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Action Log

27 Jul 2012 7:44 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

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Steve W12 Jul 2012 1:35 a.m. PST

Just seen a post on the FOW site saying that from next year only Battlefront Miniatures will be allowed at Offical FOW tournaments…Just wondered what people thought and do you think that will include scenery as well?

Tin Soldier Man12 Jul 2012 1:47 a.m. PST

I think it is indicative of them being badly rattled by the Plastic Soldier Company.

kiltboy12 Jul 2012 1:52 a.m. PST

For an official tournament only.
Not unreasonable given their argument that it is a business after all. If the FLGS or club started getting the same idea for club nights/ pick up gaming then that would be bad.


(Stolen Name)12 Jul 2012 1:56 a.m. PST

Thats what the BF Ranger policy is about kiltboy – they are one step ahead of you!

Derek H12 Jul 2012 1:57 a.m. PST


"The final change we are making is that from the new season all the events we run with will be only allowing Battlefront miniatures to be used. This is bound to cause some debate, so let me be clear as to why we have chosen to go down this path. Joe, Gareth and our events cost a great deal of money to run: a little over a quarter of a million American dollars this year alone. And, although it seems childish to draw a line in the sand and say, "If you want to play at our events and support the FOW hobby, you should not be bringing other people's models along," it is absolutely that simple. Our business is a business and we want Flames Of War to grow; we intend to give it the best support we can, but this support has a cost.

Earthquake12 Jul 2012 2:00 a.m. PST

"support the FOW hobby"

So, it's no longer 15mm World War II wargaming, but the FoW hobby. Where have I heard that before?

MajorB12 Jul 2012 2:02 a.m. PST

and support the FOW hobby

what is this "FOW hobby" of which they speak?

Of course the simple answer is that if you have armies that include other manufacturers' models, then don't play in any of BF's official events. If enough players boycott in this way then BF will learn the error of their ways.

Or maybe not …

(Stolen Name)12 Jul 2012 2:10 a.m. PST

Part of John-Pauls response to the protests

Try and look at the big picture, remember who we are, what we have done and how FOW got here and then just decide if that is your hobby or not as you shoud want to support your hobby and if this or any other decison we make has you changing your mind then we wish you all the best and thank you for your business but we will still be here doing our best and behaving the way we always have.

I am speechless at the sheer arrogance
Found the solution I have unsubscribed from the BF forms


Frothers Did It And Ran Away12 Jul 2012 2:16 a.m. PST

He really said that? Holy cow.

When a company says to its customers "you owe us" it surely can't be a sign that all is well.

I wonder if PFC ought to bring out their own ruleset. Perhaps calling it Fire of War or Flames of Combat? Really rub it in evil grin

lcannard12 Jul 2012 2:21 a.m. PST

As long as they keep making the best 15mm infantry, I'll keep buying BF. But this does leave a sour taste in my mouth. It's these sort of things are the reason I refuse to buy anything GW.

Cherno12 Jul 2012 2:22 a.m. PST

"The FOW hobby"… I am speechless.

Personal logo Doms Decals Sponsoring Member of TMP12 Jul 2012 2:26 a.m. PST

As long as they keep making the best 15mm infantry, I'll keep buying BF.

I couldn't agree more. I more or less stopped buying BF when the British paras came out…. Still like a lot of their vehicles, but "best 15mm infantry" is a wistful memory – they steadily got worse as Peter Pig got better….

Sane Max12 Jul 2012 2:29 a.m. PST

'Daddy, when was World War Two? I looked in my encylopedia, but it's not there?'

"World…? ahhhh…yes, it's the Old Name for 'Flames Of War the Hobby'


Fat Wally12 Jul 2012 2:29 a.m. PST

A massive 'own goal' on the part of BF. Unbelievably arrogant and clearly they've been rattled by PSC, FiB and Zvezda.

