"Further Comments on the Privateer Press Brouhaha" Topic

I'm still getting a lot of email on this, so thought to continue my earlier editorial ramblings from the homepage...

1) Why am I allowing Meiczyslaw's post to remain at TMP, since it is slanderous/ libelous/ malicious/ fill-in-word-here?

Meiczyslaw has the right to express his viewpoint. It isn't slander or libel unless you can prove he's lying.

2) But he's declaring war on Privateer Press!

I don't see any evidence of that in his posts.

3) But if you leave his post up, then you are agreeing with him!

No - I'm just saying that he's broken no rules of the forums, so I have no grounds to remove his post.

4) I've heard that TMP is where every game company gets attacked.

If that was the case, why do most of the game companies advertise here? We do have a Consumer Affairs board, but it is moderated and unfair complaints are removed.

5) But you put that stuff on the homepage today, so you're just trying to stir things up!

No, I was just trying to respond to various emails in an efficient manner.

6) The bully tactics of TMP have reached a new low. Continually placing damaging material on your front page to make companies seek a resolution favorable to your members is borderline extortion.

I have taken no sides in this discussion, and I am certainly not trying to "extort" anyone. Rather, I was just making it clear that Privateer Press was welcome to reply in any manner they desired.

7) Why do you keep censoring people who disagree with you?

I think if you'll review the Dawghouse, you'll see that the only action I take is when someone breaks the rules. I don't care what side of the argument they're on.

Have we seen a spike in memberships, Bill?

Don't let that stuff get to you Bill. Some people just can't grasp the concept of independent reporting.

I just wish domeone from PP would step in and tell the fans to back off. I really like what PP is doing with their game but this infected discussion just puts the whole company in bad light. Most PP fans understand this but apparently there are a few loudmouths who don't.

Cheers/Fredrik

Funny thing is I overheard this short lady at the con talking to a man about how they could start alot of bad press for Privateer Press. Did'nt think anything about it at the time but now this...

Sounds to me like what happened is now clear. And since you cant prove that i didnt hear it then this better stay as well because I "have the right to express my viewpoint. It isn't slander or libel unless you can prove I am lying."

Storm - Teacup.

I think people that post messages exaggerate the importance that most folks place on things they read/hear on sites like this.

Its way too easy for a few loud people to try to make something an 'issue' when its really nothing of the sort.

I speak from experience having been on the recieving end of a 'campaign' - it'll all go away and no-one will care in a weeks time.

Hopefully by then all parties involved will have had a quiet cup of coffee and realised its not that important anyway.......

Just a thought about the surge in traffic. That was about the time I saw the front page notice of the "next big thing." Until then, i hadn't been aware of it. And then couldn't access what it was about.

Bill --

Sorry about this. Here I was thinking that I was just noting that someone was behaving poorly, and somehow it's been construed into ... I dunno. A terrorist threat?

Fanboy --

I believe you. But my wife didn't say it, so that means somebody else must have been teed off by your favorite company.

(Sorry to get off topic, but I couldn't resist. I will now go back to studiously ignoring the firestorm.)

Fanboy, dude you need to get with the program here. no one attacked PP as a company, what we have here is a couple who were offended by a slogan, of which I don't think is anything to get upset about, but each to their own, and according to them were given a poorly thought out answer. That is it.

yet you find it neccessary to chime in and make blanket attacks to them, Bill and everyone else. That is the hall mark of childish behavior and bad manners.

I for one like Warmachine, could'nt care less about the RPG, but I was a little concerned by the reporting, but since it seems to be an isolated incident, I will take it as it was presented with a grain of salt and there you go. We all have had instances where we are upset by something someone did and we move on.

I have been offended by BTD, GW, AEG( now there is a sore spot) and a quite a few others. GW and BTD rectified the problem and I still buy from them, AEG is another story, but that is not the point.

Just deal that someone is upset and try to be part of the solution, and as an FYI post such as

"Sounds to me like what happened is now clear. And since you cant prove that i didnt hear it then this better stay as well because I "have the right to express my viewpoint. It isn't slander or libel unless you can prove I am lying.""

do nothing to help your cause..

