"Best Rules for Grav Tank Battles?" Topic

Just curious to see which rules people like for good Grav Tank battles?

I'm interested in a set, or sets that permit quick play, and damage resolution, but that also allow the vehicles to use automated defensive systems to help protect them, in addition to their passive armor.

Renegade Legion looked promising, but the hole penetration template thing is just overkill to me, unless you are just playing one-on-one duels, or with just a handful of vehicles per side.

Interactive turn sequences are preferred, e.g. not just the plain, IGOUGO rules.

Card activations, or side vs. side activations with some chance for vehicles not to do anything are preferred, so there is some uncertainty as to which vehicles will actually be able to activate, in varying order, at least by me.

Thoughts?

I've played two-player RL: Centurion games with two dozen vehicles and nearly as many infantry squads and finished in an afternoon. The damage template system is nowhere near as slow as you think it is, and vehicles do pop quite easily once they start taking damage past the armor.

That said, Tomorrow's War has a quite good vehicle combat system that meets many of your requirements.

Adding a card activation system to an existing rules set is usually pretty simple (although it would be tricky in TW), the main question being how elaborate you want to get with it.

Hammer's Slammers The Crucible …

The Lardies sci fi rules are coming out soon. I had run a version of RL based on the game when doing the playtest – I honestly do not remember if I used the automated defense like RL did or not though. Usual TFL card driven activation of platoons and big men, etc…

Well I was going to suggest that you look at Tomorrow's War by Ambush Alley but I think you are wanting a bit more chrome. For me personally Tomorrow's War has become my go to Science Fiction rules set.

Well, Renegade Legion is the first rule set where, to me at least, grav tanks felt like grav tanks. They can haul across the battlefield at different altitudes -- higher=faster, more vulnerable, lower=slower, less vulnerable. They feel like really heavily armored helicopters in that sense, rushing to go hull down or NOE near a ridge line or cover, popping up to attack, or doing rapid sweeping assaults. And the arty support in Renegade Legion is cool -- orbital strikes with beam weapons, THOR strikes, HELL rounds, laser guided arty rounds, etc. You stop moving and think you're all safe until some Rods from the Gods hammer you, and a HELL round lights you up -- and then the mobility of a grav tank seems pretty nice! It would be interesting to experiment with penetration vs armor defense rules, instead of the template damage system, and see how that changes the system.

Oh yeah, how could I forget one of my favorite microgames of all time, Grav Armor from Heritage/Dwarfstar. Impossible to get physically any more, but there's a free download here:

link

Mind you, it's not the scale you're looking for at all – each counter is a company and the battlefields are large parts of a continent – but it's still a great game for grav tank fans. Always wished someone had done minis based off the counter art.

Dirtside 2 for details, IRON COW for speed.

Ditto what SBminisguy said. RL really brings out the (theoretical) capabilities of grav tanks. I got a kick out of the speed/control factor. Grav tanks glide around like armored hockey pucks. The faster you go, the easier it is for the driver to loose control. So the tanks start taking damage from running into things. No other rule system does this that I know of. The only problem now, is RL is out of print and it can be difficult to motivate other players to learn the rules.

In addition to Tomorrow's War, there's Dirtside II, available for download:

link

And Future War Commander:

link

BTW: I downloaded Grav Armor as Chief Lackey Rich advised several months ago!

Centurion is one of the best (board games) in terms of combined-arms operations. Each piece (infantry, armor, arty, air, and orbital) has it's own niche of strength, and related weaknesses.

No, you can't have my copy.

Tomorrow's War could work, but how many gravtanks do you want per side?

Thanks for all of the suggestions.

Ideally, I'd like a set of rules that will permit at least 5 – 10 (but preferably 10 – 30) vehicles per side, or so, plus some infantry, with some nice chrome, but not so much that it slows things down too much.

Something along the lines of a mix of the above would be nice, e.g. Iron Cow, or DSII (but without the chits), Renegade Legion without the penetration templates, etc.

I'd definitely like to include orbital fighters for air support on the planet's surface, orbital bombardment, VTOLs, and artillery too. Drop troopers and dropships would be nice as well.

With 30 per side you should stick with Future War Commander.

That'd be the upper limit, for probably an all-day game.

Generally, I'd like to field a platoon or two, to a single company of vehicles per side, so 5 – 15 vehicles generally for each.

If multiple players are in the game, giving them 2 – 3 vehicles each would probably be a good idea, since some may die quickly.

My opinion only, but FWC really doesn't capture the 'feel' you're looking for of a grav tank battle. I've really tried to use it for those type of ultra-tech engagements but it is a bit too samey. It is nothing like Renegade Legion Centurion as SBminisguy so eloquently described.

I wonder if there is a market for a grav tank-oriented game rather than the current market saturation of infantry skirmish games with what often strike me as bolt-on vehicle rules tacked on at the end? You would have to dial the ground scale way out – but that might actually make terrain cheaper and easier to create. I think you'd want something more contemporary than the RL:C penetration/damage system – something much slicker and faster. But I don't think that is an impossible challenge.

