"Miniature Wargaming - Why does it bring you enjoyment?" Topic

That's it Grizz keep that ***-kissing up you're doing great.

Gazzola, back in the day they used to call that skulking :)

I just don't get why people can have so much difficulty admitting that they take a leisure time activity seriously. I've heard war gaming called "serious fun". What's wrong with that ? IMO, its the guys who get whipped on a regular basis who insist on saying "It's toy soldiering, nothing else. I love my toy soldiers!" :)

Damn, first the leash, now the oral stuff, how does he see through those curtains?

Bottom Dollar

I'll agree with the fun but I'm not sure how many wargamers are serious?

Gazzola,

How many take a game of chess seriously ? Only thing is, when you lose a game of chess, you can't say "It's just toy soldiering". Nevermind the fact that war gaming is about 10 times more FUN :)

Actually, i think most war gamers take the military history aspect more seriously than they do the "gaming" aspect of it. Which is why many are constantly investigating, revising and tweaking their game systems to reflect the evolution of their understanding.

That's one of the ENJOYMENTS of miniature wargaming. It's the practical application of historical knowledge. Not only can you know, but you can do as well. And the trying to know is half the fun. Can't do that with chess for sure.

Gazzola, I'm on your side. We play miniature war games, they play Army Men… they probaby prep for it with a round of "Guns" and chasing each other around the neigbhorhood. "Bang" "I got you" "No you didn't, I ducked"
----------------------

well done BD for throwing more fuel on the fire – as they say in the UK (along with 'toy soldiers' as opposed to the seemingly more American 'military miniatures') "you couldn't let it lie". I won't ask on what empirical basis you can say that those who say (as I do) 'toy soldiers' are playing 'Army Men', nor the basis of your other comment that 'its the guys who get whipped on a regular basis who insist on saying "It's toy soldiering, nothing else. I love my toy soldiers!" ' Since many Brits more than Americans (at least from the limited sample here and what my local gaming group say) seem to use the phrase toy soldiers, I suspect it's nothing to do with losing or with most Brits gettting whipped by an elite corps of military miniature gamers funded by the CIA ;-)

If your mother was a sewing machine,
and your father was a lawnmower,
it would take 13 pancakes to cover a doghouse,
because baseballs don't have feathers.

Hey. It makes as much sense as this toy/miniature debate that started on Page 2 of this thread.
I wouldn't be surprise if someone would argue ad nauseum that baseballs have nothing to do with pancakes.

But they do, you cant make a pancake without breaking baseballs – doesn't everyone know that.

Grizzlymc, that remarks just shows everyone that your parents were never a sewing machine or a lawnmower. Therefore, you would have had a more senseless answer!

GNREP8, if the Brits admit they use their toy soldiers as PIECES in HISTORICAL WAR GAMES … I can see some common ground in that explanation :)

Here ? "toy soldiers"… no,no…. miniatures. Yes, we all--most American war gamers--yes, we really need to maintain that distinction or we'd all really be up the creek. We'd never live it down and it WOULD be used against us :)

Just my opinion, of course.

Remember, generally speaking we here in the States live in the realm of the Super-Charged Female Post-Modern Warrior Caste who can do it all and more and will do it all and more. Things are, can and will be used against us… meaning men of the type who enjoy war gaming. I speak generally of course and as quickly as possible. If anything gets out, it won't be long before Oprah is running shows interviewing the wives of avid war gamers about how non-productive and detrimental it all really is. Oprah's first question will be "So, when did your husband start playing with TOY SOLDIERS? And why can't he stop? And how has it negatively impacted your quality of life? "

Ever since I was a kid, I loved toy soldiers. It is also my way of keeping alive the elder relative who taught me to love them.

Those are noble sentiments. Do you war game with your toy soldiers, Green Askari ?

BTW, as a reminder, this forum is called The Miniatures Page, not the Toy Soldiers Page.

**Groan** are you boys still at it…..bet you can`t reach 500 post
Yes BD we do, TMP

Actually they are 10 behind the Time Machine thread, but I am sure we could make it up with an Oprah appearance.

