"Help me vent about unpainted miniatures...." Topic

McLuvin it, your evil Muriel (aka Clay)

Time for me to go fishing too. I will use hooks, bait, a boat (coz I got one), some line and the usual assortment of other paraphernalia, not because it has been asserted by law that I must it's because I take my hobby seriously and it helps if I want to catch a fish.

regards
dave

I'm just getting back into the hobby, some of my armies are fully painted, some are not. We are also trying new games, again some are painted, some not. The younger people I play with use the same assortment. It's just a freaking GAME, we PLAY! One of the definitions of play is to fiddle around with something….which is what we do….we have FUN. If you want to only play with painted figures, so be it but you're missing playing with a rather nice bunch of players.

P.S. You could also run a poll on paint or not to paint and stifle or propose a ban on all those that don't care….

I'm struck by the notion that to have some minmum standards is to be Elitist.

Sure, the standards could be prohibitively high – but insisting on a minimum basic block colours and a bit of EFFORT is not a prohibition, and it is not elitist.

guys will be arguing that learning the rules is elitist next..

If you don't want to paint, try a different hobby. I don't believe that to be an elitist attitude, I think an elitist attitude would be to expect all people to paint well.
Come on, with things in existence like "The Dip", you can color block figures and then dip them and have an army that would look better than anything I painted back in 1969.
And it would take relatively little time.
Oh yeah, as to the time thing, in my experience people who don't paint their figs also don't research their collections. They just want to roll dice and play.
So, I would sugget they play Axis and Allies.

I have no problems playing with unpainted figures. If I played by that rule of never using unpainted miniatures, I'd never play as I'm a slow painter. Sure you can ask why even play miniature games then and not boardgames and I say because there aren't that many boardgames I like playing.

Sure if I could have a painted army faster I'd play with fully painted armies all the time. My gaming funds are limited as is my time and I refuse to pay someone to paint them for me as I do take pride in my painted miniatures. To me, paying someone to paint your miniatures for you is a bigger offense than playing with unpainted figs. It just feels like cheating to me.

So my armies are works in progress. Everytime I field them there is something that I've made progress on. Eventually I'll field fully painted armies. I just don't understand the elitism. I'd rather not play with people who are so dead set against unpainted miniatures anyway. There are plenty of people who aren't better than me and are willing to play me.

Any argument from either side of this issue that theirs is the more "inclusive" approach to the hobby is specious, at best. For every potential gamer who is discouraged by the threshold of participation necessitated by fully painted armies on nice terrain, there is another who is put off by slapdash tables full of bare lead.

Some observations so far:

1) never post on TMP when you have been drinking;
2) I won't read thread responses that are longer than about 10 lines;
3) while I agree with the overall sentiment that one shouldn't game with unpainted figures, I'm OK with it if you are testing out the rules or something like that, but never do this at a game convention.
4)strangely, I would have no problem with two Airfix style plastic armies fighting each other in the unpainted state.

I'm struck by the notion that to have some minmum standards is to be Elitist.

Just want to clarify I don't think that is elitist.
I just find the notion that you are required to use only painted miniatures plain silly.

What will happen if people play games with unpainted figures, will they die, will someone else die?
Will anyone actually be hurt?
Or will the people using unpainted figures just have fun and harm no-one?

1) never post on TMP when you have been drinking

Probably good advice, DAF, but if I followed it strictly I would almost never get to post.

Just for the record I don't care if other people play with unpainted minis, but I reserve the right not to play with them.

Perhaps elitist isn't exactly the right term. Snobbish, perhaps?

Angel Barracks, every time someone plays with unpainted miniatures Chuck Norris dropkicks a kitten in the face.

Why do you hate kittens?

I usually provide both sides anyway when I run a game.
But, In cases where someone else does provide troops, its really very simple. I have a rule. If its not painted, it doesn't fight on my table. 3-colors minimum.

That's the rule. No exceptions.

