"Computer Moderated Gaming - web based approach" Topic

Hi all !!

Here is something that might be of interest to avid gamers who want stupid levels of detail in their Napoleonic games, without all the paperwork.

I know that Carnage and Glory is out there, and it does a fantastic job of a difficult subject, but I am after something a little different.

Looking for something preferably web based for multi-user interaction during a game, but most importantly – something that is easy to hack around with and change.

Having a look at all the options, I figured the best course of action is to just write something from scratch as a web app.

So I thought – if I take Empire V as a starting point for the command and control and combat resolution parts of the battle, and build a computer system around that.

The idea then is that a server runs the game at the back end, and players just login to the game from their own laptop using a standard web browser. Players then submit orders to units, and click a few pictures and buttons to submit combat engagement details. The computer then manages all the book keeping, dice rolling, table lookups, etc …. and spits out reports.

Being browser based, it will be quite simple to add AV type features to the interface, so that the computer may play some music, or display video clips at critical points in the game. All easy to add.

I have published a draft spec here for roughly what I want the system to do :

link

One potentially painful issue is the creation and editing or ORBATs for the computer system to use. From what I hear, that is the most painful aspect of using most computer moderated systems – its all the data entry up front before you can start a game.

I cant see a simple solution to that problem … except maybe for this idea :

- Define a simple XML schema for defining Napoleonic armies.
- Use off the shelf tools to edit these ORBATs
- Put up an online forum, so that people can share ORBATs.
- Allow the application to import/export any ORBATs in this XML format.

So ideally, you could just download any number of pre-made ORBATs from an online library, load them into your system, and get gaming immediately. That would be nice.

This is what I have on that score so far … with a few sample ORBATs for the Jena Auerstaedt campaign.

link

Note that once the format of the XML file is all sorted, its really really super quick and easy to create nicely detailed ORBATs for Napoleonic battles using this tool.

With the back end web application – I will do this as an open source project, so once it is sort of usable, I will open up the code for free download for both use, and hacking with.

On the technical side, this will be purely a LAMP application (PHP / mysql), using codeigniter for the framework. All simple, reliable stuff and well supported.

Anyone will be free to grab the code for the application and run their own version with whatever house rule hacks they want. The more the merrier !

Cheers

Hi Steve- What a great idea, and very altruistic-It looks very good,but I'm relativly good with computers and I have no idea what "treeline" to download, how that works, and much of the vocabulary, directions and explanations are hard to follow. I think the trick is to make it easily understandable and usable for those with no programming background at all- 99% of us- now having said that, if you create a downloadable windows version of everything in one basket, you will really have something, but otherwise those of us who don't speak programming wont get past your blog explanation. I mean that in the nicest way- and applaud the effort so far.

By the way, a web based application that allows an umpire to control communications for a double-blind style campaign would be awesome-and you could be just the guy to do it- something that anyone could load on to their own server and start running-or use from a website with a password… or, simple? perhaps an Access database with automated email data gathering for orders? Cheers,
Rob

Thanks Rob, sorry for the nerdy computer talk too … just making sure that the nuts and bolts of the thing are described up front to save answering a lot of questions.

The actual usage of the system will require no special knowledge over and above using a web browser (and the ability to issue good orders to tabletop troops !)

TreeLine is an application for editing things that are structured in some arbitary way. Its a free / open source application that is available for download here :
treeline.bellz.org/index.html

And I am finding that perfect out of the box for editing orders of battle with lots of structure and detail. You can download and run that on a windows box no problems.

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The campaign idea you mention sounds interesting as well. Something to look at later for sure, but at least having it as a web application allows cool features like this to be added with relative ease.

Another thing with the web server architecture that is remotely possible (with a lot of extra effort) … would be to play tabletop games between opponents across the internet, with the server sitting in the middle as the umpire. There are plenty of people on TMP for example that I will probably never get the chance to play against face to face – but if it could be done over the internet …. imagine that !

Steve, Interesting, very interesting. I'll have a thorough look later on.

As Rob knows, there's a couple of us who've so far had a bash at online campaign systems, I'm halfway through beta testing my version now at link (with blog posts about it at britishforces.org.uk under the Campaign System category) so I'll be following your progress carefully!

Gavin

Looking at the campaign system on britishforces.org.uk … very cool stuff ! Many good ideas and live experience there.

Will be keen to have a closer look later on.

Cheers

Well it's occurred to me that we'd possibly be best served in getting a cabal of interested parties together to work on something that would suit all of us.

I'm sorry, 90% of that went over my head. But it did at least raise my eyebrows. I wonder why nobody has thought of using a system like this to run "true Kriegsspiel" games between linked teams of players?

Hi Again Steve-
Tabletop games across the internet with a server umpire- and/or a real one- posting pictures turn by turn- I really look forward to any applications that can bring players from across the globe to shared games! That will really add so much to the shared experience of our hobby!. Just a matter of time I hope. Boy, would I like it available yesterday!