I must say, if calling them toy soldiers would annoy Oprah and those who sail in her, I will never change.

I think Toy Soldiers are real; Military Miniatures and just make believe. Or is it the other way around?

Hmmmm….that ought to cause this high brow thread to exceed the Time Machine thread.

John Tyson

I don't know about high brow thread – although I think it might have passed high over some people's heads?

I hope you do not really think that Toy Soldiers are real?
They are real toys, as Military Miniatures are real masterpieces, judging by some of the painting skills often employed.

Bottom Dollar

Yes, I agree, Wargamers do take wargaming seriously, otherwise they would just be playing with toys.

I think Chess might come from a military background. Well worth looking into.

I enjoy playing chess but not as much as Wargaming. Can't use canister in Chess and the rules won't let the knights charge straight at the enemy pieces, even when their flank is exposed.

I'm so confused?? I need the help of the true Connoisseurs.

link

classictoysoldiers.com

michtoy.com

toysoldierco.com

sdsoldiers.com

toysoldierhq.com

link

wmhocker.com

Are these real Toy Soldiers or make believe Military Miniatures? Or are they real Military Miniatures and make believe Toy Soldiers. I don't really know… It's all so confusing??

Life is so complicated…

Maybe I should go shoot my cowboy guns. Yeah. That'd help.

God bless,
John

I freely admit to people that I play with toy soldiers. Actually it goes something like this.

Them:"So what do you do for fun"

Me: "Oh I play wargames."

Them: (somewhat befuddled and reticent. "Is that where you go out in the woods with guns that shoot paint pellets."

Me; "No that's paintball. I did that with real bullets but it was in the army and a lot more exciting! No Wargames is setting up and playing battles with toy soldiers, only unlike the games of our youth in the sandbox these are best considered as "Playing Toy Soldiers in an an Adult way."

Them" (More slight befuddlement, but somewhat of an interest." How do you mean?"

Me:" Oh rather than pelting the soldiers with small rocks we use highly detailed and painted soldiers, based in historical or realistic formations and have complex rule books on how far a unit can move, what weapons it has to fire, what the hit rate is, casualties morale, all the things to give a simulacarum of war and battle."

Them: "Oh, that sounds interesting. I never heard of this."

Me: "Yeah it's a niche hobby but its a lot like model-railroading with all the model buildting, terrain making, painting etc. Lots of reading and historical research, but great fun. We do battles from the ancient world to the modern world, all with detailed collections of toy soldies. Some people call them military miniatures, but that sounds all too edible like miniature C rations-- I prefer toy soldiers."

Them: "Gee that's fascinating. When did you get involved in that?"

Me- "Oh about fifty years ago. Lotsa fun. My wife likes the hobby. She doesn't play but says it keeps me off the streets and out of the bars.

That was an actual exchange from a job intervew about a decade ago and I got the job.

I prefer to cut right to the chase and not pussy-foot around. Saves time.

I get far more interest and response form using the term toy soldiers which everyone knows than "military miniatures" which I have to explain and people say "oh yeah-Toy Soldiers." Start off with Military Miniatures and explaining how detailed and realistic things are and all the historical research that goes into it and it sounds like you're describing a deadly dull graduate history course. People know toy soldiers are fun, even girls know that from their dolls, (and I often describe toy soldiers as sort of a "man-doll")and everyone remembers the joy of playing with their toys when they were a kid. Using the phrase "Playing with toy soldiers in an adult way" also sounds far more intriguing than saying "I use military miniatures to simulate the battles of history and probe the interrelationships of tactics and strategy in an experimental environment to test tactics and strategy and do large amounts of research to make sure they are accurate and ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…..

Tell them you're going to fight a battle with toy soldiers and you're halway there to hooking them in. Works every time-- tell them about it in glowing simple terms, and if you see the spark behind their eyes and the crinkle around the brow, you're halfway there. Then invite them over to the next game, give them a wing to command, coach them along and you've got em.