I don't care about your "playing style". (Whatever that means)
I don't care how new you are to "the hobby".
I do not accept responsibility for recruiting new meat into wargaming.
And, I don't care if it makes you cry.

Participation in the historical miniatures hobby means more than just playing in games. If all you want to do is play and you don't actually contribute anything, then stay home. I'm not your babysitter.

Angel Barracks, every time someone plays with unpainted miniatures Chuck Norris dropkicks a kitten in the face.

Why do you hate kittens?

They think they are better than budgies because they have more legs.

Perhaps elitist isn't exactly the right term. Snobbish, perhaps?

Searching for increasingly negative terms with which to characterize those who disagree with you is very unbecoming.

I am shaking in my boots, LOL. I am new, in the process of painting my AB Bavarians but only have a brigade just about finished. I am slow and limited on time.

I am fortunate to be able to pay someone to paint at the same time to speed up having a finished army ready to play. Not everyone can do that. Granted some brigades will look better than others because I hired one of the best but, I cannot wait to bring my army to my first game. Now if you are not going to paint then why bother, you might as well play with paper soldiers because unpainted figs have no appeal.

"Searching for increasingly negative terms with which to characterize those who disagree with you is very unbecoming."

Fair point!

I personally don't ever use unpainted minis, which makes me the odd man out around here. For me the whole point of gaming with minis is the spectacle of good looking armies, bare lead just doesn't look good.
In the past we even had painting nights every week, but some guys have just refused to paint for the last 25 years. Not because they lack the free time, they just choose not to paint.
I'd also like to say I do not enjoy painting, but it is a means to an end.

And Chuck Norris would never harm animals! Unless they were commies!

the word elitist was used more than once (by others) earlier in the thread to dismiss those who are critical of people who use unpainted figures, Angel

- it struck me as odd, as I have an opinion on guys who use unpainted lead on the table which most emphatically is elitist, but which I have not seen reason to share.

for now, I am now pondering which is the more negative term – elitist or snob – and quite where the difference lies.

Hi,
How does the "I'm not tolerating X on my wargames table" attitude encourage anyone and how is it positive?
I'm lucky, I can paint very well and I have the time to do it but not everyone is the same. Rather than condem or "ban" people I'd want to encourage them and work with them. So if someone wants to play me with their unpainted army, that's OK as I can use it as a chance to inspire, help or advise them.
When I started wargaming, back in the days of 40K First Edition, I was already a figure painter, so out of my group I was the only one who had painted figures. However, all of my friends loved my figures and enjoyed the game so they wanted figures of their own. However, none of them knew how to paint so I had to teach them first and then they had to paint their own stuff and all of that took time. Was I wrong to ban their unpainted figures until they learned how to paint and got them finished or did we all have fun and all stay friends? While most of the guys dropped out of the hobby, one of the ones I taught and inspired went on to become at least as good a painter as me.
Also, here is another question: What about boxed or board games? I have a copy of third edition Space Hulk and I'd like to play it but painting the miniatures which come with the game is very low down on my painting priority list. So, can I play the game with unpainted figures, as it comes, treating it like any other board game or should I wait and play it only when I eventually paint the figures?
Does the "no playing with unpainted figures thing" extend to board game components or is that ridiculous?
All the best,
George.

I have to admit I didn't come across this sort of problem until exposure to the world of TMP (which pushes wargaming, fantasy and 'minis gaming' into a single melting pot) …

Sure, occasionally someone (with due apologies) would field 'work in progress' that was barely in progress. Others would apply an unconventional aesthetic … but nobody would dream of just not bothering.

But asking around, it seems amongst the GW fraternity, this kind of thing is common (indeed, a fellow traveller – who ought to know – tells me that 'undercoated' is considered sufficient in many GW circles) …

For me, wargaming is about enthusiasts coming together to enjoy shared enthusiasms … it is all 'one man's meat' and 'my set of assumptions' etc., but the bottom line is that what's in each of our 'hobbies' is what we want and mutually agree on.

