"Are Spartans Good Guys or Bad Guys?" Topic

Inspired by the Spartan quotes popping up all over TMP today…

Discuss.

"Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun."

There's only you and me and we just disagree.

Depends on whose side you're on.

Depends if you're in front of them or behind them..

Well they spoke with a scotish accent, so they must be good guys, we all know the rules for historic movie making, American and Scotish accents, means good, english accents means nazies and star wars villans.

Lets see, militaristic conquerors with heavily suppressed peasant class?

Not striking any sympathetic resonance with me.

Lets see, militaristic conquerors with heavily suppressed peasant class?

Well, by those standards, there's nothing much in the Mediterranean in the era that would qualify as good guys.

Doug

I've long thought it ironic that militaristic, authoritarian Sparta defended the freedom and independence of Greek city-states from forcible incorporation in the Athenian empire during the Pelponnesian War. And we look to Athens as a model of democracy.

Rick

Bad Guys. In just about every way, Spartan society was bad for everything, except fighting. They were very, very, very good at that; in their heyday that is; their society imploded with its built-in excesses and artificiality; but it took quite a while for that to happen….

Bad Guys

I would concur with elsyrsyn. If you take a good look at the civilizations of Classical antiquity, or even most places before the 18th C., you would have a hard time finding any that you would want to live in.

The way they treated poor Gollum in the sequel to the Lord of the Rings was terrible.

LOL

I believe it was Plutarch who relates the following,
An old man went to the Olympic games, but couldn't find a seat. As he went from place to place, he was met with insults and jeers, as all refused to make room for him. But when he came to the Spartan section, all the boys and many of the men rose and yielded their places for him. Whereupon all the other Greeks applauded and commended their action; but the old man, shaking and with tears in his eyes, said "It seems all of Greece knows what is the right thing to do, but it is only the Spartans that do it."

"Are Spartans Good Guys or Bad Guys?"

Yes.

I would agree with Mad Monkey 1, with one caveat: Depends on whether the Spartans are backing you up, or trying to stop you. I'd say the Spartans are good guys if they're guarding my back, after all.

Bad. Given a binary choice.

Its an odd question to ask. I suppose that we should be judging ancient states , if at all, by the standards of their contemporaries and themselves. Other Greeks felt uncomfortable around the Spartans. This was partly because the Spartans were dangerous enemies, but also because the others had a sneaky admiration for them, because the Spartans walked the walk as well as talking the talk. can we really condemn any group for having slaves 2,500 years ago?
When given the opportunity the Athenians proved to be just as domineering and exploitative to their allies as the Spartans ever were. I don't know about the Thebans, but suspect that they too demanded obedience when they were in power.

If I had to go for it I'd say that they were good guys because they did play a large part at Plataea in defeating the Persians and , if that had not happened, I suspect that the history of our part of the world might have been very different.
Roy

Goodish. To judge them by the standards of today is idiotic. They had their time and were instrumental in protecting Western civilisation.
I'm not saying I would have liked to have lived there but I'm glad they were around. And their women had freedoms other Greek women could only dream of.

Ancient guys!

there's nothing much in the Mediterranean in the era that would qualify as good guys.

I'm holding out for full democracy and decent plumbing; so no, no place in that era.

However given the choice between a free citizen in any other Greek city and a Spartan I'll pick the other Greek city; life seems a bit saner somehow. Arguably a Greek city under Persian control since you might have somewhat adequate central government as well.

Philopoemen was a good guy.

Good at fighting bad at democracy.

As good as you.

To take this WAY off on a tangent:

I remember a series of stories in "Boy's Life" magazine about a group of Boy Scouts that find a time machine that was buried in the Johnstown (Pa) flood of 1889.

They were able to figure out how to work it and thought it would be a grand idea to go back to ancient Sparta and collect a kid their own age to get them into shape for the upcoming Jamboree.

Define good and bad and I'll give you an answer.

They're just men:

YouTube link

YouTube link

YouTube link

Dan

It's a simple equation:

Persians= Spartans bad
Athenians= Spartans bad
Thebans= Spartans bad
Argives= Spartans bad
Sicyones= Spartans bad
Messenes= Spartans bad

Romans= Spartans good

Romans = bad

Therefore Spartans = bad

Well, harkening back to other good/bad, hero/tyrant threads, since the Spartans conquered or dominated others they are bad guys. Course, that definition covers most humans. Except the Samaritans, I understand they were good…..

Of course they were good guys

Let's see:

Persia: Absolute dictatorship, with supreme authority resting in an unelected autocrat, and all lower authority distributed among appointed cronies. The people have no voice.

