"Alienating your market [Privateer Press]" Topic

Those of y'all who've been paying attention to my posts -- meaning one or two of you ;) -- probably remember that my wife was a little irritated at Privateer Press and their marketing for Warmachine. Primarily, the brochures that go on the wall next to their product in stores try to cajole prospective customers into buying their game by insulting their manhood by comparing them to little girls. (I should have a copy of it in front of me to directly quote, but I don't.)

Now, the wife is five-foot-nothing, so she's been a "little girl" most of her life -- being told that she's somehow less of a gamer/person annoys her. So the guys from Warmachine were at the San Diego Comic Con, and she decided to let them know that their marketing is hurtful.

She went into the conversation assuming that the company was just being careless -- after all, it's a small-ish company who just got started, and may not have understood what they said. When she walked away from the conversation, she was swearing War on Privateer Press and their children.

Basically, the Warmachine rep said this (but not in so many words): "Our market is 16- to 24-year-old males. We don't want your business because you're a girl. Go away."

Not even a hint of an apology.

Because of this poor example in customer service, the females in the area have gone from not buying Warmachine to actively discouraging people from buying it. There are many other games out there, after all.

That IS weak. I'll drop them from my list. There are few enough gamer females, yes, but it is stupid of any company to purposely seek to alienate them. Phooey on them.

I was flipping through the rulebook, and they had a little play-us-or-you're-a-wuss speech there too. I admit I was underwhelmed.

Since I think you wife's complaint was a knee-jerk overreaction in the first place I can’t help but feel that she may have instigated the problem. It is not my place to tell the story as I have heard it, but suffice it to say there are always two sides to every story and blame is usually shared. I’m sure your wife is a wonderful person, but then in my dealing I have found the people of Privateer Press, both males and females, to be wonderful people also.

It seems to me a marketing strategy - and attitude - that alienates a fair number of potential customers is not sound business sense - but hey! - I'm not a professional game/miniature publisher/manufacturer, so what do I know?

I'd toss this under "poor customer relations." I doubt that many game publishers or figure manufacturers actually target their products or advertising at women. Dismissing them outright in this manner, though, is rather foolish because the market is so small to begin with; every potential customer is important because every customer makes a noticable difference to your bottom line. I know that around here, gamers tend to hang out a lot, and pissing off one person could easily result in an entire town not being interested in your product anymore.

Seems like a dumb way to run a business. "No thanks, we don't want your money, because you fall outside our target market."

To put it in the most cynical terms, all they had to do is make a little apology, say that they didn't realize that their literature was offensive, they would revisit the content and consider revising it, yadda, yadda, yadda. Listen to her politely, and then forget about it. She probably would have felt better, and it wouldn't have cost them anything.

(Now, most likely Meiczyslaw's wife probably would have gotten annoyed again somewhere down the line, when nothing actually changed, but that still seems better than actively alienating potential customers).

I play PP games---actually just WarMachine.

The alleged intent of the Page 5 speech ("Play like you've got a pair") is to avoid the rules-lawyering and argument-hammer games that I personally have experience too much in wargaming. There is a page (Page 5) in the WarMachine rulebook that goes on--in essence--about how people shouldn't whine and get on with the game.

The idea was to create a community where players who were interested in playing a game and not complaining about this tactic/that tactic/this army list, etc. was the norm.

I agree with the general concept. However, lately on their forums the philosophy has shifted toward a more literal interpretation of Page 5. If people voice legitimate complaints about marketing or anything else, it's becoming just like any other company's fanboz.

I'm amazed that the rep actually said that "x" isn't their target market and dismissed someone like that. Last I checked, money still spent regardless of who gave it to you. I still like the game but the philosophy is starting to take a turn toward the darker side. Hopefully, these guys will get back to their reported core reason behind their gaming company---to make a game that's fun and that people wanna play.

If I want to play with a community of rules lawyers and general argumentativeness (a new word?), then there's at least one well-established company that'll be happy to take my money and with an audience big enough that I don't have to convince someone to try this new ruleset.

Why does this remind me of the old SNL skits with Hans and Franz, the Austrian bodyduilders?

