"Further Comments on the Privateer Press Brouhaha" Topic

Don't worry about the complaints about this thread or any news story you post, Bill.

Some people don't like having to think too much about their closely held beliefs, so they want to quash any discussion that makes them uncomfortable. However, your site provides a valuable service by addressing issues related to this hobby, even those topics sometimes rub people the wrong way.

Keep up the good work, and ignore the naysayers!

... even IF those topics sometimes rub people the wrong way.

Good to hear from you directly.

Talking about your target audience is a normal thing when the topic comes up. It isn't something we blurt out unless it is brought up (typically) by the customer.

For the impression that your wife gathered from the conversation, it was obviously a misunderstanding. I can only wonder if your wife spoke to a fan of ours? Someone that was giving his/her opinion and was NOT a rep for PP???We certainly had many fans at our booth hanging out for quite awhile.

The names at the booth were the following:

Sherry Yeary (blonde with black 'highlights')
Matt Wilson (salt and pepper)
Brian Snody (medium length brown with a 5 o clock shadow and cigar)
Rob Hinds (skinny and tall with black hair)
Myself (The Grinning Wolf/Michael Chavez- average height 240 pounds, dark brown hair)

That's it. No one else helped out at our booth by invitation or in any other official capacity.

Regards,

TGW

Was the guy wearing a dark blue semi-turtle neck sweater by any chance?

T :D W

But how can someone apologize for something that someone else had done?

You said""" given the way you guys have focused your marketing strategy, you gave my wife the impression that she was deliberately excluded, and talking about your audience reinforced that impression."""

Then unfortunately for her she needs to grow up. Maybe she should have read the rulebook instead of going off half-cocked.( it's a term from the old west not sexist just FYI.) Thats the lamest thing ever. There was a woman(Sherry) at the booth who you wanted to talk to...and still got the impression that females were being deliberately excluded?

That makes as much sense as not seeing the forest through the trees.

The Ed: "...you know what they say about statistics..."

As in: "There are three types of liars: liars, (dawghouse word) liars, and statisticians"? Always loved that quotation. I have heard it attributed both to Disraeli and Twain.

[Perhaps this will get me in the Dawghouse, but when long time members speak out of censorship]

I don't recall any long-time members claiming to have been censored on this issue.

[Advertisers pull their ads because of it]

Well, *one* advertiser (a fairly new one) did pull his ad. However, he's also posted (on other forums) about how he doesn't like the people at TMP, so I suppose everyone will be mutually happier over the change. :-)

That leaves 99.9% of our advertisers (measured by advertising volume - and that's an accurate number) who have NOT registered a complaint.

[and even new people are being subjected to it, allegedly, then I have to wonder.]

The rules are no profanity, and to keep arguments from getting personal. That's all there is to it.

Yay, I'm glad to see some resolution finally come to this topic. Seeing as how this topic played out I wouldn't be surprised if PP develops a de-facto response to this issue for future use (my guess is there would be some reference to the large amount of women players who enjoy the game). If you did actually view any of my posts to be hostile, I'm sorry. The problem with the written word is that there's not really a way to express tone. My view on everything was because I know PP and its representatives better than I know you, and I am obviously going to take their side. It's not a matter of "Fanboyism," it's a matter of sticking up for a "friend." PP is a small company and is very interactive with the community. In the future please don't paraphrase the way you did when talking about something as serious as this, as the same thing may happen.

To the Editor: Just some advice, be careful because too many rules and the community may collapse in on itself... I think what had put me in the "dawghouse" was my use of "fsck" which, by the way, is a legitimate acronym when used correctly :P It's a geek thing to use it in place of the swear. It stands for File System Check. I was going to put a link to ThinkGeek.com with their T-Shirt with it but it seems they don't sell it anymore :(.

Micheal --

I presume he was one of your guys. He was behind the table, in the exhibitor area. During the conversation, he drifted back and forth so that the display of minis blocked my view of him repeatedly. The reason why I thought it might be Matt is that Jishin addressed Sherry first, but Sherry instead deferred to the gentleman in question. (If Brian was chewing a cigar, this definitely wasn't him. However, given that I can't remember seeing his name tag, I might be presuming that it wasn't Brian simply because I would remember. If I didn't actually see it, then it could be him.)

