to burn bridges, you weren't! "---- Bob Coggins

"Your old road is
Rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'." ---Bob Dylan

"So put up or shut up, civildisobedience. Put on your own con at the Host at the same time as Historicon, and we'll see which one people go to"

Are you attempting to stifle debate or try to disenfranchise a person who is just as entitled to his opinion as yours. The logic is not there either. I'd hope you would re read your post and reconsider it.

By the way there are many alternate gaming venues developing for the summer months and there will be more next year whether in Lancaster or other sites, whether one day or weekend affairs. HCon is a product and an event one that the BOD has made less attractive to a large and Core constituency one that for the most part will remain silent and when it walks will walk with its feet and wallets. Some of us already have from Historicon. Sad as that may be it is true. Not attending in addition to saving me significant treasure allowed me to attend an event in Lancaster where I got in more games than I normally do at an HMGS con. (Where I tend to run pick up games for friends and their friends who often then become my friends.) I also had more time and money to spend on NJCon and got in a good day of Gaming on the Saturday of Historicon at a Mall in PA. So to answer your question folks are already going to alternate gaming venues. Some folks will go on to HCon other's like myself will stay away until I feel that the BOD is actually responsive to its membership.

As far as the health of the Con in at FEC, I have also been told by attendees that there were numerous (more than the usual) cancelled games which lead most game masters who were there to have full or even overfull games. In addition one attendee I talked to told me that 60% of the games he signed up for were cancelled. Anecdotal yes but something that should be taken into account. Perhaps the BOD moved the con away from its base of Game Master Support.

Gil Bates

I'll be at both Fall In and Cold Wars and while the Host is not a great value for the dollar or even a legitimate mid-level accomodation, it works for our purposes at those times of year.

Historicon was always my least favorite con and the one I would skip more often than not but it was still a good time at both the Host and the VFCC and given time, and a little consistency, may begin a recovery in numbers but, without stability we will never know and as with any facility, without experience we will be constantly learning how to fix problems at the place we just left.

For those talking about the Ike and Fall In, the Ike was more expensive by far than the Host for the organization (nearly twice), showed zero inclination to work with us on food, amenities and space issues and if you haven't been by lately, having failed to win the casino license the owners have put zero dollars into upkeep and the place is infinitly nastier than the worst opinions of the harshest critics of the Host.

Gil & Bowman – Thanks for the common sense. Greatly appreciated.

Herr – Maybe you should "put up or shut up." Convince the 950 lost gamers to come to FCC or stop pimping for the place.

Wow, did this take allot of reading. Civil, if nobody has yet said it, thank you for your honest assessment of the FCC. You're a gentleman and a scholar and an asset to the war gaming community.

Just an alternative perception on games this year I had no cancelled games (unlike last two years at VFCC) and I managed to get into a couple of games by just turning up.

Some of the games I had signed up for people did not turn up and were run with less players….

So maybe I was lucky or maybe the chap who had games cancelled was unlucky….

Perhaps is perhaps and until it is measured properly then I would guess the number of games cancelled is hearsay?

Why don't you start a thread to see how many people had cancelled games. I talked to people who had no cancelled games and some people said it was no worse than normal years.

;)

This whole idea of 950 "lost gamers due to location" is based upon supposition and unless you have had it in black and white that they did not attend due to the new location it is all supposition not fact.

The trouble is that if this is bandied about as fact then people will believe it. That is the problem with minorities who shout loud and twist words and create false facts by saying they speak for 950 people…

The only fact is that attendance is less than previous years and why that is only those 950 people know (if you could even prove it was regulars!!) and a few people on here who want to speak for them to serve their own agenda is what is happening here.

Evidence would be a petition with 950 unique (real) people signed up saying they want a change. There are plenty of web sites where you can set up a petition. That perhaps would be a constructive way to influence the BOD?

holien,

It is not supposition. It is subtraction. 950 people fewer people attended the convention that did at the last Host Hcon. That is an incontrovertible fact.

The move is the only reasonable data point presented as an explanation. Suggest another valid one and we can debate it.

