"Help me vent about unpainted miniatures...." Topic

For many years I've watched this cancer of unpainted miniatures infect the hobby…it started with fantasy/40K stuff….moved to historicals via Flames of War and Field of Glory….

I don't tolerate it at any level, but thinking of it infecting Napoleonic wargaming es me off to no end. Why do people even bother with this hobby if they don't use painted figures?

This post is a product of heavy drinking and I disavow any responsibility….good night.

You' re right! I never play with unpainted miniatures

Unpainted miniatures?…No thanks!‌‌…

Bt the way, Happy Wargaming to All

fogsoldiers.blogspot.com

I've seen it with unpainted ancients too – the 'rationale' is that they want to test the army out before painting it, as its this year's competition army (back in the DMB days)

never tollerated on any table I play on.

I think its a symptom of having 'army deals' and multi-unit packs – you can make a one off purchase without any real thought, expecting everything except the painting to be done for you – so you may as well not bother with that last part either.

next step – pre rolled dice, just select the numbers you need from the available pile and save your figures from accidentally being knocked by a stray cube…

I'd make exceptions for new kids, mind you – but only for a brief time. I borrowed armies or joined in others games until I have my own first army painted.

I don't mind playing against a few unpainted units.

I remember a game against one of my old club's most prolific and talented painters. He fielded a beautiful new painted army, but a couple of units were just undercoated and mounted on rough cardboard bases.

We played. It was a good game, and the next time I saw the army, it was finished.

I don't do it myself mind. I finish an army before booking a game. But he is so prolific he figured he could finish the army before our game. He almost made it, but 'missed by that much'. No problem.

And this is exactly the elitist wargamer nonsense we come to expect from some elements of the hobby these days! Really! Who cares if someone doesn't have all their figures painted? Not everyone has lots of time to paint and some armies can be quite large (especially Napoleonic and many Ancients armies). So if I've got a painted army and my friend wants to get into the same game with a particular army I'm going to make him spend lots of money on lead and then wait a year till he's painted his figures? And after that year he discovers that some units don't suit his style? Get over yourselves! In fact, letting someone put unpainted figures on the table and *enjoying* themselves is probably going to spur them on to finish their units. Insisting on an entirely painted force will probably just end up with them getting fed up and wandering off to some other project with less prep-time and you never get your game with them! If *you* don't want to field any unpainted figures, then that's fine! Hey, I'm in that camp! I don't like doing it, although I have used half completed ones once or twice. As long as they y are working on the figures between games and not just consistently putting the same naked lead on the table then it's fine.

It seems to be more of a problem with games in the retail environment. Store owners don't want to lose customers by forcing the kids to paint their figures before having fun with them.

i do not play with unpainted miniatures, I do not play with people with unpainted miniatures, I feel a bit disgusting and quite unhealty.

If you cannot be bothered to paint your miniatures I suppose this hobby is not for you… I accept to play with less than effective rules and with an imperfect medium ("exact" measurement) only for the pleasure of seing nice table and nice miniatures. Otherwise I do not see the point of spending so much money on them. There are lot of map based wargames with better rulesets and very effective counter graphic.

and have ever looked at the hands of a FoW player with an unpainted army? And that was immediatly before the lunch break. He did not even bothered to wash his hand before engaging his "panino".

There's a difference between people not being bothered and an army that is a work in progress. I agree that the former is not what I would like to face off against either, as aesthetics do play a large part of the hobby, but it is also a *game*. So the latter is perfectly acceptable. Why punish people for not having endless hours to paint figures?

In my experience its not "not having endless hours to paint" its just sheet bloody laziness.

If its in relation to a show, demo, participation or a tournament then yes I would expect them to be painted (to at least the 3 colour rule and based)

I personly do not like playing with unpainted figures, but I have fielded a 40K army that was over half painted and the rest undercoated while building an army and learning the rules with a fellow gamer at our club, but that army is now all fully painted, I just have the extra bits I bought to use to do, though these will not be fielded till painted)

So if someone has a army in progress and is learning rules and its just between friends then not an issue to me (If I know they are painintg in pregress)

But if for a demo/participation or tournament game then I would expect them painted as painted miniatures are part of the game in order to "show it off"

Al

I think there's a difference between:

"I cannot be bothered to paint these miniatures"
and
"I know these aren't painted yet, but I'll get to them (eventually!)"

