"Dropship Horizon reviews Antenociti's Workshop 15mm Vehicles" Topic

All,

Jed at Antenociti's Workshop was kind enough to send a couple review samples of the 15mm Governance of Technology range. And, as an added bonus, we get to share the upcoming Hunchback APC:

And Zebu Land Cruiser:

Link to complete article: link

-Chris K.

Those look strangely similar, but I've had a few beers so I'll look again in the morning.

I like some of their 28mm stuff a lot.

I think your secon pic is wrong.

Something looks off, I think they are to skinny.

It's supposed to hold 8-12 men? Doesn't look big enough.

They look remarkably similar :o

I need to check out the Dropship more often. That Zebu looks like it could easily be kitbashed into a post-apoc road war vehicle.

They look similar because they are the same image :)

Think Chris goofed in posting.

-Eli

Yep, too much quick copying and pasting while running out to date night with the missus. :) Now that you've all had your laughs…

-Chris K.

PS: Armies Army Neo Sov figures depicted in the pics – great match for the GOT vehicles!

This stuff is awesome. I'm a big fan of Anetenociti's Governance of Technology range in 28mm, and I'm definitely excited to see more and more of it in 15mm.

I love the designs, but they do seem a tad undersize. I own the AA figures, and they're not super large 15's either.

I know, I know – APCs are actually smaller than we think etc etc. Just giving my thoughts.

I know, I know – APCs are actually smaller than we think etc etc. Just giving my thoughts.

To put this into perspective… A 1/100-scale M-113 APC would be 4.9cm long, 2.7cm wide, and 2.5cm tall. This vehicle operated with a crew of 2 and regularly carried 11 troops into battle.

Here's some measurements of the Antenociti's Workshop vehicles. We'll skip the Skorpion unless someone can give me a convincing modern analog. :)

The Hunchback – 7.5cm long, 3.5cm wide, 3cm tall. A 1/100 BMP-1 (crew of 3, 8 passengers) would be 6.7cm long, 2.9cm wide, and 2cm tall.

The Karbardin – 8cm long, 2.7cm wide, 2.5cm tall. By comparison, a 1/100 LAV-25 (crew 3, 7 passengers) would be 7cm long, 2.7cm wide, and 2.8cm tall.

The Zebu – 1.5cm across the crew compartment. By comparison, an original Willys Jeep at 1/100 would be 1.57cm wide.

So the Zebu, while a beautiful model, really is a bit on the small side. But the Hunchback and Karbardin seem perfectly scaled to carry most 18mm-tall infantry.

-Chris K.

I won't disagree with that at all, my hesitation is purely from my own prejudice!

clkeagle:

I don't know the LAV-25 but I have been around and inside a BMP-1 and I tell you it's HORRIBLY CRAMPED,

I know for sure they usually carried less than the 'official' complement of troops to allow more breathing space for them!

I truly like the design of the Kabardin and from what I see here the new vehicles are at least on par with it, but, call me whatever you like, I'd like them to be 15% bigger.

They would look odd close to Matchbox ARVs and converted Dinky Stalwarts on my gaming table.

Thanks for using my figures :) They do match well!

I was looking into creating apc's for them, however with such a huge market out there I decided that Id concentrate elsewhere and in the end, bought 6 of the Anetenociti Kabadins as transports. Very nice they are to and the best of the bunch in my opinion. I may well of gone for the hunchback if they were available!

Here's pics of the Kabardin with my Matchbox ARVs and converted Dinky Stalwarts. link

Looks absolutely perfect scale wize. I think the zebu will be way too small for my 15/18mm force.

Binaries:

Your wonderful pictures are exactly what prompted me to scour Ebay for ARVs and, especially, Dinky Stalwarts (owning 5 now with a 6th on the way).

While I'll be the first to declare that your superior paintjobs do much to tie well the Antenociti vehicle to the other models I still wish it was a 15% larger but, as I said in a previous thread, that's entirely my opinion.

Lenght and Width are 'almost' OK…if only it had a meatier turret or a couple extra millimeters in height…that's what I feel about it.

It also seems I am not alone with my ideas, juding from comments like those from McWong here and the one from Dan of the 'Gunners Wargaming' blog on the original 'Dropship' webpage.

What we'd like to convey here is that it exists a fraction of potential buyers who could consider the purchase of a slightly size-increased model more favourably.

Just that.

We don't want to provoke you, insult you or call your ideas about the relative size of hypothetic future armoured combat vehicles 'wrong'.

A few turret options, including a meatier turret as Moqawama suggests, sold as a seperate pack would be very welcome.

At the moment I'm doubting that I'll get either the hunchback or zebu, but only as I doubt they'll fit with my existing forces. I may change my mind if we can see pics of all the models side by side.

