"HISTORICON REPORT...A DIFFERENT VIEW" Topic

[Now, Bill DH me for my own good, although the FAQ says DAMN is acceptable.]

True, but there's also the rule against telling people to shut up... :-)

Guys and gals,

This topic went off track when nevinsrip omitted to tell us what he had got at Historicon. The true beauty of convention posts is vicariously enjoying the lead purchases of others.

So far as the felt war goes, as all gamers know felt is our precious. The ultimate qualification for terrain is that the miniatures can be stood up on it. I've seen all kinds of wonderful looking terrain that is unuseable for wargaming. Felt (or, maybe, carcarpet?) is the best.

I think John the OFM may have been successfully trolled here, a remarkable event.

Roger

I see Trenton as a typical Pennsylvania/New Jersey sucky winter day. Nothing terribly out of the ordinary or record setting, just miserable. So, my standard cloth (which looks like a Pennsylvania field in January), with patches of dirty snow is my intent. Lots of dead trees, stone walls with snow, typical Lemax Christmas Village stuff.

Moi? "Successfully trolled?" I don't think so. I don't think that nevinsrip intentionally set out to insult anyone. It just seemed that way to me, perhaps due to unfortunate phrasing on his part. If he *did* mean to get me goat, then he succeeded. This is similar to the difference between "model" ships and wargaming ships. You cannot play with a beautifully assembled, detailed model ship, and a drop-dead gorgeous totally accurate terrain piece is good for only one battle. I need rugged, generic portable terrain for a large variety of games, not a HO railroad layout of Horseshoe Curve in Altoona. Model railroading, building 1:96 HMS Victory, painting wargame figures are all equally valid hobbies, and all have outsiders thinking that we are nuts. Each has similar goals, but each also have different intents. Nevinsrip was judging by the standards of the hobby he enjoys, and I thought he belittled mine and overreacted. I can look at a HO layout and think "Boy, would I hate to lug that down to Lancaster in my car." I can look at HMS Victory and think "That's no good. You can't reach in the rigging to move the Marines around!"

Felt versus ..... uuhhh - well, what's the alternative given the following requirements:

1. Transport the gaming materials via auto, plane, or train.

2. Bring all the gaming materials to the table.

3. Set it all up in under 30 minutes.

4. Play game and do not howl when some 360lb behemoth puts his knuckles on your terrain and leans in to get at those hussars in the middle of the display.

5. Play game and don't cry when the 23 year old newbie spills his latte onto your priceless terrain.

6. Take it all down in less than 30 minutes.

7. Do it all again for three or four days in a row.

Felt, the handy gamers secret weapon.

John, I certainly did not mean to get anybodys' goat. I don't know you from Adam and have absolutely no reason to insult you or anyone else on this board.

Last year at Historicon, Duke put on his "Rings" game with the most spectacular terrain I have ever seen.

Sash and Sabre had a wonderful ACW layout. Someone else had a really nice French & Indian war set up with rivers and cliffs to die for. Another company had a Helms Deep that was beautiful.

These were more "exhibit" games rather than regular games.
This is all I was trying to report. Perhaps my wording was poor.

Duke is a professional terrain maker and Sash and Sabre has the resources of its company at their diaposal. The fellow who did the F&I game....well I have no idea who he was. Helms Deep was run by some figure company. These were all NOT one man shows.

There was a really great Alamo set up at this years convention but other than that I did not see anything to compare to last years exhibits. This was the point I was making.

Ed Mueller...There is no underlying assumption. Stop reading into what I write. Since, as I have stated, I DO NOT GAME, I have no interest in attracting new gamers. Therefore, your point is moot.

Does anybody actually read what people post or do they just skim and assume what they like?

But not you, John. I don't want to get into it with you again LOL LOL.............BILL

Duke is a professional terrain maker and Sash and Sabre has the resources of its company at their diaposal. The fellow who did the F&I gam....well I have no idea who he was. Helms Deep was run by some figure company. These were all NOT one man shows.
There was a really great Alamo set up at this years convention but other than that I did not see anything to compare to last years exhibits.

The Helms Deep game you saw was probably the one put on by Time Machine miniatures and built by the peerless Jim Corless.

The Alamo was mine, I suspect -- Friday morning or Saturday afternoon? If so, thanks -- it was a product of three McBrides working over several years.

Nevinsrip - regarding the Sash and Saber game and
having the company's resources at the disposal of
those organizing the game...it's pretty much a one-
man show, although Chris usually has help in the set-
up and take-down. Would you believe the games he
runs at his home look just as, if not more, impressive ?

John OFM - I directed a friend to your game (he found
it fairly easily) and would like you to know he had a
great time. Many compliments about the GM'ing, as
well. He's an old F&IW fan.

Jeez - what a load of posts over a load of old trollop.

For what its worth I played a participation game at a British Con a few years ago. It was a Vietnam 15mm game and looked superb with excellent figures and terrain, featuring all sorts.

It however played about as exciting as an Ewoks Genitialia. It took about an hour to come around to my second game turn. In the end I was so bored that I went and played another game after this turn which had decent figures but limited scenary. I played it within an hour and it provoked my interest in that particular range as well as being highly enjoyable. I came back to the vietnam table and guess what, nothing had happend and it still wasn't my turn yet. (All I had done in this three hour peroid was landed my helicopter) An hour later it was destroyed by a round from a tank. (So four hours to turn a helicopter once, land it and watch it get blown up)

Needless to say I did not rush out and buy 15mm Vietnam figures the next day.

If I play a game at a con and I have a good time, I don't care if the scenary is made out egg cartons or by an Oscar winning sculptor. As long as everyone has a good laugh and keeps a friendly spirit that's fine with me.