Based on what you're saying, I suspect your guy didn't click to the real question he was being asked, because I do remember Jishin mentioning your marketing materials, as in, "your marketing materials contain ..." He should've listened to the "offend women" part. Given how badly (and quickly) the rest of the conversation went, it's entirely possible.

(I continue the memory dump, by the way, without accusation at this point. Your apology *has* been accepted, so now I want to make sure that you understand what happened.)

This whol;e topic is about one person being offended by a martketing slogan, and according to TMP that would be one person two many. Now Bill had an advertiser pull his add because of this and he seems to be happy about it. Doesn't that smack of a double standard?

And the biggest hoot of all of this.

Jishin and hubby werent even talking to a Privateer Press person just some con goer.

that's too rich.

Wonder who deserves an apology now.

Guess TMP and Meiczyslaw gots to eat a little crow.

Quiet you. :P You aren't helping improve the image of the Warmachine community.

Great Jump`n Boo Gaa-Woo Gaas!

:O

LOOK at all these guys here in this topic thread that JUST joined up on TMP TODAY!

I`m a palio of Matts, have been for a year or more now...and he IS a great little guy.

I am glad to see so many of you PP forumes guys come`n here to try to clean this mess up.

I hope some of you hang around, TMP is a coolio.

BTW: I talk just fine...damn it!

:)

BME

Timberhick --

I'm going to stop assuming that you've read the original thread now, and will now repeat myself:

Jishin went to the booth in the hope that because this is a small(ish) company, they'd made a dumb mistake with their marketing materials. Young companies are allowed teething errors. By starting the conversation with Sherry, Jishin figured that it wouldn't take her long to get the point across. Guys can be pretty dense on the subject. ;)

Micheal --

In this case, the materials were an off-white handout that used to be in all the game stores I frequent, but are now just on the wall next to the Warmachine product at Game Empire. (I should be more precise here -- everybody had an off-white handout, and we assumed that they were the same ones that are at the Empire.) The handout seems to contain all the possibly offensive expressions from the rulebook. Presented together, and possibly out of context, they become much more likely to offend. (They certainly offended Jishin and her best friend.) We haven't even looked at the rulebook because of that handout.

Timberhick-- have you even READ any of these posts?!! It has NOT been "about one person being offended by a martketing slogan" (sic), but instead has been about CUSTOMER SERVICE, which apparently was not so good. And where on EARTH did you get the idea that "Jishin and hubby werent even talking to a Privateer Press person just some con goer."? Nobody involved ever said that! It was a supposition by The Grinning Wolf, NOT a statement of fact!!! And the aforementioned TGW HAS appologized-- you're just making things worse for the image of PP fans (myself included); even m0nk3yb0y thinks so. Drop the high handed attitude, boy-- this has been satisfactorily resolved by the parties actually involved.

It seems to me though she was offended by an advert of the stores and NOT PP. I have never seen this flyer (described in the other thread) since we have carried Warmachine (its first release). I work at a hobby shop that fully supports the Warmachine line and will do so as long as they do.

On the other hand, if customer service was handled that poorly, why was it not handled on the spot? If thing went the way they were described, they were handled poorly by both sides. By not readressing the problem directly with the company, how would you get any resilution? I have seen no answer to this question.
@Meiczyslaw: Did you speak to anyone at the time of the occurence or afterwords? Maybe speaking to another MAN might have gotten a different response?

Bill-

No censorship of this issue? Okay, I can accept that. This issue hasn't been censored.

The long time member I was referring to is a RL friend whom I was discussing this with today.

Everyone Else-

Doesn't it say something about a company when so many of it's fans come to a website and make an account just to defend it? Even though that one line may be found offensive, surely it speaks well that not only the company but the people who run it have ardent supporters willing to speak up? Why let one remark keep you from trying a game you may truly enjoy?