Considering my own experience with over the top arrogance in gaming from both players and companies I can see something like this happening.

However, I must add that there is a big difference between what was actually stated to your wife and was actually stated and misinterpreted.

"And the reason a company has to include female gamers in their target market is?"

Irregardless of your target market, there is no sense in bashing verbally or in print the non target players for any reason, that is not only dangerous in today’s high strung world but kinda stupid if you ask me. After all if ya piss someone off they’ll go on an anti you campaign and could conceivably reduce the money you make in an already tight market.

My advice if you want it? To solve a problem like this, rather than going on a crusade, talk to the MAN (no pun intended) take it to the top, call PP, make sure the person you are complaining to is in a position to care how you were treated. This should fix it, if not, there’s always the crusade plan

two cents of Rabbit!

I think their marketing is one of the reasons they are so successful, especially with their target market.

I'm sorry Meiczyslaw, but I think getting her feelings hurt over their marketing slogans is a little bit of an overreaction to something that is clearly not meant to be a personal attack. I seriously doubt anyone at Privateer Press was trying to intentionally alienate part of their market, or even to insult women. I think they took a gamble that most people wouldn't see the slogans as a chance to strike up a serious discussion about being a little more PC.

Now, their reaction was less than professional when your wife confronted them. That is plain, but seriously, did she expect an eloquent dialogue on the equality of female and male gamers and how certain marketing slogans will offend anyone?

I applaud them for sticking their necks out and being a tad edgy perfectly aligned with their target demographic. I mean, lots of their fans really are sold on the 'this game ain't for momma's boys' approach. I'm sure when the folks a PP sat down and wrote some of those potentially offensive slogans they realized that someone somewhere would take it as an opportunity to make a big deal out of something. They probably calculated, rightly, that it would attract more players than it would offend.

I mean, regardless of whatever that jerk plebian had to say off the top of his head at the PP booth, I doubt it was anything the guy was prepared for or even thought about. I hate to say it, but if I was in his shoes, I might have felt a little annoyed that someone would make a fuss about what, to me, is clearly rhetoric of the most jocular kind, totally unintended to be considered seriously. And from that negative reaction he may have let the smartalec inside get the best of him with his response.

My wife is 5'2", just under 100 pounds, and she plays various games too. I recall her one time reading the 'play like you got a pair' slogan and laughing. She then said something along the lines that I best never let her beat me at Warmachine or she'd have a great time making fun of me for it. She was never offended to my knowledge and recognized that the reality of this hobby is that it is currently male dominated and sticks and stones etc...

To me, this seems slightly on par with going to an action movie and then writing the producers afterwards to complain about the use of various hateful words and phrases, expecting to get a polite reaction instead of a 'are you one those crazies?' rolling of the eyes.

Also, I think it's less relevant, but interesting to note that there are quite a good many female players (I can think of at least 10) who post to the Warmachine forums. They are treated, as would be expected, with better respect than most guys are.

My wife is rather amazonian @ 6ft, and I've seen her toss a man to the floor when he made an inappropriate comment to her friend, and she finds the idea of "macho" men playing with little metal toys to be inherently absurd. So when I showed her the passage from pg5 in the Warmachine book, she took it as it was intended... as a joke.

The convention guy is probably a gaming nerd who takes it all way too seriously, and I agree that your wife should take the complaint up the chain to get some satisfaction.

Insulting "little girls" is perhaps OK with the majority of the gamer market, but I wonder what the reaction would be if the poster in question made derogatory comments about overweight nerdy little boys instead.

Yeah. It sounds like your wife just overreacted to absolutely nothing. Okay, she has gotten put down by some other people in the past. It sucks that it happened. But there was no need to go whining to Privateer Press about their slogan. There is real discrimination out there. There are situations where people are getting beat up, denied services, or just insulted because they are different. I don’t see this guy saying, "Our market is 16- to 24-year-old males. We don't want your business because you're a girl. Go away."
Maybe he was a little short with her (No pun intended). Have you or your wife ever thought that he is probably tired of the overly sensitive making a mountain out of a mole hill?

I just don't like there miniatures in the first place...

