Help support TMP


"The Quick and the Dead Coastal game" Topic


33 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the WWII Naval Discussion Message Board


Areas of Interest

World War Two at Sea

2,473 hits since 23 Mar 2012
©1994-2020 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Kaoschallenged23 Mar 2012 6:46 p.m. PST

How many of you have played The Quick and the Dead, by Jon R. "Buck" Surdu? What are your opinions of it? Robert

Mako1123 Mar 2012 7:08 p.m. PST

I have not.

If you don't get much feedback here, you might try checking the Narrow Seas Yahoo Group as well.

I imagine a lot more people there may have purchased, or at least tried it.

TheCaptainGeneral23 Mar 2012 7:25 p.m. PST

I have purchased it, but, have not had a chance to play. From what I have read it looks fun and very fast!

Kaoschallenged23 Mar 2012 9:41 p.m. PST

Same here TheCaptainGeneral. Just had to when I saw it on sale grin. I also downloaded the additional boat records for fighting in the North Sea and English Channel.

PDF link

I posted in the Narrow Seas Yahoo Group too Mako.

Robert

Don Hogge23 Mar 2012 10:17 p.m. PST

The game does play fast – not for the slow strategic thinker. Loads of fun.

Don

TheCaptainGeneral24 Mar 2012 10:34 a.m. PST

Thanks for the PDF link Kaoschallenged! I didn't know about these!

Time for me to scrathbuild some ships

surdu200524 Mar 2012 1:33 p.m. PST

Thanks all for your interest in the rules. I wrote them a couple of years ago. As Don Hogge said, they are meant for quick, sharp actions. Coastal actions seem to have two distinct phases: the slow, stealthy approach and waiting phase and the chaotic, mad combat phase. Because the nature of these two phases are so different, I felt that the rules could only do justice to one at a time. The Quick and the Dead is meant only to represent the second phase.

A game lasts only about 30-45 minutes once your players understand the mechanics. You can easily play three actions in a single sitting. Make sure you take a break between each game, because you players will be exhausted otherwise.

The no-turn, constant play mechanic is not difficult to understand, but difficult to grasp at first. I tell people that they need to play it three times (that's three 30-minute games) before forming an opinion.

If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them. You can post here, on narrow seas, or directly to surdu@acm.org.

The rules come with charts for the Med. You can get the data tables for the English Channel at my Web page: link

Buck Surdu

Kaoschallenged24 Mar 2012 1:36 p.m. PST

Most welcome TheCaptainGeneral. I found it by accident when I was looking to see if anyone had anything for the North Sea and English Channel. And was surprised. Over 420 pages thumbs up. I found it on Jon R. "Buck" Surdu's website. Robert

surdu200524 Mar 2012 3:43 p.m. PST

TheCaptainGeneral:

PT Dockyard has all the boats you'd need for WWII coastal actions. That's where I got mine.

Buck Surdu

Mako1124 Mar 2012 6:05 p.m. PST

Sounds like fun.

Am I correct in assuming that the people that can lay their cards down more quickly have the advantage, assuming there are no turns, e.g. they can outmaneuver others by doing so?

Are the relative top speeds of the vessels taken into account during the movement phase somehow?

How is firing weapons handled, since I presume that might cause a small break in the action to see if you hit the target, and if so, what damage is done?

Finally, are there rules for close-in grenade attacks, accidental collisions, ramming, and boarding actions?

Kaoschallenged24 Mar 2012 7:49 p.m. PST

99% of my ships and boats are from PT Dockyards and the rest from Sktrex.

PT Dockyards
ptdockyard.tripod.com/id5.html

Skytrex
link
link


I bought The Quick and the Dead rules from the Wargames Vault when I saw it on sale. It looked interesting to say the least. And thanks for posting Mr Buck Surdu. AKA surdu2005 grin . Mako. I am still looking the rules over and have seen actions like ramming listed. I plan on reading it more intently soon. Robert

My 1/600 Miniature Aircraft Wagaming Yahoo Group
link

ptdockyard25 Mar 2012 4:49 a.m. PST

Try my new site

Http://www.ptdockyard.com

Dave G
The PT Dockyard

surdu200525 Mar 2012 5:03 a.m. PST

Mako11:

I'll try to answer your questions.

Because there are no turns, there is clearly an advantage to being able to play your cards quickly. One of the reasons I tell folks to play the game three times before forming an opinion is that first time players try to play cards at a frenetic pace and lose sight of maneuver and firepower. You get comments like "marathon dice rolling" that was posted on the NarrowSeas list. After a couple of games, people settle into a rapid, but controlled pace.

Remember that I wasn't trying to represent the stealth phase of coastal actions. When critics say it has no period feel, I'll agree that you don't get the sense of laying in wait for a convoy to come along. There are some rules associated with scenarios that give the side with better radar, for instance, a set up advantage. There is also an optional rule that makes it harder to hit a target that has land behind it from the perspective of the enemy, because the target is not silhouetted. So while it may not capture the "period feel" of the stealthy phase, I think it DOES represent the period feel of the "action" phase.

The cards themselves were designed to facilitate rapid play.

Movement does take into account top-end speeds of the different boats. I had to drop acceleration as it just slowed the game too much. To speed movement, movement rates are defines as "card lengths." A boat might have a movement rate of LL. This means it moves two long sides of the card. In this way, you rarely need to hunt for the tape measures that have magically migrated to the other side of the board. Damage can reduce this movement rate during the game, so a ship's movement rate might drop from LL to LS (a long side plus a short side). Different sized boats have different turn radii (also marked on each card to facilitate turning during a move).