Now if you want to talk... I could spend a few hours discussing why I like the game and the people who made it. Besides, if you don't like the line... use a Sharpie pen to mark it out. ;-). I'd also extend an invitation for any of the TMP members to join our forums and talk to some of the people.

I think my email is displayed in my profile, so if anyone would like to talk about the game and not it's target audience *grin*, feel free to email me.

P.S. I'm kinda dig'n this BME guy. I like people with attitude. They keep things interesting in discussions.

Quote Fanboy, dude you need to get with the program here. no one attacked PP as a company, what we have here is a couple who were offended by a slogan, of which I don't think is anything to get upset about, but each to their own, and according to them were given a poorly thought out answer. That is it. /Quote

ok, you need to read a little more clearly:

Quote Because of this poor example in customer service, the females in the area have gone from not buying Warmachine to actively discouraging people from buying it. There are many other games out there, after all. Quote

Is this not a personal attack on the company?

The facts are, PP owes this man's wife nothing. No one knows the real story, we got a praphrased third account from an angry feamle.

So she is 5 feet tall? You know the average height for a feamle? So man, she has no right to use this asa lame excuse, my wife is 4'11", my mother in law is 4'10", my grand mother in law is 4'9". Thats short. thats also 100% irrelevant. Why was the fact that your wife is short included? Why did yOUr wife approach a company, selling a product, that she doesn't use, with the intent to see if thier advertising was in error?

I simply beleive that she went looking for trouble, and juding by Grinning Wolf, the incident didn't even take place, which makes you a person who made up some drama to smear PP name.

this really sounds like a case of a couple of self righteous people, a feminazi, or a serious GW fan boy really trying to smear the name of a competing game company.

The fact that people come here, and autmatically assume that your second hand account of this story is gospel is more shocking.

Whats even more shocking is that this website admin decided to put the news on the front page.

Why should anyone from PP come here and say anything to anyone? I would even say you have even less right to complain now, and could be guilty of slander, which is a crime, and is punishable by law.

No evidence supports what the original poster was saying.

I take offense to the arrogant people here who have the nerve to call WM fans immature, when it was someone else who came to a website on a mission to slander the name of a gaming company over a subject so trivial.

Pathetic, so saddening.

Nazrat I point to the above response from Meiczyslaw. better yet I'll quote it for you "they'd made a dumb mistake with their marketing materials." I dont know about you but I dont see anything about customer service there.

Nor do I say I represent PP. yes I am registered there but have made no posts, then again I am registered on a number of forums. I am only responding to this topic because it truly has ticked me off that someone thinks that they are above everyone else and that there point of view is the only way anyone should look at something. TGW has apologized for something that was not done by PP and to apologize for that is very wrong. That gives free reign for anyone to have a gripe now the chance to say all sorts of things and demeand an apology from PP. that's a precedent that needs be nipped in the bud real quick

And there was no dumb mistake in the marketing materials. Just because Jishin and best friend were offended by something they saw (instead looking into the matter further like a normal adult would have) they go to a convention and demand an apology.

Then instead of talking to someone that they know is a direct representitive of PP some guy gives them some answers. Furthermore TGW dismisses the description of the person that they talked to as anyone with the company. Not only that but seeing as how men can be so slow sometimes. Why didn't Jishin go back and talk to Sherry like any normal female would have. She wanted to talk to her in the first place, so following that logic would she then also have dismissed what said male had said as some blatherings from a neaderthal?

I just want to put in my two cents here. First, Meiczyslaw, if you are so offended bu PP and the way you were treated then just state your stance and be done with it. However you feel the need to chime in constantly. You are only fanning the fire. Not only does that make you look imature, but it diminishes the power of your argument.

The sad part is I think you enjoy watching this explosion (as does your wife who i suspect is rooting you on). Just drop it and move on. Go play another game like 40k or somehting.

So.

I read a thread somewhere where some person told an hobbyist that his book (Warmachine: Prime) was 'satanic' due to the 'satanic' writing on the cover. Clearly she was offended. Should PP change the type face of their cover for her? Perhaps my house is not a pleasing shade to you. Should I repaint it? PP said their piece on Page 5 -- either you found it funny (in a potentially juvenile way), or you were offended. If you were offended, walk away.

