"Alienating your market [Privateer Press]" Topic

Well, as with anything, it's all subjective. Many discussions have been had about what the phrase means, and almost everyone has a differing opinion. The fact that the phrase could be something misogynistic makes people talk about it. Talking about it increases awareness of the product and more people check it out. Like the old saying goes, there's no such thing as bad press. If your wife really wants to deter people from supporting PP than she may have a better chance by ignoring the whole thing rather than trying to get people away from it because she may be turning more people onto it than not.

I belive that the intent of the 96% quote was to show that women at large did not believe that the marketing was offensive. It was probably said out of exasperation. While that does not condone its use, I do not believe that it represents the beliefs of the company as a whole. It is very difficult to discern the exact situation. I think that a formal letter would be the best method of sorting this problem out- perhaps it will give some perspective on their feelings at the time.

"I belive that the intent of the 96% quote was to show that women at large did not believe that the marketing was offensive. "

I can see how you got that, but honestly it makes more sense when you see it that 96% of their buyers are going to be guys between those age groups, so they're catering to their tastes via advertisements and these "Play like you've got a pair" handouts.

I don't even see it out of exasperation so much as "Matter of fact". You want to market to your largest possible fan-base, and they've done it. They've even pulled in numerous (very vocal) females who hang out on the Privateer Press forum.

I've found that among the girls it's a very small fraction who have read into the Page 5 mentallity as something disgusting and sexist. It's something people should take with a grain of salt, but refuse to do so.

Archon --

The problem is the context. The first thing he said was that the primary market is 16- to 24-year-old males. Then he refers to his 96%. I think it's pretty clear to me that he's saying that 96% of his market *are* 16- to 24-year-old males.

"Archon --

The problem is the context. The first thing he said was that the primary market is 16- to 24-year-old males. Then he refers to his 96%. I think it's pretty clear to me that he's saying that 96% of his market *are* 16- to 24-year-old males."

See, you understand. 96% of their market is that age group and sex, so they market to that age group and sex. You can't deny that it's worked.

*chuckle*

Your last 2 paragraphs are the reason why I wrote what I wrote. I think that PP realizes that they have a large female fanbase, and wanted to flaunt it a bit.

I do not want to agree with you, as it would make the PP rep come off as a far less caring person. To say that you only care about the 17-2? agegroup is not something I would want to hear, and I do not think it is something that they would say. I think they meant it in a more general sense.

I could be wrong though.

Y'know, no one's answered this question as far as I can tell:

Would it be acceptable to say, "Play like you're white?"

It's the same thing, folks.

Well Meiczyslaw I don't officially work for Privateer but I am a demo Rep. I can't change the marketing theme. I wasn't even at that con. I can however say I'm sorry if you and your wife were genuinely offended. It's not in the company policy to aggrivate anyone.

However please give us anouther chance and please don't boycott the product just because someone was having a stupid moment. There are plenty of good players in the game and myself and many other Press Gangers ( Privateer Press Demo team members ) appreciate every single one of them. Please for everyone reading this don't assume that PPS staff and Press Gangers are generally like this. Honestly we're good people.

If you are really offended please email the frontdesk at privateer ikwarmachine.com with a full account of the complaint. Please don't cut to the chase with your description. I'm sure if you and your wife remain cool headed when typing out your problem that privateer will at least tell you that they're sorry if it offended you but our marketing strategy is aimed at that type of audience. Not aimed at offending anyone else intentionally. They just wanted to hit on a customer base that many other games missed. And as for the rest of the readers here please don't email frontdesk about this problem. If Meiczyslaw is serious then flooding the frontdesk mailbox will not get him and his wife the attention they deserve.

Anyway I've met the privateer guys I know that they just like us ( you and me included ) are only human and sometimes these things happen. Whether you're driving and someone cuts you off or I say something seemingly benign and it turns out to make my girl friend more angry at me than a well shaken hornets nest. We all make mistakes. But you will never find a more friendly demo team than some of us who work for Privateer. We'd like to keep that reputation.

