"Bill's Politics: Bad for TMP Business?" Topic

Speaking to the OP: And your point is…?

On Mormons as Christians: depends on definitions. My (probably inadequate) understanding of the Mormons is that they are not Trinitarians, which would (from an orthodox viewpoint) put them in the same category as many thinkers and groups in the early centuries who disputed that doctrine as it came to be delineated by Augustine. The Muslim analogy may not be far wrong, as they see Jesus as a prophet. It is at least clear that Mormons are Abrahamic ethical monotheists -- and very fine people.

This discussion is just bound to change a LOT of minds. I can feel it in my bones!

it changed my mind. I wasn't gonna have a beer today but I am now enjoying one and this thread.

Mongo

I come by my definition of "Christian" from a secret rebelious love of heresies. I could not get enough of them back when I first started attending Catholic school in the 7th Grade.
In the early Church, we had a wide variety, from those who felt that Jesus was wholly divine, to those like the Arians (NOT "Aryans"! )who emphasized the human nature. In fact, Arian Christians and Muslims had a common ground there, and I have read how the Prophet was influenced by Arian theologians. Maybe, maybe not.
There were those who rejected the Trinity, etc.
Yet, ALL were considered "Christians".

The Catholic Church, much like modern "scientists" sought to acheive a consensus through various Councils. Said Councils were very heavily politicized, and Constantine in particular… well, go read about it.

So, in my not so humble opinion, if Nestorians, Monophysites and so on get classified as "Christian", accepting Mormons is a piece of cake.
Heck, even the Gnostics were considered a Christian "heresy".

So, Stu, I am glad to see you speaking for Methodists and Catholics. How did you get that gig? Do you speak for Anabaptists, Nestorians, Monophysites and Christian Scientists too?

a right leaning Libertarian Calvinist Baptist.
really don't get the anti-left vibe your talking about.

Well, see, herein kinda lies the issue.
The majority of TMP'ers (and miniature hobbyists in general, it must be said)
are center/right to right, as is our dear Bill.
Therefore, the pool seems clear & clean to the majority swimming in it.

Only those few center/left to left (and extreme right, to be sure!)
will notice the occasional 'baby ruth' bar floating by.
No point in pointing it out, because its unnoticeable by the majority,
and unobjectionable to Bill.

You really do need to look at the bigger picture, however:
the Blue Fezz does offer a defacto rebuke to those few posts crossing the line (ie "Take it to the Fezz!), and this site is Hands Down less objectionable than either Unmmoderated sites, or those few extremely heavy-handed sites.

This thread as an example:
Every off-topic post is potentially dawg-houseable, by Letter of the the Law,
but I doubt anyone will be; no one is yet acting like a complete ass
'Course, the whole thread might eventually get Nuked…

You really need to Work at it to get banned, and you are Warned repeatedly
(whereas on other sites bannings are either capricious & arbitrary,
or totally lacking).
To Put it another way:

Bill has Blind Spots, but they happen to align w/the majority of TMP'ers.

<shrug>

Alex – as it happens my level of formal education involves two degrees in environmental science which, admittedly, doesn't make me a climatologist either but does give me more of an insight than an economist.

Doc – Rachael Carson is not responsible for the deaths of millions of people from malaria.

There were even then plenty of ways of dealing with malaria without poisoning the environment.

I guess some people still haven't got the message that without a healthy environment, people die…..

The terminology gets confusing, I suppose. Mormons believe in the Trinity – Father, Son, and Holy Ghost – but not in Trinitarianism, which is the doctrine that God exists as three persons (Greek hypostases) but is one being. Mormons believe the members of the Trinity are individuals, who are one in purpose.

Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet, but not divine.

I love pie, apple, cherry, peach it really doesn't matter. What is your favorite?

There is a big ball of gas 93 million miles from the Earth, having thermonuculear reactions taking place. It releases a LOT of energy, but not consistently. Hmmmmmm. I wonder if that has anything to do with it being hot in June in the Northern hemisphere? It's going to be 95F on wednesday, the radio said this morning. Imagine that! 95F in June!

