"greatcoats" Topic

Were greatcoats worn commonly during battle, or were they removed (given the chance) for battle? Also, since the Perrys don't make any French line officers/standard bearers in greatcoats, would the officers/standard bearers not "be caught dead" in their greatcoats during battle (or is it just a gap in the available model range)?

Finally, would men in greatcoats be scattered in with the regular uniformed men in units, or would the entire unit be in either regular uniform or greatcoats (not mixed).

Kinda dumb questions but I want to know how to mix these figures on bases as accurately as possible.

I'm guessing that they would only be worn if the weather merited it, i.e. rain or winter snow.

IIRC, the 1814 French recruits wore the great coat because there was a lack of uniform coats in the supply system.

It makes sense to me that the soldiers would remove the great coat before the start of the battle, rolling them up and placing them atop their back pack. Officers sometimes wore them like a blanket roll.

I can tell you for Russians :

For other-ranks : Greatcoats worn by the whole force present usually based on the temperature (roughly September through May in northern Europe and western Russia). Otherwise (1811-1815) greatcoats should be rolled over the shoulder for foot troops.

For company-grade officers (captain and below) : In parade-type orders of dress, as per other-ranks (but nicer greatcoats). Otherwise, generally per personal choice, to include the frock or undress coat as a (rather popular) third option. Recall that all officers were allowed at least 1 (civilian) personal servant, who could assist in carrying their effects. The officer's greatcoat had a sort of short built-in cape covering the shoulders

For field-grade officers (major and above) : As per company-grade officers, but as they were mounted (and allowed a cart to carry their effects), not likely to carry the greatcoat rolled.

For general officers : Until 1808 : As per field-grade officers, but with some variation in campaign winter outerwear. From 1808 : there was a standard uniform coat for generals, and in cold weather they seemed to have preferred capes in dark green (often fur-trimmed) or even all-fur (such a bearskin) or at least liked to have their portraits made thusly.

Apparently the French troops liked to wear them in Spain as they were looser fitting than the uniform jacket and thus cooler.

British officers didn't need greatcoats because they had umbrellas…

They wore coats when it was cold. They did not wear coats when it was hot. If the soldier did not have a coat then he did not wear a coat despite the cold.

So did individual soldiers decide, so there would have been a mix of troops wearing greatcoats and others not wearing greatcoats within the same unit? Or did officers decide and give orders? Or does no-one really know?

I think that no one really knows. In the French army there was likely a mix except in regiments where the CO insisted that his men dress well in the face of the enemy. In other armies with a more rigid discipline there would most likely be no mix with greatcoats being worn 'en masse' at the CO's direction. This would certainly be true of the British and the Russians.

I units where discipline was tight, greatcoats would probabaly only be worn, 'on order'.
Units where discipline was lax, I suspect it was "wear'em if you want to".
Very much like the Army of today really.

I think it is unlikely that individual soldiers could decide whether to wear the greatcoat on his own initiative, at least in any moderately disciplined force. The exception might be after a long hard period of campaigning, where uniforms have worn out and some soldiers have no other option.

In 1815 the Prussians required that certain of the regiments newly incorporated into the army wear their greatcoats to cover their old non-Prussian uniforms.

In 1815 the British Infantry were ordered by Wellington to send their greatcoats to the rear and thus didn't have them at Waterloo. I also found a reference that the Hanoverians did the same.

The Prussian 28th were ex-Berg troops wearing white uniforms. They were ordered to wear their greatcoats after the battle of Gilly to disguise their white coats OR to make the officer's blue coats less noticeable.

"Also, since the Perrys don't make any French line officers/standard bearers in greatcoats…"

Perry has greatcoated officers in this pack of line:

link

And there's a specific pack of line regimental command in greatcoats right here:

link

Hope that helps a bit.

I'm with the "they wore them at will" crowd.

I would tend to lean the way of trailapes suggestion. If I were painting an 1805 – 1807 french Army I would limit the number of greatcoat wearing individuals as the units tended to be cited as very disciplined and well trained. As the casualties took their toll in later campaigns, reinforcements watered down the experience, discipline and probably dress and bearing took a downward turn leading to the Marie Louise's look of massed greatcoats. 1815 hard to say as it was a very veteran army but there was foul weather so probably 50/50. I suspect that was behind the Perry's decisions when assembling their plastic line inf.

I should add logistics, (as with everything) would also have an impact. If a soldier's uniform was in disrepair the simple solution would be to cover it up with a greatcoat.

Personally, after seeing the Perry kits, I like the idea of mixing greatcoats, regular coats, trousers colors, etc..for that campaign look. I will mix my Old Glory metals that way.

After weeks on campaign uniformity goes out the window, no matter what button counters say. A modern veteran sneered when a friend asked about his combat uniforms and vehicles. I expect much worse in the logistics poor Nappy times.

Mix 'em up I say. More realistic than you realize.