There is no pause to resolve firing. When I am firing at an enemy boat, I play the attack card as well as any attack enhancements. I place these cards next to the target boat and get the owner's attention. The owner of the target then drops any defense cards he wants to play. The defender can then move continue with what he was doing. The attack cards have the combat resolution table on them. It tells you what you need to roll on a d10 to get a hit. This is modified by any attack enhancement or defensive cards. I might have to roll a 7 or better to hit, but I've played an attack enhancement card that gives me a plus 1 to my die roll and you've played an evasive maneuvers card that gives me a -2 to my die roll. If I roll an 8 or better, I get a hit. If I get a hit, there is an icon on the card (a little explosion) that shows how much damage I do. I get the target boat's owner's attention and tell him how much hull he's lost. He marks that off on his sheet and we keep playing cards. A player is not allowed to fire at the same target boat a second time until the owning player has been able to play at lease one card (movement or firing, defensive cards don't count) of his own. This throttles back the pace of card playing just a bit.

Weapons are divided into small arms, medium, and heavy weapons, plus torpedoes and depth charges.

Ramming and running aground are represented, but not boarding actions. Small arms fire is represented for REALLY CLOSE actions.

I hope this helps. Give the rules a try -- actually three tries. The rules are NOT for everyone. They do tend to give the players tunnel vision. They focus on their actions and forget about what's around them. Often, in the heat of battle, players will forget that they are trying to torpedo a destroyer or tanker and just get busy fighting off the enemy S boats.

Buck

Kaoschallenged25 Mar 2012 10:47 a.m. PST

Thanks for that Dave. I keep forgetting the new site LOL. Robert

Mako1125 Mar 2012 11:25 a.m. PST

Thanks for the detailed explanation Buck.

I really appreciate it.

Sounds like a good design, and quite fun.

Kaoschallenged25 Mar 2012 12:13 p.m. PST

Thanks too Buck for taking the time to explain.I look forward to trying them out. Robert

Sundance25 Mar 2012 3:06 p.m. PST

Played it a couple of times – it was fun. As mentioned above, not for the slow thinking, though. We did find that we had to stop the game to resolve combats, then restart. kind of interrupted the flow somewhat.

Kaoschallenged26 Mar 2012 1:48 a.m. PST

Sounds like it will be nice change of pace from the regular types of games grin. Robert

Joep123 Supporting Member of TMP26 Mar 2012 6:45 p.m. PST

I just purchased the rules from Wargam Vault this evening after reading these posts.
I have played the game once at "Barrage" a local game convention and enjoyed it, although it took some getting used to the quick pace and we played just one game.
I have a good collection of 1/600 scale ships in which we played the Flaklighter rules.
We had a good time with that, but what drew me to the Quick and the Dead, was the style of play.
And having met Buck in person.
Looking forward to running a few games for my friends.
Joe

Kaoschallenged27 Mar 2012 12:08 p.m. PST

Thanks for all the input so far everyone thumbs up . Robert

Kaoschallenged29 Mar 2012 10:26 a.m. PST

Are there any other sites other then Buck's with scenarios,Ect? Robert

Kaoschallenged30 Mar 2012 12:09 p.m. PST

There are some nice photos and a review here,
link

Robert

My 1/600 Miniature Aircraft Wagaming Yahoo Group
link

surdu200531 Mar 2012 6:48 a.m. PST

Robert:

Thanks for the link to the nice review of The Quick and the Dead.

Buck

Joe Legan31 Mar 2012 3:57 p.m. PST

I bought it a year ago ( based on the above review if I remember)and it is certainly different. It is absolutly fast paced and I would agree that players ( at least I ) tended to get tunnel vision. Big thing for me is the opportunity for solo play which is essentially impossible with this system.
Not for me but other folks may like it.

Joe

Kaoschallenged31 Mar 2012 9:14 p.m. PST

"Thanks for the link to the nice review of The Quick and the Dead"

You are most welcome Buck grin. Robert

Kaoschallenged01 Apr 2012 3:28 p.m. PST

"Big thing for me is the opportunity for solo play which is essentially impossible with this system."

But it can be done? And if so what could be done to make it work? I am a solo player and would love some home rules.ect. Robert

My 1/600 Miniature Aircraft Wagaming Yahoo Group
link

surdu200502 Apr 2012 2:34 a.m. PST

While I (of course) am a fan of the rules, I can't see how you might apply it to solo gaming. Perhaps others have some ideas.

Buck

Mako1102 Apr 2012 2:55 a.m. PST

Play like WoW, and draw three cards.

Your NPC "opponent" does the same, and places those facedown. They are played in the order drawn.

You get to play yours, as desired.

Joe Legan02 Apr 2012 12:07 p.m. PST

Mako11

I tried that. You really lose the spirit of the game. There is almost no game that can't be played solitarie well. This unfortunatly is one of them.
I am not bashing the game; it was not designed with solitaire in mind. I play 80% solitaire. Hence I am writing my own. Have to finish a few projects first!

Sorry

Joe

Kaoschallenged02 Apr 2012 3:49 p.m. PST

I'm sorry to hear that as I won't have any opponents till I move back up to Portland in October or so. Robert

Kaoschallenged08 Apr 2012 10:58 p.m. PST

Found another review of the game here,
link

Robert

My 3mm-1/600 Miniatures Wagaming Yahoo Group
link

Kaoschallenged09 Apr 2012 1:36 p.m. PST

And found this mini review here,
link

Robert

My 3mm-1/600 Miniatures Wagaming Yahoo Group
link

Kaoschallenged09 Apr 2012 6:00 p.m. PST

An AAR and photos here. Robert

link

My 3mm-1/600 Miniatures Wagaming Yahoo Group
link

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.