@Moqawama
I'm still working on Stalwart No2 at the moment. I have most of the conversion work done but I'm looking for a missile system or fire support option. I'd love to see what you've done with yours. Got any pics?

I am waiting for the last one to arrive from England (thank God for those grownup Brits getting tired of their old toys!) for 'the platoon' to be complete, then I'll start to work on them.

Having 6 of them in total I was thinking of haing 1 Command, 1 Radar, 2 Troop Transports, 1 Anti-Tank and 1 Anti-Air versions.

But I still have to choose a cool enough camo scheme…ah, decisions!

Any word on when the Zebu will be available?

@infojunky – hopefully at Salute this weekend, last I spoke with Jed.

@Eclipsing Binaries and Moqawama – If it's not too much trouble to mix and match from other manufacturers, I think Antenociti's vehicles would look great with GZG or Old Crow turrets. Old Crow's are definitely "meatier" than the included weapon systems.

-Chris K.

Follow up – here are some comparison pics with the Hunchback and Karbardin APCs against pretty much everything in my collection. link

They scale well against everything I have. They certainly aren't meant to be a mobile command and sustainment facility like a Khurasan Caiman, but both vehicles are more than capable of carrying a squad of 8-10 15mm infantry.

-Chris K.

Chris, thanks for those pics. All those models are fantastic and look the biz and come from manufacturers who are all great guys who have made 15mm sf gaming such a joy for many of us. I just find all of them a wee bit small!

The Caiman's MASSIVE, a better example of the sort of "size" I like are the GZG apcs.

Thanks Chris, that pic of the hunchback really shows it in a different light – it's a lot bigger than it looks in the other pics.

Too small. That sucks, I was really looking forward to both of those models.

They certainly aren't meant to be a mobile command and sustainment facility like a Khurasan Caiman

I would never tell a guy how to use my models, other than not to eat them, feed them to children, recast them or use them as murder weapons (not necessarily in that order ).

That said, the Caiman is meant to be an APC. I didn't really have those other tasks in mind when commissioning or manufacturing the vehicle.

Yes, but when it (purely coincidentally ) looks so much like a vehicle that is part TOC, part living quarters, and part APC, people are going to make the comparison, Khurasan.

Well, what was that vehicle called, after all? The TOC? The Dorm?

Quite possible that in the future, expectations of what an APC will be will change. This Caiman is meant to carry up to 13 troopers into battle (not including the driver and unit officer). At the same time it has a very heavy main armament.

Of course, anyone is free to interpret it any way they fancy, but just to reiterate, the vehicle was meant to be an APC.

Quite possible that in the future, expectations of what an APC will be will change.

And I have no problem with that explanation. Troop carriers with that much firepower are interesting… in future settings, I've wondered if a single vehicle couldn't fulfill the role of both MBT and troop transport.

I mainly called it a mobile command center due to the role that a remarkably similar vehicle fulfilled in a certain popular movie. If that's what we call "APCs" in the future, it will be a drastic change from contemporary definitions. :)

But to many near-future gamers – imagine putting three adults in the back seat of most compact cars. That's all the space most troops have in modern APCs (including proposed concepts for the next decade). So if future APCs follow that philosophy, vehicles like the Antenociti's Workshop range are a very appropriate size. Vehicles as large as the Caiman, using modern APC design philosophy, could carry a platoon (think along the lines of an AAV-7).

-Chris K.

PS: Jon, I'm not supposed to eat your minis? The Ogre Beetle was quite tasty with homemade salsa…

Well, to be fair, the inspiration for the Caiman used roller-coaster seating rules (good idea for a dropship, actually), which is a bit roomier than "standard military comfort" (new winner for laughter-inducing oxymoron).

clkeagle, a Bradley would stand up pretty well against any WW2 tank before it opened up with the TOW missiles. After it blew a Maus apart through the glacis I don't think the Germans would believe claims that infantry rode inside until they debussed on the objective!

Let's see here, a 25-passenger AAV7 is 7.94m long, 3.27m wide, and 3.26m tall. 80mm x 33mm x 33mm, in 1/100 scale.

Scale means nothing. It's about look and feel. When you stand next to a modern APC or IFV it looks and feels massive. There is nothing that looks or feels massive about those models.

And I would say the fact that people are debating whether the models are big enough shows that they're not big enough.

If that's what we call "APCs" in the future,

Remember what they call it in the movie you are referring to.

it will be a drastic change from contemporary definitions. :)

Not at all, even today vehicles such as the Stryker perform just such a function, and the interaction between command and the trooper on the ground will just continue to expand, probably even in the coming decade.

