"Battlefront Miniatures only" Topic

See, this is the misnomer about capitalism. The reaction to competition by companies that are large enough in their market is not to produce a better product or reduce prices to win market share. Instead, the first reaction often is to restrict competition.

It's cheaper and easier to restrict competition (through lobbying for regulation or buying out the competition or whatever) than to actually try to compete on a level playing field. No company wants to compete on an even playing field if they can avoid it. They ALL want to be monopolies!

BF claims to have created the FOW Hobby through their extensive support. In reality, they came to the tournament show rather late, with the national tournaments. Until a few years ago, all the tournaments were run locally and game stores provided the prize support.

We ran one of the first (maybe THE first) FOW tournament in the US. For years GHG and other shops and enthusiasts were the standard bearers for Flames of Wars, mostly for no monetary reward from BF. There were no nationals and no real support from BF. Only after we had built up the demand to a certain level, did BF pull the distributorship from John Kennedy at Military Miniatures USA and set up a warehouse and distribution center here.

Why inject history into this?

"BF claims to have created the FOW Hobby through their extensive support. In reality, they came to the tournament show rather late, with the national tournaments."

Maybe in the US but what about the rest of the world? Anyway tournaments are only a small part of their "hobby" What about their website with a forums, heaps of articles, PDF downloads etc.

But I agree with others comments that if their products are good enough then people wouldn't mind paying more (kind of like GHQ in the microarmour world). I have some of the old Soviet infantry and they are much nicer than the newer rubbish and with much more poses.

Cheers
Kieran

It's "the FOW hobby" bit that gets me. Did Jack Scrubby, Don Featherstone, Charles Grant and their contempories really have nothing to do with this? If Battlefront are arrogant enough to think they created a new hobby they should be reminded that they are new kids on he block in the world of WARGAMING.

Maybe in the US but what about the rest of the world? Anyway tournaments are only a small part of their "hobby" What about their website with a forums, heaps of articles, PDF downloads etc.

I dunno. What about the rest of the world?

Again, originally the pdfs, and articles were produced by fans. I think many still are. Forums are marketing tools used by companies in all fields. BF is offering nothing unique here.

In Australia nearly all tournaments have been run by local clubs and cons unconnected with BF. Initially BF was happy to supply lots of product as prize support but that soon reduced and for the past few years they have refused to provide store credit for FOW tournament prize support locally so Stores do not provide "free" prize support any more (you _can_ buy vouchers for half price though, just like GW).
Last year BF did authorise some "GT" tournaments but for the LWGT I attended they couldn't even provide the special objective markers every entrant was supposed to receive so who knows what happened to the support the hosting store would have expected. The store shut down a few weeks later.

All friends again…..!!!!

That's probably the best answer BF could have provided given the circumstances and I expect it will defuse the situation nicely although there will inevitably be residual bad feeling amongst their customers and the fanboy vs gamer schism on the forum is unlikely to make for a totally happy family going forward.

Of course it's still PR guff.

We did not see this change as a big problem as we were simply formalising something we already thought was existing practise

Why bother making it a rule if everyone was already following that practice?

And it certainly doesn't jibe with their previous responses:

if this or any other decison we make has you changing your mind then we wish you all the best and thank you for your business

and

i bet the answer is no and for exactly the same reason as we would like you to use our stuff you have bills to pay

and

we get quite a lot of people saying they don't enjoy playing against non battlefront miniatures and would love a way to mark opponents down for having them […] However the players who are using other minis are making someone else's hobby less enjoyable, there are 2 sides always.

and

take a deep breath and ask yourself "if you owned a game company where your sole income came from, and people started doing to you what some of you are doing what would you do?"

I would suggest that John Matthews' posts have probably done more to foster bad feeling over the last couple of days that the initial decision itself. People can smell BS straight away. I don't really care two pennies about FoW official tournaments but I hate liars and PF puffery is merely lies with a smart haircut.

Well said Alex Kulic

Nother vote for Alex's incisive summary

We've had the 'Ratner effect', 'The Osbourne Effect' and 'The Elop Effect', so can we now talk about 'The Battlefront/FoW Effect'? (Not as catchy, we'll have to work on that)

"if you owned a game company where your sole income came from, and people started doing to you what some of you are doing what would you do?"

Make better models? Charge less money? :-)

I blame the customers. It's clearly you lot doing to them what some of you are doing… :-D

I acknowledge that it can frustrating. We all deal with it every day. It's annoying when you work hard to make a nice model, only to be told "you can buy plastic ones cheaper in Poundland", or "[insert manufacturer] also make those you know".