366,

Thanks! Much appreciated.

holien,

Just to clarify, I never said I speak for 950 people; I said 950 people stayed away from FCC. You are the one twisting words. I do not speak for anyone but myself, but I can quote a fact. The numbers aren't mine; they are HMGS's

Well, as one of the sainted 950, I can tell you that the new location had absolutely NOTHING to do with my not attending. Real life intervened with a vengence (thanks to the Great Recession). So the whiners (CD, CC, et al) will have to amend their 'non-show due to location' total by at least one…

And as for this being a 'debate'; more like the whining of a handful of spoiled brats who didn't get their way. The solution is real simple: You don't like the new digs, then don't go. Find your con to attend and be happy.

@ Coastal2…LOL…Big thumbs up!

As another of the "Sainted 950", I know that I and at least four others from Texas who did not go this year, were not in the least influenced by the location. I had two other vacations that took precedence. The others were influenced by other real life interferences.

Maybe we should do a survey of why the "Sainted 950" didn't go this year.

15 from Albany were effected by the move. I love H-Con and GM'd large games many times but the distance seemed a bit much. I would like to attend next year but the move and economy combined made attending this year impossible. The last few years at the VFCC my brother and I made it by on a shoe-string budget. The move broke the shoelace. Many of my fellow Capital District war-game buddies are older and I don't believe they will make the trip to Fredricksburg. Cold Wars now looks like the convention that we will attend as a group.

I know 15 doesn't sound like much and maybe no one missed my brother's and my games (our pick-up games are also fun but they didn't start till after 11:00). I don't think Civil is out of line or nuts. He loves the convention and wants what's best in his opinion. The same way the people do who are arguing against him. He is making a valid point about attendance. If the FCC can grow attendance I'm sure he'd be satisfied to say he was wrong and glad that H-Con survived and began to grow again.

Some of us were quite a bit put off by "the next levelers" who were convinced that this could become an international convention and grow considerably. Every desicion they made seemed to either loose money or hurt attendance. I dropped my membership three years ago because I felt it had gotten out of hand and some of the people had let ego get in the way of what was best for the orginization. I still attended both H-Cons at Valley Forge and ran big showcase games. I love many of the HMGS people and consider them my friends. I believe in HMGS's mission of strengthening the hobby and support it with a youth gaming club here in Albany (Historical Only). I want to see the orginization grow and strengthen.

I hope everything works out. I just don't understand why people think Civil's arguments are unbased anger. He is making one point and one point only. The move has hurt attendance. Ok, maybee the 950 were not all effected but many were. I think that next year will be the year to have a serious debate. lets see what FCC can do with growth next year. No one wants to see HMGS fail, well at least I don't. I'll support them this March.

Marvin E. Veeder
and
James Veeder

Costal2 and JDPInTex

I hear the sunsets in San Diego are lovely and that its not all that far a Drive from Texas.

"Find your con to attend and be happy" We had our con and were happy until a minority of the membership got control of the BOD and moved it.

Those of us who unhappy with the move have every right to both express that as well as the reasons therefor. If "not getting our way" means that they moved the con weakened the organization and look to continue doing so, then I agree that we did not get our way.

If you like the new location and the move go ahead and support it. If you don't say that also. If you read the initial post you will see a balanced review by Civildisobediance. The unbalanced 100% positive reviews that were offered in response to it, the sometimes shrill cries of "Sabotage" and other attacks caused some of us to weigh in and the thread evolved to a discussion of the relative benefits of the location options.

I for one know that our group alone had 12 people who are regulars at the con who saw no attraction in the new location and stayed home. Those who run games saw it as too long to travel with all their supplies and those few who often do day trips were not going to drive 5 hours to a new location. So yes a good percentage of the regulars whatever their number was due to the new location. And many of us did chose to attend other gaming events with Money and vacation time that the BOD of HMGS apparently no longer values. The problem is if you lose any significant percentage of Regulars due to the move it is bad for HMGS there is nothing saintly about it 95 are too many to lose to the move if its 950 that is very sad and tragic.

Marvin and James,

Thanks for running games all these years. The pick up games and some of the Tournament stuff that I and my friends have run in the past is a big part of the Con for me. Would love to see you guys at Fall In too.

I will be at Fall In and Cold Wars as always. In the arms of the loving and some say Dumpy Host that accommodates us our needs our late night gaming and an occasional cooler of beers for our friends . There will be games and friends and warmth and no real agenda to be had.