From Bill Babe:"Then there's the matter of "poot." Someone complained about "poot tail" the other day, so I did a google search for the term - and was surprised to have TMP show up as the #1 website in the world for poot tail! :-("

Well...some body got to do the hard work and the dirty jobs.

;)

Bobby Babe...well you know what happens if you let things calm down?

People get fat and lazy and then a freash young entity takes their world over.

If they come to my door or that of my kin, it`s on babe!

Klick Klick BOOM!

;)

BME

Guys --

If y'all have such faith in Privateer bein' good guys, you can trust them to handle this, right?

They've found me, they're talkin' to me, we are currently copacetic.

Attacking me is now, and has always been, just a waste of everyone's time, including your own.

Well if you really dont mind I think a number of us still want to gnaw on our livers and such.

Come on it was so much fun. I think we all should get something from TMP from this. This place hasn't been this lively in absolute ages.

Timberhick-- You are obviously still ignorant of this whole issue, I think. You've come in in the middle of it, and you're knee-jerking to beat the band. It's OVER and done with. But I'll try to enlighten you, though-- Meiczyslaw's wife was bothered by something she saw on a PP poster at their local store. She approached their booth at a Con, and attempted to engage a Rep in a conversation about said poster/ad campaign/slogan. By all accounts, she NEVER asked anyone to change anything. She attempted dialogue, but was rebuffed in what she perceived to be a rude fashion because she "wasn't part of PP's target audience" (paraphrased by me), and walked away in a huff because she had been blown off as a potential customer. That's BAD CUSTOMER SERVICE... PERIOD! THAT'S what started this entire "controversy". Then all you PP die-hards started joining TMP to primarily launch personal attacks against Meiczyslaw. Which does FAR more potential damage to PP than anything Meiczyslaw has said. I've seen his posts here for years, by the way, and can honestly say that he is no slanderer or rabble rouser. If he says the conversation happened, it did. But all parties directly involved have agreed that there was a misunderstanding of some sort, and apologies have been tendered and accepted graciously.

And now you're actually mad that a representative of PP has apologized for the apparent slight by one of their Reps (and NOT for the slogan which precipitated the whole mess). Perhaps you should give up your unreasonable tirades. You're only making the entire Warmachine community look worse to those who don't play the game.

"Come on it was so much fun. I think we all should get something from TMP from this. This place hasn't been this lively in absolute ages."

How would YOU know? You JUST joined yesterday! Or is a day ages to you? 8)=

[QUOTE]But all parties directly involved have agreed that there was a misunderstanding of some sort, and apologies have been tendered and accepted graciously.[/QUOTE]

And I really hope it can just be left at that. A misunderstanding because no matter what was said, we are sure it wasn't intended in the way it was taken. A misunderstanding because Jishin is certain that what we said was intended in the way she perceived it. And who are we (or anyone) to say that a person's perceptions are wrong?

So we say that we are sorry if our words (even without being able to confirm those words, but in an act of faith in what is being reported by Jishin's husband...) gave that mistaken impression.

And thus it should end with:

"Everyone is warmly welcomed to play this awesome game and to join in our even more awesome community!"

IMO, there isn't a single person within PP or amongst our player base that would say otherwise.

TGW

"Timberhick-- You are obviously still ignorant of this whole issue, I think. You've come in in the middle of it, and you're knee-jerking to beat the band."

Nazrat, forget it, eh? I think your reasoning will escape him.

His account is only a day old (created 25 july) and just seems to be a sort of low key sort of a sockish type thingy?

MHO

Meiczyslaw,

looks like you may get what you want, great, i'd hate to see your wife offended as well.

now do us a favor: admit that going to a con with an intense statement regarding her personal beleif Pp markets in a discriminatory fashion really left the person in question no where to go.

i mean, come on, thats a pretty heavy statment to start a conversation no isn't it. i can appreciate being forward and to the point, but she started the conversation at an intense level and sounds to have gotten an intense response.

