"Battlefront Miniatures only" Topic

If Peter Pig, Fib and PSC miniatures are better and or cheaper, then why don't you use their rules systems to play WWII 15mm wargaming?

@Attila

I am a Wargamer. I have a collection of wargames models from a lot of companies. I have a collection of wargames rules from a lot of companies. I play any set of rules with any appropriate set of figures.

If one company happens to make a set of rules and a range of figures why should I be forced to use their figures for their rules. Surely the rules should be a profit centre just as the figures should be. The FoW rules are in general not given away for free (OK the V3 mini book was but…) many FoW players spend as much on the rules and supplements as they do on models. Are you telling me that this is not a profitable business? Are you telling me that it is impossible to run an event for 66% less than BF are charging for their next event in the UK and not make a loss because if you are then you really do not know what you are talking about.

I have run a business producing games. It made a profit. I have run tournaments with significantly lower entry fees than BF are demanding and they did not make a loss.

FWIW PSC are coming out with a set of wargame rules and I am probably going to at the very least look at them. If I like them I will buy them. If I really like them I may stop running FoW tournaments and that means that at least 5 tournaments will need a new organiser or they will stop and several others may need additional help when I move on to WWII pastures new.

Sorry for such a rant but I am starting to get a little annoyed. BF do not have a god given right to require people to use their models to play their game and in the past this has been stated repeatedly in public by their senior staff.

VonBurge wrote:
I'd even voluntarily replace my Peter Pig EW French Infantry with those horrible ones BF offers.
That would be very strange behaviour. Spend a lot of money to replace perfectly good toys with worse ones.
Takes all sorts I guess.

Don't be so quick to judge. It's a Souma squadron with all BF models except the one Peter Pig infantry platoon. Not a lot of money, just a token of my appreciation for them being willing to revise their policy if they can muster the strength to correct themselves.

Just a token, the real benefit they'd get would be my reengaging in active promotion and support of FoW.

If Peter Pig, Fib and PSC miniatures are better and or cheaper, then why don't you use their rules systems to play WWII 15mm wargaming?

I can certainly support those who pick and choose from what they perceive as the best components and mixing them to build the best gaming experience they can.

No problem with folks that use BF models to play other rules or folks using other models to play with FoW rules. It's all about choice! Let's keep that as wide open as possible!

"If Peter Pig, Fib and PSC miniatures are better and or cheaper, then why don't you use their rules systems to play WWII 15mm wargaming?"

Good idea…..

Here's the links….

peterpig.co.uk/rules.htm

link

No one is forcing you to use their figs exclusively.

But if you want to play in one of their sanctioned tournaments you have to use their figs. No one is forcing you to play in their tournaments.

Go into a cafe and start using their wi-fi without buying a coffee and see how long it takes for them to ask you to buy something or leave.
Or better yet Bring in food from outside and try to use their wi-fi.

I sell FoW. Not a big enough seller to warrant tournaments but we have had a lot of fun with mega battles.
If we were to run FoW tournaments I would let players use non-BF figs but wyswyg would be in effect.

Btw does Peter Pig sell to retailers?

jameshammyhamilton wrote:

BF do not have a god given right to require people to use their models to play their game and in the past this has been stated repeatedly in public by their senior staff.

They don't and they're not trying to. It ONLY applies to BF's official FoW tournaments. You can use other miniatures in your regular FoW games.

It costs BF to organize and run these sanctioned FoW tournaments, so if they allow the use of non-BF miniatures and models they are in fact benefiting the other companies' bottom line at their own expense. And why would they do that and 'slit their own throat?'

Do they do these tournaments for free? If I show up with a force assembled completely from their miniature line do I just go on in? Maybe they should just increase the fee for tournament entry.

robertsjf wrote:

Maybe they should just increase the fee for tournament entry.

Or use a complicated formula for tournament entry fee based on how many miniatures are BF versus non-BF. Players whose armies comprise a higher percentage of non-BF miniatures should pay a higher fee than those whose armies consist of solely BF minis or a higher proportion of BF minis. This would ensure that costs are borne equally and fairly by all involved.

I'm being a little facetious of course.

I honestly cannot see any argument that BF are running tournaments as a loss leader. There is no way that can be the case in the UK given the prices they charge. I can attend three tournaments at Maelstrom games run by the Reluctant Conscripts with good scenery, good umpiring and superb prize support from multiple manufacturers for the same price as attending two BF run events at the same place where I am unsure if the umpiring will be better than last year "just roll a dice" or if based on last years event the prize support will be anything like as good.