This is very interesting. I've never seen the value of labeling people as whiners, crybabies, etc. It just doesn't do anything to unite people.

Civil gave what appeared to be a balanced opinion. I have complete respect for that. For those that think the FCC is amazing and perfect – I respect that as well. But that should never be a green light to battle it out because there is a difference of opinion.

There appears to be various reasons why people didn't attend. For whatever the reason, I think everyone agrees that the convention lost roughly 950 people from the days at the Host.

What might be beneficial is if the leaders of HMGS sat down specifically with the people who did not attend and ask why. Maybe a meeting at Fall In and Cold Wars where people could voice their opinions without judgement? HMGS needs to find ways to bring people together, not divide them.

"Well, as one of the sainted 950, I can tell you that the new location had absolutely NOTHING to do with my not attending. Real life intervened with a vengence (thanks to the Great Recession). So the whiners (CD, CC, et al) will have to amend their 'non-show due to location' total by at least one…"

Actually, that is not statistically correct. Every year there are some people who cannot go simply because they have real world commitments, work, etc. Barring an external stimulus, in a sampling this size one would expect these numbers to be fairly consistent. In other words, some people who were unable to attend in 2009 for personal reasons probably did attend this year.

There were 950 fewer net attendees. This should factor out those with external reasons for not attending.

James and Martin – Thanks for the comments. I also have generally run 2-3 games at every convention.

I almost didn't go, because no one I knew was going, and I didn't feel like driving down the Fredericksburg if it was just me. At the last minute, one friend decided to go, so we went down Thursday night and stayed until Saturday night. We had a third friend ready to go as well, but he needed to be at an appointment Friday. If the thing had been in Lancaster (about 2:45 for us) he would have come down, driven home for the meeting, and come back. Or he would have come down Friday night. But with the event 6 hours away it didn't make sense, so he didn't end up going.

I think the FCC shills think everyone who doesn't go is holding their breath and throwing some sort of fit. But the truth is, the thing is further from the attendee base, which means that basic demographics and economics apply. If you move soemthing from a greater to a lesser concentration of potential attendee then you are going to lose people.

Bowman,

If you managed an event you'd understand attendance fluctuates based on numerous factors, none of which necessarily have a lot to do with the facility or location. You'd know that when an event is moved it tends to lose attendance. It did so when we moved to Harrisburg and when we moved to the Host; you can check with Pat Condray for the figures.

Attendance counts for gaming conventions are notoriously unreliable because from year-to-year how the count is conducted changes. Some count staff and some count dealers and others don't. Some conventions such as Gencon and Origins count a weekend pass as 3 to 4 attendees. One year Origins counted the turnstile numbers at the entrance to the dealer's room so that a gamer who entered the dealer's room 10 times was counted 10 times for the purpose of attendance. Finally, n some years convention mangers simply make up the count based on a guess.

As someone said there are lies, damned lied and statistics and for convention it is a mistake to judge success on the statistic of attendance. In the end the count is an approximation dependent on the criteria of the managers.

So, given the variability of the criteria for counting, it is beyond me how anyone can state as an unchallangeable fact that 950 individuals did not attend and then conclude they did not attend because of the location.

This is especially so as attendance figures at Origins and Gencon, however they count, over a 10 year period have fluctuated by thousands and recently are "off," even though they have not moved.

So, how do you judge a convention if not by attendance? First, you listen to the dealers. Contented dealers are an indication of good sales and good sales are an indication of good attendance. Second, you listen to the attendees and by a very large majority they were satisfied. Third you look at hotel rooms rented and how quickly they were reserved. Lots of room nights quickly reserved. Finally, you determine whether on not the convention made money. For Historicon we will find out soon enough.

While I see no evidence that Historicon is "bleeding" attendance, Civil and a few others claim 950 persons did not attend because of Historicon's location. If that is as claimed then there is an opportunity for a rival group to hold a convention at the Host in competition with Historicon.

I WAS AT THE HOST TODAY (August 5), to visit the WBC convention. Don Greenwood who manages the convention told me the hotel had no A/C in the gaming areas for 4/5 days, punctuated by occasional unpredictable ceiling warterfalls as the system slowly collapsed.

