"Historicon Review" Topic

I posted a preliminary review on the other thread, but I thought I would go into more detail. I went down Thursday night and left Saturday night.

Venue:

As I posted before, physically, the venue is a solid B.

Pros

It is clean, though, unfortunately, the bathrooms were a notable exception to this. It seems to have quite a bit of space that is fairly well laid out (i.e. no twisty hallways like VFCC). There seemed to be plenty of parking, but as I also thought attendance was light, I can't say for sure that it would have held up to a record attendance level, though overall parking has to be rated a pro. The facility seems reasonably new, and certainly when compared to the Host or VFCC is a fresher, more modern space. It would seem to offer room to grow as well.

Cons

The aforementioned poorly-cleaned and infrequenty restocked bathrooms. The Host always took heat for this, and FCC was certainly no better. The lighting was poor in many areas (an endemic problem in all of our facilities). People complained about the noise, and at first I didn't think it was that bad, but as things wore on I realized I was having a lot of trouble hearing the GMs if they weren't right next to my ear. The concrete floors and structure of the exhibit area (where most gaming took place) did create a problematic level of background noise. Some people found the concrete floors to be hard on legs, backs, etc. I acknowledge the issue, but wasn't troubled by it myself. There were some gripes about AC, but I found it to be adequate all weekend. I will say that the folding chairs where quite uncomfortable.

There is a difference between convention/exhibit space and conference space. The Host had conference space, with carpet and acoustical ceilings. This type of space is better suited to our needs. FCC featured some of each type of space, and I suspect the conference rooms were quit and generally better venues for gaming.

Hotels:

Ok, this review splits a couple ways. First, I was unable to get a reservation in one of the adjacent hotels. It is unfortunate that this is another venue with totally inadequate onside room counts. Since I was not in one of the onside hotels, I cannot give a detailed review. I can say that they appeared to be quite nice and demonstrably superior to the Host. They struck me as similar to the VFCC hotels, but newer, and thus nicer. I heard complaints about the walk, but it didn't seem to be very far to me. my uneducated grade would have to be an A-

As for the off-site hotels, they were perfectly fine and reasonably priced. I would give them a B or B+ in a vacuum. The problem is that there was nothing convenient to the convention center. Like the Host or not, if you get shut out you can get a room literally yards away. We were a ten minute drive that was subject t what seemed like constant traffic issues on 95 (and despite somene's post that this was due to paving south of Fredericksburg, it seemed just as bad northbound). It wasn't the end of the world, but it was a pain. So while the offsite hotels get a B+ for cleanliness and value, they get a D for convenience. No doubt someone will say I should reserve earlier, and I intend to. But this changes nothing, as my reserving early will just bump someone else into the offsite accommodations in the provinces.

Food

The food on site was poor, IMO. I would rate it last among VFCC and the Host, though none of the three have very good food. I would have to give them a D for inside food.

The offsite food choices, however, were varied and, on the whole, excellent…by far the best of the three venues. They get a solid A. Along with food choices, the immediate offsite area offered great retail support as well. If you forgot anything from toothpaste to foam board for terrain, you were totally covered. Also, thumbs up to the "beach fries" truck parked outside, selling freshly cooked food that was orders of magnitude better than the slop being served within.

Attendance

Ok, this is a tough one. I can say pretty definitively that many, many regular attendees did not make the drive to Fredericksburg. As I said in my earlier post, there were six people I knew from my area out of at least fifty who usually attend. Whether these were made up by attendees from other areas remains to be seen.

My own initial impression was of light attendance across the board. There were it times it felt a little crowded in certain spots, but overall I thought it was noticably light. There were a lot of empty tables at all times, but I don't know if this is because of fewer games or if there were more tables. The dealer area never seemed busy when I was in there, though only the dealers know how they did. Hopefully some will share.

Three games I signed up for we're GM no shows or cancels. I don't know if this is indicative of a high percentage of people bailing on the con or of I just had bad luck.

Conclusions

Here's the most controversial part. I'm already going to take crap because I didn't just say that FCC is absolutely perfect and beg the BOD to stay forever. I'll take more by saying that I do not think it is a good location for Historicon. Physically it is more than adequate, though I do consider the lack of convenient offsite hotels to be a minus. However, I don't think the pluses overcome the fact that I think the geographic location is poor. I stipulate that it is more convenient for some, and that these gamers may feel it is "their turn" to have it close. All of that is understandable, and I don't intend to argue any of that. But for anyone coming from the north, it is an annoying drive that runs past or through multiple traffic-clogged cities. I know some people come from very far, but that is not the majority of attendees. I say this as someone who did go and will probably go next year.