I run numerous tournaments and charge less than BF do. I don't do it to make a loss.

Sorry, the argument that they need the model sales to prop up the tournaments that they run does not wash.

Would it be OK to buy one 100% BF force for an event and then stick with the same force for year after year never spending another penny with them or do I have to get a new one each year?

In the long run it is all about choice and the change of the stance of BF. My feelings on this are not going to be changed.

Attila,
I know Brookhurst distributes PP in California. They're nice models. I'm not much of a fan of PBI myself. My WW2 stuff is all 28mm and 1/285th. I like the rules from Iron Ivan for 28mm and BKC for everything else.

I'd seriously look at PSC and Zevezda's 15mm stuff. It's so cheap that it's approaching the impulse purchase zone. If it were on a store shelf when I walked in it might not be there when I walked out and I could very well have a stack of unpainted 15mm stuff to add to my collection.

Battlegroup Kursk has the potential of biting hard into FOW when it's released. It's the reincarnation of Kampfgruppe Normandy, the short lived horribly supported GW WW2 release that, stunningly, was quite a good set of WW2 rules. Hopefully the publisher isn't as pigheaded as GW and actually allows it to be sold in hobby stores.

jameshammyhamilton:

Sorry, the argument that they need the model sales to prop up the tournaments that they run does not wash.

Of course BF isn't going to lose money in tournaments no matter what. It's probably not even a big portion of their overall earnings. Again, it's a matter of principle and one of fairness and equity. Other companies are getting a free ride, reaping big profits from the fruits of their labors (FoW) without putting in the capital and the 'blood, sweat and tears' they poured into it for the last 10 years.

You might say that FoW has become too successful for its own good, because it's benefiting other companies like PSC more than BF itself right now.

I think that the REAL problem here is that Battlefront for years had sponsored tournaments that allowed anybody's miniatures to be used.
This marked them as a more mature and friendlier company than Games Workshop.
I have congratulated them for their friendlier policy, and they reaped a lot of good will out of this.

Now, they have taken that away, and shown themselves not all that mature orv friendly.

So, why are they throwing away all the good will? That is something difficult to build up, easy to lose, and almost impossible to regain. And because some players were "upset" about playing against non-Battlefront figures? Are we supposed to swallow that? They should learn to lie better.

I wonder how this will play out. Not everyone is willing to throw out their PSC or Peter Pig or Old Glory figures and bow down.
How will the bad feelings manifest themselves?

Now, they have taken that away, and shown themselves not all that mature orv friendly.

So, why are they throwing away all the good will? That is something difficult to build up, easy to lose, and almost impossible to regain. And because some players were "upset" about playing against non-Battlefront figures? Are we supposed to swallow that? They should learn to lie better.

I think, John, it's simply because BF decided that 'playing nice' is no longer in its best interests. All it had accomplished so far was to allow other companies to cut deeper and deeper into its miniature side of the business. As we all know, that side of the business is more lucrative than the rules side.

At some point, BF has decided that 'enough is enough' and to draw a line somewhere. There will be negative 'blowback,' as the 200+ posts in this thread has shown, but apparently BF believes it to be 'acceptable loss.'

As to 'lying better,' what they're saying sounds better from a PR standpoint than stating the plain truth. That's what we're doing here.

OFM Said:

I have congratulated them for their friendlier policy, and they reaped a lot of good will out of this.

So, why are they throwing away all the good will?

Maybe they are afraid of agreeing with the OFM.

I'm not sure how much new revenue BF think insisting on all BF miniatures will bring in. Remember this is only in their own tournamants (currently…) and I guess many if not most players entering will have mainly BF figures in their army anyway. In terms of global annual sales the difference must be akin to a raindrop in a lake.

It seems to be more the PR nonsense excuses and look of taking a cheap shot that has ticked players off. Imagine someone who has spent £100.00 GBP's on BF figures for his army but has added £10.00 GBP of other brand infantry or a couple of other brand tanks to complete it. He might have been a stalwart tournament player but now the £100.00 GBP's he's spent with BF counts for nothing, the £10.00 GBP he spent with PSC counts for everything.

You must all abandon your PSC and other miniatures and use only BF from now on. Orthodoxy must be ensured, the inquisitors will see to it. Save yourself the shame of BF blasphemy!

Send then to me for ritual purification and disposal. Please ensure that you package them correctly and affix sufficient postage.

Fanboy from another forum.