CPT Jake12 Jul 2012 2:35 a.m. PST

Not a decision I like, but it IS their business. If it works for them, hooah. If not, they are good enough business folks to adjust as needed.

In the mean time, paint up a few Old Glory or Plastic Soldier Company or QRF models so you can sneak them into your opponents army and get him DQed.

just kidding

Tarty2Ts12 Jul 2012 2:37 a.m. PST

Don't see any problem with that, their comp, their mini's and their rules.
I'm sure there'll be other comps that aren't official.

Samulus12 Jul 2012 2:37 a.m. PST

Why the hell can't they just grow up and adjust their business model? If someone creates plastic kits of a high quality and you're making good, but incredibly expensive metal and resin kits, maybe you should be making plastic kits? You know, like all the other successful companies like Victrix, Perry, Warlord, GW, ring any bells?
Maybe its not the customers fault and they don't 'owe you', you just need to sort out your own damn product so they can logically justify buying it.

jacksarge12 Jul 2012 2:38 a.m. PST

I wonder if PFC ought to bring out their own ruleset. Perhaps calling it Fire of War or Flames of Combat? Really rub it in

I assume you mean PSC? Well yes they are bringing out their own rules- Battlegroup Kursk, followed by Battlegroup Normandy etc., which they are pitching at 15mm & 20mm.

Sounds like a slightly desparate move by FoW- however I suspect they have missed a few boats anyway- like plastics.

Mr Elmo12 Jul 2012 2:38 a.m. PST

With Historicon coming up, it would be nice to see the ENTIRE group of participants refuse to play. As in, "Suppose They Gave a Tournament and Nobody Came." just to show BF what the players think this of this move.

Cricket chirps in the tournament hall would be hilarious. Sadly, I think the FoW fanboys at the tournament have noses so Battlefront Brown they actually think this is a great idea.

MikeHobbs12 Jul 2012 2:39 a.m. PST

oh dear

if only he had said something like:-
If you want to play at our events and support Battlefront as a company

then people would understand, but he didn't and came across as arrogant as eveyone else has said.

I wonder what the next step will be?

rct7500112 Jul 2012 2:41 a.m. PST

Just wait for KG Kursk and then you can drop them completely.

(Stolen Name)12 Jul 2012 2:42 a.m. PST

Next step?

Invade Poland if I am not mistaken……..

nigelstock12 Jul 2012 2:43 a.m. PST

PSC are bringing out thier own rule set: battlegroup kursk.

It sounds like they will be using the warhammer/FOW model: a core rule book followed by a bunch of theatre/date specific modules.

Take a listen to meeplesand miniatures podcast no. 90 where he chats to the PSC head man.

As for the announcement, it stinks! players will already have bought the rules and (probably) a number of supplements ( a considerate cash outlay) and will probably have some BF models. I use mainly PSC and zvezda but I will need some BF stuff.

Mind you, maybe skytrex has the stuff I need?

BF definatly seem to be going the GW road, pity.

jacksarge12 Jul 2012 2:45 a.m. PST

I'ts come too late for me, I sold all my BF 15mm stuff anyway. Only keeping three books & some of their excellent Battlefield in a Box stuff.
Battlegroup Kursk looks like it should be great fun and you could use your old BF figures;)

Lion in the Stars12 Jul 2012 2:46 a.m. PST


Does this mean that BF is finally going to release all the minis for the options that they don't have?

Stephens12312 Jul 2012 2:53 a.m. PST

I don't think this is going to play out well. I understand their point of view, My game My toys but from what I have observed most players have blended armies, mostly BF but some Old Glory, PSC, etc. I have an Italian army, French Army, German army, American army, and some British. 95% are BF. One of the main reasons for using other mfgs. models has been that BF often lags behind in producing models for units on lists (e.g. French AT portees (not avail until almost year after Early War lists came out), Italian Air (MC 202 Folgore), Finish Air (Ju 88s), etc). It is the arms race that drives the hobby, always looking for that unbeatable list, or unit, or army for a period. Nope, this is not going to go over well at all. I hope they will reconsider.