The facility was perfectly fine – nice, but not without faults. I'm not dumping all over it, and it can certainly host a good con. I just think a different location would be better. We have lost attendance each of the last two years, and my guess is this makes three.

Will I go again? Yes, though the chance of me not going is higher than at the Host or VFCC.

Did I enjoy it? Yes, though not as much as I did when more of my friends were there. The move has made the convention less fun for me. That isnt a complaint, just a fact. I went with a very good friend, so we had a good time, but we ended up leaving a little earlier on Saturday than we expected because of the length of the drive and the fact that few of the guys we'd have been hanging out with Saturday night were there.

Overall, it was a nice facility, and things seemed to run pretty smoothly.

You should not take crap for your opinion. It is your opinion. The hotel issue is a matter that the show draws such a big crowd.
As I learned 2 decades ago when going to shows…always take a roll of two of toilet paper in case the bathroom is heavily used.

Glad to hear about the food. It is always an issue at some shows.

Good honest opinion

Thanks for being honest!

I did not get to go this year, due to location, so I am very glad you shared your opions with us. Thanks.

I also thank you for your honesty. Seems like many regulars(including myself) didn't attend since I'm hearing that attendance was light. If the light attendance remains next year the con will have to be moved for survival purposes but I will await to hear the financial report from HMGS. All in all…glad I didn't go through the hassle and expense of attending. Looking forward to Fall In and Cold Wars…

There is a difference between convention/exhibit space and conference space. The Host had conference space, with carpet and acoustical ceilings. This type of space is better suited to our needs.

Absolutely – totally agree, something that should have been understood following the issues at Timonium.

npm

A nice, detailed review.

Thanks for sharing.

I suspect attendance may also be light, due to the poor economy as well, which no doubt has some impact on that too.

Thank you for your honest and candid opinion.

For hotels, there are plenty to the south down route 1. I was in the townplace suites and had no trouble at rush hour (8am) getting to the site. Noise is worse in the main hall but as mentioned the smaller meeting rooms were fine. Bathrooms is the letdown, mostly due to one of them (in front of vendor hall) being closed the whole time.

Excellent AAR, Civil. Like I said earlier, I think your comments have been the most objective so far.

Like Ligniere, I also thought of Timonium when reading your review. Just goes to show that great minds do think alike, although Ligniere's mind is much greater than mine.

Let's wait and see what kind of attendance numbers HMGS puts out. Those, plus the dealers' sales numbers, will determine whether The Move is a success or not.

If The Move becomes permanent, the current HMGS leadership may just decide to hold Historicon as its "SouthernCon" with lower attendance than past Historicons, in the hopes that more gamers will attend Fall In and Cold Wars. In other words, the size of the pie stays the same, more or less, but the slices will be more equal.

We'll see.

I found my hotel the Homewood to be very good, the food at the convention site was okay and there were beach fries out on the lawn. The staff were very helpful and friendly I appreciated the work of every one of them. The dealers area was pretty good but too many of the old-timers were missing.

However
I will never return to this convention site as far as I think right now.

The sound in the in the gaming area was just completely overwhelming. It was like having two seashells next to your ear, I could barely if at all hear people in my game that were standing next to me. It almost made me dizzy to be in that room ,let alone the bad chairs andn the hard floor. Some of the side rooms seem to be good, they were not so loud and they had comfortable chairs. I was stuck in the big pit.

It seems to me that even with all the good stuff around the gaming area -- staff food lodging vendors, if the gaming area it's self is so terrible it just isn't worth going.

I just got back and agree with the review. Bathrooms, sound and on site food were awful. The hotel was great (one of the three adjacent – 500 yards from the CC)and so was the off site food (2 minute drive to Wegmans, Carrabas and Cracker Barrel). Airconditioning was bad but then it was 105 outside one day and I don't think any venue handles that well. I'm not planning on going next year but that's due to the location not any inadequacies of the facility.

The more comments I see, the more the FCC sounds like "Timonium South." Maybe that can be fixed if the convention stays there.

How was the ride home for everyone? Sunday is a nice day from MA to VA, so I'm sure there is plenty of beach traffic out there.

Safe trip home to everyone.

I appreciate the comments.