I agree with the decision. THey wouldnt be doing it if it wasnt necessary. I love FoW and I will support it. I do not want to see it losing money. PSC and others will always be cheaper because they dont have any other costs. They dont provide us with anything and only exist because FoW does.

Nice to see they've got some highly articulate defenders.

Yeah, BF is finally brushing off the leeches riding on their coat tails.

Fanboy from another forum.

Has he been pummelled yet for that nonsense?

link?

This comes down to a business decision based on one of two scenarios:
1. BF is losing money, or
2. BF is not making as much money as they wish.

Since the books seem to be at premium price and the miniatures seem to be at premium price – based on the prices of other suppliers, if BF is losing money the problem would be in inputs, or costs. This is in the control of BF.

If the issue is #2, it could also be in input costs, ie research, running tournaments, etc. The problem could also be in customer selection away from BF products that disrupts sales forecasts resulting in a lower than expected or forecast profits.

It could also be a method of increasing the bottom line and discouraging the purchase of competitor products. This I find the most likely scenario, namely, stabilizing or increasing profits and adversely affecting the competition. Most business profit margins are quite small and if PSC, et al can be affected ted, even for a short period of time, they might be forced out, or at least forced to reduce the pace of development and release.

Regards,
An humble strategic business consultant

They dont provide us with anything and only exist because FoW does.

There has been 15mm, or 1/100 WW2 stuff since the last century. The last millenium!
In fact, when Battlefront first came out with 15mm WW2, wasn't there an awful scandal about plagiarism and re-casting?
Or, are we not allowed to discuss that unseemly episode?
Like the Kennedys are not the offspring of a bootlegging mobster.

I must say, BF has a fine brand of Kool-Aid. Such loyalty is making the North Koreans jealous.

Well JP and all the other BF folks, far too many who are cast-offs from the evil empire at GW. Think of ALL the money BF will save in another year, or so, when you decide to print and give away the new v4 Rulebook.

You'll still be in business then, won't you?

Yes, many FOW players around the world are LTAO tonight at your inbred stupidity! Next thing you know, BF will be blaming all this on the former Bush Administration! Wonder how that will work out for them? LMAO!

Fanboy from another forum.

Has he been pummelled yet for that nonsense?

If its that "Omnijackle" dude…yes he's getting a lot of flak from other BF forum members. Most folks that seem to have posted on the BF forums have been very negative about this evlolution. This cat and couple of others are trying to match the negaive volume on thier own overly postive support.

I really don't care about this issue since I don't even play FoW, but I don't blame BF for its change of heart, if it even constitutes one in the first place since nowhere in JP's statement mentions that other minis will be allowed in BF tournaments. People assumed his comment can be generalized to include official BF events, but that's an erroneous assumption. You give a dime and people expect a dollar.

But what's really at issue is that BF believes that other companies (okay, PSC specifically) are benefiting at its expense. If FoW didn't become such a hit, PSC minis and kits would not be selling like hotcakes the way they are now, trumping BF's own sales. Of course 15mm WWII gaming existed long before FoW, but it wasn't nearly as popular until FoW came along. Now other companies are riding on the coat tails of its success and making a lot of money thanks to its rules.

So BF is powerless to stop them altogether, but at least it can still ban them from its own events. Dano de Mano is right, it's just business. Their unpopular decision may backfire on them, but doing nothing may be worse because it means accepting the failure of the miniature side of their business and doing only rule books once every 5 years or so. Should they fold and accept this reality? It doesn't appear they are prepared to roll over and give up on releasing miniatures just yet.

people are not buying other brands of WWII models simply because they are cheaper. There have been cheaper alternatives the whole time BF have been in existance
They are buying the alternatives because they are perceived as better value.
That is their quality is comparable (in some cases better – insert list of BF modelling disasters here) but price and felexibilty (multiple turrets versions inc in price) is better.
The Soviets tried a closed economic system look how well that worked LOL

28mm Fanatik – BF could try offering their customers better value than their competitors. It‘s worked wonders for PSC. BF‘s new policy suggests they can‘t or just can‘t be bothered.

I truly beleive that a lot of people look at bF stuff through fow tinted glasses and that is a big reason that they have such brand loyalty. That seems to be switching to Brand disappointment and boycott.

I notice BF are still putting news items on this page?

Why? This is a page for the wargaming hobby.

They seem to have decided theirs is a different hobby altogether….

I buy non BF models because for me the are better value. Occasionally I buy some BF models, mainly because I can't get them elsewhere.

