"Alienating your market [Privateer Press]" Topic

Actually, Smedley, no one around here seems to be playing Warmachine much. Well, there may be some since the original boxes of figs the local store bought did mostly sell, and he has restocked a bit. It certainly doesn't seem to be moving fast, though. It kind of surprises me, since I have heard that the game is selling very well, overall, and is fun to play (it has a lot of fans here on TMP). I doubt it's the marketing - think most of the gamers here tend toward RPGs or the Warhammers. The local store has not yet done a demo. One of guys at the store and I had talked about learning the rules and running one, but we never did.

CeltKhan: I agree with you completely about the female figures. It is one reason I have picked up a few blisters and a couple of boxed sets.

Oh, and a reminder -- this isn't about the rule book. I haven't even looked at it. This is about flyers that are distributed at game stores as part of the marketing package.

Just to make things nice and clear:

He was a . That doesn't necessarily make PP s.

He was rude. He was nothing like any Press Ganger or otherwise-PP-affiliated person I've ever seen, talked to or heard of. Their attitude was reprehensible, you were mistreated, and have valid reason to walk away angry.

But...

Don't judge a company based off of one encounter. Waaay back in my days of 40k (back when the game was cooler and the company actually gave a damn) I had an early experience with an Outrider who treated me like crap and yelled at my girlfriend for flipping through a rulebook, even though it clearly said, "Store Copy" on the front. I was disgruntled, but by the time I had seen a game being played and actually spoken to some 40k players I realized the guy was way off base and was not representative of the way GW treated it's customers (at least 7 years ago, anyway).

Smedley

Maybe I shouldn't comment, but I'm finding the whole concept of "Be a real man! Play our game, if you got the balls for it" kind of pathetic to start with. It would be very hard to convince me that that approach attracts as many as it drives off. Of course, we had anti-media manipulation courses in high school in my day, maybe thats all gone now, and kids are much more susceptible to the threat of being called wussy if they don't buy a product.

I have to think there are better ways of appealing to 16-24 year olds than challenging their masculinity, but I've never tried a major marketting campaign, so what do I know? I find it disrepectful of potential buyers, but maybe they deserve disrespect if they buy into it.

I think marketing that inspires people is much more effective and entertaining, and alienates no one.

Meiczyslaw hasn't even looked at the game. Perfect. But he's an 80/20 customer.

Now it comes out that no one is reallyplaying Warmachine in mweaver's area(let's not question his methodology for determining this here), and mweaver isn't being self righteous or oversensitive even though he is. Self righteous over sensitive behavior suddenly doesn't indicate a self righteous over sensitive personality? In addition I can't see what HE thinks and have to guess(incorrectly he would have us believe) but he CAN see what motivates Meiczyslaw's wife in that anecdote and her husband in his post and it's sufficiently flawless a perspective to clear her and of suspicion of indulging in self righteous and oversensitive behavior. Sure. Whatever.

Pull the other one dude! I'm stupid enough to believe ANYTHING!

Meiczyslaw, someone suggested that you weren't being entirely fair or truthful and mischaracterized the conversation and put words in the PP employees mouths?

(/sarcasm) On the internet?
No way! No one's ever just drummed something up before! Why that's just crazy to think....It's in no way possible! Imagine the resources that would take!(-/sarcasm)

Are vaguely written accusations and various accounts of something suddenly to be treated as gold without challenge or investigation of any sort? Any further clarification is welcome if it is consisten with your original post but your opening shot pretty much stank of mud slinging. The implied boycott part was especially inflammatory and hostile. Way to tattle!

So what do the posters/brocures you've seen around "events" even say? We haven't actually gotten there yet. Is it the "Play like ya got a pair?" or not?

Like I said if it's a big issue for you then it behooves you to follow the proper procedures and write the company and explain your point of view to them as a 1st option. Deal with the party you have a problem with as high up as you can go! Explain that it was at a con and that sometimes people are not at their best and describe how it made you feel about their brand.

DON'T run out and try to stir up a mob with a horror story. If PP is rude to you in correspondance you will at least have a response from the compnay to back up what you say. If they don't respond within three weeks or so then you can mention that.

And until you know who you were talking to, can decide what they actually said, can find and produce testimony from people with similar experiences that have enough details to show that they might have something to complain about, and when someone from PP familiar with the situation has had a chance to respond then as far as I'm concerned NOTHING happened that's worth any real discussion.