So not buying there miniatures for social reasons will be no problem.. I have enver baught a miniature.. just because I hate Techno Fantasy..

That's a very good point. Sorry, Meiczyslaw, but it's your wife's fault for the poor customer service/response.

Walk a mile in that poor demo guy's shoes. He has to 'put up' with people who bother him all day long. Then a non-target sale audience type comes up to him and says she doesn't agree with his company's take on things. What was he supposed to do---be polite and try to explain that the whole thing is a tongue-in-cheek joke? Heck No!

Now out of sarcasm mode: Any company that does not try to reason and perhaps even court the buying public deserves the loss in profits that lack of foresight costs them.

I'm kind of disturbed to see so many people who believe that talking to potential customers that way, female or not, is somehow acceptable or appropriate. Women who wargame are a rare breed, and I think they ought to be encouraged, not discouraged. I own the Cryx and Khador starter sets, and I've been considering adding to my collection. I'll wait and see if there's an official response, but for now, any further WarMachine purchases by me are on hold.

"Play like you've got a pair"

Got a pair of what?

Maybe they were talking about knockers? Or ovaries?

SirG

PS Knockers is polite slang for .

I have to disagree with Privateer4hire:
"That's a very good point. Sorry, Meiczyslaw, but it's your wife's fault for the poor customer service/response."
As someone who is brow-beaten at work on customer service, response, and total quality satisfaction day after day I find this reps response, if he did say those words as I wasn't there, to be on the wrong side of stupidity. While not having to kow-tow to any and everyone who complains he could have given a "we appreciate your concern and will address it" answer and forgotten about it. She would have been satisfied and he would move her along.

"Walk a mile in that poor demo guy's shoes. He has to 'put up' with people who bother him all day long." And if the rep didn't want to deal with people, there's always something else to do. Just because someone sells/makes games doesn't give them a liscence to be Captain Surly.

This attitude of "we're in the gaming industry therefore no business sense need apply" is over half of the reason the consumer affairs board on TMP exists. Who hasn't had emails blown off, credit cards charged for no product sent, unintentioned misstatements (or lies as it applies) told, etc.? But then people go out of their way to shower praise for getting a correct order in a reasonable amount of time! It another symptom of mfgs who should be getting some kind of business guidance (maybe buy "Business for Dummies" book). I have companies that I won't do business with at all because of their poor customer relations. Maybe some companies will read these posts and do something positive, but I doubt it. Sorry for the rant but I read this as I too await orders. Arrrrgghh!

Striker,

You and I actually agree.

Please note that everything I wrote in my post before I said I was turning "off" my sarcasm was sarcastic.

I agree that no customer usually wants to deal with Captain Surly :) Wasn't he a wrestler?

Its a sad day when a company starts to thinks that its own hype is real.

It takes a major-league moron to insult a potential customer. Sure, they should focus on their "core" market, but that's no excuse to insult someone who doesn't fit their "ideal".

Imagine if he had said that to the mother of a couple of guys in their target demographic. Anyone wanna bet those guys would have wanted to buy anything from a firm that insulted their mother?

Chogokin, I don't think anyone said that speaking to a potential customer this way is right or appropriate, regardless of target market. I certainly don't think that the rep. acted responsibly at all, based on Meiczyslaw's account.

I think the unwillingness to consider buying this company's products, if you like them, because one lousy representative fouled up and didn't handle a sensitive situation with the utmost grace is bit of an overboard reaction.

I agree that a letter at least should be sent to the company detailing the events so at the very least someone higher up in the company has a chance to make a solid written reply, and for the rep. in question to get a good talking-to about how customers should be treated with a little more respect in the future.

I would like to hear what Privateer Press has to say about this. This guy probably doesn't represent the true nature of the company and may not have been anyone important.
How often do you hear of GW tournament help disallowing clearly GW figures to be used when they are well within the rules? Its hard to find good help these days.

I found the original passage overthetop in this touchy PC world but it really shouldn't be an issue. On the other hand, anyone who is offended by something should be handled in a more professional manner than was described.

Just remember before you boycott them into the ground that we havent heard the other side of the story or any rebuttal as of yet.