The former is rightly to be frowned upon, but the latter should have some understanding, particularly in the case of a young gamer.

Problem is, how do you tell which is which?

Hi,
Well, personally, I prefer to field fully painted armies but I can see why other people don't. As I've said before, we are at saturation point with new rules and figure ranges and sometimes the only way to test new rules properly is to play them. If you have limited time to paint (and I think most people do) then that might mean you field unpainted figures until you have evaluated your rules or worked out that your project is worth persuing. Evaluating a game by using unpainted figures is still (in my opinion) way better than using cardboard counters or paper miniatures, using them is too much like boardgaming for me.
Also, since when did our hobby become a job! If people can't paint their figures it doesn't necesserily mean they are lazy nor should they be accused of this!
I have to say that I agree with a lot of Goodwood's point of view in that there is FAR too much elitism in wargaming and far too many people who are taking the (childish) pastime of playing with toy soldiers WAY too seriously. We are supposed to enjoy what we do and let others who share our hobby enjoy it too!
Al the best,
George.

We are supposed to enjoy what we do and let others who share our hobby enjoy it too!
Al the best,
George.

You would think, but there are a lot of people who think that if you are having fun in a way the differs from theirs, it is incorrect fun.

In my case it's not having the hours. But I don't game with unpainted figures. I get to game about 3 times a year so I can get what I need painted by then. I test play rules with primer painted figures, but only at home. Getting ready for a convention game and I ma painting like made to complete units.

As someone mentioned above, it is the visual aspect of the hobby that comes into play here. Plus I picked a scenario to run that forced me to paint my Sudan Egyptians instead of using my British which are already painted. The motivation of a project can help me focus my spare time on the goal instead of dabbling here and there on various projects.

Just my take.

Matthew

To my way of thinking playing with unpainted figures is like…..
An unpainted car in a Nascar Race
Playing golf with your foursome in your pajamas
Going on a date with your best girl in a ripped tee shirt
Bringing burnt toast to a pot luck dinner
Throwing a birthday party for your kid without making a cake.
All in all showing disrespect for the time and effort others have made with whom you are spending valueable leisure time with. Not sure why such things would need to be explained or defended.

> Who cares if someone doesn't have all their figures painted?

I do, pure heresy…

Want to try out the army, print out some counters and use those.

All in all showing disrespect for the time and effort others have made with whom you are spending valueable leisure time with.

What if someone turned up with unpainted figures to play you at a game but heaped praise upon your well painted figures, infact this person said that one day he hoped to be as good a painter as you and asked for your advice as he was so ashamed of his painted figures he was too emabarrased to bring them?
Though of course with his demanding job and 3 children to raise, not to mention his illness that leaves him with little time for painting he struggles to find the time/energy to paint what he has.

Would you find that person lacking in respect?
Or would you show him some respect and try to offer advice, maybe even treat him like an equal that has different priorities to you?
Or point out that his leisure time is less value to him than yours is to you and that you are a better person as your fun is more respectful than he can ever hope to imagine?

In what way do counters differ from unpainted lead when set across from your lovingly painted army. And I agree with all the cases about demo/tournament games. If it's for public display…absolutely everything should be painted. Likewise, if you're putting on a game at the club, you're responsible so it should be painted. Saying that you don't tolerate it on a table you play on is simply being churlish.

As i have posted this story in the past, some here have already heard it.
The use of unpainted or partially painted castings are is not new.

back in texas in the 1970s our groups Austrian player had limited time to paint. So he primed all of his castings white, then as a reward (battlehonors) for a unit doing good in a game he would reward it with another color added to it. So as time went on you come tell the most successful units. The funny thing was that there were fully painted militia units and Grenadier untis that were still almost all white. He nicknamed his army the 'Ghost legions'.