One has only to look at contemporary prints, greatcoats were worn in battle but not so frequent as everybody is thinking.
the usual battle dress was uniform coat and overalls, Bavarians at Poltosk for example, Westphalians at Borodino.
Usually units in the Napoleonic wars tried to be uniform, that is either all in coats or greatcoats, if possible no mix.
When there was a mix, then one tried to concentrate them into the ranks, like those with greatcoats inthe third rank.
When logistics brake down – like in the retreat from Russia 1812 – everything goes.
Instead of wild specualtions just look at the works of
Faber du Fauer
Albrecht Adam
about the Russian campaign, then look what units did wear on the day of battle.

After weeks on campaign uniformity goes out the window, no matter what button counters say. A modern veteran sneered when a friend asked about his combat uniforms and vehicles. I expect much worse in the logistics poor Nappy times.

Couldn't agree more.
Consider also that 'our' units of say 24 fig represent 400-600 men, then an accurate representation of a hard campaigning unit of the period probably should have a mix.
Cheers

In 1815 the British Infantry were ordered by Wellington to send their greatcoats to the rear and thus didn't have them at Waterloo. I also found a reference that the Hanoverians did the same.

This was standard practice. It went on all through the Peninsular War as well. At the start of each campaign Great Coats were bundled up and put into store, with a small number retained for Guard or Outpost duties in bad weather.

Basically if the weather turned rough you wrapped yourself up in a blanket and froze!

You really shouldn't see British figures on the wargames table in Great Coats.

Having read a lot of first-hand accounts from letters, diaries etc of the men who were there, I would say that in the British army the men wore what they were told to wear and correct uniform was maintained most of the time.

Worn out kit was replaced on a regular basis and men were punished for having damaged or missing stuff.

The exception is of course during those episodes such as the retreats from Burgos and to Corunna when discipline and supply broke down.

One of Siborne's correspondents says that the majority of the French were wearing them at Waterloo.

Greatcoats were one of those things you weren't likely to lose, so the stage of the campaign wouldn't affect it in the same way as some articles. Either your unit had them with them or they had been sent off out of the way. If they were with the unit, the CO would likely decide whether you were wearing them or not.
Exceptions, such as the 3rd and 4th Regts of the Imperial Guard at Waterloo, where some wore great coats and some not, were exceptional enough to be noted and even then the mix of equipment may well have been exaggerated.

In the earlire part of the Napoleonic Wars, greatcoats were not general issue in most armies. Units would instead have a small number of 'Watch-coats' that were passed between men going off and coming on guard duty.

There is one of the rare memoirs of an Austrian soldier (Schnierer), who relates that IR 4 Deutschmeister fought in their greatcoats (probably without coats underneath) at Wagram in July (!) – and it was not cold …

General Order #1 11th May 1813 – Wellington's HQ

"When the several divisions of the army shall receive orders to march, they will send the great coats of the soldiers into store, according to the orders already given to the Assistant Quarter Masters General of divisions."

The orders referred to being General Orders #12 – #17 of 25th April 1813.

Just to point out every soldier had one to start with vis General Order #14:

"The great coat of each soldier must be well cleaned and his name and number and the letter of his company marked upon it"

I can see the Brits being more uniform they were the only army that had any consistent logistical system. Wellington was ahead of his time on that one.

Besides, I don't know if I have seen British minis with overcoats, at least not in 28 mm.

I'm still for mixing them up where you can.

I think many posters are rather missing the point here: what you wore in battle was generally NOT a matter of personal choice (as in "I think I'll wear the blue jacket today"), but whatever the unit was ordered to wear. In some cases, wearing a greatcoat could have been done to distinguish friend from foe; equally, the greatcoats of some units may have been of a distinctive colour. Either way, subject to the item being issued and still being in good condition, the men in the ranks would almost certainly have worn them, or not, by order of the battalion/regiment COs and NCOs. Alternatively, if the CO said: "Parade dress!" then you put that on.

Are (if you get the color your looking for) a snap to paint. My guess is weather permiting

I don't think anyone missed a point. It isn't an issue of what I want to wear or what I was told to wear, it is what I had available to wear. In the Waterloo campaign many French units had hodge pledge uniforms. There was no time and system to put it right. In 1812, as the campaign wore on, uniforms weren't so uniform. Similar arguments can be made in 1813 early 1807 etc. A lot of posts talk about the British system which was an exception to the rule. Continental Europe did not fair so well.

I don't think anyone missed a point. It isn't an issue of what I want to wear or what I was told to wear, it is what I had available to wear.

Agreed.
Once the logistic system started to strain / fail, it would have often been a case of 'wear what you have'. There would obviously been an attempt to maintain uniformity, but if discipline or Esprit de Corps in the unit was lax, (often caused by the rigors and strain of campainging) then there would have been an even greater variety of dress within the unit.