Christopher Fowler
Press Ganger in Augusta, GA
hariliquin@hotmail.com

So I guess thinking Arnolds Girlie man comment on the legislators in California is funny probably means that I think your wife is overeacting. It does.

Qoute:She went into the conversation assuming that the company was just being careless -- after all, it's a small-ish company who just got started, and may not have understood what they said. When she walked away from the conversation, she was swearing War on Privateer Press and their children."

Now their kids have to suffer too? ;)

Qoute"Basically, the Warmachine rep said this (but not in so many words): "Our market is 16- to 24-year-old males. We don't want your business because you're a girl. Go away."

Thats not we he said. He said the marketting campaign of "Play like you got a pair" is targetted at a specific audience which incidently does not include her. If shes not in the target audience why should they change it? People take offense everyday to almost any advertising there is.

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree. I believe their marketing tactics are sound and in this case very correct. I agree with what they've done, and so far from what I've read it's worked. As a guy I don't see anything thoroughly offensive about it, though I believe that will differ from person to person no matter what.

"To say that you only care about the 17-2? agegroup is not something I would want to hear, and I do not think it is something that they would say."

Yes well, I question a lot of what's been said about the conversation between the PPS rep and this man's wife. In the event that it is true, the obvious reason for -why- they've done it has been thoroughly discussed.

Perhaps if this conversation stays alive the person who talked to the man's wife will give his final thought on what was said and speak in his own defense as opposed to a chunk of the PPS website speaking for him.

"Y'know, no one's answered this question as far as I can tell:

Would it be acceptable to say, "Play like you're white?"

It's the same thing, folks."

How do whites play?

Christopher --

I don't think it'll change our mind about the product, but the dudes at Privateer need to give you a promotion. You handled that exactly the way it should have been done in the first place.

Red --

And how do people without a pair play, hmm? Negatively, according to Privateer.

So that would mean that if you were going to be non-white in your playing style, you'd play poorly.

If that were your slogan.

Privateer Press has a female President. One would assume as such that she would find the statement "offensive" as well if it was truely "offensive to women" as was stated. Simply because you are offended at something does not mean that you speak for all women or that your assertion is even valid for anyone other then yourself. YOU find it offensive period. When you approach someone and make a statement that suggests you speak for all women you yourself are being offensive to women by assuming that they dont have the free will to make up their minds themselves and have a different opinion then you.

I know a number of female warmachine players who do not find it offensive. Warmachine has the highest ratio of female players then any other game being played in my area. The warmachine forums has a core of female listees. How come they are not taking offense? Are they not women?

"And how do people without a pair play, hmm? Negatively, according to Privateer."

Mmhm. You seem to ignore the Metaphorical "Balls-to-the-Wall" aspect.

That's a very obvious and well known train of thought, to be ballsy, no guts no glory, it's all the same.

Saying "Play like you're white" has no context that anyone would obviously find. The difference is reality, which your example blindly ignores.

Y'know, no one's answered this question as far as I can tell:

Would it be acceptable to say, "Play like you're white?"

It's the same thing, folks.

What youre saying here is that "like your white" is/ has been genrally known to mean agressive, to the point, or any other "macho" phrase. I dont think so. What youre doing is to substitute a word that completely changes the meaning. It is not the same. Its a cheap way of trying to justify your arguement.

The problem with the "Play like your're white" statement is that it has no.... connotation. I am not exactly sure what playing like your're white is. I do, however, know what playing "like you've got a pair" is. That is a really, really poor metaphor. Perhaps something like... well, I can't come up with a very good metaphor either.

"Play like your white"

Excuse me? How does play like you are not afraid, and play like a white person even the same %[ discussion? I understand your looking for another reference, but you have offended ME with that statement. The "Play like you have a pair" slogan is not a "play like your not a girl" statement, they simply used a phrase that people understand and sounded like it reinforced the agressiveness of the games playstyle. Your wife misunderstood the slogan. FINE. Your attempt to change it into racial issue to prove your idiotic point is perverse. Lets all give this man a well deserved round of applause.

