"The British Army and Lewis Guns" Topic

Hi all,

I'm still plugging away on my War Plan Red game and I have some questions about the old stand-by, the Lewis gun.

During WW1 I believe each rifle platoon had at least one Lewis gun and I know that the British used the up to, and through, WW2. So how was it issued? Was it used in lue of the Bren gun in units that hadn't been issued Brens? Was it used by colonial and imperial units? Was it used in heavy weapon teams? Did the BEF use it in large numbers or did they have sufficient numbers of Brens? Finally when did the Bren start replacing the Lewis gun as standard 1st line issue?

Thanks!

The Lewis Gun was very much 2nd-line issue in WW2, being issued from reserve stocks in lieu of Brens when Brens weren't available – particularly after Dunkirk. The BEF went to France reasonably well-equipped; the problems started after the BEF left all that kit behind in France.

Many Lewis Guns were also issued as AA MGs to rear-echelon units, the RAF, RN vessels, etc.

Re Imperial units – the Indian Army generally used the Vickers-Berthier as its LMG in the early days of WW2.

My father's LCM mkI had one as AA protection in Operation Husky and in the crossing of the Messina Straits.

Just to add to the confusion, you also have to add the Hotchkiss for the interwar and early war period, at least for colonial units in the Middle Eastern theatre.

From memory the Lewis gun was introduced in increasing numbers during the Great War, and by 1918 there were two per Rifle Pl, plus an AA element at Bn HQ. As Pls were based on four Secs, that only allowed one for each 'other' Rifle Sec. I've not looked into the interwar years much, but the adoption of the Bren in 1938 allowed for an allocation of one LMG per Rifle Sec, along with the usual AA usage and armament of the Bren carriers.

There were shortages of lots of things in the BEF era, no doubt including Bren guns, I can't recall anything specific about Lewis guns being issued in lieu. It would cause problems in terms of webbing for example, bit hard to wedge a Lewis drum in a Bren mag pouch…

There was over a year to re-equip and issue the new kit before the BEF went overseas, though priority would obviously go to regular fmns who were earmarked for first deployment. I'm sure someone can google up a photo a Lewis with the 1940 BEF, but I suspect they were more often found with 2nd Line Divs, and then in AA type roles.

Gary

Gary has it right, the Interwar platoon had two rifle sections and two Lewis sections.

The "1936 Battalion" (the basis of the organisation used throughout WW2) had a platoon of three sections each with a Bren gun. Units moved from four to three sections to a platoon as Bren guns were issued. Infantry Training 1937 refers to both structures, but in Infantry Section Leading 1938 only the three section platoon is shown. Small Arms Training, Vol 1 Pamphlet 4, Light Machine Gun 1937 (the basic manual on the Bren) was notified in Army Orders May 1937. Instructions for Armourers 1931, Supplement No. 2 – Guns, Machine, Bren .303-inch, Mark I, Mountings, Tripod, Bren .303 MG, Mk I, and Accessories was notified in ACIs 10 August 1938, Thomas Dugelby's "The Bren Gun Saga" (Collector Grade Publicationns, Canada, 1999) says that some Bren guns were made in Brno in in 1936, the first Bren was produced at Enfield in September 1937 and that the Bren was adopted in April 1938 (my local TA battalion had Brens (and a few carriers) in 1938).

The Lewis was issued to the Home Guard (who also had the BAR).

The South Africans were producing 1908 pattern Lewis gun pouches in 1941.

Good stuff! Another related question: how big was the infantry section during the pre-war era?

The South Africans used the Lewis a lot in the 1940-41 period, both as squad LMG (apparently the majority had the Lewis when units were formed for service in East Africa) and as light AA (supplemented by captured Breda 20mm AA as they became available).

Platoon Training 1919 – the section consists of a leader and six men. It will not go into action more than seven strong or with less than three men. The platoon consists of a platoon HQ (one officer, one sergeant, one runner and a batman trained as a runner), two rifle sections and two Lewis gun sections. If a platoon falls below an effective strength of two sections (each of three other ranks) it may be attached temporarily to another platoon in the same company.

