"1474-1477 Burgundian and Swiss Armies - Questions" Topic

I am finalising my 1474-1477 Burgundian and Swiss armies and I have a few questions. The armies are 28mm using mostly Perry WOTR and EA ranges. Currently there are 140 Swiss and 110 Burgundian. They are based for WAB or Clash of Empires.

1. Schilling the younger shows some mounted Burgundian Men at Arms in gold plated armour. Is there any historical evidence for this? Are there any gold plated pieces in museums? Would it have only been worn by commanders? (i.e. Should I paint some Burgundian MAA in gold?).

2. The Swiss captured Burgundian artillery at Grandson and at Murten. Did they use it in any major battles? (i.e. Should I have artillery in my Swiss army?).

3. Did the Burgundians actually deploy units of infantry billmen / halberdiers? The foot MAA would have used bills and halberds but were there also infantry. I thought they did but the ordinances suggest only MAA, pike, archers and crossbows. Were bills secondary weapons for the archers? (i.e. should I have units of infantry billmen?)

4. Did Men at Arms fight mounted as shown in Schilling, or dismounted as was normal for English armies at the time? (i.e. I currently have 18 mounted and need to decide how many foot to do).

Thanks
Mick

FWIW, if memory serves, Burgundian MAA mostly fought mounted in this timeframe, but dismounted en masse in at least one of the battles against the Swiss.

Judging by the Burgundian ordinances, there should be Mounted Men-at Arms, who could dismount, Coustillier lighter armoured cavalry, Quite well equipped units of Longbowmen, and possibly some less well equipped--(These bowmen would use sword and buckler in melee), Crossbowmen and Handgunners, and rather a lot of Pikemen.
I guess any halbardiers would back up the pikemen?

The Swiss did capture lots of artillery, but their commisariat would not be up to supporting more than a few light pieces in the field. Medium and heavier guns would be put in position on city walls probably.
The aggressive Swiss attacking style would soon outstrip any artillery support (they would mask their guns etc).

IMHO anyway, I used to wargame Swiss for many years!

My Swiss army has some artillery stands. They are "pretty" useless, for the reason that herkybird says: the blocks of swiftly advancing pike and halberd make using artillery impractical on the battlefield.

Archers everywhere had hand arms as backup. That included halberds/guisarms. The English were famous even by Roger Ascham's day for using their two-handed mallets/mauls as melee weapons.

Burgundian armies employed English archers in large numbers. So maybe mauls would be more likely? Don't know.

The proportion of mounted men at arms to dismounted would be ten percent or less. Armies were moving toward infantry masses and cavalry was diminishing as a percentage of the army as deployed; "cavalry", of course, was actually increasing in number if not percentage, as many troops rode on the campaign but did not fight on horseback.

For the size of your armies, I think that 18 to 20 mounted figures is more than enough.

Artists like "licence", and pretty pictures are eye candy in any age. Ignore the "gold plate". At most, plate had gold inlay, but this was for the filthy rich only….

Not really on topic but I found these two photos interesting:
Henry VIII's armor from his younger "I'm Henry VIII I am" days:

and from the latter "Screw it I just don't want to get hurt" era:

Put on few pounds he did.

Thank-you for the answers so far.

I have decided that I will not have Swiss artillery or golden Men at Arms (…though Charles the Bold may well get golden armour).

The quantity of Burgundian troops by type is still confusing me.
For a Burgundian army with 110 figures, what do you recommend?
How many billmen (currently 24)?
How many pike (currently 20)?
How many archers (currently 24)?
How many crossbow or handgonne (currently 12 each)?
How many foot MAA?
How many mounted MAA (currently 18)?

Thanks
Mick

Sounds good to me! The weakness of Charles' army was a lack of cohesion, due to having too many mercenaries from too many places. So your army mix is reflective of that. In CAN work, but against a swiftly attacking enemy of a singular type, e.g. the Swiss, it probably won't be nearly as supple or resistant.

As men at arms were not the majority trooper in any late medieval army, it seems to me that out of c. 110 figures no more than 50 ought to be men at arms, mounted and foot combined….

Burgundian armies had problems getting the right numbers of troops as their ordinnances prescribed, there was a tendancy to have more pikes at the expense of other infantry.

Based on the battle accounts against the Swiss, I would aim to have:

10 to 20% – Men at Arms, probably most mounted.
20 to 40% – Pikes
20 to 40% – Archers
10 to 25% – Handgonnes and/or Crossbows
Up to 10% – Halbard/bill

I sadly have to disagree with 'Just Visiting'on the use of Maul by archers, this was virtually past by the last battles of the Hundred Years war judging by contempory and near contempory pictures, though the maul is mentioned occasionally into the 16th century as a weapon!