I will not name names but but many players, some well known on TMP have fielded partially painted armies in Napoleonics back in the far past.

So it is an irritant that exists and affects all types of gaming.

Waaaaaaaay back in my teens I fielded unpainted units when I'd run out of time… but it was only once. To show the respect in which I held my opponents I forced myself to haev every unit painted for the rematch. The paint job was not perfect, but it was done.

So yes, I'll give benefit of the doubt for a first timer and even help them out with painting and basing if needed. But the second time, I want to see finished units.

the lack or respect comes from the guy saying, 'I've got an army to face that nice one of yours, lets arrange a game next week' when in fact, all he has done is place an order for figures.

a respectful opponent would say he wants to get an army to face your excellently painted figures, and asking are you able to provide enough figures to allow the two of you to try out a few games while he finishes some painting.

- I struggle to understand how it is acceptable to buy the rules and the figures 'to try the rules out', but its no problem at all to not put any time into painting them until you know you like them
- really, if you have that much money, you should be paying for them to be painted as well.

Rule 1 of any forum: don't post when you have been drinking.

Life is too short and other things are far too important to start getting upset over unpainted figures.

I'm sure peeps who insist on playing with naked soldier figures can find endless fun playing with others who's lead or plastic is in a similar state of undress, power to them. They will not be playing on my table however, I'm happy to live with all manner of shyte codex or unusual novelty creation armies but to not bother even trying to provide them with a uniform is a poor example of war gaming as a hobby.

I assume stamps are still a necessary part of stamp collecting, a body is still required in doll making, slot cars still need slots and beer is still the expected outcome for home brewers.

I played with unpainted plastic toy soldiers when I was 4 & 5, when I was old enough to be trusted with tins of humbrol and a jar of turps a couple of years later I was straight onto giving my airfix lovelies a uniform via a coat of paint.

So you can play toy soldiers with your unpainted figures or have a crack at painting and try wargaming with your painted figures.

How did I do Clay?

I dont enjoy being in a game using unpainted figures but I wouldnt inflict my irritation on my fellow players. Though if the offending players had other more pressing faults I would find reasons not to be available for future games.

Luckily my group hasnt anyone who would think to have a game with unpainted figures.

Good counters are much better than unpainted figures…

all hail the Great Niko Eskubi…

Unpainted figures on the table+bad form. Paint them' pay to have them painted or sell the lead off as scrap and let someone else have a go at them.
One level up from this affront is the terrain the DBA guys use in their games-come on man.

Prefer painted but have used unpainted to make the OOB work for try-out game. Not a biog deal for me, and I try to encourage my kids by playing with their stuff whatever state it is in.

That is not to say I don't understand the strong views others express here, but I personally think it is not the be all and end all deal breaker.

I play with people I want to play with, and I don't play with people I don't want to play with.

Zo, Herr Michael "Angel barracks", if zat iss undtdeed your real name…Ve undtersthand U haff zee idea zer is more zan vun vay to haff ‘fun' vith der tenziemettalensoldaten? Ziss iss most distressing….most distressing….

Zigarette?

No, so sorry, ve haf no matches for you…tell us more about zese udder kinds uff ‘fun', yess? Ve haff statements from zose zat say you are producing der tenzieunpainttenmettalensoldaten yourself? Do you deny ziss?

Yesss… yes, ve vould lik to let you go mien Herr, but it appears ve are at, how you say ‘und impasse',yes?
Ze party iss very clear on zese matters. I, uff course, agree vith you…ve are civilized, yess? Men uff ze Vurld? But my handts are tied, you unterstandt? Ze party vishes der tenzieunpainttenmettalensoldaten to….dissapear…ziss iss der vorld ve liff in, Ja?

Fritz, escort Herr ‘AngelBarracks' downstairs for further… persuasion….