BTW in Mcdonalds today I was served a fried rat's head in my Mcnuggets and they wouldn't even give me a new Mcnugget box. It's true I swear. Mcdonald's sucks. Don't eat there. It was in San Antonio. I was polite and they still gave me bad customer service. They want me to eat rat heads. I am a victim. They are stupid. They hate babies. The Vulcan Pope was there. He can tell you. Fight the power.

If you don't entirely believe me or agree with me then you are obviously on Mcdonald's side and you want me to be ripped off and forced to eat vermin parts by a big heartless bad corporation. Shame on you! They probably paid you off to mess with me!

PS: I eat like five times more Mcnuggets than most customers and now nobody in San Antonio eats at Mcdonalds because I am a frightening demagogue with followers hiding in every shadow. They stepped on the wrong mighty person this time! They are stupid!

(rolls eyes)

Meiczyslaw the bottom line is that you story keeps changing and you came HERE to tell it rather than dealing with PP and that does say something about you and your story whether you want to acknowledge it or not. To put it bluntly it HURTS your credibility. If this were about whether or not oyu like the game I wouldn't be here sounding off but this is mudslinging at a company and their conduct aimed at getting peopel to boycott that prouct on your say so. Your credibility does enter into this. You sound to me like a trouble-making protester on a crusade using the typical one sided techniques for doing so. IMHO

IT ISN"T CHALLENGING MASCULINITY!!! Nor is it saying you have to be some kind of macho jerk to play PP games.

How many times do folks have to explain, the 'Play like you got a pair' is meant to encapsulate the spirit of Warmachine as opposed to many other games out there.

You're taking this out of context. Warmachine is a game (and hence it's warcry a marketing strategy) that favors aggression, boldness, and guts. Not quite sure how to place your troops in light of a disputable rules issue, because your interpetation says you'll be in the clear whereas your opponents says he'll have you dead to rights? Screw it, roll a d6, call 4+, and let the die decide between you and your opponent's interpetation. And if the die says your opponent was right, shrug your shoulders and keep playing - don't whine, complain, insist on looking more stuff up in the book, etc...basically, play the game with enough guts to accept the threat of loss or even *GASP* being wrong once in a while. THAT is why PP says, 'Play like you got a pair!'.

Play with confidence, guts, and dignity. Conduct yourself like a grownup whether you're winning, losing, having great fun or being bored to death by your opponent (although there's nothing against 'helpful prodding' if your opponent is sucking the life out of a game...which, honestly, seldom happens in Warmachine vs. Other Games)

In fact, you CANNOT do well in a game of Warmachine if you waffle on tactics, don't know what you want to do, try to keep from getting hurt, and generally hope to wimp your way to victory (most likely by boring your opponent until they either fall asleep or leave).

This is why I'm asking that people actually go to where Warmachine is being played and talk to players or a Press Ganger (an unofficially-official representative of PP) before making judgments about the game or it's parent company.

Everything on this thread - includiing my own posts - is hearsay. Think what you like, but have the common sense to look into the company and it's product before setting your opinion in stone.

I'm a fan of PP and Warmachine because it's a good company with a great product, and I used to be a card-carrying GW fanatic (almost Outrider, as well). If the company was bad as the demo guy made it look, it wouldn't have such a devoted following this early in the miniatures wargaming business.

Smedley

@ Sir Garnet:

"PS Knockers is polite slang for ."

I thought it was Fun Bags.:)

The thing I see is a bunch of Warmachine players getting rude themselves. Some of you guys (like Smedley) make good points, but others seem to have the same over-the-top attitude of the purported Warmachine reps. You are not convincing me when you start attacking people on the list. I'll listen when you stand witness for a friend, but not when you start ranting.

Did I say I was Warmachine's 20/80 customer? No -- I was saying that *if* you made us like your game, we are. We are characterized by full collections -- if you ask us about a game we play, and our collections, the answer goes like this:

"Uh, we currently don't have ..." (It'll always be a shorter list than what we do have.)

I'm sorry that it happens to be your favorite game that I'm dissing, but it's true -- someone who represented the company and behaved as if he was in charge behaved inappropriately.

As for changing my story -- no change has been made. Details have been added, but no change has been made. If you go through, everything I've said jibes with what I've said previously. Again, if you're going to debate me, don't try to attack me personally.

Now, I will commend Smedley for actually arguing the topic -- and the argument that I shouldn't let one bad apple spoil the barrel is at least a good argument. Am I holding Privateer up to an unreasonable standard? Perhaps -- but it's not the first time I've dropped a game because their reps weren't any good. And I'll do it again.