And THAT's the real joy of gaming! When you introduce others to the hobby and they like it and it becomes a joy to them. Done this a dozen times and my best was on two seperate occasions when I converted two entire families to the game. One time this friend I met on the net was passing through and wanted to meet in person. That was ok, but she asked me a week before she was making the trip what I liked to do besides argue politics and religion and I told her about wargames. She had never heard about it before but thought it sounded neat, and wondered if I could set up a game for them. I did, and they were hooked. That was four years ago and at the time the 34 year old mom, her husband, and their nine year old son and 16 year old daughter immediately loved the game and were thinking of cancelling their trip to Europe to go to Historicon. Now, four years later they are still avid gamers, go to the conventions, have collections and the kids are making rival versions of a Harry Potter game! In the other case, we were at a part talking with some friends and the topic of hobbies came up. Told them the toy soldier spiel and immediately they were interested. Three weeks later, Mom, Dad,Daughters #1 and #2 (19 and 17) and son (15) were into the hobby. Daughter #2 is particularly fanatic. Went home and wondered if she could sew uniforms for her collection of Barbie Dolls.

They'll come if you make it sound like fun. They shirk if you make it sound like work.

Some of these people need to read more Paddy Griffith.

Who's Paddy Griffith? Will Paddy deconfuse my troubled life?

God bless,
John

OSchmidt,

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz….'s are in the eye of the sleeper.

"Three weeks later, Mom, Dad,Daughters #1 and #2 (19 and 17) and son (15) were into the hobby. Daughter #2 is particularly fanatic. "

O Schmidt, let me guess, you must be the Walt Disney of Toy Soldiering. No, seriously that's great. Can I ask what game you got them started on ?

Okay boys! Now we're even with the Time Machine post count. If we are really serious about wargaming, I know we can overrun them with our silliness.

Toys are played with, wargames are played, wargaming is too serious for wargaming with anything but Military Miniatures, and reading Paddy will straighten us all out. Come on lads! We can do it!!

God bless,
John

I probably haven't read enough Paddy. All I know is Paddy said something like typical engagement ranges were 80 yards and under in the ACW, but then forget to mention visibility in the Wilderness was 80 yards and less, if it was even that good. Go ahead. Call me a Paddy Pooper.

Ok guys lay off. This is getting ridiculous, leave Paddy alone.

You say toy soldiers I say Military Minaitures
Toy soldiers, Military miniatures
Toy soldiers, Military miniatures
lets call the whole thing off!

John Tyson and O.Schmidt

I think people are taking this far too seriously!

But if you say to a fellow wargamer you play with toy soldiers, they KNOW you mean you are playing with Military Miniatures, and play games based on set rules, on tables and with scale scenery, and that you have also spent a considerable amount of money and time researching and painting them up.

It is true that, if you say it to some non-wargamers, they often become interested and want to know more, but genereally they move away fairly quickly, sniggering as they do so and imagining you walking, if not running excitedly around Toyshops with bags of plastic toys in your hands.

Still, we soldier on, so to spreak, and long may we do so

Have we beaten the Time Machine count yet?

Forums are occasionally useful online communities where you can chat with kindred spirits but, more often than not, they are populated by idiots.

This forum is increasingly used by s who appear to think that the number of posts they make is related to the esteem in which they will be held, and for whom for whom repetition is a substitute for argument.

For those whose education is a far-away memory, or was simply inadequate, I would ask them to remember that even an inductive argument needs a couple of premises leading to a valid conclusion. Repetition of an opinion over and over again is not an argument, it is not persuasive and is really irritating. If you must post at all try to be either funny, interesting or informative.

Gazzola,

My friend, I assure you I don't take my pastimes seriously accept when it comes to safety (two of my three pastimes include firearms that can kill someone). My pastimes, Bird Hunting, Cowboy Action Shooting, Miniature Wargaming, are my respite from the things in life I must take serious. I'm just being absurd because of the silly trajectory this thread has taken away from the initial topic; wargaming enjoyment. But alas, such is the nature of forums. The same semantic silliness, psychobabble, character judgments, also happen on bird hunting and cowboy action shooting forums. You should have seen some of the silliness about calling the "guns" we use in our sports "weapons." Some folks really got irritated.