While the Host eventually was able to patch-up the antiquated A/C system, it does not intend to replace it because it is too expensive, given the age of the hotel.

Though friends who stayed at the hotel did not complain of mold, they did complain of less than adequate housekeeping in the guest rooms, the deteriorating quality of the food and the increasing costs of alcohol and room rentals.

The board wargamers are now looking for another facility.

So Bowman and Civil, if the proof is in your statistical claims, host a rival convention at the Host or at any other outdated and aging facility in central PA or Jersey and show me your dealers and the 950 attendees.

I won't hold my breath.

Bob Coggins

ps: At the Host I estimate a significant percentage of attendees sneak-in, using forged badges or one badge for a number of gamers. And not many people know that.

Some people have posted that the reason they didn't attend was due to the move away from the Host. Others have stated that they didn't attend because of a bad economy. This leads me to believe that it is a combination of these two factors, and perhaps other factors as well, that has led to a decline in attendance. That you completely disregard the bad economy arguments and state that it is only the move from the Host which has driven attendance down leads me to think that your argument is absolute bunkum.

I posted this in the other thread but I will post it here as well.

"The median annual household income in June 2012 can be put into broader perspective by a comparison with previous levels of household income dating back to the start of the last decade. The June 2012 median annual household income of $50,964 USD was 4.8 percent lower than the median of $53,508 USD in June 2009, the end of the recent recession and beginning of the "economic recovery." The June 2012 median was 7.2 percent lower than the median of $54,916 USD in December 2007, the beginning month of the recession that occurred more than four years ago. And the June 2012 median was 8.1 percent lower than the median of $55,470 USD in January 2000, the beginning of this statistical series. These comparisons demonstrate how significantly real median annual household income has fallen over the past decade, and how much ground needs to be recovered to return to income levels that existed more than 10 years ago."

This quote was taken from the latest Sentier Research report. The full report can be seen here.
link

"Actually, that is not statistically correct. Every year there are some people who cannot go simply because they have real world commitments, work, etc. Barring an external stimulus, in a sampling this size one would expect these numbers to be fairly consistent. In other words, some people who were unable to attend in 2009 for personal reasons probably did attend this year."

"There are lies, damned lies and statistics" as my stats prof used to say….

Face it, there is NO WAY you can determine the cause of the attendance fall off, given the known data. The factors can range from location, economics (we are in the 5th year of a major down turn, BTW), family concerns, timing to the phases of the moon. In other words, as varied as the individuals who didn't attend. So to blithely claim that location is the culprit is just flat out WRONG.

CD, you have never liked the move from your blessed Host and have made it your private hobby horse to ride ever since the BCC fiasco. And in the face of every argument to the contrary, have used every possible straw man argument to support your whining and continue to rail against the BOD for heinous crimes and misdemeanors at every turn. Frankly, your posts have devolved to the same, repetative non-stop screech.

You know, you might just give the new location a chance. It might surprise you…..

"If you managed an event you'd understand attendance fluctuates based on numerous factors, none of which necessarily have a lot to do with the facility or location. You'd know that when an event is moved it tends to lose attendance. It did so when we moved to Harrisburg and when we moved to the Host; you can check with Pat Condray for the figures."

As I told you, I was involved in the management of over 100 events (thought not wargame conventions). As these were business ventures, we were extremely concerned with attendee behavior patterns. Location, population density, proximity to past attendees, traffic patterns, minute changes in cost or driving time, all affect attendance. You act as if attendees are duty bound to go wherever the HMGS board tells them. The real world does not work that way. Also, I'm pretty sure Pat posted that there was no loss going from Harrisburg to Lancaster. That was not a move with significant demographic implications. If there was a loss coming from Maryland, then it is not surprising that attendance was lost.

"Attendance counts for gaming conventions are notoriously unreliable because from year-to-year how the count is conducted changes. Some count staff and some count dealers and others don't. Some conventions such as Gencon and Origins count a weekend pass as 3 to 4 attendees. One year Origins counted the turnstile numbers at the entrance to the dealer's room so that a gamer who entered the dealer's room 10 times was counted 10 times for the purpose of attendance. Finally, n some years convention mangers simply make up the count based on a guess."

