"Is the Alamo defensible?" Topic

John

spounds cool..your right en mass the larger figures

do have a wow factor. have a look at King and Countrys

Alamo Chapel frontage piece its amazing and a good price

i believe

regards

Ged

gring040s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

Their model is incorrect. The famous "hump" in the center of the chapel did not exist at the time of the battle. The hump was added by the U.S. Army in the 1850s, when the Alamo was being used as a supply depot. If you google "Alamo Hump" you will get any number of hits telling you that the "hump" was not there during the battle. The top of the front chapel wall was flat.

interesting Rallynow will ensure my Alamo frontage is

humpless thanks for the pointer

regards

Ged

gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

Yeah, I saw that it had the hump. Still, the piece is very nice and it's not a huge problem.

Thanks,

John

John

i have actually ordered the piece and will champer off the

hump as you say its a nice piece and would take ages to

model all those Saints etc!!

regards

Ged

gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

Defensible? Well, no only because the structures were made of mud clay and old timbers, cannon fire ripped right through it. The place was in ruins already. It was in need of major repairs. Col. Travis knew this and pleaded for reinforcements, as history writes.

Was it necessary? Yes, for theory and tactical sake. the battle itself, slowed Santa Anna down, and gave Sam Houston enough time to build somewhat of an army. Luckily it worked. And luckily they caught the Mexican army with their pants down at San Jacinto and defeated them. The Alamo slowed the Mexican army down for at least 12 days.

That being said, yes I would have stayed. Im a Texan and a former Marine, so ofcourse I would have stayed…no question. But I would have liked to prepare the defense of the Alamo a little longer and better.

Maybe a palisade all around the Alamo walls, and probably a few more cannons. And alot of horses available

But without more troops its really hard to see a good result.

A fight and withdrawl tactic, more horses avaible. Hold the walls until almost surrounded and then withdrawl at night. but that is not fun for a game.

Maybe allowing nore reinforcements to arrive, more than 100. and maybe later in the game, behind mexican lines.

I have the Alamo myself, and tons of Mexicans, and little amount of Texans…..

IMO….I think a good game would be maybe, just try to survive 12 days….or 12 turns…to slow the army down, to let Sam Houston time…..maybe that as an objective in the game.

I may just use that idea…

So I would say to play a Alamo game and keep it historically correct….

Make it a 12 turn game…and the objective of the Texans is to keep the Alamo 12 turns or 12 days….even knowing your are going to get slaughtered in the end. You can still win the game if you hold the Alamo 12 days or turns.

The Mexicans obviously is to take and slaughter all the Texans on or Before the 12th turn.

I plan on doing this in my game one day. Glad I read this post…made me think. I have always wondered myself…why play a game, and know you are most likely going to be slaughtered every time.

If the Texans hold for 12 days, then history stands as is. If not, the Mexicans win the battle, and Sam Houston hopes fall apart.

Just my thoughts, while I work

Tom

John

i have actually ordered the piece and will champer off the

hump as you say its a nice piece and would take ages to

model all those Saints etc!!

regards

Ged

Ged: it seems a shame to change the appearance of your pre-made model. While it may be historically incorrect, the shape of the Alamo is rather iconic and immediately identifies the game as being "The Alamo". I'd keep it as is.

Ged,
I too would also keep it! This model reminds me of John Wayne's chapel!

Spoke to David at TMT and he'll be starting my 40mm Alamo soon!

All I need now is a range of Alamo figures from Gringo!

Travis

Darclegion……….interesting thoughts….yep i agree

the real key was more defenders……..but with over 1700

Mexicans to cope with an all out four pronged attack at

,now thats a huge problem.! Suprise won the day for the

Mexicans…..and the valiant defenders were far to thinly

stretched. even with hindsight its a difficult one…

Der Alte Fritz and Travis i guess i will have a good look

at this piece when it arrives. im having the whole Alamo

built for me so even the Mexican cannons should be

representative…….Gribauvel et all.

Travis the Alamo range is underway and the first piece

will be a vignette to fill you with pride!! all will

be revealed soon.

regards

Ged

gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

ps with my interest in Mexico im

involved in a few ranges i must finish!!

"the battle itself, slowed Santa Anna down, and gave Sam Houston enough time to build somewhat of an army."

No, it didn't. This is a myth. Houston was still sat on his derriere about a week after the fall. The Alamo bought the Texians a sense of bloodlust, & that is all…

For Russ Dunaway:
Can you give us any estimate on the completion of the 15mm
Alamo itself?