And as of this post…we are beating the Time Machine count! CHARGE!

God bless,
John

My wargaming, train, and military history hobbies were imprinted on me by my Dad. War veteran, lover of the Civil War and relics, buyer of my first train sets, and a small number of Britains and plastic ACW toy soldiers. I guess it rubbed off on me and I took it to new levels. Having those hobbies 40 years ago meant some isolation, a lot less money, and fewer enthusiasts at least for military history and wargaming. Plenty of train hobbyists, but it was almost solitary by nature.
Today we are blessed for choice and new technology and markets available. A great time to live despite the economy.

vonLoudon, I know what you mean brother. When I was in the US Army (1966-1989) I could find buddies that were interested in pushing my little soldiers around on a table. But after I retired from the Army, civilians just didn't seem interested, so for a few years my little soldiers stood idle. Then a retired US Navy commander went to work where I work and he was very interested in miniature wargaming. He became my wargaming buddy and reignited my wargaming activities. This forum just adds a little more spice and enjoyment to my wargaming. I'm thankful.

God bless,
John

John Tyson

As the first line in my post stated – 'I think people are taking this far too seriously'

As for bird shooting, couldn't do it – no challenge in shooting at things that can't shoot back. But shooting at cowboys, yeah, that's more like it!

Happy wargaming

XV Brigada

Sometimes people like to have fun, yer know. Try it some time and stop taking everyone and everything that is said, ever so seriously. It won't do your stress levels any good.

Conclusion to this would be for you to say 'Okay, I'll chill out. Have fun everyone.'

Happy wargaming to you.

Apologies, Paddy. I'm sure you understand.

Short answer: I enjoyed gaming with toy soldiers when I was a kid. Nowadays I still do.

basileus66

Ah yes, very nice and each to their own and all that. But do you play wargames as well, you know with research, rules, Military Miniatures and other people? (or Solo wargaming as opposed to playing alone with toys?)

Dear Bottom Dollar

I'm no Walt Disney but we can learn something from the rat that ate central Florida. The actual game- as far as rules-- is unimportnat. The selling of the hobby is dependent on the hobby's two great strengths. These are

1. Sense of Wonder.

2. Spirit of Play.

Sense of wonder is the WOWWWWW!!! NEAT!!!! factor. A good looking table top strewn with imaginative terrain, and with large armies of colorful troops simply blitzes the eye and inflames and arouses the subconscious imagination.

Spirit of play is a conspiratorial release of "the sky's the limit" and invites the initiate into the secret world of the insider, to indulge in possibilities and vicarious pleasure at the same time offering pure release.

The first one was a large 18th century battle in my imagi-nation realms, and used my own rules "Oh God! Anything But a Six." The Second one was a battle in the Renaissance using a version of the same rules.

I put on my standard convention floor-show for the nubies which starts with me saying after a few words of preface that I will take about 10 minutes to explain the game and the rules, and go through the first turn with them step by step, and then after that they won't need me except for an occasional clarification, and after the 2nd turn they will be playing like experts. This proved to be completely true with both families and they actually worked BETTER than with people who are in the games because they did not have to unlearn concepts from other games.

In each case the task was to keep it simple, keep it light, and get them handling figures and the game materials quickly-- you don't want to kill off that sense of wonder/spirit of play with long detailed explanations and difficult concepts. Here I admit OGABAS is tailored for the newbie, but it is by no means beer and pretzels and is quite complex in its working out once you get to understand the nuances. But it works just as well if you do not.

In both cases the success was, I think to let the players have their own head and make their own mistakes, and let them do what they wished. In the first case I was astonished at how quickly people who hadn't heard of wargames till 15 minutes before picked it up. Ater the first three turns, "Mom" was talking to "Daughter" asking if they should move troops of the second line to the front to reinforce a creaking first line. Daughter said "No Mom! Those troops are simply to delay, keep your eye on the important point. They have to get off this edge right here and our second line guards that! We are fine so long as we keep our eye on the victory conditions!" My-- using tactics-- I never saw THAT at a convention!