But then that's business.

Well said Geoff, I for one will certainly look closely at your range before I hare off on my next project.

I blame the customers. It's clearly you lot doing to them what some of you are doing… :-D

But they havent recognised it may not be the people they are punishing….its those cheapskate people who play other ww2 games that are riding on the coat tails of fow. Freeloaders….all of them! They are only doing it because they are cheap.

What's an even more telling sign is that there is better discussion of the issue going on here than on BF's own forums.

Because you know…..those threads are now all deleted.

Shan

Personally I think Battlefront have it within there rights to ask for only BF figures to be used at their tournaments. If they are providing good quality prize and event support, then this obviously has to come at a price from somewhere. I agree that is a response to the likes of PSC coming into the market, however they have to protect their business interests at the end of the day. You can't expect a business to keep going if you don't support it.

I think everyone is getting there knickers in a twist for no reason, deal with it and move on.

Quantum, no one is saying they don't have the right to run their business their way. People are saying it's a poor, self-defeating way to run their business. :)

I hazard that many of the folks most upset by this are actually more concerned about BF/FOW's long term viability than many of the "I support BF! YAY!!!" types.

"however they have to protect their business interests at the end of the day"

..and how have they stopped 99% of wargamers…not fow players buying PSC?…and the 99% is what BF claimed. I would actually assume it to be higher.

There is an interesting thread on wwpd about "how does BF beat PSC". The truth is that there isnt anything they can do that does not involve their own product. Some people cannot work out why BF haven't 'bought out PSC' I suspect that they couldnt afford to….but give it a couple of years and PSC might be able to buy BF thought!

It seems that Battlefront has tried to co-opt the existign tournament scene that had been going on FOR YEARS before they started to sanction "the chanpionships", and then tried to impose the 100$ BF requirement on them.
Tournaments had been getting along fine without them for years.
Now, they have backed off to "just 50%".
It's like the Russian Mob trying to edge out the Italian Mob, and all them Vitos fought back.

If BF wants to dominate the tournament scene with their product, like they already do with their rules and supplements, then perhaps they should ethink their strategy. Bullying didn't work. Putting out a better quaity product at competitive prices would do it, but that is too much like work.

So John the OFM, according to your post they do not currently have a quality product? I agree they need to be a bit more competitive, but if you wan't a premium product then you should expect to pay a premium price. Also, what is wrong with them sanctioning their own championships? Doesn't mean I can't run my own championships as well!

KevanG – Why would they buy out PSC? The current owner once bought out could then start a new line of plastic 15mm's. Buying out PSC would achieve nothing.

Darthfozzywig – The viability of BF/FOW relies on the consumer in the future. If people only buy the obscure one or two models from BF and the bulk of armies from PSC etc, then their business cannot be future proof. The success of the rules is based upon a large, in demand product range. Don't support the figure range and the rules support from BF will collapse.

So John the OFM, according to your post they do not currently have a quality product?

Is that what I said? I said, that they need to put out a "better quality" product to justify their policy.

But, assuming that what you deliberately misunderstood what I said, let's look at that.
I have been forced to attend far too many "quality seminars" during my misspent youth in manufacturing. The most universally agreed upon definition of "quality" is "conforms to expectations".
In the case of Battlefront, that means simply that if you order a tank model, that you not have to call or email them to get the missing gun. Or that you get both a left and right track set, instead of two lefts. BTW, that meant that someone out there got two rights.
It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how swell the shovel looks, or how nice it is that you get fve different stowage patterns on a box set of 5.
If you WANT to apply subjective critria, I see no reason to claim that BF has a "BETTER" quality than far less expensive product. That boils down to "I like" and is not quantifiable, unlike "conformation to the print".

Applying the "I like" criterion to Battlefront product, there are a lot of models and older infantry that "I like". "I like" the Finns, and "I like" the infantry that came with the older Armored Rifles box sets I got. And there are a lot of models where, disregarding the price, "I like" the competition better.

That aside. If YOUR definition of "quality" means that the shovel and axe are cute, then are you willing to pay three times as much as for an Old Glory tank whose shovel is just as cute?

In your reply to darthfozzywig, you seem to be saying that it is our responsibility to keep BF viable by buying their product. But, perhaps I am deliberately misunderstanding what you wrote, just like you misunderstood me.

BTW, I DO suport them, by buying their hideously overpriced books. And I intend to buy ALL of the Battle of the Bulge books coming up. If they can't be bothered to make their models competitively priced at a comparable quality, then I see no need to make an Act of Contrition for not buying more BF toys.

