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"Warhammer 40k 6th Edition Overwatch" Topic


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5,351 hits since 3 Jul 2012
©1994-2014 Bill Armintrout
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Mithmee Supporting Member of TMP03 Jul 2012 7:01 p.m. PST

5th Edition was all about getting into Close Combat and killing your opponent off.

Well with the addition of Overwatch this can be not as easy as it once was.

An unit of 6 Blood Angels Assault Marines just might not have enough guys if they decide to charge a unit of Combined Imperial Guard (3-4 Squads Combined into one big nasty unit)

Back in 5th Edition these 6 Marines would very quickly shred the Guardsmen in about 1-2 rounds of close Combat.

But now these Guardsmen will be putting out dozens of shots. An unit of 30 with three Flamers will have 54 Las Gun shots and three x d3 Flamer hits.

If it gets a better than average (I.E. 9 Las Guns hits and 6 Flamer hit being average) number of hits like 20+ the Marine could lose a few guys before they even got into base to base.

Then if your Guardsmen are in terrain where the Marines end up being Intiative "1" they could lose a few more after the Guardsmen pile in.

This one rule could be the biggest change and impact on the game.

Since units that were expect to die a very horrible death in Close Combat could bring alot of pain to unit that is charging them.

So what the Marine player will need to do is charge that unit with a Dreadnought which could take the shots and then charge first and then with the Marines.

Just hope that these units doesn't have Las Cannons or Meltaguns that get in a Lucky hit on the Dreadnought.

Personal logo Ron W DuBray Supporting Member of TMP03 Jul 2012 7:40 p.m. PST

Close Combat should be a act of last resort in a game that has guns as the basic weapon used and almost imposable to get into.

In the American civil war close combat was ultimately responsible for less than one percent of battlefield casualties

sillypoint03 Jul 2012 8:05 p.m. PST

As an aside, wasn't tinned food more effective at causing casualties in ACW. Back to the topic, does this mean a Baneblade gets to shoot in the first round on over watch, even though it does not move first?

Berlichtingen03 Jul 2012 8:46 p.m. PST

I can't believe I'm about to do this, and Carl is likely to rise up from his grave and kick me squarely in the fork for it…

Clauswitz wrote of the destructive act and the decisive act. The destructive act in his time was musketry and cannon fire, and the purpose is to inflict loss and wear down the enemy. The decisive act in his time was often massed cavalry charges, or assaults by the reserve, with the purpose of breaking the enemy and ultimately winning the day. The two acts still apply today.

It sounds like WH40k has finally gotten in step with the reality of warfare. So instead of your 6 Assault Marines dicing and slicing with impunity, you have to wear down the target with ranged fire first. Sounds like a huge improvement to me.

palaeoemrus Inactive Member03 Jul 2012 9:02 p.m. PST

Sounds like a return to 2nd edition to me.

Baggy Sausage Supporting Member of TMP03 Jul 2012 9:32 p.m. PST

So Orks and Genestealers got nerfed.

basileus66 Supporting Member of TMP03 Jul 2012 10:31 p.m. PST

So Orks and Genestealers got nerfed.

Not exactly, but you will need a cheap, expendable unit to charge the enemy before your elite unit does. That way your opponent won't be able to shot your elite close combat unit to pieces.

Insomniac03 Jul 2012 11:36 p.m. PST

No troops have been 'nerfed'.

Generals will just have to use a little skill and think about tactics for the first time, in order to make the best use of their troops.

Mithmee Supporting Member of TMP03 Jul 2012 11:56 p.m. PST

Orks no I do not think that they got nerfed. Since they do have largest units that could soak up some fire.

Genestealers on the other hand might have gotten nerfed. Nids will have to think about what they are trying to do.

Because small units of Genestealers will get shot to pieces charging in against an unit that has not been soften up first.

Mick A04 Jul 2012 2:37 a.m. PST

Only the unit being charged gets to fire so only ten guard, not the whole company.

