"Didn't Eureka Have Plans To Make Australian Aborigines?" Topic

. . . FOR 15mm?

Or did I just imagine it?

It really would be nice to expand on the 15mm QRF Koori I bought. There's only the one set from QRF:

link

Eureka's 15mm Amazonians, Hawaiians and Ancient Native Americans look really nice, but they don't quite scream Australia. I want more of that distinctly Australian (or even New Guinean) flavor:

So, has anyone heard anything like that from Nic, for 15mm?

Thanks,

Dan
TMP link

Australian aborigines don't look anything like New Guineans!

They don't now*.

But, despite modern appearance, recent genetic studies seem show that they do share a very common origin (more shared Denisovan traits than any other peoples), before the waters rose again and broke up "Sahul" (Austalia, New Guinea and the sunken land bridge). This happened before the populations split from each other, and before other migrating groups came to the area.

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And their "simple" but effective weaponry seem to have a lot of elegant similarities, which could mean the use of many of the same miniatures for both populations.

Dan
* Just like modern Africans, Europeans and Asians have developed their own distinct appearance through the ages.

wow , remarkably well researched poor taste..

Huh?

I'm just asking about 15mm figures that I could perhaps use to represent the original peoples of that general area (ice age period "Sahul"). If that means using Aborigines, then so be it. What's the problem with that?

As for Etranger's emphatic statement, it sounds as if all the original native peoples of Australia were exactly the same*. Or as if saying that Australian Aborigines have any similarity whatsoever with people from New Guinea was some sort of an insult.

The people who first arrived at both Australia and New Guinea about 50,000 years ago shared a single landmass ("Sahul") for at least 40,000 years, and only became separated around 8,000 years ago, when the land bridge was flooded:

Very similar to the issue with the early populations on both sides of the Bering Strait land bridge. There are some genetic and liguistic links on both sides of that land bridge too.

I don't get the hostility. I simply don't get it.

Dan
* Example of a little-known population in Australia:
link

very straight forward question. Why the hostile reaction?

I have no earthly idea.

Maybe I cross-posted to the wrong boards (the two 19th century gaming boards). I thought they might have additional and helpful insight on what figures to use.

Well, I won't make that mistake again. Geez.

Dan
PS. If asking for 15mm figures of Aborigines is so offensive, I'll settle for 15mm figures of Melanesians.

ah, haters that don't care to explain themselves can sit on a 'hawaiian good luck sign' and spin.

CC, are those your gaming photos?

and

Absolutely stunning, I may need to pick your brain for photogenic terrain ideas later.

I really wish those photos were mine. I found them here:

TMP link

I would love to pick his brain too. Beautiful work, with both the terrain and the figures.

Dan

Never said that they weren't originally genetically similar, Dan, but that was a long time ago.

There were probably waves of settlers into Australia, with the earliest being pushed South by later waves. When the first settlers arrived varies between 10,000 & 80,000 years ago, with the consensus being 40-60,000 years. There has long been trade between the Northern parts of Australia & the various island chains to the North. That's wher the dingo came from, around 3,500 year ago, probably from Java or thereabouts.

There's an enormous difference between the pre-contact Tasmanian aboriginal & their contemporary Tiwi or Murray Islanders (all nominally Australian aboriginals) yet alone a 'mudman' from the New Guinea Highlands. (The latter being Melanesians anyway). They dressed differently, used different tools and weapons, had very different belief systems etc etc. For example Woomeras, boomerangs are unique to the Australian population, & bows and arrows passingly rare, if ever seen in Australia. They just don't look similar.

You might as well say that the same figures would work for the Incas & the Sioux. After all they're genetically similar, too!
Seriously, you wouldn't do it for Native Americans, would you?

The authors of that piece you've linked to are known for a particular line of reasoning that could perhaps be described as controversial and not necessarily one that's subscribed to by most experts in the field. To go into that further would require the Blue Fez.

Which link? This one?

link

If so, can you explain the pictures of the Australian "Barrines" then? Are they fake?

Dan
PS. "Incas & the Sioux" lived thousands of miles away from each other and never traded.

Yes. link I said that they were controversial!

I've seen that terrain up close. It's just painted teddy bear fur (or similar) over books & other formers, with some trees bought in from a local scenic company. Simple enough to do.

I don't know how controversial it can be. The Barrienans did live in Australia and seem to have been pushed to tiny pockets in corners of the continent long before the arrival of the Europeans:

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link

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Anyway, I think I'll do fine with the Aborigine figures I got. No need for anyone to go through any trouble finding more variants of Aborigines for me.

Thanks,

Dan

But nor did many of the aboriginal clans trade with PNG, for the same reason as my somewhat fanciful American example! It's a long, long difficult way from the North of Australia to anywhere else, even with modern transport. There was some cross Strait trade, but also trade with the Chinese & Javanese.