I will accept that BF customer care is the best I have experienced but and it is a very big but that is only because I have never had to contact customer support for any of the other companies models I have bought because I have never had any miscasts from the competition……….

BF are perfectly within their rights to demand 100% bf models at their events but for me I think it is a stupid way to try to compete.

If BF made what I consider the best value WWII stuff then I would buy it. Sadly they don't.

This whole episode is seriously making me look at other WWII rulesets and I suspect that if I switch ships I will take a few players with me. I also suspect that if I switch ships then there will be a reduction in the number of FoW tournaments in the UK.

I seriously don't see what the big deal is. We all knew before this announcement that Battlefront were a GW inspired business. If they wish to refer to their game as "the FoW hobby" that is fine with me – I don't play FoW, have no interest in playing FoW, don't really see FoW as a WWII ruleset any more than chess is a wargame, and I'm not a tournament player. I field some Battlefront models in my 15mm armies. I'll continue to buy their models if they appeal to me and I see them as good value.

I think they are reacting too late to the plastic phenomenon, and should have been listening to VFM complaints from their customer base much earlier. And now they are paying the price for being the biggest, not so nimble, kid on the block.

But essentially my reaction is "who cares" – I live in North London and have no FLGS. I mostly buy from eBay or Salute once a year. I prefer scenario driven games, and WWII is just one period I play. I'm probably a fairly typical purchaser.

Tom Wise spoke up a few minutes ago on the BF forum.

"I've read through and been following this thread since it started and this best sums up how a feel about this issue. I use to buy anything that BF produced, but that has changed. The quality of the product has gone down hill since the days of Seth. I have started looking at other manufacturers and purchasing their models when they are of a higher quality. For me price doesn't factor into my decision, I want the best model available. BF use to be that source, they no longer are.

I'm constantly getting email's from my supplier asking me if I want to pre-order the new BF releases. If it's a vehicle I'll pre-order, if it has a foot figure in it I tell him I have to see the figure first before I'll buy it. Ninety percent of the time I pass on the new foot figures and look for another source.

I do play in tournaments and run tournaments, but not to the level of Bill and Jon. I've given away and donated $1,000 USD's of painted figures to promote BF in my tournamenet and to help my FLGS, no more. I've purchased most of the early war line and was so discussed with the foot figures I can't waste the time to paint them and I have purchased replacement figures from other manufactures which I was planning in using in tournaments. I don't like being told that I have to use sub-standard figures if I want to play in a BF tournament. For me it's not about playing, but collecting and painting so I'll be giving up the tournament seen.

I was one of the buyers that have been burned by all the production mistakes and BF has corrected them (Easy 8 threads, 7 left treads, 3 right treads, etc). I'm still grinding and sanding on 30 of the new Panther G's to get them to fit. But, I didn't report them to BF as I didn't want them to go through the cost of sending me replacements.

Sorry for the long post, I don't usually post this lengthy of a response.

Tom Wise"

I think they are going to sacrifice the whole franchise for this effort.

Posted By John-Paul on 15 Jul 2012 12:07 AM link

Given the nature of this debate and just how many complaints and moderator action requests this is creating, in a normal week i get six or seven reports of forum abuse and today alone I have had 67, my phone is literally pinging every few minutes with another deleted post with swearing and rudeness that is simply unacceptable no matter how heated people feel. This is not a fourm that allows these extremes of behaviour and it simply cant be tolerated.

I would like to ask you all to stop posting for long enough to calm down a little. I ask this rather than simply locking the thread to show you that Pete are trying to take on board the comments that are being made so we can think about how to respond but if this behaviour continues there will be no place to be heard and that is not what any of us want. This is obvisouly very contentious and I would like the chance respond in some professional way. Please save your thoughts, by all means read what has gone before and give us until tomorrow, it is midnight here in NZ, to reply as that is what is called for here and Pete and I will discuss this tomorrow monring and I will post an update on the topic when I have something to say.

Wow as Tom Wise buys 10% of the entire BF output this has obviously got to J-P :)
He said look at who we are and what we have done – and obviously people took him at his word but not in the way he intended!
Well said Tom

I think they are going to sacrifice the whole franchise for this effort.

Yep. That will be the second miniatures company going down the tube like that. GW being the first…

If Peter Pig, Fib and PSC miniatures are better and or cheaper, then why don't you use their rules systems to play WWII 15mm wargaming?