And in a Lewis Gun section, how were the men organized? How many guns, gunners, and accompanying riflemen? What were the designated ranks?

A Lewis gun section had one gun with one gunner, an NCO to command it and a bunch of blokes to carry all the magazines.

(IIRC in WW1 it was five ammo carriers for a section strength of seven).

Essentially the 1919 platoon has two rifle groups and two gun groups, unlike its 1938 version with three gun groups and three rifle groups. The Bren needed less men to serve it (or rather, carry the ammo) than the Lewis, so more firepower and manouvre elements with the same manpower count.

Thanks Martin! That's the stuff I'm looking for. I'm gathering a 15mm platoon for skirmishing and this is the sort of info that I need. So this organization would have gone away when the Bren came out. Great stuff.

Not really answering the post, but you may find this interesting?..

My grandfather was serving in Flanders as a loader for a Lewis gun. They were issued pistols as back up weapons. One day (in 1917) a German assault penetrated the line to the left of my grandad's position, and began to filter up the trench.

The first thing my grandad knew of this was when German soldiers appeared on the gun's flank!
As per their standing orders, the Lewis team unclipped their pistol belts and raised their hands, but one of the Germans raised his rifle to shoot my grandad!
Fortunately, his Feldwebel knocked the rifle off aim and my grandad survived, was taken prisoner, and survived the war.

Phew!

Off topic, but relevant to last post. My great uncle was in the machine gun corps, got his military cross with all the documentation.

Additionally weve got his war loot from WW1 so we own the church bell from Ypres. Engraving says "Found in the ruins of Ypres cathedral (St Martins church) found by Lt A.E Stocker 41st Bttn Machine Gun Corps 1918"

I recall seeing quite a few photo's of lewis guns in AA duty. If there had been an actual invasion of England, I imagine they'd have scrounged up everything they had at hand.

You all must have seen the pics of the LRDG trucks with Lewis guns mounted!

I think most of the weapons with drum magazines are Vickers GO weapons rather than Lewis guns, but I'm not saying there were no of the latter!

The Bren needed less men to serve it (or rather, carry the ammo) than the Lewis

Even with the adoption of the Bren, the riflemen in the section were expected to contribute with carrying ammo for the Bren – the official allocation being two loaded magazines and fifty loose rounds per rifleman. Once the shooting started, these were supposed to be passed to the Bren team.

Correct. My Dad (Hampshire Regiment) said that your own ammunition was in the canvas bandoliers while your ammo pouches were for extra Bren gun magazines

During the late-1920s through 1950, Tibet obtained Lewis Guns from India, and provided 1-2 per "regiment" of 500 men.

Might be worth mentioning that quite a few of the Lewises issued in WW2 were stripped down and intended to be used as a hand-held weapon rather than bipod, for wishful AA use. Recipients for the stripped down included the Home Guard and Royal Navy Coastal Forces – I remember reading years ago the memoirs of a Coastal Forces officer (not Peter Scott) who despaired slightly of his Flotilla Deputy Leader's navigation officer, a young midshipman, who always neglected his nav duties in combat in favour of blatting away at E-Boats with one of the Lewises, sub-machine gun style; the comment was that whilst displaying a truly admirable fighting spirit, he would have preferred it if the young man had occasionally paid a bit more attention to his charts when the flotilla was conducting high-speed combat manouevres off the Dutch coast in the middle of the night.

Also, a lot of the reissued Lewises were US .30 weapons, rather than .303", acquired under Lend-Lease. They had painted stripes on the weapons and magazines to distinguish them from British standard weapons. I presume that wherever possible the .30 weapons were kept away from units likely to need frequent ammunition replenishment.

……………………"Also, a lot of the reissued Lewises were US .30 weapons, rather than .303", acquired under Lend-Lease. They had painted stripes on the weapons and magazines to distinguish them from British standard weapons. I presume that wherever possible the .30 weapons were kept away from units likely to need frequent ammunition replenishment"

No wonder why England hasn't won the world cup for a while!!