And it's sad -- I've seen the figures. If I were to judge the company simply on their figs, I'd be buying them. The problem is that I don't disconnect the product from the company -- they started this with their marketing campaign, and we were actually trying to let them wriggle out of it. This *was* their second chance with us.

palaeoemrus:"Now it comes out that no one is reallyplaying Warmachine in mweaver's area(let's not question his methodology for determining this here).."

Well, maybe they're playing using their 40K Dreadnoughts, I don't know. All I can say is that the stuff is not moving off the shelves at the local store. I special-ordered some stuff (for some of the nice females), and the store owner bought two copies of the rules and one each of the starter armies. I bought one rulebook and one starter army. A store employee bought a starter army. That was the beginning of summer. Every other boxed set is still there (four of them - two other base armies, a mercenary army, and I forget what the other one is). The other rulebook is still there. My impression is that not many of the blisters have been sold in the last two months, but I certainly haven't counted.

palaeoemrus: "and mweaver isn't being self righteous or oversensitive even though he is."

As I recall, my original point was I found some of the strutting "we're cooler than any other game but - hey! - if you can't handle it it's OK to play some wimpy game" rhetoric to be juvenile. My opinion. If that attitude appeals to you, palaeoemrus, buy their stuff. What I find interesting is that you find my reaction _my_ reaction "self righteous or oversensitive".

“I don't normally repeat myself, but it's worth doing so here: the guy acts like HE'S IN CHARGE.”

Why does it mean that he was in charge? It sounds to me like that is a very sexist statement. Does it make him a pushy controlling man because he is out spoken man?

Why did your wife go to the woman to tell her gripe? Was the man not worth the trouble to talk to? Was he not good enough to talk to?

I have played in SEVERAL games with female players. I haven’t seen this man in charge attitude in all of them. I have seen it in some and it was usually the guy took charge of the party. Not just women, but the entire party. I let him continue because he had some good ideas. My manhood wasn’t threatened.

So far, all I have seen are two PC busy bodies looking for some to stir. We don’t know what kind of day this guy was having or what kind of attitude your wife had. So far everything is hearsay.

By the way, thanks to your whining I have decided to buy Warmachine. I’m on my way to the website now.

Yes mweaver. You are quite the psychologist, You've foiled me curses etc.

Now pull the third one. I have over fifty!

whoa gents!!! everyone here has made some great points but it has gotten waaaay off base.

palaeoemrus- you make some great points (seriously) but get a little overzealous and insulting and it detracts from what you say- I dont like to paint anyone a fanboy but you get a bit rabid in your 'defense'- tone it down some- Meiczyslaw and I have argued some good philosophy in the past and I have to say he certainly doesnt deserve the labels you've slapped on him save that he obviously felt his loved one was slighted.

Smedley- good show- well done, you have made some great points and have IMHO done a good job of pointing out that a great game can sometimes get smeared by a bad apple in the bunch

I think we all can agree that whatever the case you should always be as polite as possible to the customers whenever possible. That said I have to say that the fellows words listed here (albeit out of context) don't seem like they should warrent an execution. But certainly I would send off an email and see if you cant find someone who might discuss things with you.

This situation reminds me of my brother's first draft of our rules in which the foreword had a long rant about how our game was much better than X,Y or Z because of such and such and so and so. It was the first to go when it went to our editor as it comes off as too "in your face" and only serves to polarize people's opinions. Obviously PP has created similar problems for themself. Whether or not they care to address it is really up to them in the end. All you can do is let your money do the talking some days.

Oh- and a BIG welcome to anyone here who is new- please stick around, I think you'll find this community is great.

And above all... lets just go back to picking on GW :D (just kidding)

Smedley: "Everything on this thread - includiing my own posts - is hearsay."

Pretty much anything ever posted on any thread here - including zillions of posts on Consumer Affairs - is effectively hearsay. Doesn't stop us from listening and forming our own opinions.

I have seen Meiczyslaw posting for almost two years, and he has seemed like a sensible and balanced guy to me. I have no reason to think M would make any of this story up.

Jules --

What are you reading into my posts?

When I said he was acting like he was in charge, I was actually giving him the benefit of the doubt. If he acts like he's in charge, then he must be, right?

If he's in charge, and he's spouting a company line that they don't care about anyone who isn't their young male gamer, then that's the company's policy.

