"Best, Simplified Torpedo Rules for WWII?" Topic

There have been a number of rules releases recently, along with suggested "house rules", or unofficial amendments to existing rules, for torpedo attacks.

Of these, and/or any old ones that you think are good, which rules are best, for simplified attacks on ships, using the following criterion:

1. no plotting the movement of torpedoes "through the water", e.g. with counters, chits, or other things on the tabletop (keeping track of the turn of impact, due to the torpedo's speed, range from the target, and relative bearing is fine, if that is included as well, but isn't required);
2. provide for a single roll to determine if a hit, or hits occur (rolling for the salvo, or each torpedo is fine with me);
3. to-hit determination takes into account the target's: speed, size, and range from the firing vessel, as well as its aspect in relation to the firer (broadside on, bow on, etc., plus any other appropriate modifiers);
4. modifiers for different types of torpedoes would be nice as well, if available, e.g. slow torpedoes, fast torpedoes, long lance torpedoes, etc.;
5. anything else that I've omitted from the above, that is probably important, e.g. night-time visibility, weather, etc.?

Basically, I'm looking for a decent set of torpedo rules to go with the old, quick-playing GQ1 and GQ2 rules, without plotting all of the paths of the torpedoes on the tabletop, and/or dummy torpedo attacks as well.

I'm interested in trying various actions with quite a few torpedo carrying platforms, e.g. destroyers, torpedo boats, and other smaller vessels, U-Boats, aircraft, etc., in convoy attacks, and/or escort vs. escort actions, so don't want to get bogged down into a lot of minutae.

For example, not sure that I will run a battle this large, but in reading accounts of the PQ17 and PQ18 Convoy battles, apparently 200 – 300 attacks (over a number of days) were made on the cargo vessels, by the Luftwaffe, for about 10 kills (in one convoy battle), which works out to about a 3% torpedo attack success rate, assuming all of those were torpedo attacks (which they weren't – some were by bombers as well; haven't run across the ratios of how many were torpedo vs. bomber attacks yet). So, I can imagine you can see the problem with conducting each attack in any more than a simplistic manner.

Perhaps a 1D20 die roll of 1, would be best, but something a little more tactically interesting than just praying to the dice gods would be preferred by me.

Same goes for the U-Boat attacks on the convoy's vessels.

Thoughts?

WW2 Micronauts:The Game by GHQ appears to fit the bill. It uses a D20. The steps for torpedo combat are:
a. select target
b. launch torps and record launch location
c. calculate range, determine if they reach target this turn or following turns
d. roll on torp spread table (determines if any reach target vicinity--if none do attack fails)
e. roll on torp impact table
f. roll on hit location table
g. calculate damage

the tables are not very large, have certain modifiers and are very simple.
it covers aerial, surface and submarine torps
you can see the tables and rules on the GHQ site under the free stuff tab and check them yourself. ghqmodels.com

Victory at sea has a very simple set of rules for torpedoes.
too simple for me but YMMV.

Command at Sea is another set, but very complex and you still need to track where the torpedo spread is at each game turn til they reach the target. then you go thru a number of charts and modifiers and need to know the length of the target etc etc. so are probably not what you want.

Some games like the Avalanche Press series uses a very simple to hit procedure dependent on how many hexes away the target is (one or 2 usually) with a D6 roll of a 6 or 5-6 being a hit depending upon a few modifiers.

GQ's system was ok if you had a referee (which I rarely do), but I think the level of detail is off. After all, your guns get a "straddle roll", why shouldn't your torpedo spreads?

I don't have a ready-made system, but here are some thoughts you might be able to use to create your own system:

* At the end of the turn, declare and launch any torpedo spreads. Place "splash" markers where the torps enter the water. This is the point from which the attack will be resolved.
* Roll to see if the target detects the torpedo. If so, it may make evasive maneuvers as defined in GQ rules. If you want more mystery, you can note which ship is targeted in secret, and let the other player freak out as desired. :)
* After movement but before gunnery, roll to "straddle" and resolve any hits using the usual GQ torpedo rules
* For "long lance" torpedoes, the first straddle "hit" moves the splash by the maximum range per turn of the torpedo. The next turn, it will attack from that point.