If you want a look at George Gush's 'Rennaisance Armies' entry on this army, go to: link

I would also recommend reading The memoirs of Philippe de Commines, Lord of Argenton.

My Burgundian ordonnance army (under construction) aims to have the same proportions as prescribed in the ordonnance ie. for each men-at-arms there will be 1 coustillier, 3 archers, 1 pikeman, 1 crossbowman and 1 handgunner).

Granted, the companies on the field did not always quite match what was required by the ordonnances, but at least that gives a good starting point for what was being aimed at – I can always leave off some of the forces to reflect that.

As for men-at-arms, I will have both mounted and dismounted versions available, so I will be able to select their ratio as appropriate. My coustilliers will initially be mainly dismounted and armed mainly with polearms (I might at some point arrange to have mounted versions for all of them, too).

As has been pointed out, there was a very big difference between Charles' army on parchment (i.e. those elements that he was prepared to pay good money for), those who actually marched under his banners and the feudal levies he still expected to turn up when called for. It was the unreliability of the latter that he created his 'professional' army.

The Companies d'Ordonnance would fight mounted as a rule – but there is nothing to stop them dismounting – however having looked as far as I can at this army I cn not recall any description of them dismounting to fight, except at sieges.
There is no evidence to suggest that the coustillier were seperated from the Gens'darmes. However these may have provided some useful 'light horse'.

The ordonnances are pretty clear on the weaponry for foot soldiers.

However. Charles expected his feudal lands to contribute lots of soldiers.
There are surviving muster rolls for 1476 (e.g from Lille, Douai and Orchies – towns in Flanders) which require the service of 12 lances and 112 archers (but it goes on to state that there should be 4 mounted archers per lance making a total (the document states) of 200 archers.
In addition
It also lists who should serve as Hommes d'armes. So Gerhardt de Houardrie, ecuyer, on behalf of his brother the monsiuer de Hourderie, should equip him self as a man at arms and have two mounted archers in his lance.

It also talks about people who should pay for other soldiers i.e. Madame de Molebaix, being a lady of some wealth had to provide two mounted archers, Franchois d'Allenes and his wife had to provide two archers on horses and two on foot. Mr de Croix 'ancien et debile' had to fund four archers.
(please note the nightmarish translation from medieval French – sorry)

Overwhelmingly the soldiers are identified as archers, or men expected to provide 'service' I dont know what this means – but believe them to be fighting men of some sort. Occaisionally we are told which company the men at arms are to serve in, mostly in that of the Seigneur de Rosimbos.

I sadly have to disagree with 'Just Visiting'on the use of Maul by archers, this was virtually past by the last battles of the Hundred Years war judging by contempory and near contempory pictures, though the maul is mentioned occasionally into the 16th century as a weapon!

I consider Roger Ascham an authority in the mid 16th century; and since he states how effective the maul was in the hands of yeoman archers it doesn't matter if the surviving pictures don't show them. If longbow are still resorting to using stakes, then the mauls are there; if the stakes are dispensed with, then other side arms are used instead. There was never anything approaching a uniformity of preferred side arms, so we can model them as we wish….

Thanks for the advice.

I have decided to repaint the unit of Burgundian Halberdiers to become Swiss.
I will increase the quantity of Burgundian archers.
I think that I will also duplicate the units of mounted MAA with the dismounted MAA.

Here are some work in progress shots. Recently painted figures will eventually get grass and tufts.

The Swiss are mostly Perry and Mirliton metal figures with plastic cavalry. I need 12 more flag bearers. Some of skirmishers will be replaced with Perry plastics later.

The Burgundians are nearly all Perry plastics. High command are from the Agincourt range as substitutes until the Perry Burgundian command arrive.

Gallery
link

Regards
Mick

I recall reading somewhere tha crossbows, pike and handguns were deployed on a 1:1:1 scale. Hope that helps.

Beautiful job as always Mick!

Ended up checking my copy of "The Burgundian Army of Charles the Bold" (Freezywater Publications 2001) and there on page 41 the authors write:

"The coustilier was expected to back up the men-at-arms with a spear or lance whne mounted and use a polearm to back up the archers when dismounted."

Which for me is a good enough excuse to field a unit of dismounted coustiliers armed with halberds, guisarmes and other polearms.

Dear Griefbringer,
Re dismounted coustiliers – so, it looks like I should not have repainted the Burgundian Halberds as Swiss. I will do some more at some point :-)

I will carry on and will post some more pictures when I am finished.
Mick

At least now you have a new excuse for buying some more Perry figures for the dismounted coustiliers.