But the point is that the newbies were smothered with welcome, friendliness, and help, and the rules anddialogue were larded over with bits of self deprecating humor, farcial stories, and easy advice.

I have found that in every case it's not the game that sells the hobby, but the player introducing the hobby. In the second case, one point that helped was the sibling rivalry between daughter #1 and #2 where #2 wanted to ask "Can I make a deal with the other side to go over to them (I played the opposition in both cases) and betray my own side for money?" I noted "Oh my you DO learn very fast don't you!" #2 beamed, #1 scowled.

Of course OGABAS is a simple game. The whole thing is merely twelve pages single spaced, 12 point times Roman with 3/4" margins, with all rules, examples, charts, materials, illustrations and artwork in it (I don't allow any larger). But you don't want to bring Newbies into some of the more ponderous Nappy Horros the hobby has put out.

Thanks for the compliment, but it's really easy to interest people in the game.

I'm setting my sights on another family. This one is a co-worker. Shouldn't be difficult at all. Dad is a Civil War Re-enactor who knows of the hobby but is getting along in years and the cot and cold are starting to work on the joints. They also do Renaissance Faires, and Mom sews costumes (really gorgeous, elaborate detailed ones for these). Daughter and Fiance are into D&D and she is into re-enacting too. So it should be a piece of cake.

Always remember, the hobby won't sell itself. You have to sell it and that means you're selling yourself.

Use the natural strengths of the Hobby, Sense of Wonder, Spirit of Play, and keep it light and fun and fast. People love to play and they'll gull themselves into things if they think it is fun.

basileus66

I too still enjoy gaming with my toy soldiers. When I was 10 years old, my buddies and I would get down on the floor or in a sand box and play with our little men. Now at 65 years old, like you, I'm still at it. There is still the 10-year-old boy in me that just enjoys pushing my little soldiers around on a table. The body too old to get down on the floor anymore. ;-)

God bless,
John

O Schmidt

That's the spirit! Spread the word! I'll be doing the same when my youngest moves back to our area. He won't however, on any account, play with toys soldiers, but he will play with Military Miniatures.

OP – and the lamentatioins of their women.

DEar Gazzola

Thanks.

I'll admit my approach to gaming puts a lot of people off. That's because I have a very Marxist view of history (Grouch, not Karl). Rather than do a game on "The Raid on St. Nazaire" I'd rather do a game on "The Night they Raided Minsky's."

But I've found that people like fun, and good joke and now and then a sly double-entendre too. Rather than the staid historian or military expert, I prefer to take as my model the barker at the carnvial side-show.

All in all it doesn't matter so long as you can get people interested in the hobby. That's the most delicious part of it.

I've always enjoyed the whole temptor thig.

I remember once when I was playing AD&D and for my contribution to refreshments I bought two huge (KFC sized) buckets of ice-cream bon-bons. One of the women in the group made a big point of saying she wouldn't have any. Towards the middle of the night brought out a bucket and people started eating it. By halftime the woman, call her Jane, was mainlining the things. I smiled and said "Ummm …Jane… and pointed at the bucket while she was just about to pop another one into her mouth. She looked at it looked at me, and turned and said… "OOOOOoooohhhhh you ARE the devil aren't you!"

Ah yes--

The Lady,
The Tree,
The Apple
And Me.

My best work.

Gazzola

My figures are toy models. Nothing more. I like to push them over a tabletop; and to imagine that I am a mighty warrior or clever general. That's all. I don't like to take my hobby seriously. It's my hobby, damm it, and I do take it how the hell I want. And NOBODY has the right to tell me, or even imply, that my approach to my hobby is "unproper".

"BTW, as a reminder, this forum is called The Miniatures Page, not the Toy Soldiers Page."

Did I step into something here?

Green Askari,

"Did I step into something here?"

Don't put your nose too close to the stuff that's on your shoe!!

;-)

God bless,
John