What does this even mean? If you are suggesting that counting methods are inaccurate that proves nothing at all. That is as likely to mean that FCC lost even more people as it is to suggest it gained ground. Unless you can focus the points of inaccuracy this is just more "pump up FCC at all costs" rhetoric. Facts, Bob, try some facts.

"As someone said there are lies, damned lied and statistics and for convention it is a mistake to judge success on the statistic of attendance. In the end the count is an approximation dependent on the criteria of the managers."

Same event, same managers. Again, presumably inaccuracy in counting averages out.

"So, given the variability of the criteria for counting, it is beyond me how anyone can state as an unchallangeable fact that 950 individuals did not attend and then conclude they did not attend because of the location."

I suppose you can challenge any fact that you want. These are the facts as I see them.

1. 950 fewer people went than did in 2009.
2. Many people have voiced displeasure with the move.
3. Multiple people did so tonight on this board, and the TMP conventions board hardly reaches every gamer.
4. The weekend was the same, unlike at VFCC.
5. The economy was the same or better by virtually every measurable standard (a preponderance if not every one).
6. It is less centered on the demographic map of HMGS members. Basic demographics and economics states that if you move something further, make it more difficult to attend, or make it more costly, fewer people will go.

So, no, it is not absolutely certain that the drop off was because of the move. It is not absolutely certain the Earth is orbiting the sun, I suppose.

"CD, you have never liked the move from your blessed Host and have made it your private hobby horse to ride ever since the BCC fiasco. And in the face of every argument to the contrary, have used every possible straw man argument to support your whining and continue to rail against the BOD for heinous crimes and misdemeanors at every turn. Frankly, your posts have devolved to the same, repetative non-stop screech.

You know, you might just give the new location a chance. It might surprise you….."

I don't think the Host is a nice hotel. If you've read the posts that you so deride, you would see that I have called it a dump many times. I have also noted that it is the only affordable facility within the optimum market area, an assertion that is so far totally supported by post-move events.

I suppose I have ended up defending the Host from the constant absurd attacks by the next-levellers and FCC shills. Killer toxic mold, emergency doctor visits from Host-borne diseases. I'm waiting for someone to come on here and say there are body snatchers camped out in the basement stealing gamers at night for their hideous purposes. If you compiled some of the posts by the Host-haters it would be the most amusing combination of insanity and prissy princess nonsense. You'd think in a hobby with such a delicate set of sensibilities for accommodations that more people would bathe regularly.

I also love how a massive drop in attendance is a straw man argument. It must be great to be so devoted to shilling a place that you don't need to pay attention to any facts.

Funny thing…again, if you'd read my posts you are complaining about you'd see I didn't dislike the place. The food was garbage and the bathrooms disgusting, but otherwise I thought it was a good facility, and I have said so at least ten times. What I did not do is shill relentlessly and argue for the sake of arguing against every fact presented that wasn't cheerleading for FCC.

Funny thing, though…the fact that I basically liked the place does not change the fact that attendance is down 950 from the last Host event.

But since I'm in that pathetic 2,700 number, it ain't my fault. Though I guess actually paying attention to the drop is.

I revise my analysis. Everyone in their right mind would go to FCC, therefore I now assume it is an incontrovertible fact that everyone wanted to go, but 950 people had their dog eat their homework. Happy? Can I be one of the shills now and sit at the cool kids' table?

Civil, there are times in life where a man stands up and expresses his opinion. It's easy for others to throw stones and argue. It's much harder to sit down with someone and find a middle ground that everyone can agree on.

For the sake of HMGS, I hope they're savvy enough to try and find a middle ground.

Oh, for the record, you're already one of the cool kids ;)

Bob, thanks for your reply. A few comments, if I may:

If you managed an event you'd understand attendance fluctuates based on numerous factors, none of which necessarily have a lot to do with the facility or location. You'd know that when an event is moved it tends to lose attendance.

If you read Civils entries, you'll see that you are making his point. Also why the insistence that someone needs to "manage an event" in order to understand that attendance has gone down since 2009?