Obviously, we have struggled to find anyplace with enough hotel rooms onsite. I realize there may be nothing in our price range with 700 or 800 rooms, so it may not be solvable. I don't want to overstate how far our hotel was, but I felt it was surprisingly annoying to be even 10 minutes away. Some people may not care at all.

Bob – I have to agree about the noise. I read complaints on these boards about it before we got there, and then I thought, "this is not too bad." But then sitting during games you couldn't hear anyone. It's a background noise thing, and it is actually a bit of a problem.

Exhibition space like this is usually filled with carpets and draping from exhibitors, which soaks up some of the sound. In fact, the dealer side was noticeably quieter.

The wisdom and other issues surrounding the move have been discussed, sadly to effect. No point in rehashing. As I said, the venue is fine, but I still feel the location is going to be a drag on the convention. Maybe I am totally wrong about the dealers, but I've never seen the shopping area look so sparse. If the dealers got hammered revenue-wise that is going to shake things up.

And if you go next year and the beach fries truck is still there, don't even go near the convention food booths!

Ditto Civil on venue bathrooms. A little hot at times too. Glad they had water stations and I kept a cooler stocked.
My hotel was just off 17W, one exit away. I made a total of 4 trips between 17 and 3, stayed in the right lane each time
and exited at the next exit. No problems.
So I'm not unhappy with the motels. The venue is all right for next year, I believe and perhaps another venue will be sought. The geographical term came up again and seems to drive a disagreement on location. I expect this to keep on happening no matter where we go. This is not the absolutely ideal location, though convenient to many of us Virginians, but I'm okay with next year. The future is up in the air.
Willing to see how it goes and say I had a good time at Historicon.

I was unable to attend, but I was just north of there on Saturday evening around 5pm, on I-95, which came to a screeching halt southbound at the Occoquan exit. The traffic northbound was at a standstill as well. In my experience, this is normal for this stretch of 95, unfortunately. Route 1 is no better, having a traffic light every five feet. :-(

I have not seen the FCC facility. I am sure it is nice. But I think your observation of a convention hall versus a conference center is spot on. It was one of my main knocks against Timonium many years ago. I expect a nicer venue than a tin building with concrete floors.

FCC was very expensive up front, and no doubt incurred unexpected expenses as a new facility will. I will be curious to see if they made their budgeted attendance numbers, as like many of you, none of my usual gang went – for a variety of reasons. That means for every missing usual attendee they need a "new" person to replace them, and attendance had already been down at VFCC the first year 15%, not sure about the second.

So here is the dilemma the board must face – to gamble more people will come next year (they have not signed the contract as of a week ago), or cut your losses and move to ????? Given the economy doesn't seem to be improving in the foreseeable future, and numbers will be down regardless – I would take the fiscally conservative approach and either go back to the Host or the Ike (Gettysburg is relatively empty after July 4th weekend, and they offered a return to HMGS for about $7 USDk, or so I am told by knowledgeable people). Any move to a more expensive facility should be deferred till the economy improves. That would be my take anyway.

Still, I hope the con at FCC went well, and I am sure that many of those that attended had a good time. I understand that a lot of the guys who ran it live in Northern VA, and will be somewhat biased to having it closer to them. I certainly understand that, and would be too. Theoretically, it is closer to me than Lancaster, but not in reality – given the traffic backups on I-95.

Thanks for the AAR. I guess we'll have to wait till we hear the official numbers, but I suspect the BOD already had preliminaries at the Sunday morning meeting and most likely made a decision at that point.

I just got back from there a few hours ago and generally agree with most of the above. The food choices in the area were great, and if you were willing to drive a few miles had a fantastic array of choices. If you were willing to walk 200 yards you could always eat at the Wegman's food court.
I stayed at the Hilton Garden next door – accomodations were great, but I did get tired of walking through a 'goosecrap minefield' to/from the con center every time.
The bathrooms were too few, and too dirty most of the time, and the accoustics in the main hall were horrible – the GM for 1 game I was in had to shout to be heard across the board.
There wasn't enough water out – although there were fountains near the bathrooms, I only found 1 water station in the entire facility.
Although the move meant about 3 1/2 hours less driving time for me, I don't feel it was really a 'trade up' overall.

I will never attend a convention where I have to drive past Washington D.C. or NYC.