Ok, like I said before, the slogan is subjective. I could take offence to it if I wanted to. I could say that it means that you're supposed to play like a man, because men are extremely aggressive and act without second thought. I am far from aggressive, and, if anything, I overthink things. So this could now be offensive to me, but I have more self respect than that...

Well in our play area alot of guys do play like their white, but we have a few guys that play like their Indian, one guy who plays like he's black, another guy plays like hes chinese, a few play like their portuguese, and at least four women play like they have a pair. What does this all mean? Not sure, other then my assertion that the game attracts alot of different people(men and women) and that none seem offended except the couple involved here and a few list friends of theirs who probably are acting so out of loyalty then any true belief...

Doom you are trolling.

This is a He said-She said situation. We don't know the entire conversation and certainly don't have PP side of the story. i agree that it was a poor choice to spout this here without directly contacting PP about the exchange and allowing them a chance to react privately This feels too much like a knee jerk to me.

Thanks,

John

So how am I trolling?

DoomOnYou27, he has got you confused with Meiczyslaw

Well John since they chose to spout their account and accusations here we have the right to discuss, respond and offer counter point. That is not "trolling".

If they didnt want reaction and possible dissagreement to their hypothesis they shouldnt have posted it. You cant make a strong accusatory statement like they did and then ban/moderate/accuse of trolling every person that posts disagreeing with them. This is'nt one of "those" kind of forums is it? The kind that only allow one side to speak and ban/moderate everyone else? Debate demands all viewpoints...

@Fanboy - I believe John's comment was directed towards Meiczyslaw as EnterRandomNameHere said earlier.

fair enough code red.

I'd say this was a trainwreck, but I can't seem to find the train.

Look, we're all sorry your the wife was so offended, but posting it here does nothing other than start some sort of witch burning mentality. If you were offended you should have contacted them directly through snail mail, or Email. There is nothing anyone here can do other than to join a simple minded mob mantality that this forum started off with. If you had the will and the way to post here, you could have just as easily sent them a formal complaint. No one I know was so offended by Privateer Press' tag line as your the wife, The girls just shrug it off to mean a pair of something else. So you posting this defamitory thread is no better that what was (possibly) said to your the wife. O n that note I have better things to be doing, like sleep.

Guys --

I think the problem is primarily that you weren't there. My wife went to the booth with a legitimate concern. Based on DungeonTraders' comments and the behavior of the folks at the booth (and that I know the guy wasn't Brian Snoddy), I can presume that the gentleman in question was probably Matt Wilson.

That means, guys, that the part owner of Privateer Press gave my wife the brush-off. If that's true, then it doesn't matter whether the "little girls ... should not play this game" bit is offensive or not.

The owner of the game was a jerk to my wife.

Thus ends my part of this discussion.

Good night, good luck, and good hunting.

First of all, to the gentleman whos store isnt moving product.. thats too bad. PP is a small company, and has for almost every wave release sold out of product, and is worldwide. When a new wave release hits our local game store, you have to be there when the shipment arrives, or the other 10-15 guys there might just buy up everything. I have never seen that for another gaming company, ever. The american and foriegn playerbase is amazing for a startup company who was thought up over a cigar on a back porch in washington. The demand is huge, the playerbase is growing everyday, and its not JUST THE GAME... our forums are amazing, full of helpful people who make noobs feel welcome, and official people answer rules questions on a daily basis. They also love Privateers mentality and business sense.. they listen to their customers, they care what we do/like/have to say, they are the little guys fighting for the common man who is sick of large gaming corporations jerking us around. A breath of fresh air. Most of our players are former 40k/fantasy players.. they enjoy page 5 because its bold.. its saying, look out large faceless gaming corporations, we made a great game, we have a better attitude and mentality, and we WILL take your players from you. so far its worked. shortly after origins, a wargame miniature reviewer claimed 'Warmachine is the hottest game on the planet.'

