"Close Combat question." Topic

Ok, my sons are battling now and had a question.

The situation is below.
O
XOO

My sons Heavy Cavalry is X and is on the flank vs the enemy general. Beside the O General is a Heavy Infantry unit and a Light Infantry supporting it.

How is combat resolved?

X-Hvy Cav only vs O General?

Hvy Cav vs the entire battline?

If it's the latter choice may I vehemently protest? This makes flank attacks pretty ineffectual when done with only one or two units and makes battlegroups supreme.

I ruled that the General only fights.

Personally, my own take is that the O-General would turn to face and still have the flank attack -1 and if forced to fall back would be destroyed.

I appreciate the help.

John

Ooops, formatting error. The 2nd row O should be behind another O not touching the X.

Thanks,

John

I believe the whole battle group fights and not just the general.

Oh, I sure hope that's not right David. It would seem that this would make battlegroups supreme on the battlefield then. A -1 for a flank attack means pretty little when it's one unit vs 2-4 or more. If this is correct then flank attacks should be far deadlier as a modifier.

Thanks,

John

I think the design of the game is that battle groups are supreme on the field. I am not sure that one unit attacking 3 on the flank should be all that devastating. The key is to hit from the front at the same time or have a larger group on the flank.

John,

I play MA Ancients, and we play it that the flank attack is only against the flanked stand (or two stands if the flanked unit is two deep). Otherwise it seems as you point out – large battlegroups are a lot more powerful.

Just in case you don't see it, I am about to craft a response on your older thread on MA and what stands in combat fight.

Hey Shaun. I agree completely. Since we are discussing units as stands and not several stands belonging to a single unit flank attacks SHOULD have some real negative consequences for the defender. Currently, as described above that doesn't appear to be the case.

I just picked up the Dark Elf and Ancients books and have been tearing through them for our games. Most of the rules are pretty cool. I do really like the concept of group combat. However, I believe it has to be moderated in some situations like flank or rear attacks. I also am not comfortable with bowfire. I think perhaps two hits should be required on Characters, Heavy troops and Monsters. The 1st hit is a demoralization which causes a -1 to the F/S score.

Thanks,

John

Bowfire is fairly deadly. We are playing MAA which is based on MA 1st edition – the 2nd edition of MA does have quite different stand values.

We did find bow quite powerful – especially as I was Persians with almost every unit with a bow, Vs Greeks which had 2 light horse and that was it!. But Andy my opponent persevered in some later games and won. II think being able to add spare PIPs to the die roll as command or magic to increase bowfire does make it very deadly. Without that, it is not so bad. But that is limited experience with about 10 games all up.

I will be continuing to play flank attacks the way we do – only the stands of the flanked group in contact (usually 1) get to fight. If you can get on the flank of a large unit, you are on a winner, just like IMO, you were in real ancient battles. And I stress the IMO!

I like that too. Flank attacks become a little confiding in group combat.
Maybe a comment from Mike? :)

*confusing

Battle groups are the most powerful things on the field. Depending on what they are speced with, they can be a huge game changer.

John, The whole group fights. I am not sure about your diagram, is this it?

*O
XOO

In this case your son would have the FS(3) score of the Heavy Cav +1 for a charge(I assume) for a total FS of 4(no modifiers).

You would have the FS Score of General(6) and Light Cav (2)(* they are now on the front row of attack.) So that is 8. Support of the Heav Infantry is 2.
So your FS would be a total of 10 -1(Flank)= 9.

Not a very good move on your sons part if I laid them out right unless he had sme other modifiers. Also(the general on the front line gets a re-roll on his dice if he wants).

Now,a rear attck or surprice attack is different. One unit back there that wins or is even in the way, can wipe out an army that loses or is driven back.

Does that help?

Hi Mike. Yeah, that's pretty much how I calculated it under the rules. My problem is that this seems to make battegroups artificially impervious. If we use Ancient or Medieval battles as a source flanking has always had a calamitous effect on the units being flanked. This has been true for pretty much every set of Ancient, Fantasy or Medieval rules I have ever played. This makes MA sort of counter-intuitive. Frankly, I don't see many units ever getting in your opponents rear while flanking can happen somewhat more often.

Also, it makes more sense to me for the defending units being contacted to turn to fight their attacker. This would resolve the battlegroup issue and make a losing defender destroyed if forced to fall back. Flanking SHOULD have a tremendous impact on an enemy line. That's why armies always worry about their flanks. As it stands with MA you can ignore them. I really humbly suggest that this be reexamined.

Thanks,

John