Sd

This thread and the others like it amply demonstrate the downside to successfully appealing to GW's fan base. You get the GW mentality. WM is a great game, the slogan is slightly purile but not offensive to most, and the parties involved have resolved their differences. All that's left are the untamed fan boys keeping it alive.

Don't.

Geez folks! Does anyone really not know what is meant by the expressions "playing like you got a pair" or "little girl"? Or, to go a little further afield, the expressions "like you got some" or "girly boy" said with a thick pseudo German accent?

I guess if you don't mind, then buy the product. If you don't like it, then don't buy the product. Simple innit.....

Dont forget you have a post in english clause BME. That last post was getting a little too hipster old chap.

I just haven't logged into this place in well over 2 years. So I created a new account. What's wrong with that theMackster? My normal handle was already taken when to joined this place originally 4yrs ago so I made a new one. Which I have forgotten precisely how I spelled it. I have now gotten use to my new 'handle'. One that I can remember and so far noone has started to use yet. Now disprove that will you please.

nazrat that is what you may see, but I have read all of the posts about the so called encounter and they only come from one pseron so if he flips on what was said or how it was protrayed I can't stop that.

As for TGW and his apology? Who is he really, besides just a volunteer. He doesn't work for the company. So why would anyone want his apology? It has no meaning. Would anyone accept the apology from the chicken when your pissed at the farmer? If you do, then your complaint had no merit and you just wanted your feelings stroked.

I do think that most of the regulars here do need a sitback and reevaluate what they are saying. TMP has been percieved as nothing more then historical gamers bemoaning all other types of games. Just look at what was said without looking at who said it. Show me where the TMP 'oldies' are so much more sofisticated.

Look at this whole topic, instead of taking the time to have the supposed incident taking care of in the mature adult way. It is instead bantered about on the net with everyone else piling on to defend or refute what actually happened. What's even worse is when a person there(one not involved in it) and refutes what the original poster said, the TMP 'oldies' stick by their man. What is needed? a video of it or something. Once more what has been protrayed as a conversation lasting mere moments is now lasting long enough to have the supposed rep able to drift back and forth multiple times, which convienently blocks his named tag to the point that neither saw his name.

What do most need to see that this didnt happen the way it was put forth here at all?

The guy who kinda-sorta refuted it is the same one whom you claim has no authority to apologize for the incident-- namely The Grinning Wolf/Michael Chavez. And EVERYONE else is over it, how about you? Perhaps we can all move on, and you can stop making those of us who really like Warmachine from feeling embarrassed of our peers...

Actually nazrat I was over it. Didn't you understand the hyperbole about gnawing on livers.....

just like meiczyslaw didnt get into the discussion either but you seem to believe him....didnt he say it was between his wife and this 'rep' and he was just there?

Huh?

Oh, forget it!! So, Timberhick, what faction do you play in WM? I have a Khador 13th Legion force. Me likey!

There, THAT'S more like it!

I have faith in PP to not handle this. There's nothing to handle. Being good guys they'll realize that.

Meiczyslaw, I am curious about one thing. Is your wife a mainlander -- a product of the Cultural Revolution? I'm just curious -- I do not plan to make any desparaging remarks (or huzzahs) or use the info on this or any other public forum at all.

[The long time member I was referring to is a RL friend whom I was discussing this with today.]

OK, now I think I know who you're talking about. He and I have discussed the incident. He feels the word he used was acceptable, and claims it is often used by others at TMP. The dictionary disagrees with him, and a forum search shows the term is NOT used commonly at TMP.

He says he'll go elsewhere now. I'm sorry to see him go, and wish he would reconsider.

Come on it was so much fun. I think we all should get something from TMP from this. This place hasn't been this lively in absolute ages.

Not til I started to post on the daily base...in fact.

But don`t worry I`ll be here for a long time, and when this all is forgotten about and has blown over ...you will still have good ole BME to piss you off and rile you up outta your slothish funk.

LOL!

;)

BME

I have PoM, Cryx, Khador, Mercs just can't seem to get into Cygnar.