MWright12 Jul 2012 2:53 a.m. PST

Does this mean I can no longer use my Eureka Sci Fi Germans as "REALLY Late War" troops?


Steve W12 Jul 2012 2:59 a.m. PST

Maybe they'll take a step back and allow any antipodean manufactured figure

VonTed12 Jul 2012 3:01 a.m. PST

Seems like a bad move, but then I have zero intention of playing in any tournaments. Whatever.

Dynaman878912 Jul 2012 3:06 a.m. PST

Well, not too long ago someone was commenting how FOW was not like that "other" company that forced you to use "their" minis in a game, and that they never could…

jameshammyhamilton12 Jul 2012 3:12 a.m. PST

To think I used to stand up for BF and some of their actions on this forum. This one though looks like the end of the line.

I like the game, I will still play the game but I will not try to defend BF policy in any way.

Rommel Rocks12 Jul 2012 3:22 a.m. PST

Well said, jeamshammyhamilton.

I will follow your lead.

Derek H12 Jul 2012 3:23 a.m. PST

Dynaman8789 wrote:

Well, not too long ago someone was commenting how FOW was not like that "other" company that forced you to use "their" minis in a game, and that they never could…

Prince Rupert of the Rhine12 Jul 2012 3:30 a.m. PST

Haven't GW had this policy for years? They seem to be doing ok despite of it. Battlefront is basically GW with WW2 hence the fact they employ the same bussiness model is no massive surprise.

Just like GW with fantasy and sci-fi there are plenty of other rule sets and options out there for WW2 so just use one of them instead of getting upset about Battlefront.

Ken Portner12 Jul 2012 3:31 a.m. PST

I'm going to sound a dissenting note from the group.

I don't see any problem at all with a company staging an event and requiring you to use their products in that event.

They're a business, it's their livelihood, and they want to promote it.

I'm astounded that people find this objectionable.

And no, I don't play FOW (anymore) and don't work for the
, etc.

jacksarge12 Jul 2012 3:32 a.m. PST

Dynaman8789 wrote:

Well, not too long ago someone was commenting how FOW was not like that "other" company that forced you to use "their" minis in a game, and that they never could…

One of these then?

jameshammyhamilton12 Jul 2012 3:39 a.m. PST

"I don't see any problem at all with a company staging an event and requiring you to use their products in that event."

Someone running an event can set any rules they want. Surely though if someone is running an event then it should be run at break even at least. I run lots of events, I have never run one at a significant loss but I do give my time for free so perhaps I am running at a loss on that basis. If I wanted paying for my time then I would have to charge more but for the European Grand Tournament BF are charging £18.00 GBP per head more than the seemingly similar events run by independents at the same venue. I suspect that more than pays the wages of the staff involved for the time they are spending on the event.

Long and short is that when one part of a business is having to prop up other parts of the business there is something fundamentally wrong somewhere.

IMO BF should be at least three different business units, rules and supplements, models and events. Each should aim to run at a profit. Perhaps the marketing budget from the models part of the company could be spent to get things in the rules and the events. Anyway, it is not my business and it is their call.

Schogun12 Jul 2012 3:42 a.m. PST

So now when a player presents his force for a game, an FoW "judge" will have to examine every figure and vehicle???

Finding the plastic vehicles should be easy though.

uberbyford12 Jul 2012 3:57 a.m. PST

Well It is kinda fair enough for them to say that I guess. Their event their rules.

Will it affect a lot of people though? Most people are very disparaging of the FoW events and say everyone there is a BF fanatic so chances are it wont affect them too much.
I do however feel sorry for the people who own little to no BF stuff and now cant play in the tournaments.
I've never partaken in a FoW event, but then i'm only really buying BF infantry nowadays.

kevanG12 Jul 2012 4:01 a.m. PST

You know , this isn't much of a mistake….competition gamers are the exception rather than the norm….the positive impact on their sales will be miniscule, the negative view of their behaviour will be negative to broader usage fow players only. It will not actually affect a massive number of their customers in any way.