Now, I'm loving Carnage & Glory, and I want to get Umpired PBEM going with an "Umpire Database" when the campaign version of C&G comes out much later this year.

Essentially, web facilitated miniature games will get here, and I can't wait. How cool to attend a convention or a club night somewhere in the world virtually, and participate!

I also love me some Empire, as a simulation ruleset-but not the time/detail playability- so I really like what you are doing with that here.

Also, I have some big (army sized) French, Russian & Austrian OOB's in excel spreadsheets already-now, If I open them then save them in XML format, can you use them? I could use some guidance on how to make them available to your project…
Best,
Rob

Hi Rob,

Regarding the OOBs – I can use the excel spreadsheets as they are, or if you like, just grab some of the XML ones that I have on that site, and play around with changing them. Once you get the hang of how the units are edited, it all comes together quite quickly. No rush anyway – start with something small and see how you go.

Having fun with Empire here. I just finished off a test-jig in the web application where you select 2 opposing infantry units .. enter the range, formation and number of figures in each that are eligible to fire … and then it does all the numerous calculations based on a tonne of stats that it knows about each unit from it's database.

Does the calculation and multiple sets of results in one hit. Initial volley, return volley, both morale tests, firefight resolution, accumulated casualties and fatigue, ACE computations, etc, etc. Does the whole thing in an instant as soon as you press the submit button, and then tracks the results against each unit correctly, so Im pretty pleased with that so far. I think it might actually work.

But geez – its over 400 lines of code just to calculate 2 infantry units facing off with musket volleys. 1 down, another half a dozen types of combat resolution to go.

:(

Empire is amazingly complex when you get down to it. There are a lot of little ifs and buts buried away in the rules that I am sure get missed all the time.

Once having tasted that level of detail in a miniatures game, its actually pretty hard not to want more and more. At least with the computer handling the book keeping, that is possible without interfering with the gaming experience. One example for that – with disorder, I am tracking that as a % disorder against each battalion now, so they can degrade in tiny little increments depending on whats happening to them. Sweet !

There are some very interesting discussions happening on the Empire yahoo group from guys who do a lot of real world reanacting work with black powder weapons. There is an insane amount of detail there that could be modelled in a simulation ruleset, but is not entirely practical for playability.

With a computer doing all the grunt work though – there is no limit to how detailed the modelling of combat can get. One example of that is firing at slightly oblique angles … whilst a line as a whole can fire up to quite acute angles, there is a point after which the 2nd rank can no longer bring their muskets to bear for firing at targets slightly off from their front. Interesting.

Another aspect is the information flow. I am assuming that each player represents a Corps or Army commander on the table top. The status reports that the computer presents to the player are a function of how far away the player is from the action. In his local area, the reports are quite timely and accurate. For events happening out on the wings, the status reports and details of casualties will be deliberately vague … so the player may have to move close to the action if he wants to know what is really going on pver there.

… and then there is artillery !! hmmmm.

Point is, you can really lap up the detail once the computer model is accurate.

A good side effect of encoding these immense rules as a computer program is that I am picking up a lot of nuances in the rules that I simply missed before. Good learning experience.

On the web based remote gaming thing – there are a lot of obstacles to getting that working smoothly …. but wouldnt it be excellent once its a reality. Its bound to happen before long. It has to happen !

I reckon – Lets just make it happen.

A Special Loathing for Cherubs sed :

I wonder why nobody has thought of using a system like this to run "true Kriegsspiel" games between linked teams of players?

Actually, it does exist … and its quite amazing to use … but its not available to the public as far as I know. 'Players' in separate rooms with limited information on their screens, and communications only via 2 way radio sets or the occasional courier. Lots of fun !

Hi Steve,
No doubt the detail and coding is crazy! One of Empire's strengths as a simulation is the amount of detail, but it's also a weakness, as the learning curve is..well, as you say, you are still learning! What you are doing is awesome…
R

Hmmmm. I might have to think about the Empire Campaign system I have in a box downstairs…and how it might interface with this, in terms of fatigue, morale, replacements, sick, wounded, hospitals…it's been a while since I used it.

For me, the campaign is the thing. That's what drives the circumstances of battle. Good Napoleonic computer tactical rules are in my opinion superior in most ways to paper and dice,(however yours will be only the second reliable and effective system besides C&GII) but like most paper rules they have lacked a !usable workable! integrated campaign system (other than the DOS version and developing C&GII system)

I am always going to be trying to integrate any rules set I use to a campaign system…and it seems to me computer aided campaigning is the way to realy elevate the game and bring necessary complexity together with playability for some really challenging gaming. Combine that with the internet, and wargaming with Napoleonic Miniatures is high tech, beautiful old school art. Wow.

This is exciting stuff Steve. Hope it keeps comming together.

Hi Steve,

Please email me at:
nedz AT mindspring DOT COM
I would like to discuss this concept more and share what we have done in with a similar concept.

– Ned