Murphy has just exhibited such breath-taking scientifc ignorance that further discussion is impossible.

It's like trying to explain a nuclear reactor to Papuan tribesmen…

So, to get the thread back on track – is Bills' perceived bias affecting your enjoyment of the web-site?

As for whether it's bad for business, the answer is obviously yes since it costs him supporting memberships.

The majority of TMP'ers (and miniature hobbyists in general, it must be said) are center/right to right…

I think we had a poll (a long, long time ago) which showed relative balance between right and left among TMP members. Can't find it now that I want to check it out, though…

Murphy has just exhibited such breath-taking scientifc ignorance that further discussion is impossible.

Well, that's one way out of it.
The "Yo mama so fat!" argument.

is Bills' perceived bias affecting your enjoyment of the web-site?

As for whether it's bad for business, the answer is obviously yes since it costs him supporting memberships.

Not obviously, since in theory, it could just as easily be gaining Supporting Members…

Also, I don't think there's a consensus on which direction my bias is, as I get feedback from people telling me that I'm too liberal as well as too conservative!

Volstagg

assuredly I have my biases and for the most part I tend to not have a real problem with most of Bill's posts.
I also don't get overly fired up at left leaning posts.
I have seen left wing bomb throwers here in the past,they do exist on TMP. I generally don't get rankled by them either.

Mongo

My opinion is whoever is doing the research is going to find what the funder is wanting the research to say. And don't bet there isn't big money in the outcome.

And now I'm going to go back to painting my Bremen Battalion

My opinion is whoever is doing the research is going to find what the funder is wanting the research to say. And don't bet there isn't big money in the outcome.

As I have said before "The purpose of Science is to prove your grant proposal."
Alternately, to get tenure.

And this is nothing new, either.

Well, that's one way out of it.
The "Yo mama so fat!" argument.

That's kinda been bangorstu's approach since his first post on this thread.

Alex – as it happens my level of formal education involves two degrees in environmental science which, admittedly, doesn't make me a climatologist either but does give me more of an insight than an economist.

Then I concede. I shall now burn my own degrees, sell my businesses, donate all proceeds to Greenpeace and apply for a job cleaning chewing gum off park benches.

One of the things that I like about TMP is that it can be a refuge from the nasty, take-no-prisoners, red state-blue state discourse that has been going on in the US for over a decade. I've seen good friendships ruined by the interjection of politics into wargaming. I used to be friends with Wartopia.

I really do not want to know the political leanings or opinions of the people that I wargame/socialize with as I find, often to my great regret, that it skews how I view that person, going forward. The same holds true for the TMP community. While I may game with only a small fraction of TMPers, I feel that I have come to know a lot of you and consider you as my friends. I don't want politics to change any of that.

I really do not want to know the political leanings or opinions of the people that I wargame/socialize with as I find, often to my great regret, that it skews how I view that person, going forward. The same holds true for the TMP community.

Well said. Which is why I don't have TMP Talk or TMP Poll Suggestions selected for my homepage. It's not a foolproof approach though since I seem to have gotten involved in this thread against my better judgement.

As I have said before "The purpose of Science is to prove your grant proposal."

John, if you don't know anything about science, can't you just say?

Then I concede. I shall now burn my own degrees,

Given the situation of the world proves economsits aren't even masters of their own discipline, mightn't be a bad idea.

But I'm intrigued – why does being an economist give you a better insight into climate science than, say, a climate scientist?

Or indeed, any kind of scientist?

OK Murph – the reason why Americans get blamed for the environmental problems of the world is because they are causing more of them than anyone else.

The average American uses twice as many of the world's finite resources annually as the average Briton.

Hence the world can sustainable support half as many Americans as Brits.

Added to this, you've got an antiquated energy sector based around fossil fuel and no indication you give a rat's arse to change that anytime soon, preferring to rape the Kentucky environment instead.

As for the difference between natural and man-made climate change, you simply need to look at the rate things are happening.

Still, given you come from a nation where even Evolution is still regarded as a dangerous concept, perhaps I've been a little hard on you.