So, how do you judge a convention if not by attendance? First, you listen to the dealers. Contented dealers are an indication of good sales and good sales are an indication of good attendance. Second, you listen to the attendees and by a very large majority they were satisfied. Third you look at hotel rooms rented and how quickly they were reserved. Lots of room nights quickly reserved. Finally, you determine whether on not the convention made money. For Historicon we will find out soon enough.

I respectfully disagree. If 50 people showed up to Historicon and all of them loved it, would you call that a success? By the way, Historicon sold out the Host every year for the last decade. Same with Cold Wars (I'm not sure about Fall-in)

While the Host eventually was able to patch-up the antiquated A/C system, it does not intend to replace it because it is too expensive, given the age of the hotel.

Granted, can't argue with you there. But to be fair, there were more than a few complaints about the AC at the FCC. I'll let that slide because it was very hot and humid during Historicon this year.

As someone said there are lies, damned lied and statistics……."

Mark Twain? I believe in context he was being facetious.

So, given the variability of the criteria for counting, it is beyond me how anyone can state as an unchallangeable fact that 950 individuals did not attend and then conclude they did not attend because of the location.

But that wasn't said. The drop occurred during the 2 moves since leaving the Host. That's what Civil is saying. Personally, I didn't go because of the location. Nothing wrong with F'burg, except that it adds another 6 hours to an already tedious drive. I'm already booked for 2013.

Though friends who stayed at the hotel did not complain of mold, they did complain of less than adequate housekeeping in the guest rooms, the deteriorating quality of the food and the increasing costs of alcohol and room rentals.

No killer mold needing massive antibiotics? (anyone with a rudimentary understanding of biology should get a chuckle from that). I must of had the Presidential Suite at the Host every time I've been there. No mold issues (as an asthmatic I'm particularly sensitive to mold) nor housekeeping issues ever. The only food I've eaten at the Host is the buffet breakfast (adequate) and the roast pig (good). Not an issue for me. As for booze, I buy my beer at the place next to Wang's Chinese restaurant, a 1 minute drive from the Host. Plus the Host has the most liberal attitude towards drinking. As far as room rentals go, the Host is cheaper than my room that I gave up in 2012 and the one I booked in 2013 at F'burg.

ps: At the Host I estimate a significant percentage of attendees sneak-in, using forged badges or one badge for a number of gamers. And not many people know that.

I'll have to take your word for it, Bob. That was a problem at the Host, but not at the Ike, the VFCC, nor the FCC? Isn't that an HMGS problem, that should be looked at for Fall-In?

The board wargamers are now looking for another facility.

Irrelevant to us. Plus, the Host is booked up all summer, according to the HMGS.

So Bowman and Civil, if the proof is in your statistical claims, host a rival convention at the Host or at any other outdated and aging facility in central PA or Jersey and show me your dealers and the 950 attendees.

That old canard again, Bob? Really?

My ability or inability to host a rival convention has absolutely no bearing on the fact that attendance has slipped since 2009. I'm sorry that pointing that out that fact makes me a "whiner" to people who have poor reading comprehension. I'm also sorry you don't see that, Bob.

Civil, there are times in life where a man stands up and expresses his opinion. It's easy for others to throw stones and argue. It's much harder to sit down with someone and find a middle ground that everyone can agree on.

For the sake of HMGS, I hope they're savvy enough to try and find a middle ground.

Well said. It is surprising how much hostility is generated through an inherent intolerance to opinions other than one's own. And when facts are introduced, the name calling and ad hominem attacks come out! I guess the inclusive "big tent" attitude has died out. Shame.

I'd say that the people whom the people who want Historicon to return to the Host need to convice are NOT the ones posting on here in favor of the FEC, but the HMGS Board! As much as I might love or hate that location, or the Host for that matter, it matters not a bit in the grand scheme of things unless I happen to be on the HMGS Board, which I am not, thankfully.

Given that attendance has dropped since 2009, due to changes in location/timing and the economy (I really see no other reasons), the real question everyone should be asking is what is going to be done in the future (beyond 2014). Assuming of course that the 2012 H-con was profitable.

Does HMGS expand advertising to attract more attendees? Address Vendor concerns on the table vs booth issue? Deal with the FEC on the issues raised by the many posters of this thread? Anything else?

OR does HMGS change the location (possibly the timing as well) yet again hoping to increase attendance?