Mick

basileus66 Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 3:51 a.m. PST

As Mick says.

What happens now is that you will need to think about how you will deploy your units, and what will be the composition -the balance- of your army. May be you want some specialists squads, with four flamers, to deploy them in front of your more fragile laser-gun guys; as they won't need roll to hit, they are perfect to stop charges in its tracks.

The power of Overwatch is that you shot when the charge is declared, i.e. before your enemy actually moves his miniatures. Then, he will be forced to eliminate the wounded and not saved miniatures, following the rules of proximity to assign wounds and eliminate miniatures. THEN he will roll the dices to see how far his unit will charge. If you get lucky he can fail to charge and then you will have ANOTHER round of shooting, this time with your full BS.

Now, making an assault is something that you need to think about and prepare carefully, to optimize your chances to destroy your opponent. Still, dedicated assault units (particularly, terminators) will be very powerful.

Chief Lackey Rich Supporting Member of TMP Fezian04 Jul 2012 4:13 a.m. PST

Only the unit being charged gets to fire so only ten guard, not the whole company.

Current iteration of the Guard can take the squads in a platoon and weld them together into a massed unit of infantry for the duration of the game they act as a single unit for all purposes. They'd all fire when charged, and they'd all try to pile in.

Manflesh04 Jul 2012 4:53 a.m. PST

I'd have to point out that lumping all of one's guardsmen from a platoon into one gigantic squad will definitely improve their overwatch capability, but you will lose tactical flexibility. Plus, the unit can only shoot at the first thing to assault them. I've played against Tyranids enough to know that there's ALWAY one random Hormagaunt knocking around, all it's mates dead but still within synapse.

Overwatch makes larger units viable over several smaller ones, but there'll always be the trade-off between durability and flexibility there.

Nonetheless, the 5-man assault squad can't just throw itself inwith impunity any more. I like the principle, but can't say that it really improves the game until I've played some games.

Leigh

chuck05 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian04 Jul 2012 5:25 a.m. PST

No troops have been 'nerfed'.

Chaos Deamons are going to take it on the chin. They dont have much in the way of shooting to wear down the enemy before the charge.

Mithmee Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 6:38 a.m. PST

"but you will lose tactical flexibility"

Not if you just plan to put this platoon of 3-4 combined squads on an objective.

Plus Overwatch allows the return of large squads of Eldar Guardians since they now have an defense against chargers.

Yes the tactic to use if you are the charger is to charge with something else getting this large group of guys to waste their shots at just killing that lone Hormagaunt.

Then hit then with the 7 Genestealers.

But here is the other item that hurts chargers as well. more than likely this platoon will be sitting in terrain that will reduce the high Initiative of the Genestealers down to just a "1".

So those 30 Guardsmen will get to strike first in Close Combat depending on just how many can get within 2" of a Genestealer.

Sane Max04 Jul 2012 8:03 a.m. PST

Could this be the end for another famous 40K Paraody?

Pat

picture

Manflesh04 Jul 2012 10:22 a.m. PST

Mithmee- granted but you could hold 3-4 separate objectives with the same 30-40 guardsmen if they are separate units. I didn't say big units were bad, but nonetheless there is a tradeoff in flexibility which makes it worth considering the various options.

Also, the whole 30 guardsmen in cover thing applied in 5th edition, didn't it? That's how we played it- assaulting that big a squad would be dangerous then as it is now, simply through attrition. At the end of the day it's hard to shift 30 guys.

Yes, I was going to say that Eldar Guardians might get a comeback now. It'll be nice to see ANY of them at all, let alone large units.

Moomin CF- not sure, I think the joke still stands. Vehicles don't get overwatch (thank goodness) so their role remains largely the same.

Leigh

WarpSpeed04 Jul 2012 10:45 a.m. PST

If only 2nd edit vehicle datafaxes made a comeback.

Tim White Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 11:56 a.m. PST

@WarpSpeed

Lol, I have those on my bookshelf in the basement!