I agree with Keraunos … We are in the same hobby. I don't agree with the local GW shop … We are not in the same hobby.

And it doesn't really matter how many crossover enthusiasts on TMP tell me I am wrong … there are no unpainted goblins in Peter Young's Charge! Or Charles Grant's 'The Wargame'.

@ Keraunos … of course just _being a wargamer puts you into a social elite …

Enjoy the debate,

Phil

"I'm struck by the notion that to have some minimum standards is to be Elitist." – Keraunos

Boom. Target destroyed. Well done!

Bong,

you are conflating two different things.

youngsters starting out who have no choice.

And guys who do have a choice who just won't paint

- either because they can't be bothered (I'd say 85% of them) or who have 'paid out' for the figures, but won't paint them unless they decide they really like the thing enough to make a commitment of their own effort (and I'd bet this is the second time they are using those same figures on a 'new' rule system too).

for the first, as we have all so far agreed – we make time, and encourage (and lend figures)

For the later, I say go play computer games (or space hulk) – your money is not enough to buy instant gratification, this is a hobby which requires you to put some effort in as well – anyone can paint, so that is no excuse.

Ill play with what i want when i want and in whatever condition i want.
If that upsets some people, oh well.

Rees

this is a hobby which requires you to put some effort in as well – anyone can paint, so that is no excuse.

Why?
Why is it required?
Where does it state that you must paint miniatures to enjoy the hobby?
Are the people that say they have fun playing with unpainted figures liars?

This got me to reminiscing about our long ago "battles" circa 1960. We used the small lincoln logs for soldiers and made weapons from the backs of cut out ceral boxes. My friends brother was quite artistic and using the pics from different history books he could make very accurate little recreations. Anyway, those games we had were so much fun that more than once I got in trouble for staying over too late on a school night. Of course when you're 9 and 10 years old you still have active imaginations and don't need things like painted uniforms and realistic terrain.

Hi,
Actually, some people, for one reason or another, can't paint. I know of at least one disabled wargamer who probably can't paint but who likes to wargame, and he's very good at it. For the record, he plays with painted armies but what would I do if he asked me for a game and turned up with an unpainted army? I also remember reading once about a blind wargamer. Should he have to field a painted army even though he can never see it?
I also have to say I've never met lazy gamers who field unpainted armies because they can't be bothered but since they have been reported by many on this thread I suppose they must exist and the thought that they are out there saddens me.
As for the instant gratification thing, well you can do it in wargaming if you are rich enough as plenty of people pay others to paint their figures for them or buy ready-painted figures from E-bay! Someone earlier said they thought that was cheating and personally I would agree with that but I'd never stop anyone from playing with an army they hadn't painted themselves any more than I'd stop someone playing with an unpainted army.
All the best,
George.

While I agree with most of what Clay says…if one of you miscreants showed up at my house this afternoon and said you wanted to play a game of AWI using any rules (Brigade de General anyone?)… I would break out the liquid refreshment, bring out the lead (half of which is unpainted, and I do have two armies) and have a good time.

I refuse to play games with unpainted figures, or poor terrain as well. I also refuse to run games with unpainted figures and/or poor terrain. If you run a game, put the effort into making it enjoyable for everyone.

I have signed up for games at conventions only to show up to a game, and watched a guy gluing unpainted figures onto bases to use for that game….I just walked away!! Pity as it was a game I really wanted to play…still I did not regret my decision.

A lot of harsh opinions here. Given face to face they'd drive noobs away from the hobby…

If your miniatures are not yet painted you can play with mine (I usually have more than one army) or with my brother's ones or tell me how many points you have and we will arrange a smaller game. If you insist on playing with unpainted miniatures we can drink some beers at the pub and talk about the hobby but not play. To my understanding the beauty of this hobby is looking BOTH armies painted.

In my house, my rules!