As you will find out I am a very large Devil's Advocate type person. I will poke holes in most anyone's reasoning. That is when people start to think a bit more for themselves instead of being lemmings over the cliff.

Truthfully meiczyslaw and TGW had the same role in this...bystander. No different then the schoolyard brawl when everyone saw something different.

When you look at this way you really get to the quick of it.

meiczyslaw wasn't part of the conversation but demanded an apology

TGW wasn't part of the conversation yet made the apology.

Now sit back and think about that for a good little bit. Now tell me how that isn't absurd.

That's like North America and South America getting into an arguement and Asia demands an aoplogy because it happened and Africa making the apology.

(rustle rustle)

Foo. I'm out of popcorn.

This is better than WWF.

Oh man, I just spent twenty minutes typing only to have my entire post disappear...so I'll try to keep it short and to the point:

""Smedley seems to think out his responses carefully, for example.""

For what it's worth, thank you. I try to be at least as articulate and civil as I'd like others to be to me.

""Smedley's mad at me, thinks I dawghoused him unfairly, but hasn't spoken to me directly.""

When the original topic poster didn't bother trying to resolve the issue through PP's customer service but instead went straight to the forums to slander PP, why would I worry about sending an email to the management of a forum that chooses to selectively enforce it's content guidelines? How could I even expect someone to care? And for the record, I DID try to contact someone through the only means I saw at the time. Old news.

And for anyone who wants to toss around accusations as some anonymous handle in an internet forum (very brave), let me explain things: I am a fan of PP and Warmachine BECAUSE of how I'm treated as a customer and supporter - i.e. with RESPECT. I've had more pleasant dealings with PP in the last 4-5 months than in 10 years dealing with GW. The game is more fun (even when losing badly, I might add - not that I ever lose, though!), so much so that Warmachine has rekindled my interest in going to random game shops specifically to meet new people to play! As a fairly introverted person, that's quite a statement.

Smedley

Okay, that's it. I'm now deeply offended by candy bars. Yep, that's right, candy bars. With names like "Mounds", "Butterfinger", and "Mr. Goodbar" what sensible person wouldn't be offended? Let's not limit it to candy bars, what about junk food in general? You got "Twinkies", "Cup Cakes", "Good and Plenty" and the ultimate insulting junk food - "Ding Dongs".

I demand an apology from the makers of these products as they are highly insulting.

[...a forum that chooses to selectively enforce it's content guidelines?]

You used profanity; the others didn't. I didn't nuke your first several posts, only the one that broke the forum rules.

We can agree to disagree. But if I want to stick around, I'll be a good boy.

Smedley

We'd be glad to have you.

Timberhick: You're right that I am not an official spokeperson on policy and such and my blanket apology does not count as coming directly from PP. Although I am an official rep in the matters of gaming promotions, rules, tourneys and such, I do not partake in policy. Since I was there though, I wanted to assert my opinion that what I overheard certainly did amount to misunderstanding for which I am sorry the whole thing did occur. It seems like Jishin's husband is all right with that.

Thank you very much for your concern. This is out of my hands as I'm sure PPS will step in if they wish to.

Regards,

TGW

PPS has responded:

TMP link

Timberhickey – "My normal handle was already taken when to joined this place originally 4yrs ago so I made a new one. Which I have forgotten precisely how I spelled it. I have now gotten use to my new 'handle'. One that I can remember and so far noone has started to use yet. Now disprove that will you please."

How hard would it have been to go through the list of reserved names on the "Add New member" page at:

TMP link

You might have remembered what name you used originally ( if you wanted to ) . I have a pretty good "forgetory" as well, so I write things down. That may help you too.

I'm too lazy to go back and check, but I think someone said something about thinking things through, or getting people to think. Good advice!

Nimrod SS

This is incredible. You finally remember the exact words said to your wife and we're expected to think that it was offencive. I didn't see any thing in those words that could be thought in any way offensive to any one. It was simply a statement of how they marketed their product. How is this bad. Is it because the statement didn't agree with your agenda. "Play like you have a pair," come on, men might as well be offended by femenin Hygiene products. Expecting an apology for such a thing is rediculous.