It is a fair review. I would only take exception to the statement:

>The problem is that there was nothing convenient to the convention center

It depends on how you define "convenient": I stayed at the Best Western next to exit 130, and I never took more than 10 minutes to get to the venue. A Super 8 was right next door, and a couple of other hotels were along Rout 3 closer to Fredericksburg downtown.

As far as I am concerned, I had a great time, and I found the location, overall, very good. I am glad I attended, and I will definitely plan on being back next year.

Noise would be my only big complaint…lost my voice after running my second game Saturday. Food was "baseball park" expensive as well and I missed the opportunity to go to the food bus out front. It would have been nice to if everyone was informed that the flea market was moved to the main gaming hall this morning as I stood around waiting until I saw staff putting the tables away…pleased with the hotel which was 10 minutes away, didnt take 95 to the the con but rather a few back roads which took the same amount of time. Overall had fun which matters most and found some great deals!

Traffic on Rt 1 during the weekend is a summer time thing. Everyone is trying to get to the Virginia Beach area. Unfortunately for me, traffic was a bit heavy coming home at 5:00pm on Saturday, undoubtedly caused by people cutting their weekend trip off early because of the rain.

Food inside the con was ball park food.

Beer inside the con was ball park beer. As it was a licensed area, there was no hope of (legally) bringing in good beer.

I thought the noise was fine, at least in the main area. The ceilings were quite high and had joists to break up the echo. Compared to the main room in the Host, it was pretty quiet.

Game selection was kind of lite on Saturday, especially in the morning from 10:00am to about 1:00pm. That was my biggest disappointment. I did not play in the morning but did observe a few games to see how they worked: most notably Saga.

For me, I think the Fredricksburg Expo center is a good site. It is close to my house, making a day trip pretty easy.

I agree with Janick that the Noise is my number one complaint. If there iw a way to fix that then I think it would change from a B- to a solid B+ maybe an A-.

I liked that it was very compact, I never had to go far from anything and the food choices close by were fantastic.

I fly in from Buffalo and the drive from BWI and back wasn't too bad. (late evening on Thursday and sunday morning back)

Looking forward to next year… (But first I will see you all t Fall In!)

I respectfully disagree about Route 1. I travelled it the first weekend of May while coming back from Williamsburg. It was a nightmare. It took me an additional two hours to travel it, and there sure was no beach traffic then. There are too many red lights to make decent time on Route 1, and if I-95 is backed up (when isn't it?), everyone bails and makes it even slower on Route 1, which was the case then as (surprise) I-95 was gridlocked in both directions around the Stafford area.

Again, I'll wait till we hear the attendance numbers, as that really is the determining factor, unless we are just into losing money, or the BOD is betting more people would come out a second round of FCC – but that would be just a guess.

Thank you for the thoughtful review.

I really enjoyed the convention, and thought the facility was generally good. The dealer hall and flea market seemed to be busy and run well.

I didn't notice any problems with the heat (and I'm a fat guy). I heard a couple vendors complaining about the concrete floors because they didn't have floor pads.

The two games we ran had adequate space and tables, but the combination of the concrete floors and metal roof led to a very loud venue. In the game I ran Friday night in the main hall, I had to speak very loudly or shout to be heard. Can we arrange to have some type of carpets for the next iteration? Perhaps that would help. Or ask the center if they're planning any noise absorbing improvements in the very high ceilings.

Bathrooms seemed a little dumpy for a new place, but no worse than the Host.

I spoke to a lot of people who liked the venue, and I didn't hear any major complainers onsite (just nitpicks). I agree with joker and liked Fredericksburg, and think that it makes a good geographic variation from everything in Lancaster.

And the surrounding amentities and other features inside the FCC were dramatically better than Timonium, so I don't see that as a great comparison (beyond the concrete floors.)

I didn't mind the noise. I just got used to it. But I work on jet airplanes. So it may bother those that have quite jobs or lifestyles. I cant hear the best because of it; but had no problems hearing gm's or fellow players. This was my first Historicon. I really enjoyed it. Maybe the crowd from up north is a little biased to their area to have events. I could understand changing venues to some would be something they don't want. I for one was glad it was closer to where I live this time. See I have not been able to attend because of distance. So I know many others are now in that boat this year nearby last years site. So I had no problem with anything and was just happy to finally be able to go. I met a lot of great people; played games; and bought lots of goodies. I sat in on a live podcast of WWPD and met the guys who put the podcast on. It was a great convention. Maybe me being new makes me enthusiastic and less critical I guess. This was a long awaited pilgrimage for me.