So unpainted figures when testing rules system for the new participation game is fine (especially so when designing basing systems and confirming how many figures you need for what…)

I have been setting up on the morning of a convention game with figures getting a sealer coat on top of the gloss to matte it down, as the gloss coat was only applied a few hours earlier, after the last of 500 figures were painted and shaded, out of the 2000 figures that went on the table.

I have been known to play fun games at friends houses with all sorts of troops standing in for other troops when trying to decide what the next competative army should be, no wargamers were harmed and at the event the thousands of figures looked bloody brilliant!

I do not paint, I have no time to paint, design figures, create scenarios, write rules, make base boards, try and eke out an existance, visit girlfriend in hospital etc. When I have decided on something to paint, I take the figures assembled to the painter/s with painting guides and colour references etc, and sometimes premixed colours purchased. I then tell him when I want them for, to which of his standards I want him to paint, discuss and close the deal.

I collect said painted figures after an appropriate time, base and game with them!

By the way, I do not paint, not because I am a crap painter, but because I am an exceedingly slow, uncoordinated, cack handed, Bleep-bleep poor painter.

I have tried to become a better painter, but the green legionaires finally convinced me to stop. (I was certain that the colour was blue, it looked blue to me, honest)

I'm curious what the folk who ban unpainted figures think about proxies? What would your reaction be if I pulled out some well painted Panzer III and said I wanted to use them as Panzer IV? Or if I pulled out French in bicornes for a Waterloo game?

Hitman, how would you classify "poor terrain"? Does playing on "poor terrain" alter the nature of the game?

As a solo gamer I still feel the need to paint and base both sides before a game. I wouldn't be mad or offended if you showed up to game with unpainted minis, but I would probably ask if you wanted to skip the game and help you paint instead.

Depends on the player, and there are no hard and fast rules.

Players who we know to be lazy S.O.B's we give them grief. If the kvetch and whine and moan and complain about the time it takes to paint and can't do it we know they're just lazy. On the other hand if we have a 15 year old who is just so eager and anxious to have SOME of his figures in, we allow him to bring in some unpainted stuff.

There's no rules, there's no hard and fast guidelines.

The ONE THING THAT IS STRICTLY VERBOTEN IS TO CRITICIZE SOMEONE'S PAINT JOBS.

Good paint job, bad, we all assume that the player does his best. We'd rather have a few unpainted units from the eager youngster than slovenly paint jobs from the guy who's lazy. But in all cases no one criticizes someone's paint job. We assume all have done their best when they paint.

I think the issue here is Public versus Private games

In public, ie tournaments, demo games, participation games at shows etc, then I think that painted is the minimum standard, and well-painted too, at least for demos and participations. Presumably tournaments will have their own rules for whether unpainted figures are allowed or not? I guess there's scope for a Junior League for beginners who haven't finished their armies yet?

In private, or at a club game, do what the hell you like as long as your opponent is happy!

Some examples-

- When a youngster I regularly used unpainted Airfix etc WW2 troops with painted tanks but so did everyone else. Eventually they were painted as we became more 'serious' but I still remember those old games as great fun even though we organised infantry in 'boxes' (ie 2 boxes of airfix germans versus 1 box of matchbox brits and one of americans)

- Later on I turned up with a group of friends at someone's house to play a game, but we didn't have enough painted troops for the scenario. So we added an unpainted unit of mine. I wasn't that happpy about using them and latecomers took the mick but at lesst it encouraged me to finish them.

- More recently I went to a gigantic club game where a couple of guys had constructed a fantastic 30-foot long D-Day beach with custom-made emplacements, dragons teeth etc. It would have been churlish in the extremem to complain that their DD tanks were simply undercoated after they'd put so much work in!

As an aside, maybe unpainted figured should be used as fantasy/steampunk figures – The Tin Golem army of Herr Doktor Bizarro anyone? White-undercoated figs for 'Ghostly' types, like the Army of the Dead from LoTR?