(I was accidently giving Smedley some ammunition with my previous parenthetical statement -- if this guy was a jerk to us, then he might be a jerk to his co-workers, too. It's certainly possible.

(As for the guys-talking-over-gals phenomenon, I didn't believe it either when I first heard about it. I didn't see it until I started looking for it, and then it's plain as day. Try it sometime.)

Ah yes. Now I'm a fanboy and paid off. Well played sirrah. Perhaps there is still room for a tin foil hat label or perhaps I can be protrayed as a sock puppet.

I'm happy that you've had lively and invigorating philosophical discussions w/ Meiczyslaw in the past but that hardly exonerates him from trying to stir up a pot of doom for PP based on his rapidly mutating second hand encounter with the their faceless staff at the San Diego comicon.

I like Warmachine about as much as any game I guess. I'm, more of a Wargods of Aegyptus and Full Thrust fan and I like playing Warhammer ancients when I get time. Warmachine is a little complicated for my tastes and it's got that big weapons, bug heads bug hands syndrome that I'm forever bitching about. The background is okay as far as such things go and the mini's look pretty nice though they remind me of the old knights catsellan figures for Space Marine 1st edition and Adeptus Titanicus 2.

I'm going off because I'm really pretty sick of people wrapping anecdotal millstones around the neck of company X and throwing them off a pier in these one sided kangaroo court sessions that make up internet forums.

It sounds like a PC to me. Otherwise why not talk to PP about this 1st via the proper channels? Why mention a boycott? This is a smear job and a malicious one at that.

"Sissies. Little Girls. Nancy boys...go home. This game is not for you."

Warmachine Prime Rulebook, p. 5. I'd have to say this whole chest-thumping self-aggrandizing section is aimed more at the younger end of the ol' 16-24 demographic than the more mature end.

CeltKhan makes reference to the sportsmanship section on p. 23. (Resolving Rules Issues"). That section is well done, I completely agree.

"(As for the guys-talking-over-gals phenomenon, I didn't believe it either when I first heard about it. I didn't see it until I started looking for it, and then it's plain as day. Try it sometime.)"

Actually it is in a few of my Social Psych texts as well so its not exactly unheard of.

palaeoemrus- there is nothing wrong with stating your opinion or even disagreeing with people.... but there is a polite way to do it and you've fallen short.

Gecko --

If execution was thought of, it would have happened immediately. ;)

I think if I said anything wrong in the first post, it was characterizing the wife's reaction as "swearing War ..." While true of the moment, it's not one that stuck around very long. But that hyperbole does give the impression that the women around here are going to go down to the local game store and burn a bunch of jockstraps in protest. ;)

Yeah, right. They've got better things to do.

The main reason for posting was that Privateer screwed up -- and screwed up in a way that drove away a customer who'd have spent a lot of money. (It's scary how much money we spend on games. I could buy one of Mongoose's writers if I wanted.)

They did two things wrong:

1) they chose to tie the right way to play their game to their customer's gender; and

2) they fed their rep their marketing strategy and let him use it to dismiss a potential customer.

That their reasoning exists is not at issue -- we're pretty sure that other companies feel the same way. They just don't have the bad taste to drop it on the table where everyone can see it.

Jules: "So far, all I have seen are two PC busy bodies looking for some [dawghouse word] to stir."

??If you are saying that I am one of the two, all I did is say that I found some of the rhetoric in the rulebook was juvenile. I was posting on a THREAD. We do that here, you know. We sometimes voice our opinions on topics raised. Zowie! M., looks like you hit a nerve, dude.

"PC"

There's that phrase again. Why is it that one gets thrown around when we talk about common courtesy?

How about we change the context? What if Privateer had said, "Play it like you're white?"

Would that be just as acceptable to you?

Welcome to our new visitors! Be sure to read the FAQ (link on our homepage), so that you know the rules of conduct at TMP.

palaeoemrus- I do owe you an apology as it looks like I am implying you are/were a fanboy. I just hate to see such venom in an otherwise intelligent post. My bad.

Meiczyslaw- you would think that in the LEAST they would have told her some of what she wanted to hear simply for the sake of keeping her as a customer- sounds to me like the fellow is giving people the brush off if they dont meet the profile he has been told they want. I would contact them for sure as maybe they have a mis-informed rep.

QUOTE: Just a clarification:

I did witness said conversation. PP's rep did, in fact, say the following:

"We're marketing for 16- to 24-year old males."

