"If you had a Time Machine how would you alter Waterloo" Topic

Grizzlymc

Guess you did misread the title. I suggest you get someone to read it for you, explain it to you if needed, and then you can post a reply that relates to the request. Quite easy really.

Captain Gideon

You do realise you have scared the hell out of some people attending this site by making this post. I think it was a good post but the same people are still having nightmares about Napoleon. And now that you've mentioned a time machine, well that will really rattle them. There are those who prefer to see him as a madman so they can sleep better, rather than question their own beliefs and bias. And if someone does invent a time machine, they know there is always going to be chance that someone might go back and help him win at Waterloo or even, dare I say it, bring him back to the 21st Century.

Care in the Community clearly isn't working.

We all know what happens when Napoleon travels back to the 2oth century. He pigs out on ice cream and takes over a water park.

Anyone here having nightmares about Napoleon? I did have an interesting dream last night, but it did not involve Napoleon;).

I am beginning to remember why I drifted out of wargaming for so long; it wasn't having children, neither was it the club being taken over by Wankhammer players; it was the overly intense, semi-autistic people with no dress sense, an inability to engage in normal human relationships, and appalling personal hygiene that seem such a feature of the hobby.

FFS people lighten up, this is an Internet discussion forum for grown men who play with toy soldiers; who cares if people wander off topic! If I want rigourous academic discussion where neither humour nor deviation from the topic is allowed, I will go to work tomorrow.

Could have sworn this was meant to be a thread related to Waterloo?????

Pompous Pratt. Matt.

Matt Finish

Try looking at the first post!!!

colinjallen

TOY SOLDIERS!!! You should depart this site forever, for such a blasphemy! They are Military miniatures. If you can't see the difference, then there's no hope for you.

Gazzola,
Why are your posts off-topic? You are neither responding to the OP's question nor engaging in relevant debate. Pot…..kettle…..black;).

Yep….toy soldiers:)

Gazzola, I don't think Napoleon would be very likely to respond to your advances to 'Come back to my place, my Emperor'.

colinjallen

I can't let somone insult wargamers, can I. And I am wondering why you like to repeat the phrase – I have a feeling it might be a case of projection, in that someone has said it to you, so you are taking it out on other wargamers – sad really

R Mark Davies

The Emperor! Coming to my house! I never thought of that. Wow, gotta get me a time machine – now!!!!

Gazzola,

I like you:). You make me laugh:)).

What is wrong with admitting that we play with toy soldiers? Perhaps some people have a need to dress it up as something else but that is what we are doing (unless we are playing with toy ships, tanks, planes etc).

Admittedly we play with them in a rather more complicated and realistic (there is another can of worms!) way than we did as young children, but we are still playing with toy soldiers.

How was what I said insulting wargamers?

colinjallen

There is no need to do research, make up rules etc, if you are playing with TOY SOLDIERS, which is why I prefer the term Military miniatures, because my 'TOY SOLDIERS' represent actual historical regiments, as I imagine most WARGAMERS miniatures do.

But it is only a bit of fun, so apologies if any offence taken. If you and others want to call them TOY SOLDIERS, that's fine by me. I'll continue to call them Military miniatures. So enjoy playing with whatever you play with.

Apologies to all because this is also being discussed on another thread.

Gazzola,
I rather think you are missing the point here; it is merely a matter of nomenclature, not the actual activity. I accept that I play with toy soldiers, you choose to call them military miniatures; I have no idea why you need to do that, but each to his own:).

San Dimas High School Football Rules! Yeah!

Gazzola,

Coming back to the original topic: The question at the top of the page is "If you had a time machine, how would you alter Waterloo?"

After 30+ other silly answers from others, I answered honestly, with direct reference to Waterloo.

Cdt Cpl Gideon then behaved like the European supervisor of an Irish referendum, in that my answer was not the answer he wanted, so I was to go away until I got the right answer (i.e. that I would help Napoleon win).

His responses display all the wit, humour, tolerance, intelligence and fanboy obsessiveness of a hormonal teenager and he therefore deserves to be mocked.

And I too play or wargame with toy soldiers/figures/models. 'Military miniatures' are small, oval portraits, usually painted on ceramic plaques in the days before photography, that were often given by officers to family or sweethearts as mementoes while they were serving abroad. Very collectible.

Ergh. That would make a terrible wargame peice. I prefer toy soldiers.

RMD

Not all of us teenagers are like a silly baby goose trying to find mama. That said, your comparison is spot on, the last time I saw such attitudes over nomenclature was when I played Warhammer!