"On the other hand, anyone who is offended by something should be handled in a more professional manner than was described."

Even if they're offended by something they read of their own free will? I don't recall any mention of her being accosted by anyone from PP and being forced to listen the passage being read or forced to read it herself. *IF* the guy was in fact rude to her, then I agree it was pretty obnoxious, but his actions are no less obnoxious than hers, so no sympathy from me. Anyone being offended by something so ridiculously petty is almost laughable.

If something in a game offends you, then don't buy the rules or play the game. Just move on and find a game that won't traumatize your sense of self worth. It doesn't sound like she was a potential customer anyway, since reading the passage was so traumatic to her, so no bigger loss to PP.

The rep's comment seems out of order - PP seem to have a few female employees - one of the mini painters, for a start, and a fairly large female fanbase, moreso than I've seen for any other game (maybe it's due to crossover from the RPG, maybe it's the female minis, I dunno). It's probably worth contacting PP and letting them know what happened.

As for the 'Play like you've got a pair' quote, one of the ad posters (can't remember where I've seen it, it was the same art as on the cover of Harbinger #2) has one of the female characters and two Warjacks, with the tagline "who needs a pair when I've got these?".

As for the overall tone of the game, and possible mysongynistic connotations, IMO, it's less offensive than Avalanche Press' D20 supplements, with a fantasy 'babe' falling out of her costume (always thought the Viking lass wasn't wrapped up warm enough) on the covers.

Having said that, the demo dude was clearly a fool.

btw, I've put a post on PP's forums linking to this thread, so someone from PP might see it.

I've gotta say that the Privateer folks at the con were way off base. I've been in customer service for years and you DO NOT insult potential customers when they have a grievence, even if you don't agree with them. As far as the doofus Privateer rep who made that comment... if it weren't for a "little girl" who really likes Warmachine, I might not have been introduced to the game.

I'm a major warmachine player, and I've talked to a lot of people at Privateer Press along with several Press Gangers and I cannot honestly hear that coming out of their mouths. They know their marketing, they know the gaming world, and honestly they have several hard-core female gamers. I'm not discounting what they said, but I find it highly questionable.

[Basically, the Warmachine rep said this (but not in so many words): "Our market is 16- to 24-year-old males. We don't want your business because you're a girl. Go away."]

That's right, their marketing is for 16-24 year old males, and that's how they -should- advertise with "Play like you've got a pair". It feels to me like you added the "We don't want your business because you're a girl. Go away" on your own, and that's simply how you read it from them, when in reality they were backing up how they advertised.

I agree that the idea of "Play Like you've got a pair" should be taken in jest and Page 5 is intended to amount to - Just play the darn game and enjoy it, don't shout "Cheese!" or "Broken!" at the end of every game.

Alright, you have drawn attention from off these boards.. never been here, never posted, i saw this on PPs boards and registered to throw in my 0.2..

Warmachine is the only game i play, in fact, i myself am a demo rep for the company.. I know 3-4 of the people who are at the privateer booth this weekend, Michael (san diego demo rep), Rob (PP employee, 'captain' of the demo reps), and Matt Wilson (creator of the game).. knowing these people, i KNOW FOR A FACT, that they would have said no such thing.. am i calling your wife a liar, no. am i saying i would believe Michael, Rob and Matt over her, yes.
Can you honestly say that ANY (and i want names and links if you do) miniature wargame company that markets to Women?? the last time you were in your local game store, what were the ratios of male and female? how many female gamers do you know in comparison to the male gamers you know? that said, is it at all feasable that PP, and other mini companies market mostly to males??
we have females who play warmachine, hell 3-4 of the demo reps i know (and these are only the ones i know) are female, and kick as much booty as the guys on the table.. we are not anti female, hop on our boards and meet some of the female gamers.. sure the issue of 'play like you got a pair' appeals to some, and not to others. you cant please everybody..

play like you got a pair appeals to me, after a year of play ing 40k, and the whining and complaining and cheesing of armies, it WAS like playing a bunch of girls.. ALL of the warmachine players i have met are the nicest, and most enjoyable people to play.. we are the antithesis of what GW players are (this is a generalization of course)...

if someone came up to me and said they were offended , i would really not know what to say. Nobody inside the company, or we demo reps would have ever said anything to the liking of what you claimed we did. Did she take it wrong?