Athens: Democracy, but limited to a ruling class, men only, so effective oligarchy, if broader than most. All others subject to the will of the oligarchical majority. Relatively high participation by the citizenry in the decisions of government.

Sparta: Oligarchy, restricted to a specific caste (for lack of a better word), men only (though considerably more influence from women than Athens admitted to). All others subject to the will of the oligarchy. Certainly not as much popular participation in the decisions of government as the Athenians, but more by far than the non-Greek world.

Rest of the world (effectively): Heriditary monarchies, effective autocrats.

Assessment: Sparta is therefore better than most at the time, but worse than what we consider free, ethical or moral today. It's all a matter of perspective. As to my personal taste, I think I prefer Athens to Sparta, but I appreciate Sparta for helping "put paid" to Persian expansionism and preserving (wittingly or not) the concepts of Athenian democracy and Western thought that guide our understanding of liberty and just government today. So, "bad guys" in the details, but "good guys" in the end effect.

And yeah, I still admire Leonidas (and think 300, while bad history, is a great film).

Lawful Neutral?

It's always more complicated than a dichotomy allows for… or the D&D alignment chart for that matter…

Are we judging them based on our modern values (20 x 20 hindsight issue) or the values of the time?

Dan

good

Assuming you are in a battle line:

Look to your left or right, if you see Spartans, Spartans = good

Look across the battle field, if you Spartans, Spartans = bad

Waco Joe for the win!

To take this WAY off on a tangent:

I remember a series of stories in "Boy's Life" magazine about a group of Boy Scouts that find a time machine that was buried in the Johnstown (Pa) flood of 1889.

They were able to figure out how to work it and thought it would be a grand idea to go back to ancient Sparta and collect a kid their own age to get them into shape for the upcoming Jamboree.

Ha! Did he beat them all to a pulp and steal their stuff?

Dave

Given the choice between the Spartans or the weedy Persians, I'll take the Spartans every time.

To take this WAY off on a tangent:

I remember a series of stories in "Boy's Life" magazine about a group of Boy Scouts that find a time machine that was buried in the Johnstown (Pa) flood of 1889.

They were able to figure out how to work it and thought it would be a grand idea to go back to ancient Sparta and collect a kid their own age to get them into shape for the upcoming Jamboree.

Of course, what actually happened is that the boy scouts were enslaved as helots. Except for the prettiest one and he was sold to the effeminate Corinthians as a catamite.

So mostly they were goodish bad guys with the odd moments of baddish goodism?

The Spartans believed that words and deeds must be harmonious.
They deposed the tyrants in the other City/States.
They usually left other Greeks alone unless provoked. (yea, except the Messenians)
They didn't allow physical violence.
They didn't allow greed.
They had free love.
Modern concepts of ancient Sparta are horribly skewed by the Romans, all would be bad asses who want to relate to the Spartans, movies, books, documentaries, the History Chanel and the Spartans themselves who liked to mislead others about their culture. Xenophon is about the only reliable source.
Piles of baby skeletons, beating boys to death, and hunting helots to murder them, probably didn't happen.
As for their contemporaries. The Athenians held the Delian League together by coercion (military and monetary). The Spartans led the Peloponnesian League by example.
The other ancient Greeks talked about the Spartans like they were rock stars. Plato admired them and preferred their form of government to democracy. Xenophon moved there and his sons went through the Agoge.
The Spartans were considered pious, virtuous, and above all to be taken at their word. Of course, nobody's perfect, but the Spartans at least had a plan, from Lykourgos, and they tried to stick to it.
Spartans were definitely Good Guys.
They have a lot to do with modern codes of ethics in Western Civilization.

Good.
Take what Agesilaus said.
And remember Athens democracy was NOT like today's by far.

Which Spartans? I would dare to point that in 300+ years of recorded history, any state would have its share of "good" and "bad" deeds, either you judge it by modern moral standards or by the ones used by its contemporaries.

In any case the question -and the answers- reveals more about OUR morals (at least, the ones dominating at TMP) than about the Spartans, or any other state for that matter.

Sparta was Bad by todays standards – as were all ancient societies in one way or another!
At the time, they were seen as 'Virtuous' by many of their peers.
If that equates to good I leave to you!

I guess there were good and bad greeks in all the states, I think its a bit prejudiced to say a state was good or bad.

However given the choice between a free citizen in any other Greek city and a Spartan I'll pick the other Greek city; life seems a bit saner somehow.

Unless of course that City State begins to receive the unwanted attention of "democratic" Athens. Then "not so much".

They were *before* good and evil.

Someone should start similar threads about the Romans and the Athenians.

For the role of women in society, really good.

For cuisine, really bad.