I'm old enough to remember a time when game companies wrote rules, miniatures companies cast miniatures and gamers decided which models to use on the tabletop. My how times have changed.

The GW/FoW model of a vertically integrated industry controlling all aspects or your 'hobby' may work for the newly initiated to the hobby. It certainly makes starting out very easy, compared to the 'old school' approach. But it never appealed to me.

Why? When Flames of War was released, I already had several sets of WWII rules from different publishers AND a large collection of 15mm models with which to game. Command Decision gave a good game that felt right. Spearhead let you play large games. Crossfire was there for small skirmish games. WRG was fun for massive tank battles. Heck, we even used Tank Charts and Battleground at one time or another. And there were some many MORE rules to choose from. Don't tell me that FoW somehow 'invented' 15mm WWII gaming. My recollection was that by the late 90's 15mm WWII was rapidly becoming THE hot period (Thank you, Saving Private Ryan!)

At that time I had models from Quality Castings, Old Glory/Skytrex, Gaming Models and even some Battlefront models. Sure, there were the odd gaps in product availability, but that's where you had to start modelling and converting existing kits.

Certainly there is a place for FoW in the wargaming hobby. They are well positioned to get the youngsters engaged in the hobby. But as a member of that hobby, I'll strongly challenge the statement that 15mm WWII begins and ends with FoW. There was a 15mm WWII hobby before FoW and I expect it will continue long after FoW fades.

If I were to be an optimist, I hope the FoW team can rise to the challenge offered by competitors and provide a superior product at a good value.

This story seems oddly appropriate

link

Another "this is the ironic part" observaton.

Had this been their policy from the very beginning, no one would care. GW (and others) have set the precedent for that. But they were sort of "handicapped" by the fact that there was already a robust WW2 manufacturing industry, with "large" manufacturers like Old Glory, Peter Pig, QRF, etc. BF was one of the little boys in the market.
So, when they started "The Flames of War Hobby™" (this phrase reeks of the same arrogance that GW has, but I digress), they were selling to an audience that already HAD rather large collections. They went along and allowed them to play.

(Is there a Command Decision Hobby™? )

Had BF NOT invented "The Flames of War Hobby™", and tried to sell their miniaturew on their merits, the company would have gone bankrupt. Their prices are AT LEAST 25% higher than that of the competition, and in many cases 300% higher. There is no discernible difference in quality that would justify this.
I am speculating that a lot of their sales at exorbitant prices are driven by those loyal to the game and company itself. It would be interesting to see a scientific survey or a breakdown of all models used in the US Nationals. Or the IK NAtionals. Or the Malaysian Nationals.
Outsourcing production to the Third World does not seem to have had an effect on price. Their cheapest competitor manufactures in the USA!

I don't play in tournaments, let alone "official" tournaments, but the other 5 in my group do play in regionals. I haven't had a chance to discuss this with any oif them.

GW (and others) have set the precedent for that.

So, GW started the same as BF. In fact, GW used to be a full featured game shop that sold not only GW products but also TSR products and various other board and wargames. On or about 1991, they discontinued selling the non-GW items and changed to the GW that we know and love today. I think they did not get clobbered by the fury of the internet because there was not an internet to speak of.

It's great to see that the FoW community at large is against this policy's implemenation and willing to take a stand…many "movers and shakers" in the game are willing to just walk away.

It's great to see the JP/BF is taking time to consider the input they are getting.

I will say no more on the subject until he's had a chance to reply.

Cheers, VB

Do Soumas have turrents?

Anyway, five pages later and still

(Is there a Command Decision Hobby™? grin)

If there is a FoW hobby, I think you can make a case that there is.

John – actually their cheapest competitor (PSC) manufacturers in the UK..

But talking to my FLGS owner who stocks a lot of FoG and PSC, he can't understand why anyone buys a BF Sherman.

He points out the PSC stuff, but states that there are some fanboys out there who just want to buy the brand, irrespective of cost or indeed quality.

One thing BF has going for it is packaging product to fit the unit structures of their rules. You don't end up needing one more this or with two extra thats for the most part. For FoW players there has to be some attraction to that.

John – actually their cheapest competitor (PSC) manufacturers in the UK..

I am going by my own experience.
A standard average tank, say a Sherman, sells for $12 USD from Battlefront.
Old Glory sells a bag of 3 for $25. USD Apply the 40% discount from the Army Card, and that comes out to $5 USD for a tank, OF COMPARABLE QUALITY.
PSC came out too late for me, since my M4 and M4A1 Shermans were already complete. I have not priced them in my market.
Heck, I will "need" M4A3 (76) soon, so I might give it a go.
I might note that I can also get Zvezda tanks for $3.50 USD and Gaming Models for $4. USD

Basically, we are paying for Battlefront box art, which is hardly essential for game play.