I've just got back from Salute, and I've got to say that these vehicles look bigger in person, and the detail is exceptional.

Troop carriers with that much firepower are interesting… in future settings, I've wondered if a single vehicle couldn't fulfill the role of both MBT and troop transport.

Given the likely bottleneck of interstellar hull-capacity (see Frezza's A Small Colonial War for example), I always though the same. So I envision more vehicles such as the Ukrainian BTMP-84 seen here:

link

That in turn inspired this SF beast from Brigade Models (albeit 6mm at the moment):

Even the Merkava can be considered the forerunner of this concept (though it is not a "troop-carrying tank" in-and-of-itself). The BMP-3 might qualify, though.

This is what the Zebu looks like next to one of Antenocitis own GOT figures (photo from dwartist's excellent blog)

Relative sizes of APCs in a hypothetical future aside, compare the 28mm Zebu with the 15mm model previewed by Chris above and there's simply no comparison IMO.

And for me, the Hunchback as it is, is more suitable as a 2 man scout car.

Cheers
Mark

Scale means nothing. It's about look and feel. When you stand next to a modern APC or IFV it looks and feels massive. There is nothing that looks or feels massive about those models.

Funny, I've always been struck by how *small* M113s and Bradleys are. I can just about look over the back of an M113, after all, and I'm only 6 feet tall.

What was that line from Dave Drake? something like "tanks have a power all out of proportion with their physical size."

Well Lion I don't think the Hunchback was supposed to be modeled after the M113, which is like the go cart of APCs. I couldn't look over the top of a Stryker and I'm also 6ft, 6'4" with the afro

And I believe Drake was talking about the psychological impact that "tanks" have. They project intimidation. Their size and power can defeat an enemy without firing a shot.

We can discuss scale till we're blue in the face but really its about how a model looks next to a figure. It's the same reason I prefer 1/48 over 1/56 for my WWII 25mm guys. As DH points out when you look at the 28mm versions of those models then the 15mm versions there's no comparison. I think that's were my disappointment comes from. The 28mm versions look big and intimidating the 15mm versions don't.

I had planned on picking up a bunch of both the Hunchback and Zebu when they came out mostly based on how the 28mm versions looked. I will not be making a purchase now.

Sorry for ranting, I'm done.

Given that there exists a sizeable quota of gamers here which would prefer slightly larger vehicles I wonder if it would be much of a problem for an operation the size of Antenociti models to release their products in, say, 15mm and 18mm size to cater to both groups.

I couldn't look over the top of a Stryker and I'm also 6ft, 6'4" with the afro

You would need to be 7'2" to see over a Hunchback.

It's supposed to hold 8-12 men? Doesn't look big enough.

It can hold more than you would think:

link

I wonder if it would be much of a problem for an operation the size of Antenociti models to release their products in, say, 15mm and 18mm size to cater to both groups.

Well the "size of Antenocitis" is 2 full-time employees: Jed & Nadine. I do part-time work, a few hours a week, and that is the entire team. (Amanda & I help at shows, Tim also, but he has his own models to sell)

In this case though the culprit is a poorly arranged set of photos in the review. As Jed's article points out (linked above) the only proper way to do comparison photos is to take the photos with the figures at the same level, and to show a gauge for the figures.

Otherwise people get all sorts of funny and incorrect impressions of size.

At the same point your comment hits on the crux of the problem for all manufacturers: do you make properly scaled models or do you make something far, far too big, just so that it can cover a range of differently sized figures.

As the photos and article show very clearly we went with "properly sized", if others do it differently, or if figures are substantially larger than 15mm and/or have thick bases.

Antenocitis responds
link

EDIT: Man, talk about being ninja'd

Height:

Hunchback: 2.2 meters Stryker: 2.72 meters

Width

Hunchback: 3.5 meters Stryker 2.72 meters

Length:

Hunchback: 7.3 meters Stryker: 6.96 meters

--------------------

as per the article we do not know whose figures those in the images are, so they are used without permission. Any issues with their use please let us know and we will remove/add notice as required. :-)

Dee

And for me, the Hunchback as it is, is more suitable as a 2 man scout car.

Any vehicle outside of a ruleset definition can really be used as whatever one likes, its a big advantage of rules-free stuff after all. :-)

Having said that the Hunchback would be truly massive for a 2-man vehicle, did you mean the Zebu?

/Dee

For those asking by email etc: Jed will be adding the new models over the next couple of days.

The stocks will be low to start with though as so many were sold at SALUTE and there's a lot of casting work to do to catch up on decent stock levels.

/edit sorry!

HUnchback will be £6.50 GBPp so the same as the Kabardin.
The Zebu's are £4.00 GBP each, or 2 for £7.00 GBPp.