As far as the photos go, malnutrition, disease & varied ages will explain a lot. There are clearly immature (adolescent) males and females in that first photo. Sadly, you'll still see plenty of similar examples in a modern day outback camp.

As to the second. I've got a Chinese friend who comes up to the same height on me & I've got a very similar photo somewhere. Evidence of Chinese pygmies or just a short statured person?

Sorry, edited while you were posting. Those figures are reasonable for the stereotypical pre-contact aboriginal.

That's ok. I think I'm good.

Thanks,

Dan

CC,

Had a conversation back at Historicon [Hystericon IMHO] in '01 and one of the guys from Eureka told me they'd never do Aborigines, as the political atmosphere in Australia was not conducive to it. Nor did he believe there was a strong market for it. I believe it was on their Club 300 list for some time. I haven't checked in a while, so it might still be there.

I don't understand how people can get bent out of shape over a bunch of metal figures but there you are.

Guess the politically correct mob runs Oz like everywhere else.

Yes. Very sad. Yet some people there don't seem to have any problem gaming scenarios that include figures of other native peoples from other lands.

What does that tell you?

At least figure manufacturers in the US still make Native Americans, Africans and everything else under the Sun. And gamers here can still play Cowboys and Indians.

Dan
PS. Eureka does have a couple of listings for Aborigines:
link

Would Blue Moon's Dark Africa tribe #2 (kinda looks New Guinean to me) or their pygmies work?

As an aside (hopefully a useful one for someone reading this) they are available in 28mm, from Blazeaway minis (www.blazeaway.com.au), whose website says they are reorganising, and have been for some time now. They also say they'll be dropping some ranges.

you can call it political correctness gone mad all you like , in Australia it is in very very poor taste and if you are too thick to understand why then you you can sit on your Hawaiian thingy and whirl to your bum's eternal contentment

As a sculpter who work for Eureka Miniatures, I can say that whether a subject is 'politically correct' or otherwise has, at most, a marginal impact on if it generates a range of miniatures or otherwise.

Stuff generally gets made either because it is reasoned that it will sell well, or if Nic, or one of the sculpters has an interest in the subject thus making it an enjoyable and interesting project. If a particular period or troop-type ticks both these boxes, then it has a greater chance of becoming a reality.

-Kosta

I disagree cardinal, history, however distasteful is history. Our fair land is mired in PC. Reference to a topic should not expose an individual to any form of immediate vitriol, is that not the essence of a democracy? Disagree by all means, but provided the conversation stays within accepted parameters is it wrong to air an opinion?

Edit: as stated above, the market dictates, and the 28 mm sold consistently well.

Then call this Yank a [looooooots of expletives deleted] moron, because I don't get it, Cardinal Hawkwood.

The Native Americans don't seem to mind when someone makes miniatures of them (frankly, some of them are at least as passionate about getting the details right as us 'palefaces'). What is it that the Aussies find so objectionable?

Apologies for the double post, user error….

I'm not familiar with the 'hawaiian good luck sign'……?

I actually find this thread more than a little morally confronting so I am not going to have any more to do with it..

It's a reasonable initial question and an interesting following discussion. Re: 1 small aspect – There is evidence that trade was common between Aboriginal people and the Macassans (Indonesian natives)perhaps from the 15th C. New Guinea natives can readily access islands in the Torres Strait (Torres Strait Islanders are Australia's other indigenous people). Torres Strait Islanders certainly interacted with Aboriginal people and New Guineans. One Torres Strait Island is considered the traditional country of an Aboriginal Group. As an aside, if Etranger's reference to Murray Islanders is to the inhabitants of Mer, etc – these are TSIders not Aboriginal people.

I actually find this thread more than a little morally confronting so I am not going to have any more to do with it.

no. don't. stay.

I guess it's a good thing that no one asked for a Cardinal Hawkwood mini. :)

Mmmmmm…. drama…

"I actually find this thread more than a little morally confronting so I am not going to have any more to do with it.."

Another example of someone trying to club the entire planet over the head with their own myopic morality. I find it odd that the people who are so righteous are so often so angry, closed-minded, and intolerant of anything but their own viewpoint. Thank god I can stifle them forever.

Please enlighten the ignorant, Cardinal.
I have absolutely no idea why this is morally offensive, and I gather that others share my confusion.
It does no good to say it's in poor taste without explaining why to the well-meaning.

Is the idea of representing aborigines (is the word "aborigine" itself offensive?) in "artistic" likenesses offensive to them?
Is the idea of the "land bridges" fraught with racial "issues" that non-Australians are clueless about?

If there are problems here, it seems rather parochial, and most of the rest of us are clueless. Please enlighten us. I for one am clueless. All I can do is guess.