Now, footie whilst painting Ascaris…

John, if you don't know anything about science, can't you just say?

And, what makes you say that I "don't know anything about science"?
Once again, your leaps of rhetoric are breathtaking.
I have a BS in Chemistry, and went to grad school in Chemistry. I lived it, I saw it in action.

Screw this. I am sick of your ad hominem attacks when you don't get fawning agreement.

I can see this as a wargaming issue, if preparing for desert, and/or arctic warfare, and knowing which kit to issue to the troops.

That being said, Environmental Change is now just the latest flavor of the year.

Back in the 1960's/1970's the environmental scientists were screaming about the coming Ice Age.

Then, it became the great Global Warming fear.

Now, it is Climate Change, since the GW stats have been shown to be manipulated heavily, and selectively culled.

"It repeats the bizzare claim that climate scientists are getting rich off of climate research".

Actually, that is spot on. Many scientists are getting huge grants from the government, and private institutions to do research, and some have decided on the conclusion, before the research is done, and are using and manipulating the data to prove their point. Al Gore has made tons of money on the claims as well, and yet he still has multiple mansions, flies around in big jets, drives large vehicles, and runs the A/C or heating all the time in his residences – doesn't seem he is willing to put the Earth first by trying to reduce his global carbon footprint, to save it.

I've got news for you, temperatures do change over time, as a natural course of the Earth's weather. I suspect the vast majority of this is due to small changes in the output of energy from our sun.

Back in the 1930's, people used to be able to drive cars and trucks across the Albemarle Sound in North Carolina, on the ice, before the bridge was built. For quite some time since then, that hasn't occurred, because the area has quite temperate Winters, relative to other areas.

You can look back through history, before man started using any fossil fuels, and see considerable swings in the Earth's temperatures as well, so I submit this is a natural phenomena that people are trying to say is man-made.

Of course man has some impact on the Earth's environment, but it is miniscule compared to the effect the sun has on our planet.

Even if we reduced using our fossil fuels by 50%, the temperature change from that would only be about 1/10th of 1 degree fahrenheit, so I submit that the cost to societies around the globe isn't worth it. However, if you insist, please stop using your car/truck, don't use any public transportation or electricity that is generated from coal fired plants, and turn off your A/C and heater, for the good of the planet.

The latest huge scam is the carbon tax on jet aircraft in Europe. Basically, it's just another way for people to generate income through taxation, in order to increase their control over others, and to redistribute wealth to further their agendas.

Mako – research scientists do not drive BMWs….

Big Oil executives do.

No-one goes into science to make money, the inference from John that any scientist worth his salt will skew his data shows how little he gleaned from his chemistry days.

As for the fact that a half century ago the science was different – well yes. Because that was 50 years ago.

Sigh.

OK.

Cigarettes don't cause cancer.

The Earth is flat.

AGCC isn't happening.

Don't forget that the sun revolves around the Earth and that evolution and gravity are merely theories.

Given the situation of the world proves economsits aren't even masters of their own discipline, mightn't be a bad idea.

Uneducated, worthy only of minimum wage AND responsible for the credit crisis? I ought to be locked up.

But I'm intrigued – why does being an economist give you a better insight into climate science than, say, a climate scientist?

I haven't claimed it does. I was responding to your claim that people who didn't believe in global warming were uneducated and should only be permitted to have low paying jobs which I thought was rude and foolish.

You're not really helping yourself here, you could just apologise and stop throwing silly insults around.

OK Murph – the reason why Americans get blamed for the environmental problems of the world is because they are causing more of them than anyone else.

Would you like to list which of the worlds problems we are causing?
Let's see?…Mudslides? Nope…Tsunamis?…Nope…Chernobyl?…Sorry Charlie…

The average American uses twice as many of the world's finite resources annually as the average Briton.

Yes…our M1 tanks and fighter aircraft and worldwide logistics and emergency supply capabilities for humanitarian missions, seem to be in kinda high demand recently…Last time I check a US aircraft carrier can provide, meals, fresh water, electric power, and medical treatment to a decent sized city…we have a dozen of these…how many do you have?…When was the last time you deployed one to a third world disaster area?