No comments about Ewoks please.

It did bother me somewhat when a number of the "anti-feltists" here posted about tables with "felt and a few sparse hills on it"-- these two things are NOT mutually inclusive! Why is it to be inferred that having a felt table covering necessarily means crappy scenery as well? What about felt that has been painted and flocked, with custom built hills, rivers, tree stands, fences, and scratch built houses on it? Is THAT less desirable/attractive than modular terrain? I find both to be equally inspiring as a "draw" for new players, with a slight edge going to the former for ease of storage, transportation, and re-usage...

Cost to Gamer to play in unlimited HMGS-East Convention
$10.00 (if member preregisted)

Cost to Gamemaster to get into HMGS-East Conventions
Zero Dollars

Cost to attend the largest Historical Miniature Game Convention in the Free World
Priceless.
VR
James Mattes

Hear, hear!!

Azantihighlightning,

I think the problem you ran into was the rule set (or too many players), certainly not too much terrain. I've been in games like that and know what you're saying.

It is because of silliness like this(arguing about terrain for cryin' out loud) that I have all but abandoned historical gamin in favour of Warhammer. Oh sure, there are the odd argument over the rules, but this can be sorted out with a quick call to the Rulez Boyz at GW. See that is another thing, GW actually SUPPORTS its hobby, unlike most historical companies which are happy to just take your money and forget about you!

Also, I find Warhammer is FUN! Something I hadn't had playing historical games in a LONG time.

I'm not saying that my choice is right and yours is wrong, but you have managed to bring yet another reason I left to the fore. Also, waaaaaaaaay back at the start of the post the 'greying of the hobby' was mentioned...well I can tell you from experience a LOT more young people play Warhammer than historicals AND there are a large number of women and girls playing Warhammer and NOT historicals. I would say that THIS more than anything bodes ill for historical miniature gaming in the future...

Tabernac,

There are some gems on the historical side of gaming that appeal to me (long time gamer) or might to a GW'd type player I think:

Take a look at "Trench Wars". I was suprised how well written the rules were (better than most historicals and certainly better than...40k) yet it plays quickly and I really get a sense of gaming in that period. ie: R-E-S-P-E-C-T the Heavy Machine Gun! It's also supported (truly supported) by the designer of the game, there is an ongoing campaign (Verdun 1916) and it's fun for me.

There is also "Flames of War" which is based on 40K. They seem to be trying to become the "GW of minitures gaming" for sure. This game is quick and fun to play.

Of course, you noted Warhammer which usually means Warhammer Fantasy Battle. Now Warhammer ANCIENT Battles is a supported game by GW as they release supplements (assuming you were using "support" for "new releases") and it's for a period of gaming with more miniatures available than all of Fantasy gaming miniatures combined. Here is where I THANK GOD for Jervis Johnson and WAB. A fun game to use and field my "ancient" toy soldiers. So therefore, since it's a Warhammer game, I think I'm agreeing with you. :)

Regarding the greying of the hobby' as well, I can tell you form experience that a LOT of young players (women too) regularly play Warhammer Ancient Battles. That game seems to be a great cross over for historicals. Now it's up to the historical game companies to learn how to design games and market themselves!

I think historicals will always trail fantasy/sci-fi gaming with young players simply because the advertising market for Fantasy/Sci-Fi stuff (including movies) is so much larger.

Back on topic(?) the HMGS cons are fun. Since the GMs are volunteers, it's tough to know which games can be "fun" to play. At least you'd get a sense that if a game is scheduled to play over 4 hours, it MIGHT be somewhat...complex. Note that I don't believe complex=better game. It's usually the opposite, IME. I'll admit I stick to GMing Trench Wars and will look for and consider playing any game with "Warhammer" in it such as Warhammer Napoleonics, etc at the HMGS-East cons. At least I know what to expect.

Best Regards,

Bill White

Funny how things differ for different people.

I have personally seen more arguments in one 40K or WH tourney than I have in 3 years and several cons with my local historicals group. I have even known people to not accept rulings by the Rulez Boyz.

And, if having a number to call is the only form of support, then you had best point that finger back at pretty much every other company, be they historical , sci-fi, fantasy, etc. Most historicals, sci-fi, etc companies can be reached via the internet with questions, etc. GW is about the only one out there to my knowledge that has a call center for their games. I submit its because in my experience GW players quite often need it (see above paragraph), but thats another thread....

As to the "greying of the hobby", if all of the doomsaying that has been going on for the last 30 years was true we would never have the selection of rulesets and figures available today. Its a red herring, kids. There will always be people who enjoy historicals, and others who dont. Most of us do both. I like my SCW troops and my Tau.

Good points guys! I guess i should have been clearer...I still love the historical period, but I found myself getting bored with what was being played in my area. Brachian, I am quite well acquainted with WAB...I tried to get the guys here to play it but there was ZERO interest.;-( However, another friend of mine is keen to play it as he likes the fact that GW manufatcurers the bases needed(no stupid cutting of carboard) and he likes the rules so I hope to give it a go in the near future. I also REALLY like how they have brought the GW standard of production to the historical field! The rules and info books are AWESOME!

I think that WFB and WAB are GREAT tools to get people into historical gaming as well(I know that is how I started into historicals) but I believe that as a hobby we have to strive to attain the level of detail and 'glitz' that GW is famous for if we hope to really woo people over. What I mean is that you remember a great game at a Con that had AWESOME terrain and well painted troops...this is the standard for the GW Games Day cons, so if we can repeat this kind of detail in even several games at a Con we could 'bring them back from the Dark Side' as my anti-GW friend likes to say!;-)

Anyway, just some more rantings...take them as you wish!