"3D Space - Combat tactics" Topic

It doesn't really mayter to me whether or not facings and weapon arcs are realistic or not. They're fun! :-)

I have a set of house 3-D air-to-air rules that we have used for everything from World War I to modern jets. The basic system is heavy bases with 6' posts (3/4" metal, although I found some 6' fiberglass dowels for marking driveways the other day). Run wire around the post and then around the wings of the model, long enough to allow banking, climbing, and diving attitudes. Clip the wire to the post with a clothespin. It sounds odd and clumsy, but players almost immediately work with the models and the mind blanks out the other hardware.

Novice players try to turn with an enemy at roughly the same altitude or remain relatively stationary vis-a-vis the target (like a bomber). More experienced players dive and climb to gain a turn advantage versus an enemy.

(See the Robin Olds maneuver here) PDF link

The result is that air tactics work, the feel of flight is there, and the difficulty of gaining firing position becomes manifest REALLY early. If you've ever shot skeet or hunted birds on the wing, you know how difficult it can be to get a hit. Now add trying to gain the right lead with a whole airplane, as both of you maneuver. Yikes. Flying a missile to effectively collide with target is no picnic either.

You might try the same method for space ships.

Omemin-- the main problem is the ranges, speeds, physics, and designs of space (and space ships) don't make that third dimension any more important than any other direction. Firing arcs are also less important (though I wouldn't say nonexistent).

Though your system would work the fundamental thing is that its just not necessary to have 3d; its not bad, just not important.

In air combat it does matter, of course, and for that I'd like something like your system.

I have no central vision in my left eye (sports injury and subsequent surgery in my early teens), so I only see in 2-D. Still, the 3-D presentation makes it easier for me to see the situation and plan accordingly.

Generally, if the situation is 3-D, the game presentation thereof should be as well, at least for me.

I agree that a 3d situation should generally be portrayed in 3d… if a game is 3d, that is, please don't just represent it by putting down chits that show the height. Actually show the height, if possible (by putting blocks under the planes, or whatever).

My point is that mechanically there is no problem with 2d space games… the third dimension doesn't need to be represented in anyway… no tactics are lost. Hence the game presentation, 2d, reflects the game situation, which is 2d.

As a game is just a representation, generally, of the tactical situation, the game's mechanics then reflect the tactical situation… which doesn't have much to do with dimensions in general.

For Silent Fury, I really wanted to make it 3D, I really did. Ultimately I ran into the wall of how to do so and keep the game elegant and simple, and in the end elegance and simplicity won out over whatever benefits that 3-D movement and positioning would have given the system – thus, Silent Fury remains a 2D game. I wish you all the best with your design.

Just throwing this idea out there after finding this thread…

What if you had a space game where you moved from range band to range band where facing/weapon arcs didn't matter much until you got into knife fighting range. There, you would break out a mini-game* where tactics, facing, and then rest would matter?
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TAZ

* Ace of Aces would be one way to do that. Just downloaded the Vector3 PDF, need to see if that would be applicable. Anyone want to make a 3D Warp Warp? :-)

TSINI… I feel your pain… I too am working on a 3D version for space… I think my friend and I have solved the problem… it takes a little getting used to, but it all falls into place very rapidly once you see how it works.

I have taken a break form my WW1 rules to try and polish the idea up and get the core space fleet rules down. So far, our ideas work great for ships of similiar sizes, but once you put in capital ships (anything large) it mucks it up a bit. I have some ideas to resolve it… we'll see.

Good Luck on your game too!!!! I am not lookng to get rich, but rather have a very pleasing visual game.. and 3 D does matter and opens up a whole new avenue of tactics… Anyone who has ever played SW Galaxies space combat knows… all 3D planes matter much for finding blind spots, weak spots, etc…

On one hand, 3D in video games is very well done.. but I woudl liek to try to bring it to the table top. If I want my ships to line up and fight on a 2D plane…. I'll play Wooden ships and Iron men or soem other 2D sail game.

The core issues are actually very simple.

First, in this fictional sci-fi situation, do the ships have a variety of protection / weapons in various places as well as a thrust/engine mount that masks fire? If the answer is no, then most 3D issues are a moot point. Everything then boils down to timing of attacks, whatever, to provide interesting tactical situations since the angles of attack are irrelevent.

Second, if they do, then 3D matters and you could boil down attack to meaningful things like vectors and timing and just play a game based upon those deciding factors.

Overall, I think a game with all the details from engineering to who emptied the ash trays in the officers lounge are a waste of space. No pun intended.