I think the bickering over what our toys are called is odd, I remember playing a game of war hammer and I said that my opponents figure looks like a lion. I was swiftly corrected that it was a Chimera of the Empire, or something like that.

-Michael

Hi Guys …Great topic!!!
I've just joined and l'm a huge Napoleonic fan..
Now to answer the question seriously on "If l had a time machine, how would you alter Waterloo?" l'm a huge Waterloo fan and watched the 1970 movie which is superb..

Here is what l would really DO if l got there …

1. Arrive at the end of the Battle of Ligny and convince French commanders that l'm are a real prophet from the future with important Factual infomation. And that Napoleon must NOT divide his army and NOT be chasing Blucher. Tell him what will happen as it is better to have whole 120,000 army intact and it will serve him better at Waferloo than having the smaller 97,000 to deal with the defensive Wellington.
So he must keep Grouchy beside him at Waterloo and a bigger 120,000 strong on the 18th.

2. Advise all the French personnel that it is going rain very heavily overnight of 17th and 18th and that it would be imperative to place all cannons on higher ground the night before it rains but within range of Wellingtons main positions. And aim the cannons towards the open fields where large formations could be seen.
l would also state to Napoleon to AVOID bombarding/attacking Hougumont and La Haye Sainte Farms at ALL times. NOT worth wasting your army and vital ammunition and wasted cannonballs there.
So it is imperative to to stay away from the farmhouses ALL DAY.. and NOT attack it!!
Why? Because if he concentrate ALL his 120,000 strong forces on open field against vulnerable undefensive Anglo-saxons and begin to drive the Wellington back then the poor idle soldiers in the farmhouses will be panicking and routing and seeing all the the main french 120,000 army is further up the field near Mont Saint Jean chasing and slaughtering the British!!! Result: the small number in the farmhouses will be isolated and ALONE!

3. l would advise Napoleon to have an early night sleep and not worry of the outcome and keep him and the commanders in very jovial mood. l would state that rest is important being prophet of the future. l would make sure he has a proper good meal and give him some prescribed medication for his stomach ailments that l would have organized with my own doctor before the time machine trip.
l would tell him that he must stay alert for the whole day of the battle and NOT let Marshal Ney take command in his absence.

4. i would send in a small portion of infantry towards the the center of the field to trick Wellington into believing the attack is at the center, and THEN…l would move the rest of the 100,000 army on the extreme FLANK! Yes flank attack all the way , entering from far behind Hougumont farm and to move quickly and as quiet as possible! Moving as well parallel with the long road ditch to hit Wellingtons center at the crossroads. l would place skirmishers at the front with regular reports of Wellingtons hidden positions.
The element of shock and surprise and to inflict as much British causalities EARLY in the day is the idea!!

5. To notify the French to NOT charge any British Squares with cavalry, at ALL times! Calvary is to spared as much as possible to be used only for vulnerable weak britsh armies particularly when they running away in open field and don't have time to form squares.

6. Advise Napoleon to Attack very early in the morning around even 7 to 8 am after all men have had a good breakfast , and made sure that all men had an early night sleep the night huddled up together with as much cover as possible from the heavy rain. P.S: Cannons will be already placed the night before within distance Wellingtons center.

7. To make sure at all times that the Infantry, Calvary and Artillery are cordinating together at all times for the WHOLE day and under no circumstance are they to be seperated! The whole three army types increases more KNOCKOUT BLOWS when used together at same time.

8. By mid to late afternoon the French would have decimated huge numbers of the British and Allies to the point where they will running towards Brussels to which point l ask Napoleon to to have a small reprieve and regroup his whole 90,000 presumed large army at Mont Saint Jean.
Then quickly refresh his troops with water and some food if any.
Then the next strategy would be to form DEFENSIVE positions around Mont Saint Jean and wait for the Prussian to come!!
And then l would repeat the earlier 'surprise' and 'shock' tactics this time against Blucher's Army..
By that time most of the wounded and dying British would be crawling to Brussels and unable to regroup and leaving a shocked nervous Blucher on his own, to deal with a very large defensive French position!!!

RESULT: Very confident of the most Biggest Upset in Warfare History!!!It will be Napoleons most favorite surprise Victory that will be talk of History lectures and books right up to this day and beyond!!! With Wellington and Blucher retreating in massive defeats, it would only then leave only 2 major armies to confront later on which are the Russians and Austrians. But they would be so many days far away from Napoleon to trouble him. And if news got to the Allies that the British and Prussians suffered massive defeats at Waterloo, then would be a lot of bickering and nervousness and distrust between each Ally nation and wondering whether it might be better to sue for Peace than to suffer similar catastrophic defeats like the British and Prussians.
Also France was gradually conscripting more huge numbers of conscripts around that time which would be in Napoleons favor.