I'll agree with L4 but I am biased…

The active armour systems and the number of vehicles/infantry mix means that – on that basis – The Crucibleis is what you've said you need – but it sounds like I'm huckstering so I'll shut up

John Treadaway
hammers-slammers.com

Centurion/Renegade Legion is a company-level game. Wonder if anyone has done a variant with Pen vs Armor instead of template damage?? You can get the rules free on Scribd:

link

link

5-10 vehicles per side is certainly doable with Tomorrow's War, although it won't have quite the level of detail that Centurion did.

Sounds like I'll need to do a bit more research, to check out the various options suggested.

I really appreciate all the input.

No worries John – always glad to hear input from rules writers/sellers, if they think they have something appropriate that would be of use.

Yes, I'm looking for something with a similar feel to Renegade Legion, and/or Iron Cow, but quick playing, and enough chrome to make games interesting, but not so much that the rules bog down.

Seems to me the biggest issues are the potential high speeds of the Grav Tanks on the gametable, and the long weapon ranges, in relation to the scale of the minis. I suspect those are more difficult to overcome than writing, finding, or learning a new set of rules.

As usual John, we agreed … But the boys have to be kept informed !! Disseminating intel isn't "huckstering" !!

Might I suggest you check out the Strike Legion game series? I've played (and had reports of) quite a few game with RL (and other) grav tank conversions; 10-30 vehicles would run anywhere from 30 to 90 minutes of play, and the system has lots of (optional) chrome.

There's a free demo version available here: link

Or you can pick up the complete tactical system bundle (4 books) here: link

And you can download free army lists for RL and many other minis here: link

All of the titles are also available individually and in print form in case you don't care to print out the PDFs.

:)

No love for Striker ? With 6mm fig's, I imagine you could have some pretty wicked tank battles on a large table.

While i dont get a chance to play a much as i would like (work, family etc), i am not persuaded that the definitive sci-fi armour rules exist (if such a thing could ever be claimed). But there is some ambiguity here. By sci-fi armour games i am talking about larger armour engagements. But in a sci fi setting, i am not sure that this would be happening except on a very large scale, possible like the Dwarf Star Grav Armour rules referred to above. A few games at the local club have led to the suggestion, "How does this really differ from the Eastern Front in WW2?"

Can you imagine what would differentiate a sci fi endo-atmospheric game and make it distinctive from a modern game, apart from relative speeds and manouverability?

I am sure that many of the rules available produce good games. I know because i have tried some. But I am not sure they really capture the sci fi elements as well as they create a game. I am interested to see RL and i have Strike Legion to play too, but can they create that elusive sci fi feel?

I also think scale is a big issue. if there was more 2mm sci fi available, i would be trying it and save my extensive 6mm collection for large skirmishes of the type the pictures Slammers-The Crucible portrays. Who has a table big enough to accomodate large units of armour without crowding the table?

Striker and Striker-II suffer to an extent from the same problem of many other sets in that the ranges for firing and movement are so large that a tabletop game at the ground and timescale they use with grav armour is not satisfying. Striker especially is a platoon of infantry game like almost all the more modern rulesets.
Striker-II has more potential, especially if you tinker with the groundscale to be 1" = 50 metres. But the grav tanks are still essentially ground tanks that move further.

I have converted Grav Armor to miniatures and it works quite well. I also recommend DS2 for a fast play set of rules.

I got a kick out of the speed/control factor. Grav tanks glide around like armored hockey pucks. The faster you go, the easier it is for the driver to loose control. So the tanks start taking damage from running into things. No other rule system does this that I know of.

That's probably because it isn't a grav-tank. Gravity would repel from the center of the mass not the surface. What you have there is a electrostatic repelling force vs. the surface. But, we had this discussion on another thread.

@Mobius: You're also trying to deal with up to 200 tons of grav-tank flying at hundreds to thousands of kph.

It might be "weightless" due to the antigrav, but it still has mass, which means inertia.

Inertia over-rules antigrav.

aren't all anti-grav vehicles equipped with inertial dampers and physics-suppressors?

@Billthecat: Depends on the universe, not the writer.

EE Smith's Lensmen series explicitly has inertial dampers, while his Skylark series does not (IIRC).

The Renegade Legion setting does NOT have inertial dampers even with obscenely-overpowered space drives capable of pushing fighters to 15 gees.

aren't all anti-grav vehicles equipped with inertial dampers and physics-suppressors?

Most of the books with this have logic-suppressors. They create a universe where this type of thing happens but then don't follow through and apply it to all aspects of their universe. Mostly to cause story themes that people today can understand. Like the inertial dampers used to explain flying tanks but don't use it as a weapon and shoot it at the enemy and have them fly into space or something even more devious.