If one is to be a miniatures war gamer one should either learn to paint, or work out some sort of deal with one who can. If this is too much then might I suggest the many excellent board games that are about? There are even computer games.
When I started I was much more interested in playing games than painting. But I wanted to field my own troops and my fellow gamers were quite right to insist on painted armies.
If you want me to play at your table, or at mine, all our little guys have to be properly dressed to meet the enemy.

Add bizarre substitutions to this list. "I'm using hoplites for the French Old Guard and Numidians for light cavalry.

Mr. TBone Slim, if indeed that is your real name, you have no shame. I would like to party with you but gaming is out of the question.

We allow folks to play with unpainted figs if they are new or starting a new army/period, but "highly encourage" them to get them painted over the course of time. One way we do this is to provide bonuses to painted units or penalties to unpainted ones. (ie extra dice, higher morale, a number of re-rolls, less movement). This usually entices our repeated players to get their armies finished.

Back in the day I'd play with piles of plastic Airfix figures. I say piles because they weren't based, and it was a pain to stand them all up, and one jolt of my mom's dressing table, and they would all fall over anyway. Perhaps one in twenty were painted. And I once saw a picture in a book of a French Imperial Guardsman that was wearing a bicorne, so I thought it perfectly acceptable to pile up 100 or so Airfix American Revolution infantry [a few had painted blue coats which made them French], and call them the Imperial Guard. It worked for me, but then I discovered I enjoyed painting figures too. That became a part of the hobby. I painted like a demon, anything and everything, then I decided that the army opposing me should be painted too. So I told my gaming buddy that he had to paint his figures before they could be fielded in a game. The next weekend, his army showed up. To be kind, and I'm sure he'd agree, it wasn't painted to he highest standard, but hey they were painted. There was one unit, that had green jackets and white trousers, I asked who they were. The answer was, 'the Loyal Lusitanian Legion'…. okay, they certainly fought just as well as my figures.

I moved on from those days in the mid 70's, and now have large painted collections. I tend to paint two armies together, so I'm not relying on an opponent to field units, and especially, unpainted units. But this wouldn't stop me supporting an opponent who wanted to introduce painted units from his own collection to the armies. If he or she is just starting in the hobby, this enables them to start slowly, adding a unit here or there, building up to a brigade, then a division. If they can't paint, yet can afford to get them painted, then ship the lead or plastic off to the far east, and wait a couple of months.

Bottom line, I'd say we need to be supportive of all comers, but with fair ground rules as to what is and what is not acceptable on our tabletops. For the newcomers to the hobby, we certainly have to be a more tolerant, and not expect too much.

npm

10 x LOLZ @ Grand Quartier General.

:D

As it goes I won't field unpainted miniatures, infantry, terrain or otherwise and anyone that is familiar with my 6mm Hougoumont will know how much attention I will lavish on a one off piece.
Well I say one off, I spent over 200 hours doing my 6mm Hougoumont and have not even used it in a game.
Does that make me the most elite as I spend so much time and then never even play with it?

Or am I elite because I am happy to do what I do and happy for others to do what they do?

Ooooo, what game are those counters from?

It's a hobby. Do as you like and shut your mouth instead of slamming others. I got sick if this same in model railroading, where people attack each other because they don't like a certain railroad someone models.

Grow up, fellas. You're not 12 years old anymore.

Good Morning, everyone. I am waking up in fog to see a lot of discussion….

Mr. GoodWood, let me get my brain started on a Monday morning by destroying your pathetic arguments.

"And this is exactly the elitist wargamer nonsense we come to expect from some elements of the hobby these days!"

So you think my attitude is new to the hobby? The whole point of the hobby ALWAYS was to wargame with painted figures.

"Really! Who cares if someone doesn't have all their figures painted?"

I do. It affects me when I pay $20 USD to sign up for a tournament and my opponent dumps a bag full of unpainted dwarves on the table and tells me that he's proxying them for Hoplites.

"Not everyone has lots of time to paint and some armies can be quite large (especially Napoleonic and many Ancients armies)."