"We're not going to change our marketing."

"We're worried about our 96 percent, and not anybody else."
ENDQUOTE

I'm sorry, I don't see how this gets turned into "You're a girl. Go away."

Our marketing strategy is tailored to attract young men. Fine. We don't plan on changing it. Still not offended. You've identified yourself as someone in the 4% that doesn't care for our product, we'll continue working on the ones who have chosen to enjoy it. It seems to be a case of "mountains out of mole hills" to me.

QUOTE: Primarily, the brochures that go on the wall next to their product in stores try to cajole prospective customers into buying their game by insulting their manhood by comparing them to little girls. ENDQUOTE

I didn't see any clarification on this part. Is this referring to "Play like you've got a pair"? I ask because I don't know of anything in the main rulebook that calls anyone a girl or says you are not a man if you don't play this. There are plenty of inside pokes at GW games which is where the whole tagline comes from "So put down the plastic and play like you've got a pair." Of all the promo literature I've seen, the poster on the quick start rules and a sign that says "Warmachine Sold Here" are the only 2 I known to get hung up for display. Neither have "girly" references so I wonder if your wife was taking offense to something a local game shop had made & put up to start this whole problem.

Chad

Oh, and as for "proper channels" --

If you show up at the Comic Con, that *is* a proper channel. Steve Jackson was there. When AEG or Pinnacle shows, their top dogs are there. Some of WotC's bigwigs were there this year, and answered my questions about Avalon Hill's old products politely. (How many times have *they* been asked, "Why don't you put out BLAH?" They're a nice bunch of guys.)

link

link

I have been to the PP booth every day of the con and there are exactly 5 people working it. Matt Wilson( owner/creator ) , Brian Snoddy( Owner/creator ) , Sherry Yeary( President ) , Rob Hinds( Pressganger operations ) and Michael Chavez( local Pressganger Rep ) . Since I obviously didn't witness the interaction I can't verify it, but from the people running the booth, 2 owners and company president, as well as other upper management it appears that there was a slight misunderstanding on both ends. Conventions are rough, especially 4 day ones where you are on your feet for hours at a time with little time for breaks and talking to literally thousands of people and giving loads of demos.

I will defer that most gamers are in the 14-24+ range and male.

The two posted links above are from the PP forums and give a good indication of the Healthy female population of the Warmachine community, there are female characters and figure sculpts that are very tastefully done and IMHO are a nice change of pace from the typical chainmal bikini amazon top heavy type figures. Some of the most powerful figures in the game system are female. Privateer Press' top( and very accomplished ) painter is the wife of their lead sculptor, and their president is female.

In reference to rulebook page 5, "Play like you got a pair" is simply to imply that the game and the gaming style is aggressive. no rules lawyers, no defensive( sit back and wait till they attack ) tactics, no overly lopsided armies no whiners!

A lot of this has been said already but IMHO I really think that there is very little to indicate that this company or it's products are anti-female. As a matter of fact my female customer base has almost increased 50% since carrying the Warmachine line.

This is my 2c and merely is an opinion of observations personally made since carrying the product.

Ahoyhoy, yet another person from the Warmachine forums.

First off, to some of my fellow Warmachine forumers: Settle the down. Going off like that isn't going to help anything; we're trying to have a civilized discussion here. We should be trying to show the joys of Warmachine and Privateer Press to these people, not insult them. (Although I did go a little over the edge in my original post in the Warmachine forum, but it was all in jest woops...)

Anywho, my main problem with this whole ordeal is the response it's gotten from some of this forums members. Some of you are immediately turned into anti PP drones based on some hearsay from one person, despite the numerous testimonials from people who have dealt directly with many of the privateer staff (I personally haven't except from my interaction on the forum). I also have a problem with your wife going on an anti Privateer Press crusade. If she is merely informing others of her experience, than that is one thing, but if she is blatantly trying to get people to hate Privateer Press that is another. I have a severe problem with people not letting others make decisions for themself.

Ok, on to the subject at hand... I think that without what your wife said that warranted this response from whomever this man was it is impossible to asses it fully. Because of your first post and its very poor paraphrasing I am inclined to doubt anything else that is said. Even if this did really happen (I'm not necessarily calling you a liar, by the way, as I don't know you) I think it's being taken out of context.