366 & Bowman,

Again, your comments are appreciated. Sometimes I think I must have hallucinated when I posted after I read some of the replies. I'm thinking, when did I say that?

It is almost like religious zealotry. Anyone posting a fact damaging to our point of view must be shouted down or branded a kook.

I consider it a self-evident fact that the attendance has dropped substantially since we left the Host. Now, it is possible that this is a startling coincidence, but basic common sense, backed up by a significant amount of anecdotal evidence (I know at least 40 regular attendees who did not go…all members of two gaming groups I frequent, and all people who have been to 90% of the cons).

The inability to acknowledge facts that run counter in any way to you own point of view is a sad thing. Particularly since, for the most part, those of us arguing that the move has been harmful to attendance are not screaming that every good point about FCC is somehow invalid.

Then, of course, there are the people who post complaining about the existence of the debate (on a message board thread that is clearly labeled and that they have to seek out to find). You'd think we were spamming these guys' mailboxes or something.

It is all very sad.

Cd,

Given that the drop from 2009 to 2010 was in the neighborhood of 700 (I know, it was the weekend after July 4th) and from 2011 to 2012 roughly 200, I'd attribute the overall drop to a number of factors. Those would be, according to me:

1. Two Changes of Location in 3 years
2. Residual hard feelings toward HMGS from the attendees/members over the initial attempted move from the Host to Baltimore
3. Increased admission prices and vendor prices
4. Move further South away from where many of the prior attendees live
5. New site jitters (I had these about the VFCC and didn't run any games there the first year.
6. Concern that the FEC is just a fall back plan for the "Next Leverers"

– Host Fanboi and FEC Shill

I guess the inclusive "big tent" attitude has died out. Shame."

Bowman

Unfortunately I am beginning to agree with you. The Big Tent is not popular with those who would rather be in what they consider a "nicer facility" than those who just want to be with their friends and game. Look around you at any of our cons. We (myself excepted of course) are not the "Beautiful People". The Host was a site that allowed us to gather freely and accommodated us. It was the proverbial big tent for us. Then those who did not like it wanted to become an international Convention with walk in traffic excessive seminars and significantly higher upfront costs. Some even wanted to drink cognac on in the Penthouse overlooking Baltimore Harbor. In the Fall out we still lost our place at the Host.

When Historicon Lost the Host, it lost its soul. And this soulless Show with its huge hall not amenable to comfortable gaming (Unless thousands are spent on carpets and sound deadening and maybe new toilet facilities) is all that is presented to us as a "shut up and take it or leave it" option. Well I've "left it". Or treated like Gorean slave girls and told that if we give it a chance eventually we will get used to it and start to like it.

In the end it is all of our faults though as we weren't forced out of the "Big Tent" we let a few who knew how a small minority of a largely complacent organization can grab power and steal the Con away.

What needs to be done is a reform of the way HMGS operates. Online elections to encourage participation. More online polling of the membership. Reduced accounting costs and no free rooms for anyone except maybe Napoleon, Saladin, Rommel and Robert E. Lee (MacArthur has to pay or else he will keep coming back for more). and the meetings have to be more transparent and accessible to the members. Then maybe, just maybe we will start to own this organization again.

Civil, I really think the issue is you've hit a nerve. The people attacking you wanted the FCC to be the end all – be all of Historicon. When someone comes on here and gives a balanced, honest opinion there appears to be a chink in the armor. Don't take it personally.

Take heart – I think there's allot of people that want to shake your hand.

Ya know Civil I've given you cudos on your initial review and other points so I dont think I personaly have been unfair to you . You have not called for a boycott etc. and just seem to think Hcon would be better served back in Pa. somewhere . Here's a fact for you : Lets just say you do indeed represent with your facts/opinions some percentange 0f the 950 folks that did not show . That would mean you represent roughtly around 25% of the before mentioned . That I'm afraid on any calcutaor is a simple "MINORITY" .

But how many people that attentended the FCC would go back to a show farther North? In that case your thinking is flawed. Would there be more people willing to attend a show in PA, Northern Maryland or Southern Jersey overall? Don't tell me that everyone who attended FCC would be upset with a move and not attend the show if it moved farther north. In fact I don't think that number would come close to 950 based on the membership map. Thats just my guess, I'm not a statistician or an anylist but my assumption seems reasonable.