*anathema*

oh, and Mlatch220.. did you talk to the guys? if you had this much of a problem with it, why dont you go talk to the guys at the booth themselves? i am sure this could have been straightened out without the one sided comments you have made..

if you didnt personally talk to the guys, your claim is discounted 50% or more to me...

making friends already,
*anathema*

"Play like you have a pair!" is an obvious derivative of "Sound off like you have a pair!" and goes hand in hand with associating the posession of a working full set of testicles with bravery or even the obnoxious bravado that allows a true sociopath to try literally ANYTHING with no thought of the consequences.

I'm sure that you've all of heard "brass balls" that are "this big and shiny" and other phrases referring to someone's daring or chutzpah. It is also sometimes associated with toughness or determination. "Showing that you have a set" can refer to someone who doesn't whine or complain or give up when things don't go their way but keeps theim aim and maintains proper conduct with dignity.

A less offensive way to say the same thing is "No Fear" or "Show some spine" or "Keep a stiff upper lip!"

I'm sorry that the rep for the game was rude and dismissive to your wife. I agree that that isn't good customer relations.

On the other hand try talking to GW reps at a public event about how tacky, morbid, salacious, and overpriced some of their figures are and suggest that their company is demeaning to women, harmful to children and the development of healthy sexuality, an exploitive quasi-pornographic display of lowest common denominator values, or even that you believe that you can infer a certain degree of threat to minorities in their subject matter and THEN let us know how THAT turns out.

The bottom line is that people and companies are kind of sick and scared of PC troublemakers trying to forcibly and letigiously sanitize all aspects of human life to their own political standards and crush by any means all who don't cooperate along with most who do. There is bound to be a certain amount of hostility towards people who seem to meet that hyper sensitive, self righteous, picket sign wielding, busy-body profile.

I don't know what the demo guy actually said that bothered your wife but I do know about the PP slogan (called the Page 5 manifesto by some because it appears with an explanation on Page 5 of the Warmachine:Prime rulebook) which is why I discussed it above.

I'll go out on a limb and say that if the guy at the demo thought that your wife was going to cause a problem for the other players then he was right to try and get her to leave but wrong in the way he went about it.

Telling the head waiter or manager at a steak house that his business shouldn't be killing animals for food and that the Earth can't support six billion artificial carnivore's who enjoy unecessary cruelty that actually makes them unhealthy won't get the complainer very far either. In fact if I did that I'd expect to get thrown out of the steak house and asked not to return.

"The bottom line is that people and companies are kind of sick and scared of PC troublemakers trying to forcibly and letigiously sanitize all aspects of human life to their own political standards and crush by any means all who don't cooperate along with most who do. There is bound to be a certain amount of hostility towards people who seem to meet that hyper sensitive, self righteous, picket sign wielding, busy-body profile."

None of which would seem to describe Meiczyslaw's wife from his description of the incident, palaeoemrus.

To be honest before this post I hadn't thought about how some women might react to some of their rhetoric... but it struck _me_ as juvenile. I have bought some of the figures for my own purposes, but reading the introduction to their rule book did not encourage me to delve more deeply into their game - quite the opposite, in fact. Yes, I am outside of their supposed target demographic if it is males 16-24 years of age. Male, but considerably older. So maybe they weren't aiming at me. Or certainly not Neotacha. I guess they know what they are doing but it seems odd given that between us Neotacha and I probably spend more on figures and games than any 10 average 16-24 year olds. Double income, no kids, major hobby for both of us = lots of $$ on figures and books.