I found an interesting article. It appears that significantly less than 10,800 of the Burgundian army in 1476 were ordinance troops. 4,800 were Italian mercenaries and 2,000 were supplied by the English crown. The remainder were conscripted civic militias.

"In 1471 Charles wished to recruit twelve companies of the ordinance, a total of 10,800 men. However, he found it impossible to find a sufficient number of recruits in his territories.
…(in 1473) …he succeeded in hiring Cola de Montforte, count of Compobosso, to serve with his company of 2,300 men.
…In 1474 Charles secured the services of Bartolomeo Colleoni and his 2,500 man unit for a period of three years.
…in 1475 he negotiated with King Edward IV for the services of 2000 English soldiers.
…Charles called out his fieffés and civic militias to serve alongside these mercenaries as late as 1476"

link

I have just finished painting 130 figures as Ordinance prescribed "white and blue with a diagonal red cross". It looks like only half should be in uniform.

You might want to consider that those mercenaries were eventually formed into ordonnance companies of their own, and could have very well been supplied with the white and blue livery characteristic of the ordonnance forces. For example:

* 16th company, formed in 1473, consisted of Italians led by count of Campobasso
* 21st company, formed in 1475, consisted of Englishmen and was led by Sir John Middleton

Altogether there were around 27 ordonnance companies, a number of which were mercenary companies of various sources. For a full list, check out booklet "The Burgundian Army of Charles the Bold" (Freezywater Publications 2001).

Civic militias might have preferred to wear the livery of their home town, though it might not be totally impossible that some of them might have been eventually issued with the blue and white livery.

Thank-you.

That is a very good argumeent for them to stay blue and white :-)

Of course if you ever get tired of painting blue and white, it might be interesting to paint a unit of Low Countries urban militia for change. They could then also be used as a starting point for a possible new Low Countries rebel army.

Do you know where I could buy or borrow "The Burgundian Army of Charles the Bold" (Freezywater Publications 2001)?

Amazon and Ebay drew a blank.

I bought my copy from Vexillia, and they still have it listed:

link

Thank-you – I have ordered it.
Mick

As for battles where the Burgundian men-at-arms dismounted, there is at least battle of Brustem against Liege rebels in 1467.

In this battle, the men-at-arms in the centre of the Burgundian line dismounted, though the men-at-arms in the flanks and in the reserve remained mounted.

Some information on Burgundians by George Gush
& on Swiss

Druzhina
sites of wargaming interest

For the 1474-1477 wars, you are basically talking about 4 battles, Hericourt, Grandson, Morat, Nancy. Plus the siege of Neuss in 1475.

The illustrations of by the Swiss chroniclers show mounted Burgundian men at arms, and archers, but not a lot of pikemen, (given the ordonnances) and actually show more pole-armed Burgundians than not. Go figure.

Colleoni was hired, but the Venetians wouldn't let him go, and he died in 1475. He never served Charles.

The English engaged in 1475 were probably for the siege of Neuss, for which Bachrach also notes that Charles sent to Flanders for Pikemen (whether they showed up is something else again).

The "English company" is interesting, and one wonders whether it was mostly archers, or whether it followed the ordonnances.

It is also interesting to speculate on the composition of Campobasso's company from Italy. At the time it was probably mounted men at arms and missle armed infantry, xbows and handguns, like other Italian companies. Did it conform to the ordonnances or not? The numbers make it look like a double strength+ Ordonnance company--2,300 men where an Ordonnace company of 100 lances would be about 900 men.

Lenzburg castle is hosting a medieval event this weekend. Here are some pictures.
link

Mick in Switzerland – those pictures are wonderful. I've got to say the colours are much brighter than I expected – I somehow thought that the colours would be much drabber until the advent of aniline dyes in the 1830's. Still great possibilities for painting the Perry figures I own.

Dear Littlearmies,

Fabric colours in later medieval times were much brighter than many of us imagine. The same is true also for the ancient world.

Companye of St George have studied the fabrics and construction of garments, so their colours are correct according to the latest research. Their website has articles about medieval fabrics and apparel. One of their founding members is Gerry Embleton who has written a very good book called "Medieval Military Costume (Europa Militaria)". He also wrote The "Medieval Soldier – 15th Century Campaign Life Recreated in Colour Photographs" which contains some of the same photographs but different text.

The same is true for the ancient period. Gordon Sumner has written a good book called "Roman Military Dress".

Both Gordon Sumner and Gerry Embleton have written or illustrated several Osprey books.

Regards
Mick

New pictures on Flickr
link

Good to see these, and congrats on the effort being made here!