"Kampfgruppe Normandy review" Topic

My friend Widgren borrowed me his rulebook so that I would write a review about the KGN rules from Warhammer Historical. I should add that he bought this ridicilously expensive book during the Warhammer Historical sale (50% IIRC) last year and only because of that.

Having read the rules and checked the rest of the book content I personally have a hard time of really feeling any enthusiasm over this book.The rules aren't bad, but they are very generic – except for the "battlegroup morale" which I found to be handled in an interesting way. The choice for where to begin playing this game is extremely themed around the Normandy – so if you don't like western front or Normandy you are out of luck. It can be played in other theaters for sure but everything included from army lists to terrain is directly related to Normandy.

Full review on my blog:
link

There are expansions on the way for nearly every time/theatre of the war. So the "generic" and "normandy" feel can be tailored to anything you want soon.

I find it odd you question them setting 20mm figures as their "base". You can pick up 20mm – 1/72nd in any toy shop and it is by far and away the most populat WW2 scale!

I also find it even more bizarre that you managed to review the rules without actually playing them.

Jaz
6sided.net – Thinking Of Blogging? Start here!

Did you actually play a game?

I ask because unless you play it, how can one really know how the game 'feels' or plays?

Well the name 'Kampfgruppe Normandy' does kinda point to it being themed for Normandy… I suspect that most WW2 gamers have collections aimed at this period. Im not sure how the army lists cannot be used for encounters in Lorraine in 1944, or even Italy in 1944. The same equipement is in use, and apart from one rule on bocage hedges, the terrain rules are generic for anywhere.

Interesting review, cant say I agree with your viewpoint but interesting nonetheless, obviously not your cup of tea.

For me, KGN has utterly rejevenated my WW2 gaming, and I have played KGN every week since its release, apart from three occasions. I love the system and I think it does an excellent job of melding gameplay, with a 'feel' for WW2 tactics and some very innovative mechanisms such as the artillery rules, suppression rules and the morale counter pot (which is indeed a mechanism from an even older set I believe).

I bought it at the £48.00 GBP full price and felt happy with that for what I got. Given I have played over 50 games, its cost a little under £1.00 GBP for each evenings entertainment – Well worth it in my view.

If I could only ever play one game for the rest of my life, it would be KGN. I am utterly biased though as I think its great!

Those who wish to see my reviews from last year can join here;

guildwargamers.com

…where we have a room dedicated to the discussion of KGN, or see it here if you dont want to join The Guild;

link

What a pointless and ill informed review.

Shouldn't this be on the Flames of War Board? ;)

Pat

Can always tell the lover's and heaters of rules. Everyone has their own preferences. I don't like DBA for example while lots like them. I don't think it worth attacking someones opinion. Just say why you disagree and give you reasons. No need to sound like a fanboy.

Whats a rule heater?

I knew the review would pretty much rally everyone who likes these rules against it. But this is simply what I think and based on comparisons with other rules that I'm familiar with. Never stated that my reviews are the "absolute truth" and should be followed blindly. I also didn't go into this review with a negative attitude, it's simply what I thought about what I read.

@6sided dice,
Well, things are turning around VERY slowly at Warhammer Historical so I would not hold my breath. Besides imo the better idea would have been to release the rules on their own , and campaign books separately.

As for 20mm I said in my review that I don't know anyone who plays this scale where I live so right there it would be very unfamiliar for the local gamers. Not saying there is anything wrong with 20mm and don't care if you play 15-20-28mm as it is your choice.

@Piers
Nope, since I don't have any models to use with this game (wrong scale, wrong period, wrong front). It is not hard to imagine how the rules work after having played numerous other rulesets that are basically based on the same ideas.

I can't say that I see any real reason why people would pick this set of rules over any other based upon the rules themselves. While the battlegroup morale is a fun idea I also think that some people will be turned off by the random amount of command points you get to distribute every turn. The rest of the rules are very traditional and have most likely been encountered by veteran gamers before.

I may have been a lot more positive if the part of this book which contains the rules alone was released on its own – and was a lot less Normandy themed. The price would be a lot lower and the rules would become a lot more accessible for (newbies) and those who want to see if the rules are any fun but don't want to fork over almost £50.00 GBP just to satisfy their curiosity. And imo these rules, judged on the rules alone disregarding the other stuff included in the book, are not worth £48.00 GBP

@RobH
What a pointless comment.