Paint your figures.

I would not want to play anyone with unpainted figures, and I would find it embarrassing if I arranged a game with someone and they turned up with unpainted figures. Embarrassing because I would not want to play them but I would probably just play the game anyway to avoid the awkwardness. Luckily I mainly play historical wargames and this has never happened. I have never seen anyone using unpainted figures at a 15mm ancients game at a club or tournament in the UK.

Lol funniest thing on TMP so far today. Now I know who not to sit across the table from.

I think for a convention or tournament it would be for the best to have painted figures. Some tournaments even make that a requirement. I will admit I enjoy hearing people say "Nice paint job ",when they play with my figures at conventions, even though I only a 5/10 painter.

Now what I do at home or what you do at home with friends is no one else's business, so stuff it while we have fun. But I have been known to substitute Romans to stand in for another army while I try it out.

Also, here is another question: What about boxed or board games? I have a copy of third edition Space Hulk and I'd like to play it but painting the miniatures which come with the game is very low down on my painting priority list. So, can I play the game with unpainted figures, as it comes, treating it like any other board game or should I wait and play it only when I eventually paint the figures?
Does the "no playing with unpainted figures thing" extend to board game components or is that ridiculous?

Of course it doesn't – that's the difference between a board game and a miniatures game.

In a free world anyone may do whatever he/she likes. A whole convention playing with unpainted figures ? No problem. I, however, will never attent. Inviting me to your table ? Turning down if not all figures are painted. On my table everything is always painted.
Angel Barracks: I am retired and paint often during the day. I also paint for others (friends/fellow-wargamers). If the person you describe (three kids, etcetera) likes to play on my table but has no time and/or opportunity I will gladly paint for him free of charge (unless of course he offers a 2.000 figures 28mm Early German Army ;-)).
I think it is important to make a difference between "no unpainted figures on the table together with my figures" and "no unpainted figures on any table" !

"I'm curious what the folk who ban unpainted figures think about proxies? What would your reaction be if I pulled out some well painted Panzer III and said I wanted to use them as Panzer IV? Or if I pulled out French in bicornes for a Waterloo game?"

You will be politely shown the nice armored door of my home and hushed away.

I ended up playing at my home with friends that share my ideas. It is not just a game… and fun is in the eye of the beholder. I feel sorry and contemptous for those who do not paint or play with proxy. Proxy and unpainted armies (plus some recasts) drove me out of the tournament circle. Not that it was so nice anyway. I am an elitist and a snob, but because I usually try to put have available and painted both sides and also provide terrain is not a problem. I am also available for hire (or sometime even for free) to paint friends miniatures. I have painfully improved my painting style to one that I find satisfactory. I hav e spent huge sums in lovely miniatures just to paint them and have them on the table…

otherwise I have equally huge sums spend in effective map based games with counters done by people like Niko. and unpainted figures are simply rubbish compared to contempary artwork.

@CPbelt:

1st row 107 Panzer Brigade from MMP "Where the Eagles dare" second row Niko Eskubi "La Bataille de France" thirs row Niko's "Help arrives" expansion from "A La Barricadas" both upcoming from MMP. All counter art done by Niko. Also some of the counters of Mark Walker's Lock n Load Production are stunning. Forgotten Heroes 2 and Heroes of the Blitzkrieg are awesome.