GAR, the darkside cowboy

I have no idea what's going on - I haven't been able to get to the thread as it keeps timing out on me. But as a fan of Privateer Press I have every intention of learning what happened. I can honestly say, that whatever I "learn" will not pull my support away from PP. Those guys have always been courteous and professional in every aspect of their business.

Crusaderminis --

I agree with you. How this turned into a "campaign" ...

Actually, I know how it turned into one. I forgot my own admonition to people: "remember that *everybody* reads this site." The regulars recognized my hyperbole, but the newbies didn't. I got careless with my wording, and by the time I'd gotten everything clarified, the storm had already started.

Ah, well. At least I know who my friends are now. ;)

Well...at least the guy that cuased this baby poot stuff was smart enought to save himself from being camped out on the floor of his garage...

Dude... spare us your libedo, will yeas?!

I can see your silly little wife standing behind you with her bottom lip poked out, and her mean little face glowing red, as she stands over you with her thumb on your head, tap`n her little foot while you typed up the first post that started this topic thread.

BLAH...Blah!

Anyhow...

I called Matt today, and he is just swoning in his bed and crying over how much $$$ and reputation he will (NOT) lose over this mad little girl who has probally never even purchased a single thing from his company.

Rolls over and yawns...then decides to go sculpt now.

Even!

GRR!

BME

Careful, BME. That might be one of them personal attack things that get you back in the Dawghouse. ;)

So has Privateer Press apologized for their reps boorish behaviour? Is his behaviour Official Policy?

altfritz --

I have not received an apology. If there has been one on the forums, I haven't seen it. I do not know if it's PP official policy.

Qualifications to those statements:

If an apology was sent to my home e-mail account, I haven't seen it yet. I'm reading from work.

I haven't been reading the thread I started since the Privateer fanboys showed up in force -- they wanted to argue with me about the Privateer marketing strategy, when the real problem was with the rep's behavior. If anyone's been reading, feel free to correct me on that one.

The rep *might* have been BME's friend Matt. According to DungeonTrader, there were five people from PP at the Con, all of them big-wigs, and he was one of them.

Sorry -- let me be clear on the "feel free to correct me."

Correct me, please, if Privateer has put an apology on that thread.

Meiczyslaw "Careful, BME. That might be one of them personal attack things that get you back in the Dawghouse. ;)"

No no....anything but THAT!

:)

I understand why you did it man, but it is just silly...ain`t it?

;)

BME

It seems to me that PP has mad a conscious decision to be obnoxious and boorish, assuming that they would get more business as a result. BME "says" he was talking to them and they are not afraid of lost business. However, just how much business they lose is soemthing they will never know, it is just unquantifiable. There is no line item in the books for "money lost due to boorish slogans".

It won't affect me one way or the other, since they do not make the product I would buy anyway.

John the OFM

[Have we seen a spike in memberships, Bill?]

I won't have the numbers for Monday until tomorrow. For Sunday, when much of the discussion occurred, visitor numbers were actually slightly low - probably due to the conventions...

[Just a thought about the surge in traffic. That was about the time I saw the front page notice of the "next big thing." Until then, i hadn't been aware of it. And then couldn't access what it was about.]

I've been poking around in the logs. The surge seems to be due to people trying to read the PP topic, which also happens to be a particularly long topic, so that's the bottleneck. What I need to do should be fairly simple (cross fingers) - turn long topics into multi-page topics.

Meiczyslaw,

If you had just travelled to Historicon instead, none of this would have ever happened...

:-)

:-)

"Have we seen a spike in memberships?"

My question too. Lately, I've seen a lot of names I've never seen before. And there's a lot of fanboy sentiment being expressed on a lot of threads.

Goldwyrm --

That's what I was thinking, too. ;)

Too bad I'd already made three trips East this year. :(

If you check the membership info on most of the Pro-PP posters on the thread in question, they almost all became members yesterday.

There are some who, I think, could be good members here if they stick around -- Smedley seems to think out his responses carefully, for example.

But I shan't be crushed when some of them lose interest and drift away. For one thing, getting onto ANY board was very difficult today.

John --

One of the things that bugs me is that they could have nipped this in the bud. I was told by one of the more polite fanboys that Warmachine has a poster of their female mage with a couple of mechs, and the caption is "Who needs a pair when you've got these?"