did your wife REALLY expect WHOEVER she talked to to say 'ok, despite our growing success, our rabidly loyal playerbase, and our effective markiting thus far, we will drop our current marketing strategy because you asked us to' .. i mean.. SERIOUSLY. if she wasnt looking for a fight, what was she looking for? why should he apologize for having an effective marketing campaign? Your paraphrases have changed, your posts edited, and i have to ask why? You probably never imagined it escalating to this level, and had to try and 'solidify' your case..

as for machismo, chest thumping mentality of page 5.. let me give you a peek into my world. i hate the mans man. i hate jacked up lifted trucks and flashy cars and trophy wives. i hate weightlifters who grunt and wear as little as they can to the gym.. i hate guys who raise their kids that 'crying is for sissies', and other such testosterone filled machismo drivel. i hate bud light and jet skis. and when i read Page 5, and 'play like you got a pair' i see none of what i hate in it.
like i said in my previous post, i came from a game where every time i played i dreaded it. the player/army/whining/cheese was too much for me. the rules favor one type of army. the company jacks up their plastic prices and dosnt care, they change rules and dont care, they do whatever they need to get their dollar from you, then go knock up your daughter and take money out of your wallet on the nightstand.. THIS is why i play warmachine, i was attracted to the company mentality, THEN the game. the rules are awesome, miniatures amazing, and players the best you will ever meet.

Do us a favor, go back to comicon tomorrow, go to the privateer press booth, ask for MATT WILSON, take him aside for a minute and discuss this with him personally. If you still feel the way you do, the guys on the Privateer Press forums will pay for your daybadge, no problem.

did you hear me 'call you out?' again, take the time, with an OPEN MIND, go back to the convention, talk with the creator of the game/marketing/everything, and if you feel the same WE WILL PAY YOU FOR YOUR DAYBADGE IF YOU DONT HAVE A WEEKEND PASS.

Anson Young, Press Ganger for Phoenix, AZ. ana_thema@hotmail.com

Uhh, just a quick err on the subject of what the pair is.

My girlfriend has a fantastic pair. She beats me regularly. She doesnt bother getting offended when she knows what it REALLY means ;)

I personally find "play like you have a pair" to be on the juvenile end of things. The larger problem, is that regardless of it's "intent" it is frequently distorted by the general fanbase.

Luckily my local group is all older, and as our stuff withers, the testosterone level drops significantly.

While it's great to vent in a public forum, it really solves nothing. The only real satisfaction and change you and your wife can receive is to contact Privateer Press (tenative identifications of Matt Wilson notwithstanding) and go over the situation. (or return to the convention if possible and ask to speak to "Matt Wilson").

While I think it unlikely they will change, they may have a more satisfactory answer for your wife's concerns. Returning after making that effort and with their replies in hand would be far more usefull and he said/she said discussions.

* As a side note, my wife was the one who found, and bought us into this game. I'm sure Page 5 received a smile, a pat on the head, and dismissed as posturing.

Well, if nothing else this thread has done WONDERS for TMPS's membership stats! (*waves* to new members).

QUOTE:
Y'know, no one's answered this question as far as I can tell:

Would it be acceptable to say, "Play like you're white?"

It's the same thing, folks.

END QUOTE

Well, I don't really agree that it's the same thing, unless playing "Like you're white", or doing anything "like you're white" has any previous conotations attached to it that actually apply to the way you play the game.

Example. If they said "Play it like you're Latino", they could mean to play the game while dancing Salsa, or with some latin music in the background... or play the game in Spanish. Let me tell you, if this game was geared to be played by Latinos, and ofcourse most Latinos WANT to be Latinos, saying "Play it like you're Latino" would be a fairly good marketing strategy. The latino consumer that wishes to be identified with his own self image would play the game like him or herself, and this would help solidify that view of the self that one needs to function in our society of peers. (By the way, I am latino... and I do play it like I'm Latino).