My "claim" of what exactly? How, exactly, is my "problem" with this situation different than what other detractors have said? Yes, if the guy said what he is alleaged to have said, than it was way off base and I will stick by that opinion regardless of what you think of the "guys" at Privateer. Why should I care what a demo rep for the company thinks of "my comment" and that you're "discounting it 50%"? Discount it 100% for all I care. Nothing I said here was any worse than any of the other folks who found this situation disagreeable. So anathema, make sure to flame everybody else while you're busy flaming me. And next time, get my handle right... It's Mlatch221!
And sure, I'll make sure to jump right on a plane to San Diego RIGHT NOW to locate your friends and discuss a situation that I just read about 40-some odd minutes ago. Since I had the "audacity" to be among several people who commented negatively, I have no trouble backing up what I said in person to you or any other member of the Privateer staff. However, I will expect you to pay for my plane ticket. Pony up, man!

Oh, and by the way: since grad school days my gaming groups have generally ranged from 33% to 50% female.

"Basically, the Warmachine rep said this (but not in so many words): "Our market is 16- to 24-year-old males. We don't want your business because you're a girl. Go away.""

I'm sorry, but you very quickly lost all credibility by saying "But not in so many words". You just made up a quote that you felt went along with what point you wanted to get across.

I found WarMachine's Page 5 Manefesto and "open a can of whuppa$$" game style a nice antidote to rules lawyering tournament games.

The PP demo-rep should at the least have appologized for causing offense. And then have refered the matter upstairs to the marketing dept.

From what I'm taking from it, the guy's response to why they have "Play like you've got a pair" was because the market was the 16-24 year old guys.

From what was initially said, the "We don't want your service, girl" was added in to prove a point.

I wasn't a direct quote, it was just a made up quote used to try to enforce his opinion.

I don't see what's offensive about that, it would be like me walking up to some one with unicorns and faeries on their stuff and saying something about being an offended guy, and then expecting an apology when they're trying to sell their stuff to 12 year old girls.

It just doesn't make sense.

Well became a member to sound off!!!

Well after playing mini games for 15yrs and being a Marketing director for 2 major companies. I must say.

play like ya got a pair!
describes the game and all which it embodies. If you are part of the target audience then you will be interested in the game. which will lead you eventually to be reading the infamos Page 5. Upon reading page 5 you will either be hyped to play the game or realize this isn't for you.

I Must say I agree with anathema here Is what you are saying an exact quote or an exageration of a person already out of touch with what the game is about to start with? I don't know cuz I wasn't there. I will however state the president of PP is a Woman and there I am sure plenty of people Women included which take the slogan as it is intended which is a marketing slogan. which targets their audience. and whether you and your wife chose to admit it the world is a male dominated environment. I am not saying this is acceptable but when was the last time you saw a male dominated culture market it's product to a female. lets face it there are a handfull of girls or woman who play this game or any mini game.

For them to respond to her whining about the slogan would be to discout its market which she is not really part of. The reason they go to cons is to sell the game not respond to personal disagreements that would be a job for the customer service department which even know may be some of the same people they will look at it in a diffeent light when addressed correctly. I sincerly suggest addressing this to the front desk @privateer press and I am sure you will get a different response. Oh well just my 2 cent fo hardcore gammer.

PS my wife and our PG's Girlfriend like the slogan cuz they feel they too can play!!

mweaver sez: " None of which would seem to describe Meiczyslaw's wife from his description of the incident, palaeoemrus."

The "hypersensitive" and "self righteous" bits certainly seem to apply to the characters in that "description" mweaver and they would seem to apply somewhat to your character as well.

Bear in mind that the offended wife as portrayed in the in the complaining post did not speak of "juvenile" wording but of "hurtful marketing" that made her "feel like less of gamer/person" mostly due to her insecurities (by the presumption of her husband's post) resulting from her diminuitive physical size. Her feeling are described as "annoyed." Her husband describes her opinion of PP as due to their being "careless".

After her confrontation with the demo guy(about which little is revealed in the post and was not directly witnessed by her husband) she is desribed thusly "When she walked away from the conversation, she was swearing War on Privateer Press and their children" and somehow connected to a local boycott of the product by women.

The husband further weakens any specificity his argument might have by stating, `Basically, the Warmachine rep said this (but not in so many words): "Our market is 16- to 24-year-old males. We don't want your business because you're a girl. Go away.'

Not even a hint of an apology."