> Whats a rule heater?

It appears this thread will turn into an example of one…

So you review rules by 'imagining' how they work?

Oh ok… Fair enough.

In my own humble view, I wouldnt review any rules without playing them as you dont see how things interplay, get a sense of the 'feel' of a system or the player interaction and tactical nuances.

I also dont see what the price has to do with the mechanics. You would have been more positive if it was cheaper?

Well, yer, I would have been more positive about my car if it had cost half the price too… But it still performs the same.

Thanks for replying, I disagree with your review as I dont see how you can give such a review without having played the system, but thats only my personal viewpoint.

Cheers,

Piers

@DYNAMAN

I think you may be right their mate…

I am neither a KGN Heater or Loevre. Several of my friends bought these half price for the eye-candy alone, I know nobody who has played them.

I think the OP is at liberty to say anything he likes in a review, up to the point he goes on to describe how he reckons they play, not having played them.

At that point it gets a bit silly.

Pat

@Moomin Cage Fighter,
About the comparison, it was simply bad wording. It was intended to be compared to what other rules include and the way they are written – not meant as compared to how other games play. Thanks for pointing it out, I'll change it to avoid future confusion.

EDIT: Changed the paragraphs I think you had in mind to

"I could compare these rules with others rules that I have read and am familiar with. Kampfgruppe Normandy is a lot less complex rulewise than Flames of War (which on the other hand is bogged down with a lot of whacky rules) to mention a game played on roughly the same level. The text in KGN in the rules section is a lot more streamlined and I would say a lot more user friendly with the heavy emphasis on categorization of weapons and vehicle type."

…….

I read the rulebook and compared with other rules that I'm familiar with. And really what the review comes down to is – "are the rules anything new or special?". And I can't say that based upon what I'm familiar with, that beside the morale system, I can't see anything that would warrant a change from one set of rules to KGN. In fact, the KGN morale system would be great to use as a houserule with any other WW2 set of rules you would be using instead.

The rules are so traditional in terms of mechanics and ideas that it is rather easy to imagine how it works and be able to compare to other rules. Would it have been better if I actually played a game of these rules for the review? Yes of course, but then I'm not exactly commenting on the flow of the game in my review which is more based upon what ideas the KGN rules have come up with and offer to gamers.

The price is relevant if you think about who the audience might be. And it was debated a lot around the time of release on many forums to be beyond expensive for a set of rules. This book was borrowed to me by a friend so it's not like I lost money or anything and the reason why I talked about the price.

I knew this would be a source of annoyance for many people, and you can't please everyone all the time. Peoples preferences differ, what they perceive as great and fresh ideas might be experiences as traditional "have seen that a lot before" by others. I also didn't write anywhere that the rules were bad. My main impression with what I read was that that beside the morale system nothing that was written in the rules stood out as new or different.

You can pick up 20mm – 1/72nd in any toy shop and it is by far and away the most populat WW2 scale!

Popular among whom? Modelers? Wargamers?

As I put on your blog, I think yours is a GOOD review. To the point, explicative about a whole range of points. Maybe not shared point of view by other gamers, but to each one his/her own. I think you made a good work and it definitely can help other people. Thumbs up!

For me, WWII is 15 mm FoW or some 28 mm skirmish (Rate of Fire) but I know people who plays it in 20 mm. I know, too, that they won't use KGN, for they'll look at its price with disbelief. Not saying it's bad or that anybody won't like it or think it is too expensive. But for me, the new FoW looks like a better deal…

Well all the people I know who play WW2 use 20mm, so therefore its the most popular…..

…on my club and The Guild forum.

Please, I don't want to sound like a "fanboy" (yes I do own the rules and I do enjoy playing them), BUT, I think the comments above about actually playing the game are very pertinent.
Any of us could browse a set of rules and see things we've seen before in one form or another- "…nothing new under the sun.." and all that, but it is how it all works together in an actual game that will surely indicate the merit or otherwise of the rules.

Oh look this is a bottle of red wine, looks like other bottles of red wine. I have tasted some others and am familiar with red wine so I can review this one without bothering to open or try it.