The target market (that if 16 to 24 year old males) want to be viewed as being capable, brave, men who can take on any challege "like they've got a pair". If you don't agree, take a stroll down any high school or college campus and check out all the strutting and tail feather primping that the men go around doing just to impress one another, and ofcourse, the ladies... or better yet, check out a high school or college football game. To a peer group such as this one, where "having a pair" is viewed as a way or demonstrating one's masculinity, saying "Play it like you've got a pair" is an effective challenge that puts them in the mind set of proving themselves yet once again... this time in the miniatures table.

Crude? Perhaps
Childish? Definitelly
Effective? Oh hell yeah

Is it telling you that if you don't play it you have no ding dong? Nope. If you don't play football does it mean you're not macho? Nope, but if you're gonna do it... do it like you've got a pair... not half assed... or your team will lose. Same thing for Warmachine. If you're gonna play it, play it "like you're a 16 to 24 year old male that is not afraid to launch his forces forward and show that he does indeed have a pair" because chances are you WILL be a 16 to 24 year old male who wants to prove to his buddies that he does have a pair.

If the coach said to the team "play like you're white", would it have the same effect on that bunch of testosterone crazed teenagers as if he said "play like you've got a pair"? Probably not. In fact he would probably just confuse the hell out of those kids.

So you see, saying "Play like you're white" really does not come even CLOSE to being the same thing as saying "play like you've got a pair".

Angelo (Who thinks everyone should "Play like they're Latino")

Meiczyslaw,

my disappointment remains the same. you and your wife were so "upset" about all this, you'd take it to a public forum for a nice Pp bashing, but you wouldn't get names of the individuals involved to make a complaint.

Mrs. M went over and was an angel. no prob. but when she makes such a bold statement about having issues with company demographics for an opening statement, she raised the bar quite a bit don't you think. she put the people she spoke to on the defensive immediately.

I played 40k for 15 years and never once played a woman. I've played Warmachine for 4 months, have 2 female members and have played 2 other at demos. so if the offending dialogue was so sexist, how is such success possible?

one of our most successful and well known Press Gang is a woman from California. she has some of the largest event turnouts we get. we've another in Kansas who is very successful. add in the female participation in my area, how can you explain all this? to suggests that the Wm tag lines are sexually charged seems only to have offended you and the Mrs.

if you really gave it a chance, you'd know your more than welcome and would enjoy the best mini game around. they never alienated the market. they just focused to their segment as any small new company would.

the brick wall. well, those who are part of the Wm family would all tell you the same: we'll roll right through it.

Greg "Snowdog" Thompson
Press Gang
Michigan
durbin@onemain.com

I showed this post to the six woman in our gaming group.

It’s interesting that they dismissed the opening statement as a farce. We all play Warmachine and they’ve never been insulted by its marketing or rules book. One of them (Suzan) is 5ft nothing as well. And she tells me that to feel upset at anything as silly as this is just a plain waste of time. At 5ft your short, fact of life. The other interesting thing is that more than anything they found the fact that Meiczyslaw constantly refers to his wife as ‘The wife’ more demeaning than anything else. By not using her name he takes away her identity and reduces her to nothing more than ‘His wife’. Bernie, my wife, and Suzan (our 5ft female player), found this the most insulting line of all ‘Now, the wife is five-foot-nothing, so she's been a "little girl" most of her life’ I’ve been warned of the consequences ever using a line like that.

Their final opinion is that a game should not be buried due to the hearsay of one individual. This really is a case of one man airing his view on a public forum, and judging by the opening line, it was tailored from the start to try and create a boycott of Warmachine products. You should have attempted to get an official response through proper channels first.

Maybe the rep was having a bad day.

Maybe he had just had some bad news.

Maybe one of his loved ones was in a bad way and he was more irritable than usual.

Maybe your wife’s body language stated that she was out for a fight.

Maybe he’s a tactless individual and he should be reprimanded for his part in this.