From what I've gathered I think that this response by this man was just poorly worded. If your wife went up to these people just complaining about their tag line and asking them to change it, then I would have probably reacted similarly. With my interpretation he is just saying that they are not going to change their game based on a fraction of a fraction of the gaming market (The first fraction being women gamers, second fraction being those of the first that are offended by "Play like you've got a pair"). They are a great company to their customers, but I wouldn't expect them to try to bend over backwards for someone who seems to be already set against them.

okies,

irregardless, it's regardless, it already disregards the subject.

Steam punk, not techno fantasy.

Meiczyslaw, your credibility here may be accounted for by other members, great. but who (beside you) can vouch for the Mrs.!?!?

she went to pick a fight. she had an axe to grind. it looks like you guys went to corner a rep and did. do you really think the worker ant guy you chewed on would have the answer or words you wanted to hear?!? come on!

so much is missing here. honesty and the inflection of the conversation can't be accounted for. not to mention, the Pp folks don't even get a day in court, you buried it right between their eyes. WOW, where do you work?!?

your libelous post has already turned people off from a tremendous game. all we have is your word (and one other member) vouch for you.........?! I'm not so good with that.

I demo for Pp. never has anyone said "say this" in regards to marketing questions. we want players, thats what i know. so the implication that a blanket attitude is "taught" is foolish. maybe, maybe you caught a rep speaking "his" mind. additionally, could the girl have been a girl friend and not working?!?! maybe he was new and needed to "get his feet wet". if it's as you say, that's too bad. but huge shame on you for not getting names.

we have clear direction on image, expected reputation, the public and other game companies. you guys are missing the gregarious nature of the "PLYGAP" tag line. it's playfull poking at our competitors.

they must have really blown it with me, I'm 39. way past market wink I have members from 12-47 in my group. female and male by the way. I had a mother, daughter and son come to my demo Friday night, now I have 3 new members. if we all were so brainwashed (as you suggest) this couldn't happen now could it. oh, wait, you'll have to take my word fot it wink

the whole thing assume allot, it's too bad you decided to bury the "Axe" in such a public fashion.

Sd

I don't know you, and you have no proof this actually happened. I'll bite anyway

You can fault a company all you want for misinterpreting what they say, you have the right.. that doesn't mean you are right.

"Play Like You got a Pair" isn't an insult to my, or your manhood. (assuming you are a man? if not, your womenhood. There I've covered my bases) It is not a insult or derogetory statement towards women. The meaning has already been explained several times.

"We're marketing for 16- to 24-year old males."
Marketing to 16-24 year old males for a game is just good buisness sense. They are the in the majority of gamers

"We're not going to change our marketing."
They have no reason to change how they market thier product, no matter how much you and your wife dislike it. I am truly sorry.

"We're worried about our 96 percent, and not anybody else."
Of course they are worried about thier target audience, that is why they are the target audience!! I have no reasoning for the last part, maybe he was upset with how your wife approached the problem, maybe they really aren't worried about what you think. Either way... so what?

How you turn these harmless points into this:
"Our market is 16- to 24-year-old males. We don't want your business because you're a girl. Go away."

is confusing to me, I think you simply misinterpreted what was said.

-note-
I do not represent Privateer Press, I don't speak for them. ( check the forums, when they have something to say, they say it. Its admirable )

Person 1: "I'm offended!

Person 2: "So."

Maybe you don't understand the psychology of person two -- I do. Here goes, there's a certain segment of the population that doesn't like being told how to behave. So, when someone wanders up and starts espousing the wonders of not eating meat, or not playing with evil toys, etc., person two wonders what's wrong with you. Essentially, what makes some people thin-skinned and others not so much.

Chad --

Good request for clarification.

First off, the flyers in question are not posters. They're handouts. They come in 8.5x11 form, printed on a tan/beige/off-white paper. I'm surprised if you haven't seen them -- they were common as dirt here. At the moment, only one store here 'bouts still has them, and they're in a box on the wall next to the product. Apparently, many of the offending quotes have been lifted from the rulebook -- a couple have been mentioned already.

Secondly, I did leave out the wife's side of the conversation. Let's see if I can remember it ...

Her: "I just wanted to talk to you about your marketing campaign. Do you know it's offensive to women?"

Him: "Our market ...

Her: "That's no excuse. I'm a woman, and I game."

HIm: 96% quote

Her: "It's a small percentage, but it's still *there*."

Him: not gonna change marketing

At this point, the wife stalks off -- he's not really addressing her concerns at all. Instead of addressing her core complaint, he's telling her that her compaint is not important. I think the key part of the exchange is the "That's no excuse..." being answered by the 96% quote. At that moment, he's telling her that she doesn't matter to him, or (because he uses "we") Privateer Press.