Let me expand my last comment then, pointless, ill informed and worthless.

Want to inform people how a set of rules work….PLAY THE ING THINGS!!!

Anatoli,

The thing is, some of the rules are not traditional, such as suppression and the artillery mechanisms. I have gamed WW2 for 20 years with many sets and not seen similar stuff.

Perhaps you are just seeing the traditional to hit and saving throw mechanisms and taking it that the rest are the same? To me some of the rules are not at all traditional, but again that really depends on your own viewpoint I guess.

Without playing it, you dont see how the rules interplay and how the game feels. That seems a little unfair on a game, and I hate to say it, but Robs 'wine analogy', which is extreme (and funny) does make the point rather well. But it does seem a little harsh to say a game is traditional and generic, while not having played it to experience the mechanisms in play.

I know when I got the rules, they didnt play how I expected too when first reading them.

Hey its your review, so feel free to write whatever you want, and you are good enough to answer your critics politely and constructively so you have no arguement from me.

Cheers,

Piers

Review aside, Forgeworld were selling these for £15.00 GBP at Salute. Considering I've since seen them for double or treble that I'm kicking myself that I didn't pick up a copy, or ten copies to stick on Ebay/Amazon.

G.

Why are you taking him to task for this?

It's one thing if he posts his comments without disclosing that he hasn't played the game. But he did disclose that.

If you feel that reviews made by someone who hasn't played are not worthwhile, you can safely ignore it. Others may not feel that way.

I also dont see what the price has to do with the mechanics. You would have been more positive if it was cheaper?

Well, yer, I would have been more positive about my car if it had cost half the price too… But it still performs the same.

Price has nothing to do with the mechanics. But it's a legitimate point to raise in a review.

I like rules and am willing to pay a certain amount to satisfy my curiosity even if I don't end up playing.

KGN intrigued me, but not for 50.00 GBP. It is the most expensive rule book that I have ever heard of. For that price it had better be something very special.

It looked like a perfectly reasonable review to me, we don't get paid to do this stuff, it is a hobby not a job.

Perhaps you can't 'properly' review a set of rules if you don't play them, but if a set of rule is sufficiently off putting that you can't face attempting to play them, that says a lot in itself.

…and isnt that the point Bede?

How can a review give you an idea to you that its 'special' if it doesnt cover a review of the actual gameplay to inform you of such. I think thats the point people were making.

I dont think I have taken him to task, merely offered an opposite view, and Anatoli seems to have taken that at face value. I just gave a different view from my perspective of having played the game for a year.

All reviews are subjective, Anatoli is no less correct than my views.

I have played them a number of times, they give a good game with a set of easy to understand rules and enough detail to have a flowing game. ( I still think that tracked vehicles should test for throwing a track when doing a tight turn from road to soft ground at full tilt!) I am tempted to use some of the anti tanks rules found in Panzermarsch – where a non penetrating hit can still cause damage – destroy optics, jam turret etc.

I did find it interesting that an avid FOW gamer could not understand why his handful of tanks could not just speed over a "fordable" river. – Sorry old boy Troop halts in cover, Troop leader or Sgt strolls over to check for an entry/exit point then when confirmed 2 cars cross covered by the remaining 2. When they are over and established in a defencive position the 2nd pair cross. This is the level of detail I like, KGN gives it.

20mm remains very popular with many people and probably gives more choice than 15mm, although the latter is fairly close. I have also played in 6mm which worked as well as in 20mm. It did not take the brains of an Archbishop to sort out the rules to play at other scales.

Tally Ho!

This thread today inspired me to write a post about game reviews at my blog!

link

"Oh look this is a bottle of red wine, looks like other bottles of red wine. I have tasted some others and am familiar with red wine so I can review this one without bothering to open or try it."

Actually, that works quite well. Some people love pinot noir and dislike cabernet sauvignon. They don't need to try cabernet sauvignon from every vineyard from every year to say "hey, I don't like carbernet sauvignon."

This idea that you have to play a game to know whether or not you'll like it, when you already have experience playing a game with similar/same mechanics that you didn't like, is nonsense. It's how we shop for rules. "What are the mechanics? Oh, I like those in other games I've played, I'll check them out."

