" US commandos parachuted into N. Korea: report" Topic

A great way to make N.Korea even more paranoid isn't it? With the amount of tunnels that are thought to be in N.Korea how would you game using one or more of them? Especially for a surprise attack. Robert

"US commandos parachuted into N. Korea: report
by Staff Writers
Washington (AFP) May 28, 2012

US and South Korean special forces have been parachuting into North Korea to gather intelligence about underground military installations, a US officer has said in comments carried in US media.

Army Brigadier General Neil Tolley, commander of US special forces in South Korea, told a conference held in Florida last week that Pyongyang had built thousands of tunnels since the Korean war, The Diplomat reported.

"The entire tunnel infrastructure is hidden from our satellites," Tolley said, according to The Diplomat, a current affairs magazine. "So we send (South Korean) soldiers and US soldiers to the North to do special reconnaissance."

"After 50 years, we still don't know much about the capability and full extent" of the underground facilities," he said, in comments reported by the National Defense Industrial Association's magazine on its website.

Tolley said the commandos were sent in with minimal equipment to facilitate their movements and minimize the risk of detection by North Korean forces.

At least four of the tunnels built by Pyongyang go under the Demilitarized Zone separating North and South Korea, Tolley said.

"We don't know how many we don't know about," he admitted.

Among the facilities identified are 20 air fields that are partially underground, and thousands of artillery positions.

In February, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported that had built at least two new tunnels at a nuclear testing site, likely in preparation for a new test."
link

I'm skeptical – seems too likely to lose a man, and how much intel can one guy on the ground provide?

and how much intel can one guy on the ground provide?

Depends on the man.

Count me as skeptical as well – even if they are doing this why the heck would they talk about it?

Doug

> A great way to make N.Korea even more paranoid isn't it?

I think they are already, and have been for some time, at max paranioa anyway.

With the editor too, sounds fishy. More likely they have contacts in the NK military that give them details on the tunnels. Just not all of them.

If this is true, then a general just "got his reassingment orders / retirement paperwork" started….

If this is true, then there is going to be a SERIOUS conversation with said general about something called "OPSEC"…

If this isn't true, it's pushing Kim's buttons to see what/how they are going to react, and how many of the "usual suspects" they are going to round up and do the "9mm Waltz" with….

If this isn't true then some journalist who mixed/made things up, (in the traditions of Greeley and Hearst), could be starting an international incident, depending upon how the NK's react..(they won't respond…they will react)…

Yeah, probably just a way to get Kim to reduce the population of North Korea a little over the next few weeks. Although, this administration has had the disturbing habit of late of giving away just exactly what we know and how we learned it…

Looks like a smokescreen to protect a more valuable intelligence source, or to make believe the NK that the US military capabilities to watch them via satellites are worst than they actually are; or may be even a combination of both.

They are learning their PR announcements from the Iranians…?

So? If you were to game a N.Korean attack from tunnels under the DMZ or just in front of it how would you handle the surprise element? How would your US or S.Korean forces react? How would you counterattack? Robert

Looks like a smokescreen to protect a more valuable intelligence source, or to make believe the NK that the US military capabilities to watch them via satellites are worst than they actually are; or may be even a combination of both.
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Most likely – in the same way that major terrorist and drugs finds are always "following a routine check" – to protect a decent source

Though the funny thing with these is that so many members of the public take it at face value and go on to berate the security services etc for being so incompetent that it was only a lucky 'random stop' that foiled the evil plot!

If you were to game a N.Korean attack from tunnels under the DMZ or just in front of it how would you handle the surprise element? How would your US or S.Korean forces react? How would you counterattack?

My US forces would assume from the PRK soldiers' appearance (pale, gaunt, emaciated, glassy-eyed from malnutrition) that they are zombies clawing their way up from the grave.

So they'd shoot them.

"Although, this administration has had the disturbing habit of late of giving away just exactly what we know and how we learned it…"

You've confused it with the previous administration, whose VP's chief of staff was sentenced to prison for phoning secrets to journalists.