….There you go, that is what l would do in those couple of days..as well as chatting afterwards of the Aussie way of life down under…

These strategies are from playing so many Napoleonic computer games on the PC, particularly the Waterloo PC games,(winning of course as the French) and reading a few books about it.

Viva la Emperor

Aussie Mick from Down Under

"how would you alter Waterloo?"
I'd have strung the little up in 1814 so it wouldn't have been necessary.

Funny how characters from history manage to upset some people. The same people act as if they actually know the famous people from the past and that their feeble brains and bias give them the right to pass judgement. Sad really but I suppose it makes them feel better and important.

R Mark Davies

Glad you brought up the artistic side of the term Military Miniatures. They are indeed, items of beauty – just like wargaming military miniatures. Artistic and beautiful, unlike toys which are generallly made to be lost by, bent by, and thrown about by children. But if you see yourself as child playing with toy soldiers – no problem. Whatever makes you happy.

And I am sure you are aware that terms change over the years and sometimes items have the same term attached to them. Military Miniatures if you want to look at a nice picture and Military Miniatures if want to play a wargame. I don't see a problem with that, do you?

Aussie Mick

Good post and on topic. However, should you be able to go back in time and your advice is taken and the French defeat the British, then I doubt they would have needed to prepare to fight the Prussians, who would have probably done a quick u-turn. And had they done so, there would have been no titles published which tried to convince us Waterloo was a Prussian Victory. Waterloo would have been a technological victory.

In fact, in the spirit of this thread, I now wish to be known as Air Marshal Sir Hugh Mungus Lovetruncheon RAFVR(T) DFC ABH & Public Bar.

Mate, don't be modest – you left out your VD Bar 'n Scar.

Improperly dressed on parade and all that….

l would move the rest of the 100,000 army on the extreme FLANK! Yes flank attack all the way , entering from far behind Hougumont farm and to move quickly and as quiet as possible! Moving as well parallel with the long road ditch to hit Wellingtons center at the crossroads.

Thanks for this Mick – you have inadvertendly pointed out the flaws in armchair generalship.

Earlier on in this post Lord W was criticised by another gallant armchair warrior for 'forgetting' his detachment at Hal, placed there in case Napoleon tried to attack on the deep left flank – and here you are, perfectly logically, advocating the very same attack on the deep left flank!(which would have met a grisly end as it was itself outflanked by the Hal detachment and mashed up against Hougomont…)

But well done, that's Directing Staff solution No. 3!

I would have all the old Generals and Marshalls hung so that all those young men who died that day could go home to their families and live happy lives.

But then I'd have less things to wargame in the future.. Hmm!

My Favourite post to the original question so far was from Bottom Dollar.

Napoleon should've answered the question before the battle:

"Now what are we going to do if Nosey pulls that reverse slope thing?"

But the post that made my solo shoot from my nose was from R Mark Davies.

Care in the Community clearly isn't working

Aussie Mick,

what makes you think Napoleon would follow your advice any more than that of his seasoned generals, who moreover had faced Wellington on the field of battle? The flank attack was strongly recommended by them (and anticipated by Wellington, hence the importance he accorded to holding Hougoumont), but rejected out of hand by the Emperor who – uncharacteristically – wanted a frontal assault.

More generally – historical events tend to be the result of a myriad interacting factors, some known, others guessed at, and quite a few probably overlooked.

As I keep telling my son, computer games are entertainment, not historic scholarship. The same could be said of "what if" questions.

Musketier on the March

If the flank attack was anticipated by Wellington, then why do what your enemy anticpates you will do? In hindsight, of course, it might have worked better than the frontal assault.

But good question on would Napoleon take advice if Aussie Mick (or anyone else) travelled through time. I doubt any commander/leader would take advice from someone claiming to come from the future, unless he took something to prove it and it was something that was impressive, such as a machine gun or two? And a torch of course – gotta take a torch.

Aussie Mick,

Most of the French army was not in a position to do anything useful early on the 18th.

Also, have you thought about the time required to organize and carry out a flank march on that scale? By the time that it got going, the Prussians would be arriving with no 6th Corps to slow them down.

What makes you think that Wellington would be stupid enough to just sit on the ridge while Napoleon manouvered 100 000 men round his flank? He would either have pulled back, leaving your vast left hook attacking an empty position, or looked for a similar opportunity as at Salamanca; manouvering in the face of an enemy such as Wellington is not a bright idea.

If you were to go back, I would be very concerned for you safety if you addressed Napoleon with Viva la Emperor. As well as being incorrect French, you would have just implied that he was female.