Oh yeah..I forgot..y'all share one with France now…

Hence the world can sustainable support half as many Americans as Brits.

Of course…would you like to include all of those non-brit subjects in your Empire and Commonwealths?
Btw…have you finished buying carbon credits to pay off the carbon footprint for your centuries of colonialism in Africa and Asia?…Lemme know when you got that one done, and then we can get to work on WWI…

Added to this, you've got an antiquated energy sector based around fossil fuel and no indication you give a rat's arse to change that anytime soon, preferring to rape the Kentucky environment instead.

The WORLD is based on fossil fuel Stu…or are you too blind to notice?…Last time I checked oil was still being used in Old Blighty…
When your island nation becomes 100% fossil fuel free, then come back and see me about this one, okay?

As for the difference between natural and man-made climate change, you simply need to look at the rate things are happening.

Based on what?
Billions of years of planetary development vs less than 300 years of records and even less scientific work and calculations?

Still, given you come from a nation where even Evolution is still regarded as a dangerous concept, perhaps I've been a little hard on you.

Many of us dont' consider it a dangerous concept…however some do; probably about as many as those of you that consider the idea of a free Northern Ireland to be a dangerous concept…

I've given you the reasons…NASA data among others…
All you can do is insults…

Doc – Rachael Carson is not responsible for the deaths of millions of people from malaria.

I believe I said "unintended consequence." But her book DID lead to banning of DDT. And deaths from malaria DID increase, by millions, as a consequence. The question of to what extent authors are responsible for the uses to which their books are put is a complex and tricky one.

JJ Rousseau may not be QUITE responsible for the Reign of Terror, nor JP Sartre for the Cambodian holocaust -- but the political leaders who were directly responsible for those things were certainly influenced by those writers' concepts and visions.

Thank Providence this thread introduced me to Bangorstu. He has brought light to the darkness, delivered the captive, and brought sight to the blind. Praise be His Name! Selah.

"Mako – research scientists do not drive BMWs….".

I suspect you are wrong about that, but am glad you are in touch with, and know the vehicle ownership status of all the world's research scientists, and those of their family members, whom they may or may not have purchased vehicles for.

Ah, Patrick, +1 for staying on target with the talking points…..

Oh, and "community activists" = "socialists, and communists".

I believe I said "unintended consequence." But her book DID lead to banning of DDT. And deaths from malaria DID increase, by millions, as a consequence. The question of to what extent authors are responsible for the uses to which their books are put is a complex and tricky one.

Her book caused a ban in the USA, many countries around the world continued to spray DDT for years, but as patents lapsed, new products came on the market and increasingly resistant insects made DDT less interesting financially, but some people felt it was very convenient to blame it on Carson.

Your claim is that the DDT ban is the only cause of malaria death. In some countries programs that didn't involve insecticides proved to be very effective, so much so that insecticide sales plummeted.

DDT is just one tool of many, it's not a magical wand that will make malaria go away. The product was used for decades and while it reduced malaria and insect populations it never was a permanent solution.

So, I was just trying out a new set of great 28mm sci-fi skirmish rules, and – …oops. Wrong thread. Rants and counter rants about global warming are just so much more fun to read than anything to do with gaming.

But I'm intrigued – why does being an economist give you a better insight into climate science than, say, a climate scientist?

Or indeed, any kind of scientist?

C'mon Alex we do know what happens when environmentalists take on silly old economists. link

Which Makes More Sense

Presenting false dichotomies is another example of contempt. Do you really believe people are too dim to see these are not the only or even the likely possibilities, that things are much more complex? It only makes you look bad.

Cigarettes don't cause cancer.

This is another example of over-simplification. In the strict sense of the words cigarettes do not cause cancer, you must know this. Cigarettes cause cancer no more than peanut butter causes anaphylactic shock. This is using words and flinging around concepts imprecisely and then refusing to give others who do the same the benefit of an understanding and sympathetic hearing.