As I was indirectly called lazy for not actually playtesting this set of rules I can just say that as the book was borrowed to me for a short period by my friend who did not have the energy to read it himself or any real interestin in playing it (he bought it for the pretty pictures and the sale)then I'm not going to make paper counters to test play it by myself. I would make paper countes and proxy units if I thought that the rules offered something unfamiliar – I did test play By Fire & Sword with FoW bases and paper printouts but then again that rule system offered something completely new that I felt needed to be tested (I had not bought models yet at the time when I wrote that review).

I did not get that impression by Kampfgruppe Normandy.
And as already written a couple of times, and in my review, I did not find the rules to be bad – there is just very little new stuff in the written game mechanics for me to get interested.

Anatoli,

I would suggest trying to play the game with your 15mm stuff. In our group we have only played with 15mm since I bought the book (at full price, and it was worth every penny!) because I have only recently started replacing all my 28s with 20s and the stuff isn't painted yet. The rules play exactly the same in either scale.

As far as your comments, they don't bother me at all. Nobody is going to like all the things I do and I would never expect them to. I would love to see an additional review from you after you gave the system a try, though.

@Nazrat,
How did you guys solve the multibased issue when using FoW infantry?

Anatoli,

Just use a dice or counters to record casualties per stand. Have two stands make up a single section.

Seen alot of 15mm guys play it that way.

I'm still intrigued by KGN. And with all the plastic kit being released by PSC in 20mm it would be a nice excuse to start something new.

Still can't bring myself to pay nearly $100 USD for a set of rules. I'll have to wait and hope that WHH has that 50% off sale again some time.

This thread today inspired me to write a post about game reviews at my blog!

Here is my review of FOG Napoleonic.
TMP link

I think it was helpful to people (a number said so) even though I have not played the game.

You're point is overstated.

Bede,

Try Ebay – I saw some copies on there for alot less.

Anatoli, we didn't. I have bunches of individually based 15mm soldiers. But as Piers said, just use a casualty marker of some sort.

You could and should play the game a few times. I think 4 would be enough to play most games mistake free. You can find paper miniature at the Junior General site. Just rough cut them out and have at it. They are even 20mm!

So the review of "Drinking Bleach" I gave my kids is suspect because I have never actually drank bleach? (I gave it a highly negative review, in case that makes a difference.)

If you have played many different games systems you get a feel for how they will likely play out. I can basically play test a set of rules in my head. I would say it is actually only a poorly written set of rules that would actually require you to test it out several times before understanding how the mechanics work. Or it is so innovative that it is outside your comfort zone.

Yer…

I've driven one car so I dont do test drives anymore. I just imagine driving it in my head.

"So the review of "Drinking Bleach" I gave my kids is suspect because I have never actually drank bleach? (I gave it a highly negative review, in case that makes a difference.)"

Yes, I can see how you could equate talking about something that will kill you with a set of wargaming rules. Sheesh. I fear for the critical abilities of your poor children.

Warhammer Historicals offered KGN at 40% and it was worth every penny. As Naz stated we have been playing using his individual 15mm figures but I plan to run it with my 28mm figure as well. KGN may have become my favorite WW II rule system and it works for all the reason that Piers mentions.

I bought KGN a couple of months ago and plan to adapt it for 28mm gaming with little or no changes at the platoon level. Though I haven't played it yet, I like what I've read so far. The rules are well written and clear, and the mechanics appear to make for fast-flowing, interesting games. The army lists are well organized and presented. Plus I like the fact that it is well illustrated.

Its limitations to Normandy doesn't bother me at all because of its title. I know its limited scope before I even bought it.

Sorry Anatoli, but another dissenting opinion here.

> Yes, I can see how you could equate talking about something that will kill you with a set of wargaming rules.

Try reading the rules to "SS Panzer, Bloodbath at Kursk" and you may change your mind…

I do have preferences for WWII – find Arc of Fire handles everything smoothly -more infantry oriented. The battle reports from KGN (from Piers) look intriguing though and would enjoy playing a few games. How well, or poorly, do they work with the SkirmishCampaigns books? Or are the 'Rapid Fire' books the scale of this game?

I've played it for France 1940. It took me a bit of research to adapt the army lists to the earlier period. Not that I am complaining. It did add to the enjoyment, actually.