First he presumes that being "annoyed" as a result of one's personal size and sex by a perceived hurtful attack on "manhood" that belittes women implicitly entitles the grudge bearer to an apology as a matter of customer service QED.

Second he apparently supports her in her assumption that if a company is not merely "careless" and willing to demonstrate this with immediate submission and apology(accompanied by a promise of a marketing change presumably) then they are malicious and subject to criticism and organized public action(boycott) based on the "poor customer service."

Thirdly, at this point this is vague heresay directed at a wargaming board's audience and NOT at the company in question who can be reached by phone, letter or e-mail very quickly rather than unfairly pilloried on a web forum. We don't even know who they talked to or what was REALLY said by either party.

Sounds EXACTLY like "hyper sensitive, self righteous, picket sign wielding, busy-body profile" and "PC troublemakers trying to forcibly and letigiously sanitize all aspects of human life to their own political standards and crush by any means all who don't cooperate along with most who do."

The usual tactics are certainly in evidence here at any rate(outrage, victemhood, smear, rumor mongering via hearsay, publicizing the argument, characterizing the opposition as jerks or outright demonization).

It's nice to know that you game in 33% to 50% female gaming groups though. It established the right sort of cred for this sort of thing don't you know...

I'll agree that there haven't been any lawyers mentioned in the affair yet.

Cheers.

I'm sorry to hear about how your wife was treated, but I can tell you that PP doesn't condone such an attitude. Much of the reason Warmachine has the following it does is because of how they take care of their customers, both in quality control and customer service.

The guys you ran into were jerks, and if they did spout anything even vaguely resembling, "Well, since you (i.e. your wife) isn't part of our target demographic, smeg off" then they DEFINATELY aren't representative of the attitude PP takes towards their customer base.

Smedley

P.S: Oddly enough, I've seen more women playing Warmachine than any other miniatures wargame I've every played. And every time I or any of my peers have ever had any problems (i.e. customer service-related stuff) PP has made a tremendous effort to make things right.

My $0.02

Just a clarification:

I did witness said conversation. PP's rep did, in fact, say the following:

"We're marketing for 16- to 24-year old males."

"We're not going to change our marketing."

"We're worried about our 96 percent, and not anybody else."

Keep in mind that the wife is very Italian and *very* polite. (And I was very pleased with her behavior -- she didn't explode until she walked away from him.)

That the Privateer Press folks don't have sufficient command of the English language to express themselves without insulting half of the population is disappointing. (How hard is it to describe playing with heart?) That their representative was obviously briefed on their marketing (note that he's speaking about specific numbers) and that he's unapologetic bespeaks a negative corporate culture. Combine the two together, and you have insult.

Add in the fact that the wife is one of the early adopters* and 20/80 customers** that businesses normally chase, and you've got rank stupidity.

*In the minis world, the early adopters are the people who push it using word of mouth. If the usual early adopters at a game store don't pick up a game, no one will.

**20/80: slang for the twenty percent of your customers that provide eighty percent of your profits. If you go overboard buying minis from a manufacturer, then you're probably one of these. Business love you, and will figuratively kill to keep you.

Considering that the president of the company, one of the on-staff painters, and the company's self-proclaimed most ardent supporter are all females, I find this highly unlikely.

Further, several Press Gangers and many of the members at the Warmachine forums are female as well, and generally, the only people "offended" by the pg5 "mantra" are all males. Go figure.

And interestingly enough, the REASON most girl gamers give for playing warmachine is how ver NON-degrading it is: all the female characters are fully and tastefully clothed, although some (naturally) have less than others. There are, however, no bare-breasted DDD nipple-ringed multi-breasted freakish S+M wannabes running around the Warmachine battlefield. Several warcasters (the single most powerful pieces on the board and the de facto "commander" of your army) are female, and two of the most feared are Sorscha and Feora for the sheer destruction they can wreak. I'd go so far as to say that the female 'casters are more favored than the male.

I find this story difficult to believe, at best. More likely exaggerated and misinterpreted .

You linked to this on the warmachine boards. You've got our attention. I hope it's all you desired.