When Battlefront was white resin and boxed and pre-fow, They were considered to be overpriced when they cost the same as the lead models from other manufacturer's…..And they were, even thought they were on occasion the better model.

Apparently grey resin must be so much more expensive…..

When Battlefront was white resin and boxed and pre-fow, They were considered to be overpriced when they cost the same as the lead models from other manufacturer's…..And they were, even thought they were on occasion the better model.

I had a few of the pre-FoW models. I thought they were pretty good value for the price. Back then, OG did not have the army card or a huge 40% off so the tanks were just a little less expensive. I think OG was about $4 USD per vehicle and BF was something like $5.50 USD.

Besides, lets face it. Our hobby is pretty over-priced.

I stopped playing FOW years ago (to many odd quirks in my opinion that ignore history) so this doesn't affect me, however, Battlefront definitely needs a reality check
If you were to ask 99 percent of people, most would not have even heard of our gamming Hobby Let alone the FOW hobby nor could they care less. Whatever way you wish to look at it, Miniature gaming has always been a niche hobby and probably always will be. I am often amazed at how arrogant some gaming companies have become in their quest for the bigger piece of the market pie. The astounding thing is that compared to other markets this pie is no bigger than a Peanut Butter cup, The only reason that the large corporations (Mattel, Hasbro, Sony) don't take a real interest in the miniature hobby is that its not worth their while.

I've been collecting late-war US and Germans for 20+ years, so most of my collection pre-dates Battlefront (mostly Quality Castings and Old Glory). I dabbled in FoW 1st and 2nd editions but never really got into it. Now that FoW has reached the late war in earnest with BGG and the Bulge, I took the plunge. I bought the Achtung! set for the rules, bought FoW stands to re-base my infantry, bought a token set, bought 'codexes'. I've bought a few FoW vehicles at my FLGS to fill in gaps in my collection. So in the past few months I've spent a fair amount of cash on "the FoW Hobby."

I'll probably never play in a Battlefront-run tournament, and I plan to continue using my existing collection of non-Battlefront minis to play FoW. Even so, I'm not in favor of Battlefront's recent announcement, especially since it reflects a complete 180 from their previous long-standing policy. It smacks of arrogance, IMHO.

"Besides, lets face it. Our hobby is pretty over-priced."

Well, I am probably now of the mind that everything is in fact massively underpriced.

I know of a range of 28mm figures commissioned purely to get the guys the range they wanted. The price of the figures he must sell at are almost exactly the manufacturing cost. There is next to no profit margin..he cannot give them to retailer's because there is no discount available and he actually sells them through a mates company who just distribues themn as a favour because he also wanted the range.

His stratagy is that he gets the figures in lieu of his original investment and funds the expansion of the range by selling painted figures!

Here is a fow overpriced item,,,,,

Russian painted church 22 pounds
link

many a wargamer will pick it up and say "expensive!!!"

Here is a collectable, painted. but a one peice casting and almost the same price.
link

It is about 10-12mm scale.

Now, Interestingly, Total Battle miniatures do a building almost exactly this plan size. but proper 15mm for 8 poumnds unpainted and 20 pounds painted. even they are cheaper than lillipu Lane on a discount.

TBM's wargaming product is I would suggest a much better quality and sculpted product and is markedly bigger yet even the fully painted version is chaper than the collectable.

The TBM page is also a good guage of the value of the BF church….The unpainted TBM church model is 20 pounds unpainted and is almost what the BF price is for a basic paint job.

the basic truth is that if you consider the cost of things outside the wargamer market, figures, buildings , terrain are actually being givcn away!

Well, I am probably now of the mind that everything is in fact massively underpriced.

I have difficulty believing that simply because manufactures have been able to undercut BF's prices since the beginning. These companies have not gone out of business.

Instead, we see new companies with different and better manufacturing processes rising up and making better and better stuff (PSC).

If BF is incurring a cost somewhere that the competitors are not, then they are doing inefficiently and need to change. Or they could simply be doing an Apple, and have been profit taking for years.

But either way, its a very hard sell to say that "everything" is overpriced when other companies keep managing to produce better and better stuff for cheaper. Much more likely that they are simply trying harder for the hobby dollars.

Shan