Bullspit. Do you have time to glue the figures together? Do you have time to read the rules? Do you have time to write an army list? Do you have time to play the game? So you have time to do EVERYTHING ELSE in the hobby, except paint….

"So if I've got a painted army and my friend wants to get into the same game with a particular army I'm going to make him spend lots of money on lead and then wait a year till he's painted his figures?"

No. He's going to borrow an army while he works on his. And yes, it can take a whole year to paint an army. That is perfectly okay – this is not a hobby of instant gratification.

But your argument is a false one, because it's not new wargamers that are the problem. They wouldn't even think of playing with unpainted figures if they didn't see you doing it first.

The problem is with wargamers who already have armies. They are just too lazy to paint and are so competitive that they need to 'try out' units before deciding if those figures are worthy enough to grace his paperbag of crap.

"And after that year he discovers that some units don't suit his style?"

What the hell is 'suit his style'? You realize this is HISTORICAL miniatures, right? We fight battles with armies that actually existed.

"Get over yourselves!"

Get your out of the hobby shops. They get suckered into the false belief that allowing people to play with unpainted figures will increase business. It doesn't. People are attracted to this hobby when they see nice looking battles on the tabletop. And when you lower the bar, requiring very little commitment from them, then they are likely to abandon the hobby.

"In fact, letting someone put unpainted figures on the table and *enjoying* themselves is probably going to spur them on to finish their units."

When? I have NEVER seen that. Give an inch and they take a mile.

"Insisting on an entirely painted force will probably just end up with them getting fed up and wandering off to some other project with less prep-time and you never get your game with them!"

Fine. That's no loss.

"If *you* don't want to field any unpainted figures, then that's fine! Hey, I'm in that camp! I don't like doing it, although I have used half completed ones once or twice."

you can't even put forth a factual argument.

"As long as they are working on the figures between games and not just consistently putting the same naked lead on the table then it's fine."

Leave them at home as you work on them. In the meantime, you can borrow my troops. There is ZERO excuse to infect this hobby with this disease. If too damn lazy, pick a hobby that doesn't require painted figures. There are plenty of other options.

…ah, much better….I know you're a smoking hole in the ground right now….thanks for letting me vent on you.

To get this back on track… (yeah right)
When I was in L.A. our group allowed primed armies to start, but you better be making some progress on it.
My Late Imperial Romans and Ancient British got their start this way. Half the Brits are still unfinished 20 years later, but there are sooooooooooooo many of them… Still over 200 foot to do.

AB, that Hougoumont IS awsome…I'd say your level of craft makes you elite, and your inclination toward patience and inclusiveness just makes you a good guy.

I only use unpainted figs in test games when designing the club convention game.

I usually paint figures first before scenery.

Never used unpainted figs or scenery in public, the embarrassment would be too much.

If too damn lazy, pick a hobby that doesn't require painted figures. There are plenty of other options.

Where in the laws of any country does it state that the hobby of wargaming requires painted figures?

I don't mind people using unpainted/undercoated figures provided there is a good reason. One reason for some is that a game may be in a period where they don't yet have a completed army. And especially if you want to get juniors to come and play – but I wouldn't expect to see the same unpainted figures twice.

Another reason that I have seen is players who completely lack confidence in their own painting, but can't afford to pay someone else, so they put off actually painting.

And I think taking an elitist attitude doesn't do much to encourage new players.

At the end of the day, it's your own business, as long as it isn't a club demo.
But it does puzzle me why someone would want to reject all the aesthetic reasons for playing with nice toys instead of board or PC games.

Interesting you've encountered unpainted miniatures with Napoleonics. I've gamed on 4 continents over 40 years, I've never encountered unpainted miniatures in historical gaming and do not like the idea.

Unpainted figures do seem to be a feature of the "Games Workshop Hobby."

NPM,
I myself am a member of the 'paint 2 armies at once' school. Same reasoning. I find it nice when I go to my friends house who does same, and look always forward to not transporting my figures and still having a game.