I expect that Jed will also add the usual staged discounts so that the more you buy the cheaper they get.

/Dee

I don't NEED any of your stuff. But I WANT it…

Antenocitis, you just sold me on a Hunchback and probably a Zebu! Those were fantastic comparison picks, exactly what we need to see when deciding to part with some cash or not.

As the photos and article show very clearly we went with "properly sized", if others do it differently, or if figures are substantially larger than 15mm and/or have thick bases.

Should have said: i>As the photos and article show very clearly we went with "properly sized" for 15mm figures, if others do it differently, or if figures are substantially larger than 15mm and/or have thick bases then that will often produce different relative sizes. This is not a bad thing, and is not a criticism, it is simply alternative perspective or covering more than one figure size.

/Dee

As someone who used both Zebu's and Hunchback's in our Salute demo game,my thoughts:
Zebu more VBL than Oskosh MRAP, so you won't fit your power armour infantry in but as a scout car /liason it works perfectly. Height may not prove as useful in any non asimetric warfare of the future?
Hunchback it looks big compared to ,Old Crow's Trojan and Combat Wombat's Pitbull. I use them with GZG UNMC Light Infantry.

Could some of the issue be that lots of people are still using out of date NATO,Warpact,Nam, Gulf War toe's for Sci Fi?

Guy T.

Interesting that you should pick that particular photo (thanks for the kind remark about the blog) as the trooper is meant to be gene-engineered and as a consequence extremely tall (head and shoulders over the new neo-soviets for instance). I usually photograph any vehicle I paint against a number of figures to demonstrate the vehicles versatility and as you can see from the following examples this affects the perception of the vehicles volume and mass.

I don't have many 15mm figures but the ones I have from several companies are very different in height and build, some short and squat others tall and slender. The figures above are either variously advertised as 25, 28, 30 and 32mm hence the difference in size (of course we humans differ that much in real life too) but 15mm are all supposed to be the same scale so I imagine some would be fine with the 15mm Antenociti vehicles but others would not but knowing the effort that Jed puts into planning the scale of the vehicles then his 15mm vehicles would be very accurate in terms of scale.
I did suggest to him that making his own 15mm figures to accompany his range might be the solution but he 'sent me packing'!

"Hunchback it looks big compared to ,Old Crow's Trojan and
Combat Wombat's Pitbull"

I guess it also looks bigger of a lot of other microscopic things.

In this case though the culprit is a poorly arranged set of photos in the review.

So thanks for your help, reviewer! How are things down there under the bus?

Actually I rarely look at my vehicles and figurines dead-on horizontal, I usually see them just as shown in the "poorly arranged" review photos, at something of an angle as I'm looking at the table, assessing how to get the soldiers out of the mess I've got them into. At those angles the vehicles do appear to be too small.

I've noticed that the CAD images that show humans inside vehicles are usually deceptive, as they a) don't have any of the interior machinery depicted which takes up much of the inside of the vehicle, and b) invariably show the human figures much too slender, as 15mm gaming models are invariably sturdier.

Whilst I understand all the arguments being made about it being technically bigger than so-and-so, as these are not real vehicles, and as miniature wargaming is an aesthetic experience, what's really key to acceptability of vehicle models is look and feel, as has been stated in this thread before.

Note a common complaint about sci fi vehicles is that they look too small. I've never read a complaint about them looking too big, so when providing products for customers, that's something to keep in mind.

Having said that the Hunchback would be truly massive for a 2-man vehicle, did you mean the Zebu?

I quite agree with DH actually, because in any vehicle, there is a compartment for machinery and a compartment for passengers. My eye says to me, after all the machinery and electronics, and some space for fuel and ammunition, there's about room left for two operators, and possibly two passengers crammed in.

I don't think people are complaining about the designs, they seem to like them. I don't like the "euro-future" look personally but it's all a matter of taste of course. One thing the euro-future look does is introduce sudden sharp angles in places where there might not be angles on real vehicles, I guess that's what's "futuristic" about it. Along with this comes a perceived deficit of space in the vehicle. I think that's part of the problem, the shapes just don't look like they can hold enough. The cinched waist on the Humpback is an example.

The models look splendid. I almost boufgt some at Salute but was too busy running a game (though I did buy DullCote from Antenociti, I just didn't have time to pick which vehicles to use for my next force: but I will. They are stunning pieces)

John T

I think some of you guys need to see some Flames of War models in person. I think I could fit any WW2 APC inside my sci-fi APCs.

Shoot, I can fit a Battlefront WW2 jeep inside a Battlefront Huey (can in real life, too). People then complain that the helicopter is 'too big'.