You must know people who reject evolution are not rejecting the science, they are rejecting material determinism. They attack the science the way a sophist refuses to allow his opponent any ground in an argument, this does not mean their rejection of material determinism is wrong only that they are poorly equipped to argue and lack confidence.

Very few people believe the earth is flat, comparing them to people like those above is unfair.

Generally speaking, did French legre in the Napoleonic wars actually skirmish as a whole battalion or pretty much function just as a line unit would?
Regards
Russ Dunaway

I was tempted to reply to this thread, but all it did is reaffirm how much I DON'T want to talk to the "other side" of the political divide.

Damon.

C'mon Alex we do know what happens when environmentalists take on silly old economists. link

not to add fuel to this fire but I just found out House Hunters is faked
link

Murphy – the USA gives a very small percentage of its budget to foreign aid by First World standards.

So frankly the USA, despite its humanitarian MBTs, isn't pulling its weight..

And, just to keep you current, the UK doesn't have an Empire any more and the Commonwealth are all independent nations.

So no. The average American uses twice the resources of the average Brit. Living in Britain. enjoying much the same standard of living.

Unlike the USA, the UK and most European nations are moving away from using fossil fuels. It's the USA that seems intent on living in the 19th rather than 21st century.

Sad, but when you're begging the Chinese or Germans for technological help you'll know why.

As for Northern Ireland – it is free. It has the government its people want, as proven by numerous elections and indeed referenda either side of the border.

Very few people believe the earth is flat, comparing them to people like those above is unfair.

Most of the people who believe the earth is flat, reject evolution or believe that global warming is a big conspiracy by the International Brotherhood of evil baby-eating Communist simply reject all evidence, or being completely ignorant of any actual facts, arrogantly assert their opinion as utterly incontrovertible truth that huge numbers of people are wrong/incompetent or engaged in massive fraud or conspiracy simply because the claim doesn't match their religious and/or political views.

Most of these people know little more than what they gleaned from opinion pieces from like-minded peers, usually second or third party information, thoroughly filtered through socio-political views, with a bit of rumor here, a bit of spin there and they get that nice feeling of being particular to unique knowledge, shared by an elite that is more aware of the reality of the world.

It will surprise no-one that those well-known hippies of the Chinese Communist Party also believe in AGCC…

link

Obviously those Evil Chinese Climate Scientists want BMWs as well.

These things always turn out so well, don't they?

I'd suggest that while Bill's fairness as a referee is constantly open to question, if I was a TMP advertiser, I'd be more concerned that every time I put up an announcement that I had a new product, I'd get a variety of the following:

"Those are Crap!" (details of crapness may be provided, or not. I prefer not.)

"Why does anyone make another range of French Napoleonics/Wehrmach/Roman legionaries?"

"You should buy my own range X, instead!"

"Has the designer never seen a naked woman?" (I always enjoy this one, especially if the subject is French Napoleonics)

Yes, if I paid to advertise a product, I would love that aspect of TMP ---

Iknow that the picts tattoed themselves --but have always been slighly confused about the celts? Was it just the britons or did the gauls also practice this -- and if so was it the earlier Gauls with Brennus or woukld it still be practiced be Vercingtorix and his boys up to the gallic wars ?
regards
Russ Dunaway

I had a BMW as a student. It cost me £500.00 GBP. I'm sure the academic staff of the world's universities can afford BMWs if they want them.

TBH VW and Volvo make better cars, IMO.

Good points, but surely the number of 'views' is more important than the small number of ignorant comments.

Alex – there's a gentleman who works at Bangor University who is one of the senior advisors to the government on GM crops.

He drives a second hand Saab.

Anyone who says scientists are motivated by money is simply proving their ignorance – virtually all research scientists could earn vastly more in industry.

But then we're not all motivated by money…..

I know that the Picts tattooed themselves --but have always been slightly confused about the Celts? Was it just the Britons or did the Gauls also practice this -- and if so was it the earlier Gauls with Brennus or would it still be practiced be Vercingtorix and his boys up to the Gallic wars?

This is a well known lie perpetrated by Hollywood and the main stream media. No people have ever tattooed themselves.