What a crock, Tuscaloosa. Yo need to read something besides the NY Times and the Huffington Post!

It's more then likely we already know where the tunnels are. Satellites can show minute changes in temperature so a tunnel under the ground will show up very clear. After all if we can find ancient trade routes in the desert, I am pretty sure we can find tunnels.

As for the leak its probably to stir up trouble and see who is really in charge of N. Korea.

I hope that the tunnels that are on our side have Poison gas ready to be pumped in at a moments notice or rigged with explosives.

Well in the early 80s I was attending an engineering college in colarado that was noted for its Mining Engineering degree. Across from the schools regular mine used by the mining engineering students was what was called the experimental mine. The scope according to the grad students was that it was a CIA/DOD run mine where they tested listening and other devices to determine if they worked in dectecting mining operations. Devices that worked were then sent to South Korea to listen for North Korean mining attempts under the DMZ.

There is a way of detecting mining operations that is so simple, you wouldn't believe it. I am not sure it has been declassified yet either.

There are a number of tunnels under the DMZ. How many and where is definitely classified. I have seen the maps in the mid-80s and the plans for dealing with them. Again, the answer is simple. Militarily, the tunnels will not be that big of a deal because they only extend about 1 km below the DMZ. An attack coming from them would probably catch the guards along the fence by surprise, but the attackers would still be on the wrong side of the ROK main defenses.

The ROKs have turned the south entrance of one into a tourist site:

link

dmztours.com

Back to the original post, something else is going on here. The NKs have a primitive but extensive airborne warning system. Even if we did parachute someone into NK, how do we get them back out? From my 4 years on the Z, you won't walk out. At night, the ROKs shoot first, then recover the body. In the daytime, the NKs shoot first.

"Militarily, the tunnels will not be that big of a deal because they only extend about 1 km below the DMZ. An attack coming from them would probably catch the guards along the fence by surprise, but the attackers would still be on the wrong side of the ROK main defenses."

Is that under or below to 1 km or beyond the DMZ?

joonchang8.blogspot.com

"From my 4 years on the Z, you won't walk out. At night, the ROKs shoot first, then recover the body. In the daytime, the NKs shoot first."

Better run while it's dusk then!

The tunnels are 40-160 meters underground. They extend 1-1.2 km south of the 2 km wide DMZ. They are more of a road to get men to the front safe from air and artillery attack than the means of a surprise attack.

So if the NK were massing for an attack using the tunnels to move troops safe from air and artillery attack how would the US or S.Koreans interdict them? Robert

"What a crock, Tuscaloosa. Yo need to read something besides the NY Times and the Huffington Post!"

Scooter was sentenced to 30 months in prison. You need to listen to something besides Rush and Faux Snooze, you might learn real things.

Kaos, the easiest way to interdict a tunnel is to cave it in. Or just set up a machine gun with lots of ammo pointed at the exit. Preparations for both have been made at all known tunnels.

tuscaloosa, Scooter Libby was not convicted of revealing secrets. He was convicted for one count of obstruction of justice, two counts of perjury, and one count of making false statements, all of which stemmed from contradictions in his testimony during the investigation. No one ever proved any secrets were revealed by anyone in the WH.

link

US military denies parachuting into N. Korea
by Staff Writers
Seoul (AFP) May 28, 2012

The US military Tuesday vehemently denied a media report that special forces had been parachuted into North Korea on intelligence-gathering missions, saying a source had been misquoted.

Current affairs magazine The Diplomat quoted Brigadier General Neil Tolley, commander of special forces in South Korea, as saying soldiers from the US and South Korea had been dropped across the border for "special reconnaissance" missions.

But Colonel Jonathan Withington, public affairs officer for US Forces Korea, said some reporting of the conference had taken Tolley "completely out of context".

"Quotes have been made up and attributed to him," he said, denying that any US or South Korean forces had parachuted into the North.