Jerry

My brother, while unwmployed, painted 800 Mexicans and 300 Texicans and constructed a 7 X 4 foot Alamo with complete chapel in 54mm. Takes 2 hours to set up. Wild battle in 54mm.

John Muchael Priest……………ihope to achieve the same

in 40mm…………will take a bit longer!!

sounds cool though

regards

Ged

gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

To answer the original quesiton as long as you allow vulcan mini guns, claymore mines and barbwire. Then yes it is defensible.

with enough men, it would have been defended easily…500 to 1000 men could have held it. However it was made of adobe and artillery fire took its toll. 189-250 men was not enough to defend it. IMO.

So the structure it self is a good defendable place, but without enough troops in any given defence, it is doomed to fail. IMO.

It has been stated that the structure was heavily reinforced with timbers by the Texans at the direction of Jameson and before that by Gen Cos, before the fort was captured by the Texans. The walls were 9 to 10 feet tall, and 2 feet wide. Artillery provided alot of damage, but were still intact during the final assualt. It took 3 waves to take the fort, and that was because they out numbered them overwhelmingly by 10-1. If there were 300-500 more men, especially on the North wall where the "breach" occured. They Texans could have possibly turned back the 3rd wave, and held.

However, Santa Anna did not have any heavy seige cannons, that would have really destroyed the walls faster. The heaviest cannons he had were 12 pounders. Those cannons still damaged the walls, especially the North wall, but it held. The repair to the north wall, reinforced by embrasures and timbers, were damaged heavily, but the breach occured by climbing up the timbers and over the wall. That is said how the intial breach occured.

As far as I have researched, both breaches occured by going over the wall, not thru it.

The casualites of the Mexican army were 400-800, almost 1/3 to 1/2 of their army. That was inflicted by 189 Texans in 30 minutes.

So IMO, if there would have been 300-400 more Texans in that fort, it could have held on that night. But who knows.

But if you look at the mexican casualites inflicted by so few, and that they survived bombardment of many days, one could say it was defendable. However they were overwhelmed being out numbered 10-1.

I game it in 54mm with about 200 – 210 Texicans and 600 Mexicans, using the pre made buildings and the ones my brother made to make it close to scale. The fort measures 4 X 7 feet and I have to stand in the middle. It is a wild game but the defenders cannot win.

If you are Salute tomorrow, you can find out whether the Alamo is defensible or not. Swing by & say hi!

Peter Ustinov seems to have made a good attempt:

link

Alan

Come to Nashcon and find out

TMP link

Apparently a lot of Mexican casualties were 'blue-on-blue'

I am preparing for a 54mm Alamo game this month using the Classic Toy Soldier fort with some additions. That is why I was browsing these old posts, looking for inspiration. I ran a 25mm game in 2016 using the "Come and Take It" rules originally published in the Courier Vol. IX, No. 5. The Texian commander, who had played the same game before, came up with an unhistorical solution, that was not prohibited by the rules. He decided to hold the south end of the fort, but on the first turn, he began to evacuate the west and north walls and prolonged the cannon on those walls toward the long barracks. Even without Texian resistance on the deserted walls, it took some time for the Mexicans to enter the fort and by the time they did, the Texians had formed a three tier firing line on the ground, windows and roof of the long barracks, supported by cannons, that proved impenetrable. Very "gamey", but an interesting exercise that I won't allow to happen again in my games again.

The Alamo in 54 km. That sounds interesting.

Joh

Nick, great to know you are about to run a big Alamo game, my friend! How big exactly??? 54mm is pretty big to start with, but what size armies? Will you be recycling Mexican attackers??? Enquiring minds want to know -- and inquiring ones too!

MG! The fort is 6X8 foot, large enough for me to sleep inside. 350 Mexicans, 80 Texians and 12 cannon. The Mexicans are recycled and assault in 3 waves. If the Texians survive, they win.

Mad Guru, by the way, the rules we used for Camerone: "Not Men but Devils" borrowed heavily from the "Come and Take It" Alamo rules.

Should be 13 days. One model/stand depending on scale rep 10 men/1 cannon. give the defenders option to sally during the first 12 days. bring in 3 models/stands from direction of Gonzales.

Alternate History. Add 30 models/stands plus cannons to those from Fannin's column in addition to those from Gonzales.

The Texans will lose the battle. But they can win the game if you set up the victory conditions so they have a chance.