"Miniature Wargaming - Why does it bring you enjoyment?" Topic

I was away for a week and did not get to respond to an earlier section.

No, I was not making fun or denigrating footbal spectatorship or baseball spectatorship has a hobby. Anyone can have any hobby that they wish. Depending on your viewpoint all hobbies are silly and stupid. I was, in my posts simply giving an example of how, when a wargamer is insulted or ridiculed for his hobby of playing war games (with toy soldiers or military miniatures, whichever you prefer) there were rejoinders to our tormentors.

One could argue that all hobbies are silly simply from the standpoint that you invest resources into it and get nothing in return. Here they would argue you invest money into it and get no money out, or work into it and no remuneration. Obviously the people who would argue this would devalue the emotional and personal return.

This is illustrative from the point of view of inversion. I for example know nothing about football-- I don't even know how many baskets make a home run, nor do I care. All sports, except ones like fencing, gymnasitcs, equitation and the like, are perfectly worthless in my calculus of value- but that's me. However, persons are free to engage in these hobbies as spectator sports as they desire. The crux comes when those who denigrate my hobby advance and laud their own as being somewhat better. That is when the remarks I gave example of come out.

The point is the impulses "to hobby" can vary from person to person and each has his own "hobby horse" as did Uncle Toby in Tristam Shandy.

I also remember WAY back in the 60's when wargaming was a tiny, itsy-bitsy, niche sub-hobby of the collecting hobby (which frankly and forthrightly called them toy soldiers) and when they (in the incarnation of the MFCA (Model Figure Collectors of America) derided and castigated the hobby as silly and stupid and a bunch of grown men playing with toy soldiers, that the wargamers purposefully worked up the term military miniatures to avoid the stigma of being toy soldiers.

But, as I said, it doesn't matter. Call them toy soldiers, military miniatures, or rubber-baby-buggy-bumpers. They remain the same thing in form, essence, function, and use.

My interest in Wargaming stems directly from my interest in military history and service in the army.
I am not especially into the whole modelling and making the board look great etc (though hats off to those who are better at this aspect than me), and much more inclined to use miniatures as 'counters' or 'markers' etc. All I really want them to be able to show is the position of a given unit on the battlefield. Luckily, the periods and scales I am interested in, units are pretty much interchangeable to anyone but a pedant with a magnifying glass.

At the risk of opening that can of worms yet again, I am interested in representing historical tactics and historical situations as closely as possible. I am not saying that I am thus able to 'simulate' anything, but my home grown rules do – I think – allow me to play out 'what ifs' with reasonable plausibility. And if they don't, then I simply tinker with them again.

I like miniature wargaming for this sort of thing as a luddite like me could never play about and experiment with such things on a PC (though I enjoy playing PC-based waargames, I could never in a million years write or modify one). In miniature wargames, however, one can simply agree a house rule or special rule / extraordinary exception as required.

The major part of this, though, is playing with others who have the same goals: that is, to explore battles and what ifs, rather than wanting to 'win'. As soon as a wargame become focused on winning, in my opinion, any chance of even attempting to look at reality goes out of the window.

But the real beauty of wargaming is that we can each take what we want from it and tailor it to suit our own wants and preferences.

"But the real beauty of wargaming is that we can each take what we want from it and tailor it to suit our own wants and preferences."

Yes, it is the DIY aspects that really appeal to me. There aren't many commercial games that I haven't modified in one way or another, I've even hacked computer games where my skills are up to it.

All to let me simulate (however imperfectly) historical battles using toy soldiers:)

OSchmidt

In my opinion, I don't think that the term Military Miniatures derived from a want to avoid the stigma of toy soldiers, but more to seperate them from toy soldiers.

I consider toy soldiers as toys for children, while Military Miniatures are for adults. The research, painting rules etc, seperate their usage from toy usage.

And toy soldiers, that is, those played with by children, are certainly not employed in the same way as our toy soldiers/military miniatures are employed, apart from allowing us to have fun and play games.

But that's just my opinion, nothing else – no insults or abuse intended – and I will happily wargame with those who consider and call them toy soldiers.

Toy soldiers as I see them are the plastic soldiers that you bought/buy at a toy store,which is what I used to do when I was younger and played with them in the backyard.

The painted figures I use on the table are to me Historical Gaming Miniatures.

Also there's a difference between toy soldiers and Gaming miniatures.

With toy soldiers you can toss them around and in essence abuse them,and for the most part nothing really would happen with them.

With gaming miniatures which are more fragile than toy soldiers,if you drop them or other things they would break and become useless.

My two cents.

O Schmidt

It's two baskets that make a homerun.

Also there's a difference between toy soldiers and Gaming miniatures.

With toy soldiers you can toss them around and in essence abuse them,and for the most part nothing really would happen with them.

With gaming miniatures which are more fragile than toy soldiers,if you drop them or other things they would break and become useless.

My two cents.
-----------------
though that wouldn't apply to ones featured in Toy Soldier & Model Figure Magazine
toy-soldier.com
or by King & Country to pick one company of many
kingandcountry.co.uk

GNREP8 I'm only talking about the Toy soldiers I knew when I was young.