What makes you think that Wellington would be stupid enough to just sit on the ridge while Napoleon manouvered 100 000 men round his flank? He would either have pulled back, leaving your vast left hook attacking an empty position, or looked for a similar opportunity as at Salamanca; manouvering in the face of an enemy such as Wellington is not a bright idea.

All quite true, but as I have hinted before, the force he had left at Hal to cover precisely this eventuality (without the benefit of a time travellor, presumably) would most probably have simply outflanked this force and crushed them up against Hougomont…

Quite brilliant, and all without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight….

Sparker

Only Brilliant because of the timely arrival of the Prussians remember – had they not come – then who knows what might have happened and what would have been said of Wellington's tactics?

If I remember rightly, Wellington was already sorting out a retreat route and praying for Prussians or night. Hardly a sign of a confident and clever commander, is it. Like Napoleon, he was a gambler and was betting on the Prussians or night coming to his rescue.

But, at the same time, and as with Salamanca, the French might have made further mistakes which he could have exploited, although personally, I think he would have done a runner, as he was forced to do so many times during the Pensinular War. By that, I mean do a runner to fight another day.

Apart from all that, how do we know that someone from the future did not go back in time and convince Wellington to stay on the ridge because help was on the way? I reckon it was one of your future relatives!

To describe Wellington's actions at Waterloo as being those of neither a confident nor clever commander is ludicrous.

Wellington would not have fought at the Waterloo position if he was not pretty certain that the Prussians would show up at some point in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

Even without them showing up, would Napoloen have been able to break the Allied army? Given the performance of him, his field commanders and, frankly, the French army on the day, I somewhat doubt it. Napoleon had to gain a crushing victory, although even that would probably not have saved his regime in even the medium term, while Wellington just had to still be on the ridge at nightfall.

If the 18th had ended with a battered Allied army still on the ridge, the Prussians threateningly somewhere off-stage to the east, and Grouchy having a pleasant dinner somewhere, Napoleon's situation, with a much weakened army, would have been untenable.

I have long believed that, by the time the French arrived in front of the Waterloo position late on the 17th, the campaign had been lost. Napoleon's chances of victory came on the 16th and the early morning of the 17th; for a range of reasons, neither chance was taken.

colinjallen

Yes, you could say the 1815 campaign had been lost due to earlier events. But if Wellington was the confident commander you say he was, why did he wish for night? As for the Prussians, he certainly HOPED some would come to his aid, which, luckily for him they did. He knew he would need them no matter how long he stayed on the ridge.

It is, of course, a what-if, if the Prussians had not come. I personally think Wellington, had he still managed to stay on the ridge, he may have retreated during the night, perhaps to fight elsewhere, as he did so often and so successfully during the Peninsular War. But during the Peninsular War he mentioned that he might have lost some battles, had Napoleon been there, so he knew who he was up against at Waterloo.

If the Brits had retreated and possibly sailed back to Britain, who knows what would have happened? Possibly another Leipzig or possibly another Austerlitz and Jena. So I guess it is best to stick with what did happen. And while some people will hope that someone who invents a time machine will go back and alter history, one way or another, I'm rather hoping they will go to the future and bring me back the winning lottery numbers. Thinks of all the Military Miniatures I could buy then! And already painted up to.

Gazzola,

His reason for wishing for night or the Prussians should be fairly obvious.

Night, if the Allied army was still on the ridge and functioning, would mean that Napoleon had failed and Wellington could then either pull back to another position or stay where he was and dare Napoleon to attack again the following day with the Prussians posing a growing threat.

The Prussian arrival would mean the inevitable defeat of Napoleon on the 18th.

There were two types of defeat open to Napoleon on the 18th:

1. Running out of time.

2. Being defeated in battle.

Both would have meant the end of his foolish, doomed enterprise.

Another Austerlitz or Jena could only have happened with the Napoleon, staff, French soldiers and opponents of 1805-06; another 1814 was far more likely, even if Napoleon, Ney and the entire French army had overcome their lethargy early on the morning of the 17th and smashed the Allied army before it could pull back from Quatre Bras.

Napoleon's only chance of retaining his throne in 1815 was through an agreement with the Allies before the fighting started; that was never going to happen.

The key reputational question should be how much of Napoleon's reputation can survive being out-thought, out-fought, defeated and routed in a battle of his own choosing. Wellington was worried because he wondered if the part of his plan which he could not directly oversee – the march and attack of the Prussian Army – was later than expected.

Wellington's plan worked in all particulars – I don't really see what the problem is. I guess it diverts our attention from Napoleon's failures and mistakes or presumes that Napoleon *should* have won – a view which shows the preferences of its adherents but not much else.