I just returned from Historicon and will agree with most of the statements above.

Our verdict was that overall Lancaster was a better con site because the chairs were comfortable, the floor isn't concrete and you could hear what was being said by the guy across the table from you. I'm an old guy and my hearing is deteriorated to start with, and it was BAD at this site. Timonium South is a good description.

The on-site food was average at best but the walkable-distance choices were the best for any Historicon.

Walking to and from the hotels was ok, but I wouldn't want to do it with a load of 25mm figures!

This would be an excellent choice for future events if the sound, bathroom and seating problems were addressed.

Well written revue.

I know I, for one, did not attend for a couple of reasons, one of which was having to drive to Fredricksburg. I bring my wife because I don't want to miss out on time with her, and it is asking too much to travel that far for something she has very little interest in.

Just my particular situation….

I had a good time. I agreed with Civils letter grades. I wonder on attendence though.
A vendor had told me that 3000 more people preregistered than last year.
I ran 5 games with a total of 50 players and added slots as I could to accomodate people looking to get in games. Last year I had a SCW game with a single gamer – who had made the trip from Michigan to play SCW.
The sound in the hall was brutal and it will be a day or two before I get my voice back. Thursday was not too bad, but Friday and Saturday were terrible. It was nice to have the games in one place rather than the maze that was VF, but between the sound and concrete floors it was a little tough.
I talked to several vendors and one of 4 said sales had been soft. The others were quite happy.
I know the majority of my group did not make the drive. Which went from 5 hours to 7.5 hours with a stop to eat lunch.
I will attend Historicon if I can. I remain an adherent of the Host until a Host/Lancaster substitute can be found, but I will support the con by attending and running games or working as staff whenever I can.

I forgot a huge plus as a GM. The tables matched and were the same height.

I went on Saturday. I cannot comment on the distance since I only live 33 miles away. I was originally worried about attendance because when I arrived to register at 8 a.m. there wasn't any line. It also looked like there were a lot of empty tables throughout most of the day, but it also seemed that there were a lot of people there overall. I guess that we will have to wait for the Board to release the numbers. I agree with many of those who complained about the noise in the main hall, but I figure that they have a year to work on a solution. I also had a gripe about the food ($3.00 for a pretzel), but then again there were dozens of places within a short drive and I made it to the Burger King and back within 15 minutes. Throughout the day I must have talked to about 30 total strangers from a large cross section of the country and when asked what they thought about the site, all but 1 (a dealer who brought up the distance issue) stated that they were pleased. I was disappointed though that On Military Matters was not there. The highlight of the day was playing in Richard Borg's Antietam Battle Cry game. Even though the game was sold out when I arrived, he found me a slot as Burnside. The man is a class act! Unfortunately, due to some bad rolls and a tough opponent, I repeated history and the Union lost overall. My biggest concern on the drive home was what impact my actions would have had on the Emancipation Proclamation.

The cons attendance seemed light. I wasn't impressed with many games, there were a few nice ones, but not as many as I would expect at Historicon.

I have to agree on tables, they were a lot less beat than the tables at the host.

Missing a lot of dealers.

Lighting wasn't bad

I made comments on the site on the other thread.

The size of the facility made attendance seem smaller. We are just not used to everyone being in a semi-unseparated 100,000 sq. ft. Unlike the Host or King of Prussia where games were all over the place. I think it is a matter of perspective more than any thing else.

I also worked in the vendor hall and you always have your complaints about profits from vendors but as a whole the vendors liked the site, save the concrete floor.

1) NOISE – this was really a problem in the main gaming Hall Friday and Saturday; Friday night I found myself with Tinnitus (a roaring sound in the ears)for the first time ever; at first I thought it was my hearing aid malfunctioning!The dealer Hall was OK, and the side conference rooms fine. This is absolutely the #1 issue that MUST be addressed for 2013. Don't know anyone who didn't find this problematic, acknowledging that main gaming hall is always going to be at least moderately noisy due to the nature of our hobby. Although not a problem for me, some definitely did complain of discomfort from standing on hard concrete for hours at a time.

2) Chairs were tolerable but decidedly substandard. Agree that the uniform height of the gaming tables was a significant plus, though.

3) Food – onsite food was satisfactory, nothing special and not as much variety as the Host, but certainly acceptable. For those who disagree, there are a plethora of very nearby, convenient sites, including just about every restaurant chain conceivable.