Hi,
The reason I asked about painting board game components is that a lot of figure games are sold as boxed sets with everything you need to play. Some games like Space Hulk or Dreadfleet seem more like giant board games than a traditional miniatures-based wargame so I can see how they can almost encourage people to play without painting the figures or models they have.
When I walk past a table with two people playing the board game Battles of Westeros, they are usually playing with unpainted components and I really, physically, see no difference between the appearance of these games and miniature wargames with unpainted figures.
As many others have said, unless the game is being played at a show where you would want to make the best impression possible, or at a club with a clear policy banning the use of unpainted figures, flouting their rules, what people do in their own private gaming is no business of anyone else.
I mentioned before about how I find the "elitist" attitude of some wargamers off putting. In this context maybe that wasn't the right term and neither is "snobbish" but "intolerant" might be better. We can have whatever sort of personal standards we want for our hobby but we should recognise that wargaming is a broad church where diversity is both natural and should be welcomed and where people shouldn't be dictated to by pseudo-experts!
As I keep saying all we are doing is playing with toy soldiers. It doesn't matter whether they are painted or not as we'll be equally ridiculed by the general public in any case and this thread is certainly giving them plenty of fuel for that.
Goodnight and all the best,
George.

I have not played with unpainted figues since I gave up playing with Airfix figures at the age of about 13. I am a member of one of the larger UK wargames clubs and I can guarantee that, on any given club night, there will be at least one game going on with unpainted or merely undercoated figues which are clearly works in progress. Does this matter to me? No. Would I join in one of the games? No, but that is only because they are nearly always fantasy games, which are not my scene.

Some of the attitudes displayed in this thread go beyond self proclaimed elitism or snobbery and are more about intolerance and pomposity and seem to be indicative of people taking it all a wee bit too seriously;).

I prefer painted miniatures in my games. Actually, I forbid myself to play with other than painted figures -well, sometimes I cut me some slack and allow for the odd unpainted base!-.

Said this, I do not mind that my opponent has his army unpainted. It's his choice. It's his game. For me, wargaming with miniatures is a joy because the aestetic pleasure of the painted miniatures in a competitive game environment. For others, it's just the thrilling of competitive gaming what attracts them from the hobby. And still for others it's the miniatures themselves what attracts them… seeing rank after rank of beautifully painted figures gives them pleasure, rather than the game itself. Either choice deserves to be respected.

There is not a "proper" way to approach wargaming. For each of us, it's a different experience.

I don't give a damn if somebody pushes pennies across the table and calls them Old Guard.

However, if you show up at the game shop and expect to play a game I'm in and do that, then no…it ain't happening. Somehow I turn out to be the 'bad guy' though.

And that's exactly what's happening.

Yes, I have in the past played with unpainted figures.

Actually, I played many games with unpainted figures.

One army was my High Elves, which were my first WFB army.

The other was my Eldar Army.

You see I wanted to game and painting 150 figures when you work fulltime and have a family means that the time to paint is limited.

Yes both armies a were painted but I got in many games prior to that happening.

Though I have just stripped the Eldar figures of their paint job. They were one of my first armies and the paint job sucked.

So right now they are unpainted.

I have more of an issue if someone using something to to proxy something else then about unpainted figures.

You see I am interested more in the gaming than the painting.

Which is why most of my Napoleonics 15mm that I have were already painted when I got them.

Yes there are Elitist out there were if you are gaming Waterloo with 1809 French figures they would be upset.

To me 24 figures of French Napoleonics are just that 24 figures of French Napoleonics and would work for any Napoleonic battle.

Yes there are the elitists and they are the ignorant… insult for insult we are together an happy family… (and yes it look much more a family than a gentlemen association).

There are two extremes, but a lot of the "you are snobbish elitists" are so ensconced in the "it is just a game with toy soldiers" that are nauseating to me as I am nauseating to them. I said, I do not play with unpainted stuff, I do not allow unpainted stuff in my games; I do not play romans against French Ordonnances. Other people have no such qualm, but probably they are doing something different than me.

I have also two different set of heer infantry one for early war and one for late. My US infantry is divided in early war, late war and pacific. I like details. You do not? Who cares you are not playing with me.

But calling me elitist miss the point, we are doing two different thing and sadly for you you are not on my same hobby.

what these thread made me thinking is that we have been lumped together so much that the room is feeling quite crowded…

and by the way I do not play with toy soldiers, I do conflict simulations. <add silly grin and stupid expression>