If it were *my* company, I'd carry a box full of these posters to every con I went to. When a female approaches me with the original complaint, the script would be something like this:

"It's meant to be a playful 'Battle of the Sexes' kind of thing. We've got some of our tournament posters here that show it a little better ... " (opens poster) "What do you think?" (If she expresses approval, offer her the poster.)

That would at least give her the feeling that she's respected as a customer -- you're showing her that you're trying. (Failing, sure, but the attempt is what's important here.)

I'm not understanding why they have to make an apology, personally

Meiczyslaw--
If as you say you overstated what actually happened shouldn't you be the one to make an apology?

Since you exaggerated what happened how are we to know what really did happen?

My take on what 'actually' happened.---Meiczyslaw asks who their target audience is. answer given...everything else is pure hyperbole. just to spice things up of course..We all know he's such a jokester...

John--
BME was using hyperbole in his statement which most who know him on the net would know. Atleast he knows who his friends are now

[Careful, BME. That might be one of them personal attack things that get you back in the Dawghouse. ;)]

Well, if *you're* smiling about it, then I suppose the rest of us should.

I believe that what BME is trying to express is simply that women often have a strong influence on their husbands. And I don't believe he meant "silly" in a derogatory fashion, though it was perhaps a tad condescending.

Then there's the matter of "poot." Someone complained about "poot tail" the other day, so I did a google search for the term - and was surprised to have TMP show up as the #1 website in the world for poot tail! :-(

The problem with "poot" is that few dictionaries even agree what it means. Some say "fart." Some say "poo poo." Some say something more coarse than poo poo, and have it on the "vulgar words" list. Frankly, I don't think I give a darn about "poot" unless you all convince me otherwise...

Neotacha --

Agreed. It's one of the reasons why I lasted as long as I did on that thread.

Man, I'm getting old. I let a flame war run me off. ;)

Bill --

Part of the reason I put up with BME is that he reminds me a lot of my brother-in-law: a well-meaning guy who doesn't have a strong command of conversation. I knew the image he was going for, even if he didn't express it well.

Fine, Mieczyslaw, but how much business do they lose by people who just blow them off on first impressions? I am not required to go up to someone and explain politely how he offended me, and give him the opportunity to change my mind. That's a big market out there, with a lot of product for sale. It is not smart to gratuitously offend potential customers just so you can impress your peeps with how non-
PC you are.

""If it were *my* company, I'd carry a box full of these posters to every con I went to. When a female approaches me with the original complaint, the script would be something like this:""

Why? this is the first instance of anyone ever being offended to such a point that they had to comment on it in such a fashion. So out of the atleast 100 people who play that's an awesome customer satisfaction score. But more to the point neither of you even play, so why would any company care all that much about what you want? Particularly in such a niche market... One person can't make the game system go away. With the number of awards that they have won in the past 2 years somehow I think they are going to weather this little burp quite well.

Look at the clicky games how many bemoan the systems and yet the stuff is still all but flying off the shelves

Timberhick, I don't care if they make an apology or not. I am merely suggesting that is not sound business policy to look for people to offend, and try to make it up with sales to another group who are supposed to like the fact that you offended the first group.

I have no dog in this fight. As I stated earlier, it is not my type of product anyway. My Historicon shopping list included AWI Bitish LI and gerenadiers, and WWI Brits on bicycles and with Lewis guns.

And, yes, I know all about BME's "hyperbole", if that is what you call it.

on the bikes with lewis guns?

now that would bew insanly cool!

A conversion possibility I hadn't thought of! Time to take a look at the figures...

Timberhick --

The hyperbole in question was "swearing War on them and their children." The conversation in question was accurate. Unfortunately, I didn't think to include my wife's side of the conversation until later, so you'll have to read the thread (up until my midnight post) to see the whole thing.

Basically, we didn't bring up the concept of target audience, the PP rep did. Jishin's initial questions were actually about the marketing slogans, and whether they knew they were offensive to women.

[If you check the membership info on most of the Pro-PP posters on the thread in question, they almost all became members yesterday.]

OK, let me look at my "other" statistics (you know what they say about statistics...). We had no spike in terms of visitors, but we did have a spike in terms of new members.

Last week, Sunday and Monday: 38 new members (including some sock puppets!)

Today and yesterday: 62 new members, even with the slow website.