A ship may only take evasive action against a detected torpedo. If the torpedo was launched within 1/2 of the ship's current speed, then evasion works as normal. If the splash is outside that range, the straddle fails.

Torpedo straddle should become harder as range increases. It should be harder if the ship turns into or away from the launcher (broadsides are preferred – I'm not going to get into the whole "90 degree angle caused detonator failure on US torps early in the war" thing; you can if you want). To keep matters easier, use the final orientation of the target relative to the "splash" marker

For some extra spice, if you roll a "1" to straddle, roll again against a random ship within a circle (pick some reasonable size, maybe 1/2 torpedo range) around the splash. If another 1 is rolled, that ship is hit instead. Some ships were sunk by their own torpedoes. :)

For torpedoes that won't hit until next turn, make the straddle roll each turn, but with the range mods of the original launch point. Note that the torpedoes may not be spotted until the second turn, so the first straddle roll may be easier than the second one.

a. select target
b. launch torps and record launch location
c. calculate range, determine if they reach target this turn or following turns
d. roll on torp spread table (determines if any reach target vicinity--if none do attack fails)
e. roll on torp impact table
f. roll on hit location table
g. calculate damage

Seas of war is similar but in 'b' the launch position is marked and a wedge of a set of compass angles is recorded. The location is known by both players but the angle is only known by the launching player.
c and d. The movement of the real or dummy torps are marked each turn until they reach a target. Then a roll is done based on a table based on the arc the torpedoes cover, their number and the size of the target. Since the target player doesn't know the angle wedges the torps were launched into he could 'evade' into them.

link

Thanks for the suggestions.

I will have to look into them.

From the bit of searching I've done, Seekrieg 4, and/or Seekrieg 5 look promising too. Supposedly, SK5 is a bit more streamlined, with tables, so you don't have to use a calculator to figure out the values.

The downside to SK5 is the $200 USD cost, if you want the ship stats to go with the rules.

Seekrieg 4 is free on line. I dont know, but do you really think that the torpedo rules would be different between the 2 versions?
From what i understand you are looking for a different system to determine hits and then would use GQ1-2 for damage.
Torpedo rules are usually the most difficult aspect of ww2 naval games. Hope you find something you feel comfortable with.

Supposedly, it's the same version for SK4 and SK5, but some of the values are now in tabular format, so you don't have to use a calculator on the fly to figure out the percentages for the torpedo attacks.

Not sure what GQ3's torpedo rules are like, so I guess they might be an option too.

I agree, torpedo attacks are rather complex, but it should be possible to simplify them a bit, given the historical data now available from WWII. A simple system where you just check the range, target vessel's relative bearing, speed, and size, in relation to the torpedo salvo size shouldn't be too hard though.

Granted, a lot of variables there, but if you can do it for gunnery salvoes, it should be possible for torpedoes too, in order to provide a decent representation of what they should be, if not an accurate simulation.

Percentile chances, per torpedo would be great, but I can live with values for varying sizes of salvoes as well.

Mako,

I would highly recommend that you take a look at Mal Wright's torpedo rules. These rules fulfill conditions 1 through 4 in your original message above. In a recent convoy in Mal's Rising Storm game, I used his rules to fire a four torpedo salvo against a merchant ship, roll four D10, two hits on the primary target, miss the intervening smaller target, one hit the next target beyond the primary, and one complete miss, quick and easy to do, no tracking torpedoes, no determining salvo probabilities vs single shots, target size, speed, and firing angle all taken into account, plus differentiation among "normal" torpedoes, Long Lance, and air dropped. Mal's rules are a free download in the Files section of his Yahoo WW2 Convoy web site.

Jan

Thanks for the suggestion Jan.

I will do that.

I also need to check out the revised, Fleet Action GQ3 rules, which are apparently a bit simpler than they were before too.

The Fleet action GQ rules are a lot simpler. We used them with out a problem and I would say they match up to want you want torps to do.

To be fair though, it might be how we play them!