I was pleasantly shocked to see that there are now "hull points" in 40k AND that glancing hits no longer roll on the vehicle damage chart. That really takes out the two largest things I used to hate about 40k – which was land raiders getting dropped by a lucky roll from a weapon that could barely hurt it and also impossible to destroy skimmers. Really they just cut out the two extremes, which is nice because now the points values of vehicles will more closely reflect their performance.

-Tim

Admiral Yi Sun Sin is my Homie04 Jul 2012 12:19 p.m. PST

I like hull points because the precious Land Raider know can be wreaked with 4 glancing hits. thumbs up

Transports still work but I like how mech spam now has more to worry about. I'm seriously considering taking down from my shelf my all foot no transport Ultra Marine Space Marines!

As a Tyranid player I encourage large units of Imperial Guard. That's only right and proper. evil grin

basileus66 Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 12:33 p.m. PST

As a Tyranid player I encourage large units of Imperial Guard. That's only right and proper.

LOL

That's what my son says too!

Wolfprophet04 Jul 2012 12:38 p.m. PST

Chaos Deamons are going to take it on the chin. They dont have much in the way of shooting to wear down the enemy before the charge.

Not if they take an allied contingent of Chaos Marines.
Allies definitely means now that if an army had a weakness, there's a chance to make up for it with the strength of another. Imagine taking a stripped down IG HQ and then a full strength troops choice to back up your space marines.

Or a Marine captain with Jump pack and power sword, a tactical squad and an assault squad to bolster a Tau force.

chuck05 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian04 Jul 2012 5:24 p.m. PST

Doesnt taking away the weaknesses of your army ruin the the balance? Each army has certain things built in to either give them charachter or balance them out vs other armies. If you take that out, armies will be basically the same and games will just turn into a dice rolling exercise.

Delthos04 Jul 2012 6:04 p.m. PST

Overwatch really isn't all that much of an issue, it's only at BS 1. That means only 1 in 6 shots are going to hit. This means 30 man units of Orks aren't even going to bat an eye at charging a 10 man squad of IG.

Also if the unit is pinned they can't do overwatch. It's almost like GW added a bit of realism to 40k.

Mithmee Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 9:20 p.m. PST

"granted but you could hold 3-4 separate objectives"

That is the thing about Imperial Guard those 30 – 40 Guardsmen are not alot of points.

In my 2000 point Imperial Guard they would only make up less than 25% of my total Army.

I run 6 troops section three x Veterans Squads and three Platoons the smallest is the Mech Platoon which has four vehicles and 35 Guardsmen.

"Overwatch really isn't all that much of an issue, it's only at BS 1. That means only 1 in 6 shots are going to hit. This means 30 man units of Orks aren't even going to bat an eye at charging a 10 man squad of IG."

True no unit would bat an eye against a 10 man squad.

But four 10 man squads that have been Combined together would give quite a few units plause.

basileus66 Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 11:31 p.m. PST

This means 30 man units of Orks aren't even going to bat an eye at charging a 10 man squad of IG.

Yes, and no. It will depend on how many flamers the IG has in the squad, and how far from the target is the charging unit. The mechanics of the charge and of assigning wounds can leave your unit out of charge distance even if you only suffer a couple of casualties.

For instance, imagine you charge a IG Veterans squad with 4 flamers. They will have 4D3 hits against your Orks. On average you will lose 4 Orks to the defensive fire. Those are not crippling loses for an Ork. However, the casualties must be taken from the nearest figures to the shooting unit. That means that when you roll how far you charge you will be praying that the roll is high enough, otherwise your carefully planned assault won't reach its target and the IG will shred your unit to pieces during its shooting phase next turn.

That's the most important effect of defensive fire: how to avoid lose figures that you will need to reach your enemy during the charge step.

soledad Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 11:32 p.m. PST

From what I understand one unit can only hold one objective. That is a unit of 20 figures cannot stretch out with 2 inch between figures and hold two objectives that are, lets say, 30 inches apart. Even if they do that they will only count as holding one of the two objectives.