Civil and Gil,

I would love to attend Fall-In but my wife and I are expecting oue second child. I have to be ready to teach the baby how to undercoat in order to finish painting my 1805 Austrians. I love hosting games, being with people and rolling dice. My brother and I will be hosting our 28mm New Brunswick 1777 game at Cold Wars and we will put on 15mm Bussaco 1810 as a pickup game. Come by and have a Yuengling and play or just chat.

To all who have posted,

We all do this because we love it. I am looking at things pragmatically and I hope my posts came out that way. I have no agenda other than what might be best for the con. Most arguments that are pro FCC are ignoring a major concern. I said it before, the FCC deserves another chance. According to those that did a review (that wasn't fanatical)the place has possibilities. Attendance should be a concern, if it stays stagnant or decreases it has to move. I'm not rooting for one side or the other. I just see the facts and know that there have been some disaterious desicions made in the recent past that keep some, including me, very skeptical of the motives and processes.

coolyork,

Trust me, I don't claim to represent anyone except myself. The rest are just observations.

Yes, 950 is a minority, though that doesn't mean everyone who went thinks the move is a good idea. In fact, I'm not in the 950 myself. I did go, and will go again unless external factors stop me.

It also doesn't sit well with me that an awful lot of people who have gone to this thing for many years and helped make it what it was have been so readily discarded. Yes, I suppose they could go to Fredericksburg, but I do think that they were treated poorly.

Wow, 11 pages! I wonder if we will got to 26 or 28?

I have no intention of commenting on this further but will just use the space to make a contact.

Gil Bates. Could you please give me a post at my e-mail at sigurd@eclipse.net. I need to ask you a question on "The Weekend."

Civil Disobedience. Could you please give me a post at my e-mail at sigurd@eclipse.net. I need to ask you a question on something you wrote which is tangential to this discussion.

CD so when you say in the other thread

"There are also almost a thousand attendees who have the opposite view…"

That is not you speaking for those people? Well forgive me for thinking you were.

You have no idea of their views unless you have spoken to all of them?

:)

holien,

I have stated repeatedly that I think the reason for this loss was the move, so it is self-evident that I think they feel that way. I was not claiming the represent these people.

The words you are so closely parsing, however, were simply a figure of speech. Were these legal proceedings, I might have been better served by saying, "There are almost a thousand fewer attendees, and it seems highly likely from the available evidence that this is the result of the move and new location's geography." Thinking foolishly that this was a message board, I spoke conversationally.

Better?

;)

Holien,

One thing that hasn't been brought up is that while many opposed to the move stayed away, a good number of folks came to the con despite their dislike of the move as well as a good number of attendees who are ambivalent as to where the con is. Just because one attended does not speak as to whether they thought the site was better than the Host.

Nor does the pro/anti FCC or pro/anti Host dicussion on this board in anyway reflect the majority of the members of HMGS. Only 153 member voted in the elections recently held for BOD very few even ran as was pointed out in the dicussion above. The Vast majority is silent. The Majority never voiced any objections to the location at the Host only a vocal minority did. The Majority is not speaking out in favor or against the FCC or the Host. It is silent non involved except to show up whether in Lancaster/Valley Forge or Fredericksburg.

The bottom line is that the Host is Cheaper and fully adequate for our needs. It is more Centrally located to the masses and a hub of highways less heavily congested than those in Valley Forge or Fredericksburg and it has a feel more appropriate to our group.

I know a good number of gamers who have given up their memberships due to disenchantment with the way HMGS is run and yes they made personal statements to me so from my point of view this is not hearsay or conjecture. I keep my membership perhaps in some Quixotic view that voicing concerns and supporting the debate of issues that the BOD will not address in an open forum in its meetings will serve some good.

The Majority got hooked on the great cons that HMGS ran in Lancaster and Gettysburg and have tried to get their "summer fix" even in Valley Forge and many went to Fredricksburg. I don't know, however, if the bleeding has stopped yet especially now that some of us have gone the route of finding other summer gamming options which in some ways were more pleasant than the Historicon Experience. There are a number of things about Historicon that I miss but far fewer than I expected to.

Gil

500!