"Kampfgruppe Normandy review" Topic

Well, 1st off, thanks for the review Anatoli. I agree in many points. For me it was helpful. To be honest a do not understand the whole 15, 20 28mm discussion, KGN can be played with all these minis.
I bought KGN in the sale too and was a bit disappointed. The rules were clear and understandable but a bit bland for me after some games. Nothing over dramatic new, but the same has been said about my Victory Decision ruleset. But – there are only so many ways to peel an egg, or?
;-)
Was ticked me a bit off was the sheer size of the book, way too cumbersome to carry around at the gaming table. Yes lots of cool pics, but I really dislike the amount of historical information. Do not get me wrong I have my share of military history books, but I do not want a rulebook cluttered with too many "fluff". We are paying for these pages!

So thanks again Anatoli!

Funny…

All the guys at my club who bought it, loved the historical stuff as they didnt know it.

Just goes to show, different things appeal to different people.

They were very happy to have had the fluff.

Not wanting to disparage the reviewer or anyone else but IMHO these are a decent set of rules. Certainly not ground breaking in their concepts or systems but nicely put together and presented.
Of course I bought them half price and to be honest they were worth it for the wealth of scenarios alone (most scn booklets are expensive anyhow) never mind the rules and additional info/eye candy within.
The latest 'glossy' type rules are not cheap (Bkackpowder et al) by comparison and FOW rules similarly (never mind the massive expense of supplements)

But to each their own me I say one can never have too much of a good thing

Cheers
Sgtsteiner.blogspot.com

Guess all the new 1/72 stuff from PSC is just my imagination… Not too mention the releases from all the other companies…

What new releases from what other companies?

Grubby tanks has gone quiet, as has SHQ. Haven't heard of new releases from Sgt Major, Warmodelling and Shell Hole Scenics in a long, long time. CP/TQD has only been intermittently churning out old, previously OOP-ranges. All Battlefield did was to release a puny range of British paras and more (yes more) Germans, at a time when 15mm has been tackling increasingly fascinating subjects (the recent Battlefront Libyans immediate come to mind) while Elhiem's focus has become exclusively modern. AB's well of things to come has long since dried up, while Eureka appears to have given up on 20mm altogether.

SHQ have released various middle east stuff, new US and Russians.

Grubby has released Japanese and has two new ranges but is still working on getting all the Britannia stuff back into production. There is also a new range there too.

Blitz/Battlefield have released Germans and British, with early war stuff too.

Early War Miniatures continue to put out new stuff, recently starting on Japanese.

Elhiem are working on 1943 Waffen-SS.

Shellhole are releasing Soviet tanks.

Want me to carry on and mention the new Hobbyden WW2 vehicle range, or S&S remastering their WW2 stuff? What about the other WW2 ranges in development in 20mm? I know of two more…

Just because you dont know whats released, doesnt mean a scale is 'dead'. Unless you game in the scale, you will be ignorant of it.

As I dont play WW2 15mm, nor know anyone who does, I guess thats a dead scale too then…

Im utterly ignorant of any 15mm WW2 releases… But that doesnt mean I think its a 'dead' scale. I dont game it so pay no attention to it.

I think an unbiased appraisal will see that 6mm, 10mm, 15mm, 20mm and 28mm WW2 are all alive and well and going great guns, despite the wishes of some to proclaim this scale or that as 'dead' without knowing whats actually going on.

My first contact with wargaming and later wargaming the WW2 period was made with with 28mm. It's only lately that I started playing 15mm FoW (a scale I intend to use for Victory Decision as well as I think it fits the game better).

I don't think I slammed any scale in my review, neither was it meant to look down upon 20mm wargaming. I just stated that I don't know anyone who plays it around where I live and have in all honesty only seen 20mm models on a few occasions IRL.

If you take into account the "recent" popularity of 28mm and 15mm wargaming which I guess the younger generation of wargamers are more used to – then KGN kind of misses that audience due to their unfamiliarity with 20mm models and manufacturers. Beside the PSC stuff I've not seen any 20mm WW2 miniatures around on the UK/US/Swedish webstores from which I usually buy my stuff. I've seen a lot of 6mm stuff though. Of course I would find it if I searched the internet, but again the familiarity of people used to 15/28mm ties in with the stores from where they purchase their miniatures.

GW/Warhammer Historical went their own way with this release, and beside the expensive book I think the 20mm scale was the second thing that "scared away" potential customers who may have been used to other scales. Add to that the track record of bad/infrequent support for Warhammer Historical products and you have a game that first and foremost appeals to 20mm gamers who already have everything they need in order to play it and may feel that "finally someone has released a set of rules that target my scale of choice".

Not to mention all the other plastic stuff from Ceaser, Italeri, waterloo1815, Preiser and Zvevda. These in particular are stearing me towards 20mm for KGN.

If you go to shops that sell 28mm why would they have 20mm?

What an odd arguement… Its not popular cos the shops I buy 15mm and 28mm dont have it.