Delthos05 Jul 2012 6:54 a.m. PST

That's not going to happen very often basileus66! They will also get overrun by the second unit of Orks that then charge them as a unit only gets one overwatch fire per turn.

Admiral Yi Sun Sin is my Homie05 Jul 2012 7:02 a.m. PST

From what I understand one unit can only hold one objective.
Correct, page 123 in the BADAB. Also to add to soledad's post, the player of that big controlling unit has to declare which objective is being held thereby making it clear which one is not.

BADAB – Big Ass Dark Angels Book. Referencing the DA on the cover of this edition.

basileus66 Supporting Member of TMP05 Jul 2012 7:33 a.m. PST

They will also get overrun by the second unit of Orks that then charge them as a unit only gets one overwatch fire per turn

Yes… if they reach the unit. Still, you are using two units (20-60 Orks) to kill ONE single IG unit (10 Guards). And after the charge your Orks still will be inside the killing zone of the rest of the Guard (see how hard is to use multiple charges now: you lose all the benefits for charging, ie. no +1 Attack, nor Furious Charge either)

Mithmee Supporting Member of TMP05 Jul 2012 12:39 p.m. PST

No he is using those two units to kill off a Combined 3-4 Squads of Imperial Guard.

Because if it was just a 10 man squad not much would be afraid to charge that.

But facing 40 Guardsmen who are holding a piece of terrain and who have 4 Flamers well you just might need to units.

One to take the blunt of the Overwatch fire and the other to actually Crush the 40 Guardsmen.

Though another tactic to limit your opponent is to mix together two 10 man unit of Guardsmen, so that your opponent would have to charge both units.

Thus you get rid the +1 attack due to making your opponent do a disorder charge against your two units.

Personal logo kallman Supporting Member of TMP05 Jul 2012 8:02 p.m. PST

Damnit! I was not, repeat, NOT, going to give in and yield my hard earned custom to GW again. However, 6th is sounding more like a cross of all the good things in RT, 2nd Edition and wow you now can have reaction fire of a sort? Hmm…

Mick A05 Jul 2012 11:32 p.m. PST

A big unit of guard just sounds like the perfect target for all template weapons to me, especially if they are just going to stay in one spot…. :)

Mick

Tim White Supporting Member of TMP06 Jul 2012 7:54 a.m. PST

Sounds like some of you need to duke it out on the table top ;-)

Anyway, its all good. When I last played (3rd), I don't think anyone was every really too worried about IG infantry – they just took the min requirement and loaded up on tanks. The thought that they might actually have some worth in 6th is just amazing unto itself.

-Tim

Mithmee Supporting Member of TMP06 Jul 2012 8:24 a.m. PST

Do not put down a all foot or nearly all foot army of Imperial Guardsmen.

Guard Troopers are dirt cheap and can get a wide variety of firepower.

Cmd Squads with either all Meltaguns or Plasma Guns. I like Grenade Launchers since you can either go with Krak for single target high power killing or against hordes go Frag Grenade so that you hit more targets.

Plus with Grenade Launchers is that they will not kill your guy like Plasma Guns will.

Their only draw back is that the Krak Grenade is only AP 4 so can not kill a Space Marine out right.

My 2000 point army only has four Chimeras in it. But to go with them are 186 troopers who have.

20 x Flamers
19 x Grenade Launchers
7 x Missile Launchers
3 x Hvy Bolters
2 x Hvy Flamers
30 x Melta Bombs
7 x Demo Charges
10 x Sniper Rifles
75 Guardsmen are also armed with Krak Grenades

Lots of firepower and that is just what the troopers are carrying.

The Chimeras have another

4 x Multi Lasers
4 x Hvy Bolters
3 x Hunter Seeker Missiles

Plus this was my 5th Edition list and for 6th Edition I really do not see changing it all that much.

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