Re the OP

I like to play with toy soldiers.

The spectacle, the fighting, the lamentation of the women, I can get from total war.

But I like playing with toy soldiers.

Oh, and poking sleeping dogs.

I guess I like it because I was exposed to it a very impressionable age (12 or 13) by a very fanatical wargamiming neighbor and as an energetic, enthusiastic young lad I was all in. It helped develop in me a love of history and all things military, and is probably at least partially responsible for my 26 year (and counting) Army career. I love collecting, researching, painting and organizing my troops. Then fighting battles with them. For me, at the end of the day it's just NEAT. Other people's opinions be damned. Call them Military miniatures or Toy Soldiers, doesn't matter. I just call 'em my figures or even my Guys.

I guess what I'm saying is that at the end of the day it's just entertainment, and like sports, ultimately it's irrelevent who wins and loses. It just doesn't matter (Blasphemy I know, sorry sports fans). It's supposed to be fun,and due to that fact I don't get all worked up about what someone thinks of my hobby (or calls it), because my self-worth is not bound up in my hobby. I'm pretty sure that anyone that knows me well wouldn't write me off even if they thought it very odd that I was a grown man who "played with toy soldiers". I think that the rest of my character trumps that single aspect.

Anyway, great to be with you guys here on TMP, I've learned a lot (and had some good chuckles)just in the short time I've been here. And I look forward to more.

Dan

Blackhorse,

I think your post pretty much sums it up.

One other aspect that brings me enjoyment is introducing my children to wargaming and seeing them start to understand it's delights.

colinjallen

That's a a very interesting post you made there.
…enjoyment is introducing my children to wargaming and seeing them start to understand it's delights…
So you were not introducing them to playing with toy soldiers? It is just a classic case of you, as a wargamer, separating playing with toy soldiers to wargaming, as I'm sure your children would have already known how to play with toy soldiers. Thanks for proving my point and please believe there was no insults or abuse intended with this post.

Blackhorse MP

Vey good post but I guess to fellow wargamers the term toy soldiers does not matter, as many have stated in their posts, because they all know the term means Military Miniatures. However, non-wargamers when they hear the term, will probably think we all play with plastic toy soldiers on the floor going bang, bang!

And I wonder how many would be willing to walk around wearing badges saying I play with toy soldiers, not many I'm sure. But of course, it does not matter what non-wargamers think, we can all live with that, as we have been doing for years.

But I'm just getting a little worried now that this website might consider changing its name from The Miniatures Page to The Toys Page! So perhaps we should end this thread as quickly as possible?

Happy wargaming to you.

Never has so much been read into a post that was not in it! Talk about making assumptions!

Gazzola, give it a rest man, your total obsession is really showing through! You are like one of those annoying little dolls that just says the same thing time after time after time.

Gaz,

If nothing changed here at TMP but the name, would you stop coming here if they changed it to the Toys Page? I wouldn't, BECAUSE I LIKE IT. It's not like it's some pedophile site or something that we need be ashamed of. I would absolutely wear a t-shirt that said "I PLAY WITH TOY SOLDIERS" if need be. Now admittedly probably not to the single's bar on a Saturday night, but I would because as I stated in my earlier post, anybody that I care about wouldn't knock me for it and I'm not overly concerned with what society in general thinks of me. I sleep pretty well at night (in my jammies with the feet attached, BTW), and I guess that's my final point.

Now let's put this sucker to bed…:)

p.s. Actually wearing that t-shirt to the bar might not be a bad idea; bound to be a conversation starter, and might even encourage a lass or two to see if they could get me to expand my horizons by giving me something else to "play" with. Hmmm…

I just ordered one of these:

link

If I knew Gazzola's address I would have bought him one too:).

Colin,

I may have to get one just to test out my theory…

Blackhorse,

I never got to try it in a singles bar (the only singles bar around here seems to be inhabited solely by men with very short hair and very tight T-shirts) but carrying a young baby in a chest pouch works wonders;).

colinjallen

Great T-shirt. Do you know if they do any with an image of a Napoleonic Miniature instead of a plastic toy soldier? I would definitely buy one! But I can see why you would buy that particular one. A shame it didn't include the words Bang! Bang! Perhaps you can suggest it to them.

It sounds like Gazzola's record has got scratched again…..yawn!

BlackhorseMP

Good point and yes, I probably would still attend this site. But that's because I know a lot of wargamers come here who play with Military Miniatures.

The T-shirt could go three ways. Either women would think it cute and want to mother you, or they would consider you as a possible babysitter, or they would keep well clear of you. Do let us all know if you dare to try it but I suggest you beware of women with T-shirts with My Little Pony on it.

Yep, I agree, time to end the matter. Been fun actually.

colinjallen

Sorry, did I touch a nerve again? I must stop doing that. Bang, bang! oops, sorry, it slipped out.

But, as BlackhorseMP suggests, time to end the merriment? A happy wargaming to you. (or toy soldiering, whatever you prefer!)

Gazzola,
Touched a nerve? Not at all. You do not have that ability;). Anyway, I must get back to varnishing some rather nicely painted toys that I will be wargaming with on Sunday.