That said, I do not see this as fair at all to that group, especially where the competitions are fairly small in the first place, the player loss could make things unsustainable for all.

I doubt this will be sustainable in the UK for example while it may be workable in the USA or Austrailia.

PiersBrand12 Jul 2012 4:04 a.m. PST

Anyone for a game of Battlegroup Kursk then?

You can use any models ya like… ;)

McWong7312 Jul 2012 4:13 a.m. PST

Considering BF doesn't run any official events in Australia the impact is negligible.

Telling their customers that its actually not their hobby but FoW's…different story. Could go either way for them.

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP12 Jul 2012 4:14 a.m. PST

To them, it is not about wargaming, or WWII wargaming, it is about branding the FOW line and the "FOW hobby". I got off the FOW train a long time ago, but I understand their branding concept. How many people actually play in these official tourneys? I'm guessing a really small percentage of FOW gamers, who will either vote with their wallet and buy all of the BF stuff they need, or vote with their feet and walk away.

uberbyford12 Jul 2012 4:23 a.m. PST

I'd vote with my wallet. As I say I think its only infantry that BF are quite competitive in, and once FiB get a bigger range…
They can call it the FoW hobby if they like but its already Bleeped texted off a lot of people on here (myself included).

Height of arrogance that.

SFC Retired12 Jul 2012 4:27 a.m. PST

I am not a Tourny regular but have played in a few over the years. As many of you know I have also run a yearly themed tournament at FT Lee the past 7 years…

I am very sorry to hear the new policy as I have had many players fight with well painted non-BF products.

About 85% of my collection of over 5K of 15mm WWII figs and AFVs are BF.

Just one more reason I have Flamed out on FoW and have only played once since last January?

SFC Retired

(Stolen Name)12 Jul 2012 4:34 a.m. PST

Schogun said
So now when a player presents his force for a game, an FoW "judge" will have to examine every figure and vehicle???

Finding the plastic vehicles should be easy though

Its easy put it in water if it floats its a witch burn the tank
But is it sinks they have put lead weights in the plastic and its still a witch burn it!

Cherno12 Jul 2012 4:38 a.m. PST

I believe the announcement wouldn't be that big of a deal if they had just stated that they don't want other manufacturer's miniatures at their tournaments, which is really not unresonable, it's not like those tournaments are the only way to play the game, far from it. What aggravates a lot of folks, though, is that the announcement includes the infamous words "The FOW Hobby", a practice GW has been ridiculed by gamers for decades now.

Henrix12 Jul 2012 4:40 a.m. PST

How sad. An unfair way of trying to win over the competition, instead of doing it on quality and price.

When I saw the pricing of their new plastics I thought they must have lost something.

Ah, well, the events I occasionally play in aren't official, so it won't matter. Most folks here have stuff from all manner of companies.

Dynaman878912 Jul 2012 4:42 a.m. PST

> So now when a player presents his force for a game, an FoW "judge" will have to examine every figure and vehicle???

Yup, they have to judge how badly cast it is to decide if it is badly cast enough… (Unfair jab, yes, the FOW para command set I bought was lovely stuff – but some of their stuff is dreadful – especially for the premium they charge)

Who asked this joker12 Jul 2012 4:42 a.m. PST

I am neither a GW or FoW player and have never played in an official tournament but am curious. How does an official tournament work? I've never played in one. GW for instance, simply don't allow non-GW figures in their shops. That covers a good portion of it. But what about FoW? BF does not actually have shops…at least not world wide. So, do they have a commissar from BF come to observe the "official" tournament? Speaking of "official" what makes the tournament official? What is different from that tournament vs a non-official tournament?



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