John--
have you watched any commercials in say the past 20 odd years or so? you can't make any kind of adverstisement that doesn't offend someone someplace. You have to minimize the risk...and from the looks at what Privateer Press has done in the past 2 years or so..I think they have a sound business strategy.

John --

Are we lucky enough that the bikes are the ones with the big, ugly front wheels? ;)

Hello!

This is my first post here. Nice to meet you all.

I worked diligently at the Privateer booth all four days and the only time I was not there was during my lunch breaks.

I'd like to assure everyone that noone at the booth would have addressed Meiczyslaw's in the suspected manner as it has been described. I'd like to quote myself on my views of this unfortunate situation as I have already posted to the PP forums site:

[quote]

was surprised to see that anyone could have posted so much unfounded concern on TMP. Unfortunately, I couldn't read it because the link kept timing out.

I remember someone describing a tall person with blonde hair. Well, Brian Snoddy is not so tall and his hair is more brownish than blonde to be sure. The only person at the booth with Blonde hair is Sherry! (and she is on the short side and clearly not a guy )

At one point, while stuck in the middle of a demo I heard Brian explaining something about our target group. I can tell you that what he said was answered in a purely professional manner in the same way that Mattel would say that their line of Spiderman toys were targeted for preteen~teenage boys.

If you don't know your target audience, how the hell do you plan on marketing a product?????

And of course, I can guarantee you that he never said or even gave the impression that women were not welcome yadda yadda.

Why would fan boys such as myself, the president of the company (Sherry), or the co-owners and creators of this company ever want to go there in the first place?

Pure rubbish.

Well, we had a great time and I can attest to the fact that everyone was extremely excited about promoting WM and nothing less!!

TGW
[/quote]

I took a strong stance here because I strongly believe in PP's commitment to excellence and many-times-over praised great customer service as can be evidenced in many many threads on the PP forums.

If PP was not such a great company, I would not work my butt off for them as I do and as a volunteer representative for the company. I have never worked with and/or volunteered for a better bunch of people in my life (I'm 35)!

That said, I truly believe that this encounter was misunderstood in some way by Meiczyslaw's wife and I am trule sorry that it has happened. As an official rep for PP, I can say that ALL genders, races and ages are MORE than welcome to this awesome game and community that we are all so proud of! There are no 'ands', 'ifs', or 'buts' to what I have said. Everyone is welcome! I have personally seen Brian Snoddy, Matt Wilson, Sherry Yeary and Rob Hinds welcoming everyone of every background to the game and personally giving them game demos, info and smiles. Lots of them.

Meiczyslaw: I apologize for any misunderstanding between the PP person in question and your wife.

Best Regards,

Michael Chavez
PG The Grinning Wolf

[Smedley seems to think out his responses carefully, for example.]

Smedley's mad at me, thinks I dawghoused him unfairly, but hasn't spoken to me directly.

I just noticed that I don't have a way of editing my own post so I would like to insert the word "wife" after "Meiczyslaw's" in the 6th line down, thank you.

Timberhick --

You misunderstand the possibilities of the conversation. Women in general, and my wife in particular, enjoy being recognized. The company might be making an apology, but there's a fair chance that they win a customer that way.

The hyperbole in question was "swearing War on them and their children." The conversation in question was accurate. Unfortunately, I didn't think to include my wife's side of the conversation until later, so you'll have to read the thread (up until my midnight post) to see the whole thing.

According to you, now according to the demo rep there was noone working the booth that was male with blonde hair. If I am remembering your post on hair color. He said you talked to Brian Snoody who according to the pictures and when he was at Origins didnt have blonde hair.

for your viewing pleasure
"" was surprised to see that anyone could have posted so much unfounded concern on TMP. Unfortunately, I couldn't read it because the link kept timing out.

I remember someone describing a tall person with blonde hair. Well, Brian Snoddy is not so tall and his hair is more brownish than blonde to be sure. The only person at the booth with Blonde hair is Sherry! (and she is on the short side and clearly not a guy )

At one point, while stuck in the middle of a demo I heard Brian explaining something about our target group. I can tell you that what he said was answered in a purely professional manner in the same way that Mattel would say that their line of Spiderman toys were targeted for preteen~teenage boys.

If you don't know your target audience, how the hell do you plan on marketing a product?????

And of course, I can guarantee you that he never said or even gave the impression that women were not welcome yadda yadda.