Well by that rationale, the shops I go to, that only sell 20mm, must mean that all other scales are not popular.

People need to realise that their 'world view' is theirs alone and is not indicative of the hobby in general, but is a closed and restricted viewpoint based upon their own bias.

KGN was made to appeal to 20mm gamers… Hence why over on The Guild its likely to be the number 1 system used by players there at the moment… followed by RF2.

Of course they are all 20mm players who game in an unpopular and 'dying' scale…

Guess someone better tell our 1200+ members that. Better tell our Swedish members too…

Want me to carry on and mention the new Hobbyden WW2 vehicle range, or S&S remastering their WW2 stuff? What about the other WW2 ranges in development in 20mm? I know of two more…

Pray tell.

Just because you dont know whats released, doesnt mean a scale is 'dead'. Unless you game in the scale, you will be ignorant of it.

Thing is, 20mm is my scale of choice, and if anything I've been an avid watcher of new releases. As such, I can only say that I've been most disheartened by the frequency and variety of new releases in 15mm and 28mm.

And in case you haven't noticed, 20mm games have been slowly disappearing from the various shows, whereas 15mm ones – whether FOW, IABSM, CD or Battlefront – have all come to the fore in the past decade. I'll even dare wager that most newcomers to the period are increasingly unlikely to choose 20mm.

Actually I have seen plenty of 20mm games at shows.

You didnt see the ones at Salute this year then?

Warsy – Crossing the Arve – June 1940 Demonstration WW2 20mm

Danger in Denmark- Demonstration WW2 1/72nd

Do you go to all the shows on the circuit to make a valid comment, or is it another sweeping statement with no basis in fact?

Guess you dont watch very hard for new releases.

And you ignored the list of new stuff I gave you… Doesnt fit with your doom-and-gloom perception then? You obviously just keep wishing to ignore all the plastic releases and keep trying to convince us that its 'dead' when its alive and vibrant.

Try joining The Guild;

guildwargamers.com

Its almost all 20mm gamers… With alot of the makers on the forum.

See Armourfast have just released a 1/72 German 105mm gun… Oh and PSC have just relased the 76mm Sherman and German Weapons Teams in 1/72…

Oh wait, its a dead scale, guess they know nothing… They must be so unsuccessful as businesses sinking all that money into moulds for a 'dead' scale…

Oh wait…

@Piers,

If you did not know what I was meaning, I meant stores like Maelstrom Games. In Sweden "Kulturkommissariatet". And other stores that sell products from a lot of various manufacturers…

Hey Piers, remember which forum you are on before using things like reason and personal experience in your arguments.

It's apparent that people are extremely over sensitive and touchy when it comes to discussiing their scale of choice so I'll leave it at that.

@RobH
You seem like a person who's very easily riled up and who has a difficult time to give a well put counter argument to support your ideas without going into personal attacks and cursing as demonstrated by your previous entries in this thread. Others that I suppose share your thoughts and preferences have done a much better job at both leaving a better and much more coherent point of view towards the content of my review and in the following discussion regarding scale.

While people here have discussed the good/bad and put forward arguments, points of view, experiences – your posts have added completely nothing.

Anatoli,

Maelstrom Games stocks 20mm stuff.

link

Has done for ages… I buy my Panzer IVs from them.

So what was your point again? :)

People get touchy when people make silly sweeping statements about 'dead' scales without really having any idea.

Im happy to see all scales thrive and have never understood the need to downplay or denigrate other scales, other than the ones I play. Find it a little odd really…

@Piers

Did you check my previous entry? (6th counting from the top of page 2)

"Beside the PSC stuff I've not seen any 20mm WW2 miniatures around on the UK/US/Swedish webstores from which I usually buy my stuff."

Most makers sell through their own stores with 20mm.

I dont know why being part of a discount seller is always a sign of popularity.

Why this accusatory zealousness Piers?

While I do not attend every show, I do regularly check out the lists of games, and this has in the main reinforced my opinion.

or is it another sweeping statement with no basis in fact?

What other "sweeping statement with no basis in fact" have I made?

While I did miss Matt's WIP shots of his upcoming Germans I stand by my view that the momentum for 20mm metal makers has significantly petered out – how long was the gap between the releases of Battlefield's 1940 stuff and their recent late war stuff (which, as you failed to notice, I did mention in my original post)? For years I reasoned that 15mm and 28mm's expansion was due to the fact that they had a lot of catching up to do, but now that Libyans, Filipinos and Chinese are available, this is obviously no longer the case.

Guess you dont watch very hard for new releases.

Now you're the one throwing baseless accusations I'm afraid. Why so angry?

I, for example, have been in touch with Paul of EWM (one of the few companies that are actually breathing life into the scale) and have been closely following the frustratingly slow resurrection of FAA.

And I was fully aware of the newish range of Russian heavy tanks and British paras Shell Hole released, but didn't mention them because that was over half a year ago. The same with Grubby's Japanese and US Marines.