I think the thing is that they've viewed that it's not offensive to all women. There are many women members of our forum and the majority of them seem to have no problem with Page 5 or it's possible connotations.

It has been my experience that just about any woman that chooses to Wargame as her hobby has more of a "Pair" than many of the men wargamers (I'm a man in case you were all wondering... or so they tell me). The women that I have gamed against tend to be ruthless and calculating field commanders that exploit your weakneses and concentrate in their own strenghts... have they got a pair? Most definitelly yes. Maybe not anatomically, but they do where it counts (and not just in Wargames... oh no). See, in my opinion, saying "Play it like you've got a pair" does not mean "If you don't play this, you're a Eunic". It means more along the lines of "Play it hard, fast, and with all that you've got". Somehow I think that the second interpretation is closer to what PP meant to say with their slogan

Second. It's only a slogan. I mean, come on... Is a little thing like a slongan for a toy soldier game so truly important that you'll make this huge fuzz about it? It's not like they're encouraging children to do drugs or engage in devilworship. It's just a slogan, a catch phrase. Nothing more. You don't like it? Don't look at it. You don't like it enough to turn you off to the game? Don't play the game. Do you really need to engage in an all out Anti-PP campaign? Probably not, but if it's what makes your day, by all means go for it. Just keep in mind that as you have opinions about what others say, they will also have just as well grounded opinions about what you say.

Oh, and if you PP Gangers in SanDiego really did say that to that woman, shame on you. You are representatives of the company and with you goes the word of Privateer Press... I don't think it would be too much to ask to present an appology. However, if this is only a misunderstanding, and perhaps that's all that it is, then perhaps a paragraph or two on what you meant to say could mend lots of hurt feelings.

Angelo (Why can't we all just get along?) :p

If this is really how the conversation went then I can undertsand your wifes anger, but your constant adding of information and changing of wording is a bit unsettling..

Him: "We're marketing for 16- to 24-year old males."

Her: "That's no excuse. I'm a woman, and I game."

Him: "We're worried about our 96 percent, and not anybody
else."

Doesn't make sense. 96 percent of WHAT? howmuch more information are you leaving out?

"I have been to the PP booth every day of the con and there are exactly 5 people working it. Matt Wilson(owner/creator), Brian Snoddy(Owner/creator), Sherry Yeary(President), Rob Hinds(Pressganger operations) and Michael Chavez(local Pressganger Rep)." -- DungeonTrader

Oh, my goodness -- sorry, Smedley, I know you tried. Your "one bad apple" happens to be one of the top dogs. :(

Nameless --

Presumably, 96 percent of their market. That's what the guy *said*.

It's all what you make of it from your perspective. My wife likes to play warmachine and her interpretation of "play like you have a pair" refers to her female "chestly" endowments. As far as what was said to your wife I'm sorry she had a bad interaction. But if she cares enough about it to start an anti warmachine campaign shouldn't she care enough to find out if that really is the position of the company. She may have just walked up to an idiot. Just my 2 cents.

Angelo --

The exchange might have gone a little bit better if the Privateer rep had made *that* argument. Then the wife (having gotten an English degree) would have been on firmer ground, and been able to argue the slogan on its merits.

Instead of asking *what* she found offensive, he proceeded to tell her that she wasn't part of the target market, and therefore didn't matter.

Like I said, she was actually prepared to listen. Privateer wasn't.

Actually, let me clarify that a bit. The wife did mention the "playing like little girls" quote, so I can't put that one on Privateer. It wasn't quite the disconnect that I made it out to be in the last statement.

I think your wife just got what she wanted, so she doesn't want to attempt to find something to contradict it. Otherwise a call or email to Privateer to further clarify things would be at hand. Cons are stressful for the companies, and that man could have been on edge and not able to deal with the situation as well as on a normal day.

PS: I'm waiting to hear what you think of my previous post.

Dangit, I left the "little girls" mention out of that dialog script. It's part of that first line -- she actually mentioned what she finds offensive.

Man this is good stuff.

Can we get the whole conversation - all of it that you can scrounge up in your memory? Something not paraphrased to the best of your ability, it would probably make this whole conversation more debatable.