4) Bar – although not a big drinker, I had a HUGE (? 8 oz)glass of generic but certainly quite palatable wine for $5 USD, and a similarly huge whiskey sour that was roughly a double and quite well made for $5.50 USD. Not much need for me to BYO at that rate, although I saw plenty of contraband on site as well (no names mentioned).

5) Drive – we left from Western Connecticut at 8:45 AM, arrived at our hotel (Carlson Country Inn and Suites) on Warrrentown road, 1 exit North of the Convention center just after 3PM, driving non stop. Only two delays due to traffic, each about 10 mins. Driving home today, another 5 minute delay in DC and 20 mins merging back onto the NY State Thruway, trip took about6 hrs 45 minutes. Considering that my non CT wargames friends that I see every year come from Los Angeles, San Francisco, Ohio, Kentucky, North Carolina, Upstate NY, and England, my travel time was probably still the least of any of them. OTOH, another acquaintance had a 9-10 hour drive, but they left at 1PM, just about perfect to hit rush hour traffic all the way from Wilmington to Fredericksburg; not recommended! The drive from the Hotel was about 10 minutes, slightly longer if you hit the traffic wrong – doubtless there is a back way to skirt I-95 when necessary. Not as convenient as Lancaster, but no worse than staying off site at Valley Forge, and on site parking (and loading/unloading for GMs) much easier than at the Host.

6) AC was quite adequate despite temps to 103 and high humidity some days; if the Host has an Achilles heel for Historicon, anyone who has been there in July knows that the inadequate A/C is it!

Will I go to Fredericksburg again for Historicon? Of course! NOISE is really the only absolutely critical issue to address with the site. Overall I thought HMGS-East and all the convention staff were to be commended for a very smooth show at a new site in a new state; it is only to be expected that some issues will come up that can be improved upon next time. For those who find it too far to drive, Cold Wars and Fall In are roughly an hour closer if you're coming from the North East, or just don't want to deal with the DC area.

I almost hesitate to comment on this topic as it has raised rancor on other threads and resurrected the North vs. South beast, which in my opinion is a load of garbage to begin with. Just to be fair one of the pluses for me with the convention this year was that instead of a nine-hour drive, my time on the road was six. However, I have attended many a Historicon, Cold Wars, and Fall In and supported these conventions despite the long trip. Of course, again to be honest if the convention had moved further north I would have to weight my options as to whether the trip would have been worth it. For many it is worth the trip as I met old friends at the convention who have traveled all the way from Texas. Regardless, if the move had been up north I would not have wished ill on the convention as some here on TMP in their self-centered and selfish attitude have. You know who you are!

That stated I think the venue is a fine location. I know some have complained about the noise and I find this statement strange. Yes, it did get loud in the main gaming hall but I never felt I needed to shout to be heard by the person sitting or standing next to me, as I have had to do in the Host's rooms during peak gaming hours. The high ceilings absorbed the noise, yet I agree that adding some sound absorption construction would not hurt. I never had a problem with temperatures in any area of the convention center except on the side where the painting classes were taking place. This may most likely have been because of all the glass and direct sun that area received.

Another plus about the main gaming area was there was plenty of room. And as a bonus, there was table space for gamemasters to set their boxes and stuff down so they could set up their game area. That is something not always possible in the cramped areas of the Host.

There needed to be water station in more than one hallway area.

I stayed at the Homewood Suite, which was fantastic! Great rooms, with a kitchen, free breakfast every morning, and free dinner except on Friday and the Weekend. The Homewood Suite staff were top notch and went out of their way to be helpful. A brief walk across the street brought me to Wegman's and a wide selection of dining options with good food and prices. This alone leaves the Host area wanting. I have to say that the food being served in the convention center was sub-par, except for a BBQ sandwich I has one evening. Because the convention center has a liquor license I did not have a problem with not being allowed to bring in my own alcohol. However, their beer selection needs to be expanded. Their mixed drinks were acceptable.

Overall, the attendance did seem down; however, until the numbers are in that is completely a subjective observation on my part. Did the convention loose people due to the move? You bet it did. Did it gain new people because of the move? You bet it did. Does this venue need to be given a chance to prove itself? Yes it does.

I gamed very little this time around. I participated in the flea market and mainly shopped. I did see a number of good games and some that looked stunning.

The dealer's room was excellent as always. Most of the dealers I talked to seemed be having a good convention. I did talk to a couple that were not breaking even. Perhaps some of them will come on the forum and give us their observations.