Have fun with your life;)

Umm … why the upper case abuse? Shouldn't Military Miniatures be military miniatures?

The only thing worse would be Military Miniature's.

colinjallen

I will and I hope you have some fun as well. And stop laughing about my mistake on the other thread!

Arteis

Please give the little guys the respect they are due!

(but seriously, relax, there is no hidden agenda to my putting a capital letter at the beginning of a word)

military miniatures – there ya go – better Now? Oops, sorry, that one slipped out.

In my house, my toy soldiers/miniatures get called "little chaps".

And no way would I wear that, or any other t shirt, in a singles bar – Mrs Peeler would have my guts for garters :)

Peeler

The sad thing is that some people attending this site would wear them, not for the sake of wargaming, not because they are proud to be wargamers, but because it might offer them the desperate hope of attracting some female attention. Very sad really, but there ya go. Funny old world, in it?

Gazzola,

You are either:

1. Completely lacking a sense of humour

or

2. Desperately thick

Of course, you could be both;).

colinjallen

What's up? You had a bad day or something? And one has to have a sense of humour to read and put up with your posts! Chill out man!

Ditto,

Shhhh! You're gonna get Gaz started again.

I would like to see GAZ & colinjallen to fight a wargame.

Gazzola,
Today is your special day; enjoy it immensely:).

Hammerhead

Wouldn't work. For a start, I would not be able to put up with him shouting bang! bang! for over an hour and that's before the game started!

Ditto the Abdominal Snowman

Tim's Toys sounds rather cute. But wargamers are free to call their figures whatever they want. I don't have a problem with it.

But I was suprised at how many call them toy soldiers, or should I say, call them toy soldiers on this website – who knows what they really call them away from here?

So my last word on this topic is to wish you many years of happy wargaming with whatever you wargame with, be it toy soldiers, little chaps or Military Miniatures.

colinjallen

Cheeky! But no, my special day is few days on actually. I just hope no one I know sees this website otherwise I might end up getting a lot of toys for presents instead of books or miniatures. I've had to keep telling them that grown ups do attend this site, honest, they just act like children some of the time.

Happy wargaming to you. And I don't mean that as an April fool joke either.

colinjallen & Co

Sorry, the topic should be dead and buried now but I could not resist after what I found when I was admiring Perrys new miniatures. Went on their page and guess what they state in Terms and Conditions, Goods section -

our products ARE NOT TOYS

Great minds, eh!

Gazzola, I'm on your side. We play miniature war games, they play Army Men… they probaby prep for it with a round of "Guns" and chasing each other around the neigbhorhood. "Bang" "I got you" "No you didn't, I ducked"

Interesting talk, new product info, modeller advice and pics, and you can actually learn something on many subjects …

Legion 4

It's called fun. And I didn't see you add anything interesting or anything people can learn something from? bit silly to accuse people of something then do the same yourself, don't ya think?

Talking of new products, the new Perry painted miniatures shown on the home page look great, don't they? I almost felt like going up a few scales when I saw them. I can imagine them being a bit pricy though. What do you think?

Need a few more posts, we are falling behind the time machine thread.

That's it Grizz keep that ***-kissing up you're doing great.

Gazzola, back in the day they used to call that skulking :)

I just don't get why people can have so much difficulty admitting that they take a leisure time activity seriously. I've heard war gaming called "serious fun". What's wrong with that ? IMO, its the guys who get whipped on a regular basis who insist on saying "It's toy soldiering, nothing else. I love my toy soldiers!" :)

Damn, first the leash, now the oral stuff, how does he see through those curtains?

Bottom Dollar

I'll agree with the fun but I'm not sure how many wargamers are serious?

Gazzola,

How many take a game of chess seriously ? Only thing is, when you lose a game of chess, you can't say "It's just toy soldiering". Nevermind the fact that war gaming is about 10 times more FUN :)

Actually, i think most war gamers take the military history aspect more seriously than they do the "gaming" aspect of it. Which is why many are constantly investigating, revising and tweaking their game systems to reflect the evolution of their understanding.

That's one of the ENJOYMENTS of miniature wargaming. It's the practical application of historical knowledge. Not only can you know, but you can do as well. And the trying to know is half the fun. Can't do that with chess for sure.

Gazzola, I'm on your side. We play miniature war games, they play Army Men… they probaby prep for it with a round of "Guns" and chasing each other around the neigbhorhood. "Bang" "I got you" "No you didn't, I ducked"
----------------------

well done BD for throwing more fuel on the fire – as they say in the UK (along with 'toy soldiers' as opposed to the seemingly more American 'military miniatures') "you couldn't let it lie". I won't ask on what empirical basis you can say that those who say (as I do) 'toy soldiers' are playing 'Army Men', nor the basis of your other comment that 'its the guys who get whipped on a regular basis who insist on saying "It's toy soldiering, nothing else. I love my toy soldiers!" ' Since many Brits more than Americans (at least from the limited sample here and what my local gaming group say) seem to use the phrase toy soldiers, I suspect it's nothing to do with losing or with most Brits gettting whipped by an elite corps of military miniature gamers funded by the CIA ;-)