"Though special reconnaissance is a core special operations force (SOF) mission, at no time have SOF forces been sent to the north to conduct special reconnaissance," he said in a statement.

The Diplomat quoted Tolley as saying that the North had built thousands of tunnels since the 1950-53 Korean War.

"The entire tunnel infrastructure is hidden from our satellites," the magazine reported him as saying at a press conference in Florida last week. "So we send (South Korean) soldiers and US soldiers to the North to do special reconnaissance."

According to the magazine, he said commandos parachute in with minimal supplies to watch the tunnels undetected.

At least four of the tunnels built by Pyongyang go under the Demilitarized Zone separating North and South Korea, Tolley was reported as saying. "We don't know how many we don't know about."

link

"Preparations for both have been made at all known tunnels."

"At least four of the tunnels built by Pyongyang go under the Demilitarized Zone separating North and South Korea, Tolley was reported as saying. "We don't know how many we don't know about."

Robert

You would think they would get the stories right Robert

"Confirmed: US commandos parachuted into North Korea

AFP
May 30, 2012

US and South Korean special forces have been parachuting into North Korea to gather intelligence about underground military installations, a US officer has said in comments carried in US media.

Army Brigadier General Neil Tolley, commander of US special forces in South Korea, told a conference held in Florida last week that Pyongyang had built thousands of tunnels since the Korean war, The Diplomat reported.

"The entire tunnel infrastructure is hidden from our satellites," Tolley said, according to The Diplomat, a current affairs magazine. "So we send (South Korean) soldiers and US soldiers to the North to do special reconnaissance."

"After 50 years, we still don't know much about the capability and full extent" of the underground facilities," he said, in comments reported by the National Defense Industrial Association's magazine on its website."

link

"No one ever proved any secrets were revealed by anyone in the WH."

Until someone from the Obama administration (not career goverment) is convicted of perjury, obstruction of justice, and making false statements while defending themselves against violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, arguing that Obama's administration leaks more than Bush's administration sounds pretty specious.

Dropping tall well fed muscular individuals into starving North Korea is like chumming the waters for sharks.They will be overrun and there will be no body recoveries.

Dropping tall well fed muscular individuals into starving North Korea is like chumming the waters for sharks.They will be overrun and there will be no body recoveries.

Unless you abuse the superstitions of the pre-Kim Korean culture… paint them up like demons (or whatever the Korean equivalent is).

Exactly kyotebluer than blue. Please try to stay on topic people. This is not a POLITICAL comment thread. Take it to the Blue Fez where it would be most appropriate. Robert

Al Capone was never convicted of anything aside from tax evasion. So he was never a gangster. Just sayin…

In college I had an assistant math professor from South Korea. One day we started talking about his mandatory time in the ROK on the DMZ. It sounded like a pretty grim duty. He mentioned the tunnels, but told me they were fairly certain where all of them were.

The whole report sounds supect to me … 1) The US Military would not need to do it to get the intel. 2) Amazed if it did occur anyone in the military would say anything about … Of course it could be "dis-information" … for a number of reasons … When I served two tours on the DMZ ('84 and '85), we knew about a number of tunnels. And the US/ROK Armies had tunnel detection teams out and about … I think Cold Steel was with a US Armor unit in the ROK about the same time I was with a US Mech Bn … And yes, the ROKs shoot first … We had to be careful our patrols didn't stray out of sector into ROK patrol areas(or vis versa) … in the dark. Easier to do than you think … happened once or twice when I was on the "Z" … We had very good Patrol Leaders and a "shoot-out" was averted.

Some nice photos here,
link

Robert

Unlikely to be true. Very difficult and dangerous and little if any point.

NK is not a serious military threat – could be a nuisance but nothing more.

The real worry is China.

NK is not a serious military threat to the US. However, Seoul is within range of so much artillery that you need to measure the damage in kilotons/minute.

"NK is not a serious military threat – could be a nuisance but nothing more"

I wonder if the South Korean government feels the same. Robert

Oh and I think Japan may think differently too. Robert