And as a final note: I don't care overmuch for pg 5. Some people take it too literally and either play with bad manners, or get all huffy and offended. To those people, I make a suggestion: read pg 23. This game actually has a section on sportsmanship right there, in the rules. Technically speaking, being a rules lawyer, a twink, or just a git in general is against the rules because YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE HAVING FUN.

- Khan

I know about the female exhibitors. There was a one standing right to the left side of the guy and offered nothing to the conversation. (She was about 5'6", and a red-head. I didn't get a great look at the guy -- the minis cabinet was between us for most of the conversation. I think he was around 6' and blond.)

In fact, the wife started by talking to her -- the goon in question didn't let her answer.

I like your debating tactic, by the way -- can't defend your side of the issue? Then attack your opponents. (I've been called a liar, and my wife's been called worse.) *Very* classy.

I apologize -- I should not have used the word "goon." The gentleman in question, perhaps?

The reason so many people are quick to assume you're being overly 'creative' with your recreation of the incident is because none of us could ever think of someone from PP acting that way. For what it's worth, I absolutely could not EVER imagine hearing that kind of rhetoric from anyone even remotely connected to Warmachine or PP.

But even so, I'd ask that you take a look at the company and it's game in lieu of the treatment you received from those idiots. PP is unlike any other gaming company out there, and much of the reason for that is because they listened to public outcry against some "other" companies out there (or company, as it were...).

They, being gamers and modellers, were all too familiar with being kicked around and mistreated as gamers in the past and have done an excellent job taking care of their own customers now that they're on the other end of the checkout counter, so to speak.

You had a bad encounter. Go to a game shop where folks are playing Warmachine and judge the game and it's company off it's own merit. Talk to Warmachine players, and ask them what they think of the company and how the company takes care of them. I can almost guarantee your wife will be pleased.

Smedley

palaeoemrus: "Bear in mind that the offended wife as portrayed in the in the complaining post did not speak of 'juvenile'..."

Nope, the "juvenile" comment was mine, however it does seem to have been enough for you to determine I too am "hypersensitive" and "self righteous".

palaeoemrus: "It's nice to know that you game in 33% to 50% female gaming groups though. It established the right sort of cred for this sort of thing don't you know..."

The implication has been made, a few times on this thread, that PP has no reason to be bothered with marketing to female gamers, presumably because there aren't many of them. I was pointing out that in my experienc they make up a solid chunk of gamers. I'm not sure what "cred" has to do with it. If you have a fair amount of female gamers in your group, then you see my point. If you don't, then you might want to try being more "hypersensitive" your own self!

Guys, don't try to defend the game. This isn't about the game. This is about how you treat potential customers. If you don't treat your customers right, you don't deserve our money, as there are enough games out there that we're not going to run out of fun. Privateer doesn't have the monopoly on fun.

Now, in case folks haven't read the subtleties out of my description of the conversation, let me be a bit more detailed:

1) The wife goes up to the Privateer booth and addresses the one female there. (Most understanding audience, presumably.)

2) The Privateer woman doesn't get a chance to answer -- she's interrupted by a male to her right. This implies that the man is the one in charge at the booth.

I don't normally repeat myself, but it's worth doing so here: the guy acts like HE'S IN CHARGE.

(Now, it's worth noting that the two could be on the same level, and the guy was simply engaged in a really irritating guy habit -- that is, not letting gals talk. GM a game with guys and gals -- even ones you like, and who get along -- and you'll see this happen.)

3) The guy then proceeds to spout lots of marketing numbers at my wife, as if he's in the know (see one of my previous posts for numbers). He does not apologize, nor does he offer to bring it up at the next marketing meeting, or anything. (And I'm sure he could have -- I've done official demos for other companies before and knew who to contact with problems like this.)

This probably wouldn't be a big deal, but the guy's already controlling the other members of the booth. It didn't feel like he was a run-of-the-mill staff member.

(And if anyone cares, this happened on Friday between 3:30 and 5:00.)

Oh, and in interests of full disclosure: the games I've demo'd for were both CCGs. DoomTown (at a previous Comic Con, which was a gas), and MagiNation (small time).

So no conflicts of interest, there. ;)