I recall back in 1972, myself and three friends rushing to get Der Kriegspielers painted (not great figures, and our painting was unmentionably bad)to get a Waterloo Campaign done (our first) using Napoleonique rules and the Avalon Hill Boardgame. The sight of my spray primed III Prussian Corps on bare cardboard bases occupying hills of old medical books still haunts me, but I recall it was that, or not get the campaign in that summer…

As you say, one's table asthetic should be a personal choice, no right or wrong. Having enough figures to bring in new players as they develop their own skills is ideal…

I did it once with my first ever army as I was so keen to play with it. The other players complimented my figure choice and we all aenjoyed the battle. They then gave good advice on how to get figure painted quickly for the next time.

I am glad those welcoming gentlemen ensured that my interest was retained rather than driving me away.

There are case for allowing it. It's not black and white.

I thank you gentelrmen of Bedford; Adrian and Paul Rose, Colin (iirc, who had the skeletons) and one other chap who's name escapes me but he umpired and always did the driving.

I play wargames in the way that pleases me, with people who share my aesthetic sense.

I do not expect or insist that any other gamers conform to my expectations.

I expect them to return the favor.

Good Afternoon Mr Elitist!

"So you think my attitude is new to the hobby? The whole point of the hobby ALWAYS was to wargame with painted figures."

Never said it wasn't. All I advocate is a bit of tolerance and not an atmosphere of elitism and snobbery.

"I do. It affects me when I pay $20.00 USD USD to sign up for a tournament and my opponent dumps a bag full of unpainted dwarves on the table and tells me that he's proxying them for Hoplites."

I already stated that I agree that public display games and tournaments should demand painted figures. Please read my responses before spouting ill-informed rubbish back.

"Bullspit. Do you have time to glue the figures together? Do you have time to read the rules? Do you have time to write an army list? Do you have time to play the game? So you have time to do EVERYTHING ELSE in the hobby, except painting?"

Thank you for making my point! Those of us with little time on our hands have to do all that AS WELL AS painting!

"No. He's going to borrow an army while he works on his. And yes, it can take a whole year to paint an army. That is perfectly okay – this is not a hobby of instant gratification."

So you have every army under the sun for every period ever developed into a game? Man, you rock!

"But your argument is a false one, because it's not new wargamers that are the problem. They wouldn't even think of playing with unpainted figures if they didn't see you doing it first.
The problem is with wargamers who already have armies. They are just too lazy to paint and are so competitive that they need to 'try out' units before deciding if those figures are worthy enough to grace his paperbag of crap."

I don't do it (except a single half painted figure once!). However, that's my choice. If a friend said "hey, I've not had time to paint up the unit for the game on Tuesday, you mind if I still use them?" I'd say "sure, it's only a game!".

"What the hell is 'suit his style'? You realize this is HISTORICAL miniatures, right? We fight battles with armies that actually existed."

Didn't realise that tiny metal men have ever actually clashed in real life! I must read more history books!

"Get your out of the hobby shops. They get suckered into the false belief that allowing people to play with unpainted figures will increase business. It doesn't. People are attracted to this hobby when they see nice looking battles on the tabletop. And when you lower the bar, requiring very little commitment from the, then they are likely to abandon the hobby."

I don't play in hobby shops. Don't think I ever have! 90% of my gaming is at clubs.

"When? I have NEVER seen that. Give an inch and they take a mile."

Does that mean that it'll never happen? How do you become omniscient because I think that would help me quite a lot!

"Fine. That's no loss."

For them, as they find better, more tolerant opponents. Oh, and they have fun!

" you can't even put forth a factual argument."

Moving on…!

"…ah, much better….I know you're a smoking hole in the ground right now….thanks for letting me vent on you."

Glad you feel better. So do I!

At the risk of sounding namby-pamby, all the arguments, from both sides, have some value. But, the notion that because its for "fun",or that it is is "just a hobby", there should not be any standards, rings hollow. True, miniatures wargaming doesn't have set, official regulations like golf or bowling, but I have to agree with JSchutt.
What is the point, after all, of miniatures wargaming, if not to have some ammount of spectacle?