Maybe you overreacted didn’t get what you wanted and now you want blood.

Maybe you’re telling the truth and they did say what you say they said.

Maybe you have an axe to grind and are lying.

Maybe there are to many maybes and we will never know the truth.

In the end it’s not worth declaring War on a company, all its employees and their children, because of what you and your wife perceived happened at the convention. They really aren’t bad people and one mans stupidity shouldn’t cost them as dearly as this. They have families and they need an income. The product is great and is reasonably priced. I for one will not boycott a product on the words of one mans account of what happened at a convention without further proof. Even if true, I would still want to know if this is the companies official attitude or if it’s a case of the rep being out of line? Judging by the reply from one of the Pressgangers this is not the case and he feels that the company would never react like this.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

Just let it die folks. We are the ones maintianing this thread and the original thread. Basically all we're doing now is proving the guy right by flaming his thread. Just let it go. If he really wants satisfaction from this he'll need to either email the frontdesk or just not deal with Privateer.

At this point it doesn't matter if the guy and his wife really had that incident or not now as folks on this forum are going to read this thread and think we're a bunch of trolls. You know we're not. We just love our game and we feel strongly about it. Now lets get onto better things and leave the troll'n to somebody else's mail order department. ;)

I'll chime in on this one, as I have recently become 'hooked' on WARMACHINE (do I really have to use all caps? Is that a copywrite issue? ahem, but I digress).

Going way back to the original post: The disparaging comments made by the rep can be tossed into a huge pile of doo-doo labeled "All the disparaging comments made by idiot reps from all companies in all industries." Unfortunately, the population of reps is doomed to continously add to this pile until the end of time. I usually discount an idiotic blurt from a rep. The poor guys are usually overworked and underpaid. They don't have their own idea to market so they must market someone else's deal. Be forgiving of the poor reps. Focus on what they represent or you may deny a beneficial business relationship with that entity they represent; in other words don't let the messenger screw up the message. In my business, I have asked that idiot reps be replaced by other reps that were less toxic - because I needed a non-idiot rep to work with because I really needed what the represented company was offering.

So then, I am looking at the book and I see the slant you guys are talking about. Ok, so its probably not Politically Correct. It may even be a touch chauvanistic and perhaps even rude. But it is different, and the struggle to be different, that is the struggle to differentiate your product in a competitive market, is always a difficult one. This marketing slant we are discussing would take a bit of bravery to put forward. I am sure there were focus groups that discussed the ramifications, but they went ahead with it because the tradeoff of controversy and Political Incorrectness against the fact their target marked is exactly 12 - 16 year old males and the differentiation gained seemed to be worth it.

Product differentiation like this comes with some risk, and that risk will be felt, like we are seeing now, as a discouragement for female players. This is not a good thing. Certainly you don't need to do anything special to attract female customers in a game like this, but its probably unnecessary to discourage them. The game has female characters - Warcasters - powerful women! Why not offer that up as a interesting role playing opportunity for girl players? If you say I need to "play like I have a pair", does that mean I should avoid female Warcasters? This world needs more powerful females, not less.

Now, I am old fart at 40, the second oldest guy in our gaming group. What if the marketing campaign and rules said "Play like your a young guy, we don't need old fogies in WARMACHINE!" then I would be put off by that! It might even hurt my feelings enough to complain. Thus I fully acknowledge the complaints and feelings of the female consumers.

Be that as it may, I love the game and the figures, and it fills an entertainment need similar to 40K but is a LOT more manageable in complexity and scope and COST. I say cheers to Privateer Press for competing well against an established giant! You guys got my money and 40K did not! I'm probably not the only one in this category.

~mArK

I am a member on the WarMachine Forums. Recently I have grown seriously disappointed in the proliferation of juvenile postings on said forums and their inability to accept any criticism of Privateer Press weather constructive or not. Something that I am sad to say has spilled over into these forums.