I plan to attend again next year and will make sure to run games. I missed not doing that this year.

I think the venue has a lot of potential but there are some problems. I will agree that the noise did seem an issue in the main hall…I understand the powers that be are already working on a set of possible fixes…surrounding the gaming area with curtains to absorb some of the noisea for one.

Lighting in the club rooms, where I ran my games, could be better…some higher wattage recessed lighting would do the trick. Remember how many years we had to fight with the Host to finally get the lighting right in Distlefink?

Bathrooms dirty…have you seen some of the people using them? Some couldn't seem to hit the broadside of a barn. Even setting that aside, they could have been cleaner…some of the bathrooms at the Host got pretty rank at times.

Food choices…didn't eat in the hall but as others have said there were plenty of choices…and anybody who drove to Wegmans, which had almost anything you may have wanted, rather than walked probably eats too much and gets too little exercise anyways. The walk from the hotels…I stayed at the furthest from the site and while it was a brisk walk, some of our members certainly could use the exercise.

Attendance…a birdy told me preliminary numbers were 2600-2700…not a record but not bad and that would include many new attendees to make up for the one holding their breath till they turn blue in the northeast…its over now, you can breath.

db

Civil – a most enjoyable read. Thank you. It should all boil down to numbers. If the attendance for Historicon went up, chances are very good the con will remain in VA. If the numbers decline, then it'll move again. Time will tell.

Cold Wars and Fall In are still in PA – so I think many of our friends that normally attend Historicon will attend either of these – or both.

Attendance…a birdy told me preliminary numbers were 2600-2700…not a record but not bad and that would include many new attendees to make up for the one holding their breath till they turn blue in the northeast…its over now, you can breath.

If those are the numbers then I believe that was a loss. Normally, there were 2800 – higher in HCon's hayday. Sure, you picked up new attendees – at the expense of old attendees.

I wonder how the dealers fared financially and what was the mix? I did hear they lost some good dealers – e.g. OMM and replaced them with allot more painting services.

FCC was very expensive up front, and no doubt incurred unexpected expenses as a new facility will.

I heard that they were offered a deal where the tables and chairs were free – as opposed to renting them. That might bring the place more in line – cost wise – with the previous two.

Those were preliminary numbers, which tend to be lower…given the economy the Historicon "heyday" is over… and given who was reporting them I have always had my doubts about their accuracy. For the dealers new attendees might buy more than those who've been to previous conventions…the dealers I talked to said it was a good show for them.

To far and to costly for us NH/ME merchants.

See you at Fall In.

CP

I believe the all time high at Hcon was something like 3,400 at the Host. The move to VFCC lost a reported 15% the first year – so that would be 2890. I am not sure if it stayed flat or lost the second year there, but I never heard it grew. Preliminary numbers are just that, and they need to be scrubbed to remove duplicates – which has been more of an issue than under counting. You'd also have to remove people who paid but did not attend as well, if you want accurate attendance numbers. I agree with David that whatever the numbers they are somewhat suspect.

Given the economy, it stands to reason that those who attended are better off, and perhaps more able to spend money, so the dealers are not a good indicator of attendance – which is really the measure, isn't it?

So let's put this in perspective – if these numbers are in the ballpark (and I suspect they will be), Hcon has become what Cold Wars used to be in in terms of attendance or what FI was trending towards some years ago.

The question is, does it make sense to spend this amount of money on this facility with such attendance, or perhaps go more conservative till the economy improves? The hope was to get lots of new attendance from the south, which does not seem to have materialized. I'm not a Host lover, but given these preliminary numbers, we are now looking at a summer convention more along the lines of Cold Wars. If the cost of the facility was more in line with the Host, I'd say leave it there, but as a member, I'd have to question paying double the cost for the numbers it drew.

I would also point out that if they got less dealers than budgeted, and less attendees, then unless they cut expenses somewhere else, the convention had to come in over budget. The cost of the facility is fixed, the only major variables are attendance and the number of dealers – and how some expenses are moved off budget of the convention to chapter expenses. Such things need to be counted against the convention it supported to get an accurate picture of the real costs, and that has not been done in the past.

The attendance the last year at the Host was 3,560.

link

FWIW, the economy was worse in 2009 than it is now.