I even know of a company in Spain that is planning to do 20mm range, presumably in collaboration with the sculptor who did the figures for Fantassin, but until I actually see it happen I'm not going to be predicting that we'll enjoy a flood of new stuff any time soon.

And yes, I deliberately ignored the plastic releases because they are certainly not for me; I'm a metal man through and through. And let's not forget that PSC also does stuff in 15mm, so whatever money they pour into developing their products they are far from risking much?

For all my doom and gloom, I do, and will continue to, buy 20mm stuff.

I'm happy to see all scales thrive and have never understood the need to downplay or denigrate other scales, other than the ones I play. Find it a little odd really…

Well I for one would be the first to bemoan the fact that 20mm should be ahead of its brothers. And I don't see how I'm denigrating my preferred scale in any way…

Much as I love 20mms -it is my scale of choice too-, my experience as seller is that the demand is almost inexistent. There is a huge demand of 15s and 28s, but, alas, no 20s. At least in Madrid.

I have a rather large mix of plastic, resin and metal. I cannot think of anything I have wanted that is not available in 20mm, and SHQ are churning out a good amount. Pop along to Bovington (7/8 Jul) to have a look at a few good 20mm firms,
and bring me a Brew at our Franco-Prussian game!!

Tally Ho!

Major Grubert.

I guess for me I see no reason to be negative about anything in this hobby, and I dont like the negativity that seems to cloud a hobby that for me is my one form of escapism in an increasingly annoying world.

I have a young family, a demanding job and stressful economic times… Its important to see our hobby flourish and thrive and I believe all parts of it are.

I have been told many times that this and that are 'dead' scales in the last few decades, yet here we are with new products and new companies abounding.

I just think we should be positive and grateful that we have such a vibrant past time to indulge in.

I hope you join us on The Guild, where you can see how alive and well 20mm is.

Best wishes,

Piers

Although I understand what your saying about the amount of sellers in other scales particularly in 15mm, due no part to FOW I believe, I would say that the variety of models for gaming in 20mm in vast over other scales, Just take a look at the models from milicast and a browse round Mr Models at the shows.

You know, there's a reason there are more new releases in 15mm and 28mm than 20mm.
It's because 20mm already covers everything; new releases are not needed.
You can already get pretty much every single combatant and vehicle of WW2 in 20mm. There are not many new releases because everything is already available, unlike any other scale.
(although 6mm/1:285 is pretty complete these days)

Back on topic, one of the points missed around the price of the rules is that they include full army lists and scenarios.

Most other WW2 rules require you to buy additional supplements to play a period and that bumps the price up closer to KGN.

Also your point about them being restricted to Normandy is a selling point for me, as the rules arent trying to cover non historical match ups.

Cheers
kieran

While 15mm is growing as a WW2 scale (in many parts due to FoW, and I have seen it described as "the most popular scale for WW2", but not anywhere I know of), I think 20mm might be a fairly British thing (not uniquely though). From what I have read elsewhere 20mm has not been as ubiquiteous in other countries. This is probably due to 1/72 (or 1/76) models being hiostorically the most popular military model scale in Britain, and 20mm figures fit pretty much with those models. However, different scales seem to be more popular in different countries. The US market seems to have historically been more in the 1/48 scale models (which 28mm models fit better with).

Now, with this historical British bias towards 1/72 it doesn't seem surprising that Warhammer Historicals (A British company) chose 20mm as the "standard" for their game even though it is entirely compatible with other scales. It is also a choice I would agree with (28mm are just too big for my liking, and smaller is just impratical for single figure basing… and I have lots of 1/72 kits to use for my tanks!).

On the other hand, the initial reviewer doesn't seem to be a British native (the blog suggests Sweden), and so that may explain why he hasn't come across many 20mm gamers. Many rules sets now seem to be aiming at either the 28mm scale for smaller scale battles, or 15mm for bigger scale combats (and of course the growing 10 and then 12mm markets… why not just stay with nice established scales!).

Of course if it was up to me it would be 20mm for up to company scale, and then 6mm for anything bigger… don't see much of the point of these fiddly intermediate scales. 28mm is then the Roleplaying Game scale… All agreed?

KGN, for the good, bad, or indifferent, and at whatever the price was seems to be dead, along with all the rest of the Warhammer Historical line: warhammer-historical.com A pity.

KGN is dead, but I'd keep my eyes open for something similar soon….

Very soon…

Excellent!

For the record: I've played KGN and its not a bad set of rules and comparer very favorably to FOW. My preference is platoon level games like Combat Command and Command Decision but enjoyed KGN nevertheless.

Virtually all our WWII gaming is in 20mm and the market is flooded with new releases (I'm going broke trying to buy them all). They are generally cheaper and of bettr quality than 15mm equivalents. The 15mm "dominance" comes from FOW – if that's your prefence than 15mm (well 18mm) is about your only choice.

For everything else 20mm offers many advantages (not least of which is compitition).

TomT