Meiczyslaw’s wife deserves an apology. Based on what I read her concerns and opinions were dismissed. Apparently dismissed by an actual representative of the company. I find this intolerable. Weather you agree that her complaint was valid or not the situation was not handled professionally. The misguided support from the Privateer forum members in dismissing Mrs. Meiczyslaw’s complaint goes to show that they have apparently reached their target audience and mirror its mentality perfectly.

On behalf of the WarMachine players that are not included in their target marketing group and do buy their product, I apologize to Mrs. Meiczyslaw. Your concerns should have been addressed and you should have been treated like the potenional customer that you are. In view of how you have been treated I doubt seriously that I will continue to purchase Privateer’s products. I wonder how my wife and daughter would have been treated if they were to voice a similar concern?

03

Yeah, I was right, you don't get person two. Person two doesn't care if he/she is offending 4% or 100%. By wandering up and saying you're offended, you're saying that you think person two did something wrong and you would like them to change it. Person two does not agree with your POV or they would not have done the offending item to begin with. Person two *will not* try to see things from your shoes -- there is no reason to. If they do, they have become a sellout.

The original post of the story loses it's credibility to me. It makes a quote out of a non quote. What was said and interpretation of what was said can be 2 different things. Most people know the staff at Privateer Press and they have been nothing but kind and courteous to everyone. As for offense in the slogan, why not ask the President of the company, after all she is a woman. (who's doing a hell of job with this company)

Your post has its obvious slant in the way your present it.

Meiczyslaw:

Perhaps your wife "whats her name". Should develope the skill of formulating and asking questions. One in particular. What did you mean by that? It works wonders for getting clear and defined explanations of statements made in the heat of the moment. It might even spare harm to those who don't deserve it. It seems people don't understand any more that it is not an insult unless it was intended as such.

"As for offense in the slogan, why not ask the President of the company, after all she is a woman. (who's doing a hell of job with this company)"

I beleive she tried and the offending male representative cut into and took over the conversation. This just goes to show that not only did he not have any respect for Mrs. Meiczyslaw, but also the President of the company he either partly owns or works for. Actually it shows a total disregard for women in general.

03

QUOTE: First off, the flyers in question are not posters. They're handouts. They come in 8.5x11 form, printed on a tan/beige/off-white paper. I'm surprised if you haven't seen them -- they were common as dirt here. At the moment, only one store here 'bouts still has them, and they're in a box on the wall next to the product. Apparently, many of the offending quotes have been lifted from the rulebook -- a couple have been mentioned already. ENDQUOTE

Just double checked all PP official handouts I was given back in May and only found the things I had mentioned earlier. I believe these flyers are something made by someone local or something that was dropped before it even hit full circulation if it was from PP. This really doesn't help anything said at the con but clears up one part of the offending story.

QUOTE: Secondly, I did leave out the wife's side of the conversation. Let's see if I can remember it ...

Her: "I just wanted to talk to you about your marketing campaign. Do you know it's offensive to women?"

Him: "Our market ...

Her: "That's no excuse. I'm a woman, and I game."

HIm: 96% quote

Her: "It's a small percentage, but it's still *there*."

Him: not gonna change marketing

At this point, the wife stalks off -- he's not really addressing her concerns at all. Instead of addressing her core complaint, he's telling her that her compaint is not important. I think the key part of the exchange is the "That's no excuse..." being answered by the 96% quote. At that moment, he's telling her that she doesn't matter to him, or (because he uses "we") Privateer Press. ENDQUOTE

If this IS the discussion verbatum, I'll gladly apologize also. This interaction does come off as uncaring and unprofessional.

I feel I need to add that as you have written it, you wife does effectively throw the first offending verbal punch by interrupting the rep trying to reply to her first question. She has also said it offends all women which a) I don't believe she's qualified to speak for all women (my wife for one is offended by someone else claiming to speak for her) and b) has been disproven by the numerous posts about the girl players. I personally have corredponded with several and met at least 2 from the boards so that isn't just 1 person's opinions.