It can be used for other scales. In truth, besides using it with my 20mm stuff, I have been using it with my 15mm collection too. As I have not a big table, the game looked more 'correct' with the smaller miniatures, if you know what I mean.

What I like about KGN is that it is fast and 'feels' right. I am more focused in gaming and using clever strategies than in trying to exploit loops in the rules. For the moment, it is my WWII ruleset of choice. I know FoW it's more popular around here, but as I game with my friends and kids and not in tournaments I do not need to bother about what it is more popular or unpopular in my area.

I'm glad to see some like the rules.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to try them.

At $80 USD, plus international shipping, they are welll beyond my price pain threshold, even with all the pretty pictures.

I'm on board here to agree completely with Anatoli. I bought the rules based on the sale and a review by someone who really liked them. I read them, and other than the morale rules (which I have seen in several board games) I didn't see anything really new. Artillery a bit different, but the basic infantry and armor rules were very traditional. In fact I came to the end of the rules and thought, "That's it? Nothing more to it?" Well, there was 300 pages of eye candy and very focused army lists, along with some decent scenarios. I do plan to try them out with my 15mm stuff at some point, but it looks like a standard game with a couple of new ideas I'd like to try rather than something I can't wait to dive into.

Troop halts in cover, Troop leader or Sgt strolls over to check for an entry/exit point then when confirmed 2 cars cross covered by the remaining 2. When they are over and established in a defencive position the 2nd pair cross. This is the level of detail I like, KGN gives it.

but the basic infantry and armor rules were very traditional. In fact I came to the end of the rules and thought, "That's it? Nothing more to it?"

There seems to be two takes on KGN – Nick, who knows what he is talking about, seems to think these rules give him the low level tactical granularity he wants, whereas a couple of others see nothing really new here…Unfortunately at 100 Dollars I'm not going to take the plunge!

For those thinking of adapting these for 28mm, all power to your arm, but do be aware that Rick Priestly will soon be bringing out the Bolt Action platoon level rules specifically designed for 28mm games…

I personally find the fact that Anatoli doesn't use 20mm, nor personally know anyone who dabbles in that scale, very revealing.

At a gut level I felt like taking the reviewer to task for his views on 20mm, but then calmed down and began to look at things objectively…

His introduction makes clear how things have moved on from the 1990s of Colin Rumford et al; it shows how much FOW has displaced 20mm as the scale of choice for many WWII gamers, despite the fact that 15mm has very few offerings compared to the former. Moreover, it also shows that KGN has failed in halting the 15mm juggernaut. When one considers the rising popularity of 28mm (particularly plastics), I think the obvious is pretty clear: 20mm, as fantastic as it is, is a dying "niche" scale – just look at the amount of releases that's been churned out.

Ive been told 20mm is dying for the last 20 years. Funny, its still around, and as long as plastic kits are, it still will be.

Guess all the new 1/72 stuff from PSC is just my imagination… Not too mention the releases from all the other companies…

But hey, you believe what ye like. I think you will find all three scales will be around for a while.

Im not sure KGN was trying to halt any juggernauts, more a set of rules aimed at 20mm gamers, written by a 20mm gamer.

Yep got agree with Piers 20mm is dying? Nah, I do not think so. In fact I would say that 20mm is growing in particular that not only are their great metal figures out there but the plastics are fantastic as well. And I say this as a die hard 28mm WW II wargamer. Add to this that 20mm which matches with 1/72 scale models and is also the scale for HO Gauge Trains makes it easy to acquire terrain for this size. Just visit The Guild to see the fantastic gaming tables Piers and the lads put on. Oh and there are not any gaps in terms of vehicles for the period in 20mm. Vehicles are available in both plastic model kits and resin. For what you would pay for a 1/56 scale tank in resin you can get about three in 1/72 in resin for the same price and the detail is top notch.

Besides I do not think the objective of KGN is to displace 15mm or any other size/scale.

I bought KGN in the sale and I've not regretted it. Yes a lot of the rules have been used elsewhere but not in this mix (think of it like a new recipe, some will like it some won't but you won't really know just by looking at it…). I found the rules easy to learn and gave a good entertaining game.

Oh, and I use 28mm figures and have also adapted them for early war and VBCW…

Mick