"BF have based their business on being a one stop shop"

..AND THERE LIES THE PROBLEM….

the shop stocks their competitors as well, when previously, they didn't. The plastics have their own distribution system.

"Quantum 16 Jul 2012 7:48 a.m. 
Darthfozzywig – The viability of BF/FOW relies on the consumer in the future. If people only buy the obscure one or two models from BF and the bulk of armies from PSC etc, then their business cannot be future proof. The success of the rules is based upon a large, in demand product range. Don't support the figure range and the rules support from BF will collapse."

Quantum, where do I begin.

First. It is not a Battlefront Miniatures tournament, it is a Flames of War rules tournament. Could I show up with my BF Sherman's and play by Command Decision or Spearhead rules and army lists? That wouldn't work real well now would it? So the rules used, not the figures is the defining point of what the tournament is about. If the roles say I can have an M4A1 Sherman, and I do have one on the table it is irrelevant to the purposes of the tournament whose pocket was lined for producing that tank. Only the ability of an opponent to look at it and know what it is capable of doing under the rules is relevant.

Now if the rules called for an imaginary vehicle that BF designed and created, then they might have the right to define what it is supposed to loOk like and not allow products that are stealing their copyrighted designs on the table.

The success of Battlefront is there responsibility as a company, not ours as potential customers. You can't blame the customer for not liking your offerings. You have to provide what they want at a price they are willing to pay. If BF wants their gravy train to continue to fund their operations, then then they must find a way to out compete PSC. Why is there a PSC in the first place? Because BF decided to not switch to plastic years ago and sell us 5 tanks for 25$. They decided they did not have to do that to get our money. Now they find out they were wrong, and they should have looked at ways to better serve their customers. BF chose not to take the profit hit a few years ago to lead the market, they chose not to take the profit hit last year to keep pace with the market, now it is only their decision if they are going to take the profit hit now to try and catch up to the market. But trying to ban competitors never works, it at best insulates a company from the market until it is so far behind it can never catch up. Then they just disappear, so unless you want that, you should be against protectionism and kickIng BF in the rear to convince them they have two choices: catching up or going bankrupt.

The viability of BF/FOW relies on BF meeting the needs and desires of current and future customers.

Well, since I already lost any possible interest in playing "offical" FOW Tournament games a couple years ago when they implemented their "Qualifiers" system, this does not really impact me one way or the other. I do remember in the "early days" (as opposed to "early war") of FOW, when BF specifically told the players that they did not require use of BF miniatures. Good times…. ;)

Well our club has probably 10 FoW players and maybe 30+ armies, and some of those players regularly play and rank highly in competitions. I cant think there is 1 of those armies that would fit the 100% criteria, even the 50% criteria would be a push in many cases.

How far down does this requirement go ? What if you base your tank models – do they have to be BF bases? What about if like me you own some pre plastic based infantry and have them on non BF bases? How about my M10Cs – I have OG vehicles but BF crew – so is that a 75% BF model or what? Oh hang on, some of the stowage is PeterPig…………

Frankly the best solutions have already been mentioned, shift to indie competitions or move to other rules.

God help the first competition organiser who decides to DQ a player because he only has 49% BF figs

but if you wan't a premium product then you should expect to pay a premium price.

That is the line GW fanboys swallowed and spat back out for years.

Don't kid yourself: BF minis are not a "premium product" in comparison to others in their market.

"……."but if you wan't a premium product then you should expect to pay a premium price.""

That is the line GW fanboys swallowed and spat back out for years. "

yep, I often wonder if they actually use their eyes and know what he real thing looks like. If BF models could actually match the box art!….

They don't need to look at it. It's Preciousssssss.

Don't support the figure range and the rules support from BF will collapse.

Read: buy their minis so they can sell you a 4th edition! And a 5th! Yay!!!!

Got to give them credit for listening to their customers and responding quickly

More like, "got to give them credit for trying to pull a swifty, getting caught out and then backflipping (just a little bit), and trying to look all interested in their customers concerns".
Poppycock and Balderdash!

I like GeoffQRF's attitude.
I must look at getting some of his miniatures,….

Frankly the best solutions have already been mentioned, shift to indie competitions or move to other rules.

Yep!

+1 for Airborne – well said that man, I should not be made to feel guilty for exercising my choice as a consumer

"The success of the rules is based upon a large, in demand product range. Don't support the figure range and the rules support from BF will collapse.""

I for one think that this can only be good.

BF thinks that they are the only producers of World War II 15mm figures.