My wife hates all mini games but understands this company's attitude is to be "in your face" and slap people out of the stupor they're in for staying with a game company that doesn't care about their players enough to listen, doesn't care about game balance and increases prices as a regular event yearly or more often if it suits them. It is edgy and controversal to some, but it has worked very well for the year or so the products have been out. Anathema's description is true about stuff being gone within an hour of arriving at the store. I go to the same store & know the owner. The GW stuff doesn't fly that quickly.

I do humbly ask that you take Anathema's advice and discuss it with Rob or Sherry personally. Rob is the contact for all of the volunteers worldwide (of which I am one, sorry) and helps answer the "helpdesk" email problems IIRC. I've persoanlly not dealt with Sherry directly, but I'd imagine she would be the easiest for your wife to approach. I think if you can state your concerns in a calm manner without interrupting whomever you speak to, you'd get quite a different response.

Good luck, whichever way you decide to go with it.

Chad

From what I read the statements were not aggressive, or demeaning. But I'm not arguing with you, I agree I wasn't there and may be missing the subtleties of the situatiion.

What I will say is that Warmachine is, in my opinion, the best miniatures game on the market at the moment. The customer service and attitude of the staff has always been more helpful and polite than any other company, even though I live all the way over in England.

If you miss out on this game you are missing out on an excellent game, and from interacting with an excellent company.

I suggest that this thread is locked and deleted as it is nothing more than an arguement between two sides not willing discuss each others points sensibly.

Just as an aside I never said my fiance or I wouldnt play Warmachine based on this post- but I do think that if the situation happened the way Meiczyslaw says then it was handled poorly. He does make it clear that he isnt attacking the game- and all he has said is that they have lost his family's business and those of their affiliates/friends. I don't see him anywhere ACTUALLY saying that no one else should buy the game either.

Where this went off track was when palaeoemrus began to attack Meiczyslaw and his wife to defend PP against the "PC" thugs ;)

"Anyone being offended by something so ridiculously petty is almost laughable."

Here in the UK, we had a series of adverts for a "Yorkie" (thick chocolate bar) that included the words "Not for girls". The adverts were pulled off the screens after a few months because the advertising authority got thousands and thousands of complaints about the adverts, not solely from women either.

Neither my wife or I saw anything wrong with the adverts (harmless fun, in our eyes), but some did and voiced their opinions and got the result mentioned above.

Can anyone name any company that has a 100% customer satifaction score? I think the odds are far more in the no column.

It also sounds to me that 'the wife' went to the booth for the sole purpose of getting into an arguement. Either that or for some wild flight of fantasy that just because she demands something be changed that it will in fact be changed. (if that works then I have some requests for 'the wife' then)

The target audience thing doesn't hold well for me either...just go to their forums and look at the birthdays...most are above this 'target audience'

Personally I hope that she was brushed off. Hopefully she learned that not everything is always what she wants and that a company is not there for her sole purpose of being her pet. Get over yourself.

For the people who wont buy their products because of this....for shame, for shame. Use your own experiences to make a decision,not the ramblings and trollings of someone bitter.

IF anyone deserves and apology it's Privateer Press. 'the wife' really needs to get a clue on how life works.

You're just telling the story from your point of view. AND I highly doubt his words were as you say. Its just a marekting ploy. You might like to know that the Head Honcho at Privateer Press is a woman. And she approved the idea of "Play like you got a pair." On top of that, they never specified which pair.

It sounds like your wife is really over reacting to something very small. Seems like she's one of the people who gets pissed off that a manhole cover isnt a personhole cover. May sound harsh but its really not a big deal. I'd like to hear what the Privateer Rep. actually said too. I highly,highly doubt it was we dont want your business because your a girl.

Sorry, I posted the wrong name.

Thanks,

John

In the interest of fairness and charity toward all, I would remind posters on both sides of this argument to always keep in forefront of their minds the wisdom of Hanlon's Razor.

Never ascribe to malice what can be more easily explained by stupidity.

Thank you, and goodnight.