Regards

Whirlwind,

There will always be those who completely swallow the Napoleonic myth.

collinjallen

I think you are swallowing a myth in believing why Wellington was so desperate for the Prussians or night. You seem to prefer to think he was so clever and confident, which he obviously wasn't, otherwise, why did he sort out his escape route – for fun?

And perhaps both you and Whirlwind have fogotten about Grouchy or are you suggesting that the thought of Grouchy outflanking him had not entered Wellington's head? My personal thought is that, had the Prussians not arrived, Wellington would have retreated to another location or even all the way back to Britain – this matches his successful tactics during the Pensinular, when his retreats were all part of the game.

As for failures on the French side – of course there were failures – that is obvious to anyone – how else would Wellington and the Allies have won? And the failures started with the French troops marching to and fro from Ligny and not ending up on any battlefield on the day. But it seems you like to blame Napoleon for all the failures, even though he ordered the troops to Ligny and it was Ney, not Napoleon, who ordered them back. I suggest both you and Whirlwind have a good look in the mirror, pot black and all that.

think you are swallowing a myth in believing why Wellington was so desperate for the Prussians or night. You seem to prefer to think he was so clever and confident, which he obviously wasn't, otherwise, why did he sort out his escape route – for fun?

I can't beleive you said that Gazzola – any commander worth his salt will ALWAYS work out an escape route, to not do so would be highly irresponsible…

Of course Wellington made some mistakes, victory is about making less mistakes than your opponent, and he made far, far less mistakes than Napoleon, who's cardinal error was underestimating the enemy.

Wellington was never guilty of that, hence keeping one eye over his shoulder….

Sparker

I agree with you that Napoleon made more mistakes than Wellington, especially giving the wrong people such important commands and tasks.

As for Wellington, I think he believed he would have to retreat if the Prussians did not arrive. Okay, he may not have been desperate to sort out an escape route, but, as at Salamanca, had the French not made that gap he would have probably retreated, since he had already sent his baggage wagons to Cuidad Rodrigo. retreat was a tactic that worked well for Wellington and who knows, had he been forced to do so at Waterloo, which I think he would have been had the Prussians not come, then who knows what might or might not have happened.

It is a shame he didn't take on the Brits first and let one of his commanders sort out or hold up the Prussians, which I'm sure they would have been capable of doing. Then again, it would depend on who he gave that job to, I suppose, considering how bad they did behave. Napoleon at Quatre Bras would have been very interesting. But history is history and can't be changed, well, except on the wargaming table that is.

Gazzola,

I am not even going to grace your comments with a proper reply as I note that, yet again, you are performing your usual trick of claiming that people have said things that they have not and then arguing against them; the old "straw man" tactic.

Your stifle ratio really says it all.

Over and out.

collinjallen

You accuse people of swallowing 'the Napoleonic myth' then accuse them of playing tricks? What a load of rubbish! What's up with you? Me thinks you take things far too seriously or you are far too used to getting your own way? Debates are abuout agreeing and disagreeing, or agreeing to disagree, aren't they? But I suppose it might best for some people not to debate with someone who might disagree or have a different point of view. No hard feelings, I hope and none intended and certainly none taken.

R Mark davies

Nice cartoon. Is that before the Emperor returned in 1815?

Wellington new what he was doing. He planned for both outcomes by the looks of it.

I'd have to disagree, i think it's a good thing he tried to fight two armies at once. If he had been able to defeat them both separately it would have been horrorific. More years of senseless slaughter as he invades his neighbours And rebuilding his empire.

I think it's a shame he couldn't do the decent honourable thing a stay on his nice island, write memoirs and books of military instruction. He would probably have been allowed back once he was too old to be a threat… Of not to France but to Corsica….. But no. He couldn't face it. Too pigheaded to understand when he's finished. All those French boys who'd been spared the wars, and the pitiful few that made it through the last lot wasted for nothing.

… After the second round of butchery you'd have thought he'd do the other honourable thing…. 🔫💀💀

Guessing honour wasn't one of his strong points

A commander lacking confidence would not have stood in the first place.
Of course he was calling for night or Blucher. His forces had taken a pounding.

Maybe a digression, but I've always been puzzled that Wellington didnt have the Waterloo battlefield prepared a bit.

Its said that he looked over the ground and chose it earlier, and he certainly knew the potential value of fortification. Wouldnt a regiment, or even a few pioneers, have been able to fortify La Haye Saint (rather than burning the doors), maybe raise a couple of redoubts, at modest cost if not needed.