Well they are not and quite frankly there is so many other producers that make just as good if not better and are a way more cheaper.

So what do they do?

They come out and state that only their miniatures are legal for any FoW Event.

Well that went over well and I bet that even their fanboyz really did not like this.

Serve them right if they lose customers over this.

There are far better World War II rules out there. That actually give a game with a feel of World War II and not some bucket of dice game where all that you are doing is moving your parking lot tanks and rolling 30+ dice.

I think this is just lazy marketing.

Instead of saying "how can we compete better" they've simply decided to attempt to create a monopoly within their own game system.

And don't think the new 50% benchmark is the end of this. They'll try again.

"So John the OFM, according to your post they do not currently have a quality product? I agree they need to be a bit more competitive, but if you wan't a premium product then you should expect to pay a premium price. Also, what is wrong with them sanctioning their own championships? Doesn't mean I can't run my own championships as well!"

This isnt meant to be confrontational but why do people throw that out all the time? Perry miniatures is a premium product. I wouldnt call it premium pricing though. Same for MANY of the other historical manufacturers out there.

I would hate to see historicals move into the same arena as GW, which prices their items NOT as needed but based on a pure statistical spreadsheet where they can sell X amount of product to Y amount of consumers knowing that Z amount of customers will just up and quit but they still end up making more profit. For myself, I want games to be treated as such, as games and actually have the company produce things not solely for profit but because its fun for the gamers.

and actually have the company produce things not solely for profit

quickreactionforce.co.uk announces multipacks :-)

@darthfozzywig

but if you wan't a premium product then you should expect to pay a premium price.

That is the line GW fanboys swallowed and spat back out for years.

The sad part of this that it completely ignores the market that does not want or need a supposedly "premium product".

Even if one assumes that BF makes the best 15m metal/resin models, one has to ask himself is that what he really needs? The truth is if you take the world's best model and apply the average gamer's average painting/modeling skills to it then you get an average kind of final model on the game table in the end. So what's the point of starting "premium" only to end up with "average?" Would it not be better for most of us to just go "average" straight through the process? Especially if that's done at a significantly lower cost?

I really have no issue if BF wants to solely focus on what they think are "premium" products and try to get a premium price for them. If they don't want to get involved in the market segment were decent (average?) models at very reasonable are offered like is being done with plastics by PSC, Zveda, WGF, etc, that's fine. It's their choice and it's a choice I'm sure PSC and those "other guys" greatly appreciate.

BUT what I'm definitely not OK with is BF choosing to not get involved with that market segment, then artificially trying to limit it, then trying to blame their customers for the impact on their bottom line that occurs because they chose not to get involved in that market segment in the first place. It seems pretty clear to me that's what has played out here.

Maybe it's a bit like the automobile industry? BF can choose to try to be the Mercedes/Porsche/BMW and only produce premium products at a premium price, but if they do they may not long reign as the #1 manufacture in 15mm WW2. If they want to stay the #1 in this field then perhaps they might want to take the GM approach and offer both the "premium" type products (i.e. Cadillacs and Corvettes) and also more value driven products (good quality @ great prices) for the more wide scale application?

It will be very interesting to watch what happens as PSC, Zveda's, etc offerings in 15mm WWII plastic both increase and improve in quality.

quickreactionforce.co.uk announces multipacks :-)

You expand that list and I'll be in the car and outside your shop in 15 minutes, (ringing first of course as is the rules!)

(Namely Chaffee's then Cromwells and lastly Comets)

I just haven't got around to listing those yet.

Ah, I thought it was going to be a case of long waits for each new mold to get done.

In that case can I just give you a bell and then pop round and pick some up? (20 Chaffee's that is.)

It's interesting, the extent to which some gamers think this is fine. I guess it's the fact that so many of them came up in the hobby via GW, which seeks to limit and control what you can use, for purposes of their own profit.

I came up in historical miniatures and if you had made a similar pronouncement to historical gamers, they would laugh in your face. But the increasing dominance of GW seems to be changing that too.

That's part of it, but the more important part might be the domination of ex-GW senior manager(s) who think this is just a fine way to operate having too much influnece on the BF higher level decsions.

We never treat you with contempt within earshot :-)

Ill go list those Chaffees now…

So I see, many thanks.

(Enough of the OT, you lot can carry on with your BF bashing, don't you ever get bored?)

…along with the Comets and Cromwells…

Christ you don't hang about. I'll have to stick to 20 at a time my friend. Got to keep them away from the all seeing eye!

I'll go start on the German lists then :-)

Now them I have enough of!