Why would fan boys such as myself, the president of the company (Sherry), or the co-owners and creators of this company ever want to go there in the first place?

Pure rubbish.""

I don't see where that slogan is offensive to women, it my be offensive to you wife but my wife has no problem with it. The female players who play Warmachine dont have a problem with why do you think it's offensive to women? shouldn't be woman. And honestly do you expect to live your lives in a complete comfort zone?

I guess you could call me a fanboy of PPS (Privateer Press Studios). I'm a demo rep for the company since it hit my area. I own a complete line of a single faction and half of another. I play it more than any other game. I've met Rob Hinds, ran tournaments, demo's and post regulary in their forums.

Since reading Meiczyslaw's post I had kept my thoughts to myself. Until now it would appear. :-)

IF, and I stress that word, his wife was offended by a PPS Rep or Staffer member I don't understand why post about it? I mean if some guy is a jerk to my wife, I'll be talking to him personally. Not in a hostile manner. I would seek resolution on the spot however. If nothing else, an apology for rude behavior.

To post the incident in a forum seems to be an act of spite. No resolution will likely come from it. None that I can see anyways. Nor does any one persons lack of couth reflect on the game itself.

I mean, thats what this whole webpage is about right? Miniatures and the games they belong to? At least in part.

Perhaps this will get me in the Dawghouse, but when long time members speak out of censorship, Advertisers pull their ads because of it and even new people are being subjected to it, allegedly, then I have to wonder.

By making such an inflamitory thread notable on your website Bill, I think you are wrong. Such discussions should be allowed to die, not be kept alive. Surely some new miniature has come out that deserves more discussion than a "bruhaha" in a thread? Your constant use of "Play like you have pair" used in your posts says to me that you are not neutral. You've chosen a side too. The sarcasm is evident and aimed at PPS and it's "Fanboys" as we've been labeled.

BTW, I dislike the term Fanboy or any other label.

Welcome Grinning Wolf! Hope you stick around a while. We're not always boiling about like a stirred up anthill. I suspect the summer heat's got us all somewhat edgier than usual.

Thanks Neotacha :)

Ah well, it just seems like a misunderstanding to me. Nothing to get overheated over imho.

TGW

I'm wondering where the counter post from PP is. Frankly, if the incident as Meiczylaw reports it is accurate, and I heard a salesperson under my employ say that, they would no longer be employed. I would like to hear what their company policy on that is. As for the phrase 'having a pair' well, women have some pretty impressive 'pairs'. On the other hand, I don't have a high opinion of Sales/Marketing anyway. I have heard top salesmen from two major companies I've sculpted for (and I will mention Ral Partha and the individual can come after me if he wants)say extremely offensive things about my own and fellow sculptor's work and our persons to potential customers. I would like to point out that some of the very *best* sculptors in wargame miniatures are women... and the two I know personally would have had the 'salesman' in question on the floor begging for mercy... by their 'pair. assuming they really had them.
Oh, no, they'd probably have more sense and go for the throat.

Richard Kerr
Gray Cat Studios/Gray Cat Castings

"Brouhaha"

That an American thing, sounds like something a paratrooper would shout?

btw.. I thought the Got a pair slogan was great..

Micheal --

First off, apology accepted. As I mentioned before to Bill, I apologize (to you, too) about how much trouble this brewed -- it was meant to be a throwaway post about "don't do this at home."

Just to clarify, the person we talked to was *not* Brian. I do look at name tags, and the folks I've heard of register. This guy's name didn't register. (Though I remember that Sherry's a Strawberry Blonde. That I remember that -- and that I didn't get the other guy's hair right -- *will* get me in trouble with my wife.) ;)

In the future, please realize that talking about your target audience isn't really helpful in this situation -- given the way you guys have focused your marketing strategy, you gave my wife the impression that she was deliberately excluded, and talking about your audience reinforced that impression. Despite what Timberhick thinks, all that was really needed was an apology for creating that impression.

I think I do understand the posibilities.

I'm just under the impression that either

A) you hollywoodized what actually happened to make for a better movie of the week story

or

B) You get a thrill out of causing strife.

And as what Bobby said it should have been taken care of then and there not aired out to make you feel better or something. What has this truly done for either you or Warmachine?