Also, I'd also like to say that none of the PPS people were "Bad apples". They targed their 96% (16-24 year old guys) with their marketing campaign, and so far it's worked. They told her that, and then she seems to have gone off. It also seems as though people have stated your wife practically went in to pick a fight, and then got angry when they stated that it was intended for the largest group of people who would play the game.

It has been stated several times thus far what "Play like you've got a pair" has meant to all of the people at PPS and most of the players who have read Page 5 in Prime.

I don't see what her problem is.

I see two examples of unprofessional behavior here:

1. The "incident" with Meizcyslaw's wife and the PP representative. If you want to be taken as a professional - act like one. You don't blow off anyone, especially a customer, that has a complaint. Handled in a professional manner, you might win that person over with sincerity and convert a potential hostile into a supporter, or at least, a neutral. Sorry, but I have zero tolerance for any manufacturer with that attitude.

2. The "play like you have a pair" commentary in their book. If you want to be taken as a professional, refrain from smack/trash/bash talk in a written document and seek to give the player a set of rules he can read easily. Not a dissertation on what you think is in jest, cool, or funny. None of which that statement even approaches anyway.

If this is the measure of PP, I see a brick wall coming up. I don't play their games, never actually seen one, but I will be less likely to bother given this information.

If I may...

In my opinion(of course,) your wife came on a little strong. If the conversation went more or less as you said (without addition embellishment, etc,) I can at least understand PP's arguement. Beginning a conversation with such a strong opening makes it seem as if she is looking for a fight. Now, I can most certainly understand why she was irritated, however, if the game does in fact have a strong female fanbase, then therefore the PP rep would be understandably irritated when she came up and said it didn't. Obviously it can't be all that offensive to women if they have so many as it is (this being what the rep is thinking, and I can't really disagree all that much).

The 96% comment seems out of line, however, and I will agree with you on that part. Up until that point, and after, I completly favor the rep, but that one sentence bothers me a bit.

To be perfectly honest, if they do in fact have a large female fanbase (which I do not know,) their marketing strategy can not be all that offending towards women at large.

Bottom line: No Slogan/saying/conversation can satisfy every single person. Play like you got a pair is a slogan. Taking offense to it is childish. I am very sorry she was told that she "wasn't welcome" If she is upset about it she should have took note on the demo'ers name and reported him. Privateer Press is an exceptionally good company, and it has apparently been misrepresented by that demo'er, please don't slander the company because you wife doesn't like something. BTW is your wife a feminist? All the girls I know (being in the 16-24 range) would think pg 5 and "play like you got a pair" means exactly what it was intended to= don't play like an old lady hiding from a loud noise. The first amendment says that anybody (including you and your wife) can say whatever they want. Don't even fight that. You'll lose.

*joined forum to fight for the right*
AN PP SUPPORTER

"2. The "play like you have a pair" commentary in their book. If you want to be taken as a professional, refrain from smack/trash/bash talk in a written document and seek to give the player a set of rules he can read easily. Not a dissertation on what you think is in jest, cool, or funny. None of which that statement even approaches anyway."

That's the ultimate irony to Page 5. That attitude. You should read it some time if you find a copy, then re-read your statement right there.

monkeyboy --

I've worked cons. I don't find them hectic -- I really enjoyed it. Much better than attending, actually. But then, I play hockey, too, so the whirl activity is actually kind of expected. ;)

I'm sorry I ignored your last post. The problem with it is that the data could be irrelevant. We don't know why they play -- in fact, a recent discussion here about choosing 40K factions could lead one to assume that most players don't actually read fluff until they've already gotten an emotional bond with the game. Who teaches you the game and its visual appeal seems to be more important to most people -- and the problem is compounded by the pre-existance of an RPG for Warmachine. (Which opens up another topic -- does inclusion of possibly offensive language have any positive effect on your marketing at all?)

All I'm saying is that the wife read the fluff and found it offensive. (As does her best friend, if it matters.)

"If this is the measure of PP, I see a brick wall coming up. I don't play their games, never actually seen one, but I will be less likely to bother given this information"

Dance puppet, dance.

Archon --

You got it exactly right. That 96 percent comment is the one that sticks in my brain word-for-word because it was so out of line. It was the smack-down line, really.

And she didn't enter the conversation with an angry tone -- she went in with a questioning one. Like I have said before, her hope was that they simply didn't know what they were doing.

"That 96 percent comment is the one that sticks in my brain word-for-word because it was so out of line."

Was she expecting them to change their campaign slogan/line for her?

It seems sufficient enough to me that that's their reason for using it.