Ridiculous, the poster wasn't asking to represent modern day genocide, forced relocations or internment or death camps, he was asking about various indigenous figures from the area from about a gazillion years ago. Tribe fought tribe, sometimes combat was ritualized other times quite bloody. Is it politically incorrect to do Bronze Age or Neolithic gaming now too? The Neanderthals need a special interest minority support group? Hope you find the figures you need for a GAME that does not cross any moral/good taste boundaries. And wanting to get the correct look of a people really should not be dismissed so aggressively. Heck, perhaps a percentage of the sales (which tiny percentage there might be!) can go to Aboriginal programs?

by the way, that's an incredible picture of the hunter in the marsh with his full panoply of weapons.

I've got no idea of the scope of the OPs gaming project, but since he posted to the 19th Century boards, although by no means a phenomenon confined to Australia, the concerns raised probably relate to the genocide of the native inhabitants by the early white settlers. Some of the issues are probably covered here:
link

Which, as pointed out (white settler) genocide figures was not what the poster was requesting. He was asking about distinctly Australian figures:
"I'm just asking about 15mm figures that I could perhaps use to represent the original peoples of that general area (ice age period "Sahul")."
Which pretty much, even in my addled mind, would not include A.D. or C.E. representation after Mssrs Cook et al.
So, I for one at least, don't see the controversy.And, he did say he regretted his era for posting on the 19th century boards – just fishing for any info on figures it would seem, I shalln't read anything more into that, others might want to.

at the risk of throwing gas on this fire, for 15mm couldn't you use about any naked or near naked figure for them.

the naked post was to much wasn't it
I knew it but it's to late to delete it.

What? Well, ok. For the sake of people looking from work.

I was so taken aback a bit by the initial responses to my thread that, when I replied to them I completely forgot about people that might be in a different environment.

To those specific people I apologize. I certainly don't want your bosses to think you were looking at "pornographic" images (though they are not, of course), and then take it out on you.

Dan

CC I think you have no reason to apologise for persons higjacking your question.

" Our fair land is mired in PC. Reference to a topic should not expose an individual to any form of immediate vitriol, is that not the essence of a democracy? Disagree by all means, but provided the conversation stays within accepted parameters is it wrong to air an opinion?"
Hear Hear

I am with John the OFM. However I am Australian, grew up in Surrey Hills Sydney (cnr George & Cleveland St). My sister lives in Gove, Northern Territory. I don't understand the Cardinal's problem.
I have travelled through Russia, Poland & Czechoslovika. I can take offence with people who game WWII.

And thank you Super Mosca for answering CC's question.

Hey wait a minute! Can people get this page at their work?

@deflatermouse – if you can't view TMP from work, someone might suggest you look into proxies to get around such trifling issues. Didn't come from me though.

Back to the OP. This question seems to come up from time to time so there must be reasonable interest.

thank you for the hint, Bandolier. I'm a chef, someone might suspect something if I'm on a computer at work.

Or just 'google translate' the page, deflatermouse. The web-blockers only see the 'google translate' IP address, not the address/details of the site you're browsing through 'google translate'

Ok, I will admit, the 'hawaiian good luck sign' is *very* rude. (It's a quote from Top Gun, refers to a fist with the middle finger raised) Bill may freely DH me for that, I won't even complain.

But I am so utterly tired of people saying "I'm offended" and stopping all discussion on a subject instead of saying "this offends me because …"

Sorry to I was trying to be facetious: joking or jesting often inappropriately

"Ok, I will admit, the 'hawaiian good luck sign' is *very* rude. (It's a quote from Top Gun, refers to a fist with the middle finger raised)"

Oh Ok…….I thought it may have been something sold too tourists, maybe even found in a snow dome for example.

Gray Ghost. Don't worry, you didn't say anything wrong.

I've just remembered about a Police mate of mine who was stationed in a remote NT community and had a large wargaming collection including some converted figures to use as Aboriginal Warriors. Some locals (including tribal Elders)used to visit his house from time to time and took great pleasure in seeing those figures. They would even point out what the appropriate body paint and colours should look like. No shame or embarrassment was involved. Pride, in fact, that there was interest in their history and traditions.

I've got no problem with someone making the figures. It's just inaccurate to use the same ones for aboriginals and New Guinea natives. …..

For the origins of the "Hawaiian Good Luck Sign", see the seizure of the USS Pueblo by North Korea.
link

Top Gun got it from that incident.

It's a touchy subject down here, though I've not read anything here that is offensive etc etc.

It's not so much PC as white guilt, plus the Aboriginals are still marginalised here so there hasn't been resolution like in US and CA.

I personally think there's more mileage in miniatures of the creatures of aboriginal myth and legend. They have some really good monsters and bad guys.

Native Americans are still pretty marginalized here, too.