I hadn't heard that, and I'm not sure I believe that, but still taking that at face value, then FCC only got 76% of the last VFCC Hcon. So based on those numbers, we had a 24% drop in attendance, and the facility is much more expensive than either the Ike or the Host.

As far as the economy being better, that is debatable, yet again, using the numbers available, we lost 24% attendance. So would you rate that a success? Would you double down on that bet?

Please note that my bias against FCC is due to the fact that none of my friends attended. And it appears that the hope for more people coming from the south to compensate for that did not materialize.

I'd like to see the "official" numbers for HCon 2012. I'd also like to know if they're including dealers and their staff in those numbers as well.

If someone has access to the Yahoo group for HMGS – can you tell us what the numbers for Cold Wars look like for the past three years also please?

As a vendor I'd have to rate the weekend as a success. My sales were done about 10% from the last Historicon and my expenses about that much higher, but it was still worth going. I agree about the noise problems. Even in the vendor area I sometimes had to come out of my booth and stand next to a customer to hear what they were saying. It was worse in the big gaming area. We stayed in the closest hotel and it was extremely nice (though rather expensive). As noted, the food variety in the adjacent shopping mega-plaza is big enough that you could come here for ten years and never eat dinner in the same place twice. We drove down from Philadelphia on Wednesday and back Sunday afternoon and never had any significant traffic tie-ups. Bottom line: I'll be back next year.

Had a great time at H'con…as always it is a blast to seeing, visiting, gaming and sharing chow with old friends.

From what I saw & experienced all of our Battle Barn games were a success! All of the our club sponsored games were filled to the max of players and from an dlaughs went well. Thanks to all the guys who helped us set up, tear down, GM, Co-GM, build terrain, and give support! It is an honor to call you "buddies!"

F'burg Expo is a good place to game…close by home (I live in Richmond)plenty of chow in the expo and nearby. Parking was close and VERY-VERY easy access for loading and unloading our game stuff (Probably the best unless you get a slot at near the HOST back loading dock) Like the way the dealer hall and flea market was laid out.

My only 3 gripes were the game hall was very noisy, they only had 6 working toilet stalls and the Bathrooms rooms were not cleaned throughout the day. Which brought "Host" flashbacks from the late 1990s!

VFCC is still my favorite HMGS site but I do look forward to H'con in FCC next year.

Ron

I give the HMGS East BoDs a pat on the back. I think it is GREAT to show diversity in convention locations. Great way to reach out to the gamer community considering the large numbers that attend the cons from Virginia, NC and even further south. Lancaster is a good location as is VFCC or even Gettysburg for that matter. Each site is going to have issues, I think we can all agree on that.

The questions is can Fredericksburg take the AARs and make improvements for 2013? Maybe add in some portable dividers to the main hall to eliminate noise? Portable lighting for some of the areas? More frequent cleaning of the bathrooms would be nice as well.

The staff was top notch as were the gaming tables that was provided to us. Registration area was in a good location as was accesability to local restaurants.

As a GM and a gamer I had a good time this past weekend and plan on attending in 2013.

R/S

TopKick

I agree with SFC Retired about unloading for games as well, never had an issue finding an open spot in front where we could pull in for 15 minutes to unload. Thankfully my game was a mere 40 foot walk into the main gaming area which made it very easy to unload everything. This was definitely a plus.

Some folks are still under the delusion that Historicon will return to the Host in Lancaster. It's not going to happen, so get used to it. HMGS has already made the firm business decision that all three shows will not be held in the same facility ever again.

The reasons should be obvious, but as a quick review I'll offer a couple here. What if the Host goes bankrupt next week, next month, or 6 months from now? What if the Host suffers from some natural disaster? As happened to the Osprey "Military History Weekend" last year, when the original scheduled facility was severely damaged by a tornado a couple of months before the show date. What if the local government seizes the property for "another" use?

So for those hoping Historicon will be moving back north anytime in the near future you can stop hoping! As I understand the contract with Fredericksburg for 2013 is already signed. Also add the fact that just about every facility north of the DC/Baltimore line has for one reason, or another been crossed off the list of possible locations I just don't see why the whole "Move" conversation needs to go on any longer.

Others have already pointed out the positives and the short falls of the current facility in Fredericksburg. So how about we get down to the business of working out solutions for the problems noted where solutions can be worked out. If you don't like the traffic around DC, well guess what, it isn't going to get any better! Historicon is likely to stay put for 3 – 5 years unless some place better comes a long, and right now that place does not exsist. Let's move the ball forward!